Supreme Court Votes to overturn Roe v Wade Draft Shows.

Author: Reece101

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#211
Athias
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@imdancin
What is your family concept?
Simply put, a composite of individuals functioning as a unit. In my childhood, that would've been my mother, father, I and my eight siblings. Parents would assume the role of incorporating their own experiences in educating their children, rather than simply being glorified custodians  and relying on public schooling or television to be de facto surrogate "parents." The bond of the parents--particularly the mother and father--I believe is crucial--using my own experience as well as from what I've read--is essential in the psychological development of their children. And part of said bond, between mother and father, is sex.

You indicated abortion might not be immoral.
No, I didn't. I've specified that certain methods of abortion are immoral, but not the concept in and of itself--i.e. expelling a zygote/embryo/fetus from one's womb.

But your list is all over the place.
Yeah, that was on purpose.

I won't even address some of the things on that list. They are not in the same category as abortion.
I had no such expectation.

What is abortion? It is the premeditated killing of a living human being.
Who or what is doing the "premeditated" killing?

To do so would be admitting that the unborn is a person. They can't do that.
You have a point, here. I've always criticized the so-called pro-choice position in its attempts to diminish the existence of the zygote/embryo/fetus by stating things like, "it's not human" or "it's not a life," etc. ZYGOTES/EMBRYOS/FETUSES ARE HUMAN BY DEFINITION. HUMAN DEVELOPMENT STARTS AT FERTILIZATION. BIRTH (NATURAL--IN SOME CASES ARTIFICIAL--EXPULSION FROM THE WOMB) DOES NOT DECIDE "HUMANITY" ANYMORE THAN ABORTION (CHOICED EXPLUSION) WOULD.

The fact that you can't admit that this is absolutely barbaric is unbelievable.
And since when have my arguments been subjected to your incredulity?

I can't wrap my head around your kind of logic.
What do you need help understanding?

You stand up for toothpaste but sit and do nothing while the slaughter continues. 
Nice one, ethang.
#212
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@Athias
Sorry its taking so long to answer back…just finished radiation for breast cancer yesterday and have been feeling a bit under the weather. 

“Simply put, a composite of individuals functioning as a unit. In my childhood, that would've been my mother, father, I and my eight siblings. Parents would assume the role of incorporating their own experiences in educating their children, rather than simply being glorified custodians  and relying on public schooling or television to be de facto surrogate "parents." The bond of the parents--particularly the mother and father--I believe is crucial--using my own experience as well as from what I've read--is essential in the psychological development of their children. And part of said bond, between mother and father, is sex.”

Wow 8 kids…they had their hands full. I totally agree with you about schooling. I believe kids should be taught how to learn and search for meaning as a life skill and that means seeing all sides and being exposed to different issues especially concerning history. Television programing is a terrible source of education. Like you I believe that the bond a child has with a mother and father is crucial for the child’s well-being psychologically like you said. I agree that sex is a HUGE part of a marriage but agape love is number one. Should something medically go wrong with either one of them and sex is no longer an option….love will cover everything. 

“No, I didn't. I've specified that certain methods of abortion are immoral, but not the concept in and of itself--i.e. expelling a zygote/embryo/fetus from one's womb.”

Guess I misunderstood. So I got your concept of family, could you share your position on abortion? What methods are immoral? When should abortion be available? etc


“Who or what is doing the "premeditated" killing?”

A woman makes an appointment to have the abortion done. She thinks about options….and then she pays the money to have the life inside her killed. That is pre-meditation. The doctor kills it, that too is premeditated. 

“What do you need help understanding?”

How someone who admits to the humanity of the unborn, that it is a living human being….and then say killing it for any reason and at any time is ok.

What is ethang ??? 
#213
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@imdancin
What is ethang ??? 
#214
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@Reece101
“Yes, I like aborting the unborn for the hell of it. You got me. 

So you would like to subjugate all women/girls to carry through pregnancies regardless of circumstances? 

State your full position.”



I would like women to take responsibility for their own actions and what damage they cause, and quit blaming others for the careless decisions they make. Unless it is rape no one can be blamed for pregnancy other than the woman. She is the one who says yes to sex and all that entails. And unless she is a complete idiot everyone knows birth control methods can fail. The chance is HERS to take. She invites the man/sperm to enter her body. Birth control should be her responsibility because todays society says she owns her body and she has the ultimate decision to do whatever she wants with it.

As for abortion…I believe as a Christian that we are made in the image of God and that He knew us before we were in the womb. I believe that science states clearly that a new human life starts when fertilization takes place. At that time it is a unique human being that is not a part of its mother but lives in her womb as she supports and protects it. I believe every life in the womb deserves personhood and should have rights under our laws that protect them from being murdered. In the very rare instance when a mother is dying than every attempt should be taken to save the child by taking it early.  
Guttmacher Institute a pro-choice think tank says less than 1% of ALL abortions are done because of rape, incest and the health of the mother. 99% of all abortions are done for social reasons. 

Why because a woman is raped does her child deserves less because his/her mothers was violated? Do two wrongs make  right? If you walked into a nursery full of kids and you were given the task of picking out the one whose mother was raped….do you think you could do it? Tell me why that child would have deserved death?

Why can't you without any humor...state your position on abortion?
#215
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@3RU7AL
Sorry I do not get it, could you explain please?
#216
Athias
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@imdancin
Sorry its taking so long to answer back…just finished radiation for breast cancer yesterday and have been feeling a bit under the weather. 
Sorry to hear/read that.

Wow 8 kids…
Nine.

I agree that sex is a HUGE part of a marriage but agape love is number one. Should something medically go wrong with either one of them and sex is no longer an option….love will cover everything. 
My description wasn't intended to exclude any other aspect of marital/parental relationships. I only mentioned that sex was part of it.

Guess I misunderstood. So I got your concept of family, could you share your position on abortion?
A prospective pregnant female has the right to expel the zygote/embryo/fetus from her womb without legal repercussion.

What methods are immoral? When should abortion be available?
Any method which primarily harms the zygote/embryo/fetus before expulsion. Of course such counter-methods are limited (e.g. suction aspiration method.) And since we're discussing "rights," it should always be available.

A woman makes an appointment to have the abortion done. She thinks about options….and then she pays the money to have the life inside her killed. That is pre-meditation. The doctor kills it, that too is premeditated. 
How is it killed?

How someone who admits to the humanity of the unborn, that it is a living human being….and then say killing it for any reason and at any time is ok.
Because it's important to acknowledge what "kills" or how the zygote/embryo/fetus is "killed." The underdevelopment of the zygote/embryo/fetus renders it inviable outside of its mother's womb. What is the deference between a zygote/embryo/fetus and a newborn baby? The phase in which it is developing. Its inviability is the primary reason it dies. Furthermore, the mother's womb belongs to her. How much that zygote/embryo/fetus needs it survive neither qualifies nor modifies its mother's prerogative. This is important: the mother does not owe her child anything. The mother gifts it. And when you understand the reason that is, you'll understand the reason her carrying a pregnancy to term is subject to the decision of no one else but hers.

What is ethang ??? 
You?
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#217
Reece101
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@imdancin
I would like women to take responsibility for their own actions and what damage they cause, and quit blaming others for the careless decisions they make. Unless it is rape no one can be blamed for pregnancy other than the woman. She is the one who says yes to sex and all that entails. And unless she is a complete idiot everyone knows birth control methods can fail. The chance is HERS to take. She invites the man/sperm to enter her body. Birth control should be her responsibility because todays society says she owns her body and she has the ultimate decision to do whatever she wants with it.
“I would like women to take responsibility for their own actions and what damage they cause, and quit blaming others for the careless decisions they make.”  I doubt you’re a woman. 

I don’t think anyone denies it’s a woman’s responsibility if she gets pregnant (rape or faulty contraceptives not included).
This is surface level stuff that an incel or mgtow would say.

You call getting pregnant “damage” as if it’s a vase you break at a store that you have to pay for. Is this corrrect? Doesn’t sound very pro-life. More punishment than anything. I would say having to go through abortion is punishment enough for most women. 

As for abortion…I believe as a Christian that we are made in the image of God and that He knew us before we were in the womb.
This will open up a whole other can of worms which I don’t feel like going into.

I believe that science states clearly that a new human life starts when fertilization takes place. At that time it is a unique human being that is not a part of its mother but lives in her womb as she supports and protects it.
Calling a zygote human life (from a “pro-life” stance) doesn’t bring anything to the table other than the wishful ability to ignore all arguments. 

I believe every life in the womb deserves personhood and should have rights under our laws that protect them from being murdered.
There are already laws th

In the very rare instance when a mother is dying than every attempt should be taken to save the child by taking it early.  
Guttmacher Institute a pro-choice think tank says less than 1% of ALL abortions are done because of rape, incest and the health of the mother. 99% of all abortions are done for social reasons. 
Nothing about economics? 

Why because a woman is raped does her child deserves less because his/her mothers was violated? Do two wrongs make  right? If you walked into a nursery full of kids and you were given the task of picking out the one whose mother was raped….do you think you could do it? Tell me why that child would have deserved death?
1. It’s up to the mother.

2. There’s a difference between a “child” that lacks a developed nervous system and one that is born. 

Why can't you without any humor...state your position on abortion?
Abortions should become progressively rarer further along in the pregnancy it is. Which is the current situation. Don’t 80 something percent of abortions happen within the first month or two? 
#218
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@imdancin
Sorry I do not get it, could you explain please?
Athias seems to think you are presenting arguments similar to those of a former debateart member, Ethang5
#219
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@imdancin
I believe every life in the womb deserves personhood and should have rights under our laws that protect them from being murdered.
from my perspective this is the same "right to self-ownership" and "right to medical privacy" as the fight over MANDATORY vaccines
(IFF) "life (and the rights of citizenship) begins at conception" (THEN) miscarriage = manslaughter (AND) in-vitro fertilization = murder

AND,

personal privacy and medical privacy goes out the window completely

(IFF) "life (and the rights of citizenship) begins at conception" (THEN) every single CONCEPTION must be REGISTERED WITH THE STATE which would basically make it mandatory for all women to immediately report a positive pregnancy test in order to receive a "(pre)birth certificate"
#220
Athias
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@3RU7AL
Athias seems to think you are presenting arguments similar to those of a former debateart member, Ethang5
Not "seem"; suspect. First, and this is VERY IMPORTANT, I start off with an assumption. Second, I deliver that assumption with confidence--almost to the point of feigning psychic abilities. Last I gauge the response to the assumption and determine whether or not I'm still confident in my assumption. And boy, I gotta tell ya: I'm still confident, old friend.

On a less jovial note, it's more than just the arguments; it's the mannerisms as well which lead to my assumption. I don't mind being embarrassingly wrong about this. But I've convinced myself that every debater has a fingerprint. And I've processed said fingerprints in my memory. Actually, there are a number of members here I suspect of being "others," whether they are banned members, members seeking reinvention, or relics from debate.org.
#221
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@Athias
and contrary to my impression of the general consensus here

but i strongly believe everyone deserves "a clean slate"
#222
Athias
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@3RU7AL
and contrary to my impression of the general consensus here

but i strongly believe everyone deserves "a clean slate"
Well put.
#223
Bones
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@imdancin
He's this chump who I humiliated and destroyed it was more ruthless than Ben Shapiro "DESTROYING" people. 
#224
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@3RU7AL
Not necessary if there were no abortion mills where women could go to kill their unborns.
#225
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@imdancin
Not necessary if there were no abortion mills where women could go to kill their unborns.
Benjamin Franklin wrote a detailed guide on how women can "induce miscarriages" at home

Every Man His Own Doctor: The Poor Planter's Physician.
This medical handbook provided home remedies for a variety of ailments, allowing people to handle their more minor illnesses at home, like a fever or gout. One entry, however, was "for the suppression of the courses", which Farrell discovered meant a missed menstrual period.

"[The book] starts to prescribe basically all of the best-known herbal abortifacients and contraceptives that were circulating at the time," Farrell said. "It's just sort of a greatest hits of what 18th-century herbalists would have given a woman who wanted to end a pregnancy early."

"It's very explicit, very detailed, [and] also very accurate for the time in terms of what was known ... for how to end a pregnancy pretty early on."
#226
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@imdancin
Not necessary if there were no abortion mills where women could go to kill their unborns.
also, do you happen to have any strong opinions about in-vitro fertilization ?
#227
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@Reece101
“I would like women to take responsibility for their own actions and what damage they cause, and quit blaming others for the careless decisions they make.”  I doubt you’re a woman.”

I am a woman. I am 66 years old and have birthed two children. I also have two grandchildren. Have been married to the same man for 41 years. I had an abortion when I was 19. So let me tell you that I know physically and mentally what comes with knowing you killed your child. A fe years back I worked with the group, Silent No More, to share my abortion story. I am being honest here and would never deceive anyone into thinking that I am not what I appear to be online. I have had medical issues lately, breast cancer and have had a lot of time at home during recovery. Thought sharing and debating online would be fun since I have the time. I have not been posting that long and am still confused about how the site works.  
 

“I don’t think anyone denies it’s a woman’s responsibility if she gets pregnant (rape or faulty contraceptives not included). 
This is surface level stuff that an incel or mgtow would say.”

I think you would be surprised at the low level of knowledge a lot of woman have about their own reproductive system, also fetal development. I worked at my states Right to Life office and when we went out to do educational events, Womans Expos, conventions etc…I was shocked. What is incel, mgtow? You lost me. 

“You call getting pregnant “damage” as if it’s a vase you break at a store that you have to pay for. Is this corrrect? Doesn’t sound very pro-life. More punishment than anything. I would say having to go through abortion is punishment enough for most women.”

Getting pregnant is damage if an abortion happens. Most pro-choicers think their position is pro-life even if they say they are opposed to abortion, but still want it legal. I have talked to hundreds upon hundreds of women like myself who have gotten abortions. Rarely do I meet anyone that is happy they did it. Younger women are more defensive and take the “in your face” attitude. I have only been in two confrontations with a woman one at an abortion clinic, and one at a booth at our state fair. 

“Calling a zygote human life (from a “pro-life” stance) doesn’t bring anything to the table other than the wishful ability to ignore all arguments.” 

I don’t ignore any arguments. Bring anything up, I will try to give an answer. I will say this. When I am out in the field doing something concerning abortion, I argue from a scientific view…not religious. Why? Because I respect peoples right to believe religiously what they want. If they are Christian, then I can show the scripture side of the issue. Other wise I have a lot of valid medical information to give out. If can send it your way if you would like to read it.   

“Nothing about economics?”

This I believe is a social issue.

 “1. It’s up to the mother.

2. There’s a difference between a “child” that lacks a developed nervous system and one that is born.”

So she should be able (because she is the mother)….kill her unborn up until the natural gestational age of the unborn? If you tell a woman she has a time limit…then aren’t you taking her rights, her ownership away? So you make a scale as to what unborn deserves life and who doesn’t based on their health. Do you feel that way about kids who are mentally, physically handicapped after they are born? 



“Abortions should become progressively rarer further along in the pregnancy it is. Which is the current situation. Don’t 80 something percent of abortions happen within the first month or two?”

Heres the thing, correct me if I am wrong. You say that abortions should be rarer…further along. Why? Is abortion wrong on some level? And if it’s wrong, why do you condone it? You said…”It’s up to the mother.” Then why should anyone have a say…? Kill unborn children at any time and for any reason. You tell her no…and you are imposing your morality on her. Right?



 
 
#228
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@Reece101
Under Roe, the right to an abortion is guaranteed under the right to privacy. That's also part of the rationale for the Griswold v. Connecticut decision in 1965, which recognized a right to contraception for married people – and eventually, everyone else.
#229
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@3RU7AL
I think it's a profit driven.  Egg brokers, donors...an unregulated industry with a lot of problems. It's basically a manufacturing business. Reduction abortions go on where they kill  babies in multiple pregnancies. It reduces the risk of a woman carrying multiples. Discarded embryos that are created during IVF...Freezing fertilized humans for later use and if they are not used...???  I think its unethical and violates human dignity.

I read this the other day.

"The Jones Institute, one of the pioneers of IVF, reports that only 10 to 20 percent of the human embryos produced by IVF ever result in a normal pregnancy. As for the other 80 to 90 percent, researchers at Yale School of Medicine recently estimated that over 5.7 million human embryonic children have died as a result of IVF."

I feel for couples that want children and can't have them. But children are not commodities. They should not be used as experiments because people are desperate to have them. They should never be objects. 

#230
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@3RU7AL
Anyone can try to kill their child in any sort of way. That has been happening since the beginning of time. And there is no way that you can monitor every pregnancy that occurs in the country. Child abuse, spousal abuse, child pedophelia....incest, etc etc goes on too...but the government can't catch it all. We have laws...the laws should speak and punish those who abuse them. 
#231
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@imdancin
Exodus 21:22 is, however, a part of the Bible that actually does mention the fetus. “When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”

This is fascinating because it outlines specific punishments for specific crimes. If a woman is hurt in a struggle and then has a miscarriage, the penalty is a fine, a mere financial payment. But, if there is further harm, likely meaning the woman has long-term and serious injuries or even dies, then the culprit could be killed. In other words, the life and well-being of the woman, the mother, is of much greater significance than those of her unborn child.

also notice the "payment" is determined by and is paid to the father
#232
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@imdancin
I feel for couples that want children and can't have them. But children are not commodities. They should not be used as experiments because people are desperate to have them. They should never be objects. 
thank you for sharing your honest opinion

#233
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@imdancin
And there is no way that you can monitor every pregnancy that occurs in the country.
oh yes there is.

make the purchase of pregnancy tests require an id.

each pregnancy test is issued with a unique serial number.

every purchased pregnancy test must be returned and registered within 30 days.

anyone who returns a positive pregnancy test is issued a "(pre)birth-certificate" and if they don't produce a living child in approximately 9 months

they will be investigated for child endangerment and or criminal negligence and or manslaughter and or murder

problem solved
#234
Polytheist-Witch
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You can always take pregnancy tests off the market force people to go to a doctor like they used to have to.
#235
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@3RU7AL
And what happens if the mother miscarries?
#236
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@imdancin
And what happens if the mother miscarries?
she has to prove she did everything she could to preserve and prioritize the life of the baby
#237
Lemming
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@3RU7AL
I thought we supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, in this country?
#238
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@3RU7AL

I think the scriptures put a powerful argument on the life of the unborn child. Because a fine might be issued does not suggest the unborn was not human.  If you go to verse 32…Moses wanted a fine paid for the death of a slave. Does this mean that the slave is less than human? No

GOD LOVES CHILDREN. He loves them out of the womb…why would He not he loved them while in the womb?

I will put some scriptures out here……

“If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” (Matthew 18:6)

 Jesus said to His disciples, “whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me” (Matthew 18:5)

"Children are a heritage from the LORD, offspring a reward from him.”  Psalms 127:3

God says in Proverbs 7 that there are seven things that are detestable to Him. One of those are hands that shed innocent blood. This is what abortion is to God..the shedding of innocent blood. In Leviticus 20 that to kill children is to “defile my sanctuary and to profane my holy name."


Psalms 139:13-16 
"For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.
15 
My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place,
    when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
    all the days ordained for me were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.”
 
This is all about God and the child in the womb. David is talking to God….God created his SOUL..before birth. He was wonderfully made. All life in the womb is wonderfully made in Gods eyes. It is man who looks at imperfection as not acceptable. No matter what the handicap or situation…God created it.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”  Jeremiah 1:5

"The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”  Job 33:4

 And today through abortion innocents of the young pay the ultimate price for the sins of others.

 "They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood" (Psalm 94:21)

Abortion is a sin against God and His perfect law. “Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13) Bottom line the only one with the ability to give life is the LORD.

That which is in the womb is blessed by God…it is a good fruit. So even though the woman who contemplates abortion sees it as bad, a problem..that is not how God views it.  The pro-abort/choice crowd doesn’t like to call the unborn, baby. God does however.  

"And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child…” Genesis 16:11

Here are more examples…."Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father” Genesis 19:36  "If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her…” Exodus 21:22  "And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child” 2 Samuel 11:5  "Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with Child of the Holy Ghost” Matthew 1:18     "...as travail upon a woman with child…” 1 Thess 5:3 
#239
imdancin
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Medically there is no way to do that. I had a miscarriage and did not know it. 
#240
Polytheist-Witch
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Until you can prove a god exists it doesn't matter what any god thinks about children, should have nothing to do with law.