Soaking the Rich

Author: Jeff_Goldblum

Posts

Total: 102
Jeff_Goldblum
Jeff_Goldblum's avatar
Debates: 13
Posts: 132
0
2
10
Jeff_Goldblum's avatar
Jeff_Goldblum
0
2
10
-->
@Athias
Perhaps the inconsistency is with your measure, and not the variance in human capability.
I think my measure is consistent. The issue, in my view, is with the market, which assigns rewards and punishments in ways that are not always just.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Jeff_Goldblum
I think my measure is consistent.
Then why haven't you attempted an answer to any of these questions:

Why stop at wealth? Why not suggest a steep tax for anyone who has received a cash gift for their birthdays (isn't that a "privilege of birth"?) or just cash gifts in general? Why not tax all charities, non-profits, and other donation based projects, right? I mean the sum of their work essentially amounts to asking for money. Hardly qualifies as "hard work and skill," right?
The point I'm driving at here is this: if your measure of hard work and skill determine the merit of one's earnings, then using your rationale, would you not also extend a steep tax to any and all cash gifts? Not to mention, charities, non-profits, and donation-based projects? What about passive-income?

The issue, in my view, is with the market, which assigns rewards and punishments in ways that are not always just.
The market is a composite of individual-based values. Rewards and punishment absent of coercive interference are assigned according to the satisfaction of these values. So it begs the question: how is it "just" to impose a penalty, for example, upon LeBron James's income because people would rather pay him more for his work than they would for a teacher's?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 565
Posts: 19,930
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
As socialists would say, don't hate the player, hate the game.

As social democrats would say, don't simply nerf the rich, buff the poor.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,277
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Jeff_Goldblum
Sounds like a disagreement over rhetoric than substance.
That's why I started by saying I wouldn't use that language.

Rhetoric matters, people do not vote with the left side of their brains.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,277
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Athias
Do you pay periodical stipends to your parents/custodians, siblings, teachers/educators, restaurateurs who may have fed you on occasion, retail stores, barbers, or for that matter, anyone who has given you advice?
Yes, I pay my taxes.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
Yes, I pay my taxes.
That's not what I asked. Do you pay every person or establishment who or that has ever had an positive impact in your life a periodical stipend? I'm going to presume, no.

Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,277
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Athias
No tax makes sense to me.
And yet you still want to turn on a faucet and have water come out, or flip a light switch and watch as electricity currents run through, or get in your car and drive on actual roads, all of which were made possible thanks to the infrastructure our tax dollars put in place. But when it's your turn to contribute to the society you have taken advantage of since birth, suddenly that's an issue.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,277
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Athias
That's not what I asked. Do you pay every person or establishment who or that has ever had an positive impact in your life a periodical stipend?
Individually? No. What does that have to do with anything I've argued?
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Athias
What measures do apply when attributing "merit"?
By whatever measure you prescribe too I am generally of the opinion that everyone merits the basic necessities. 
The 700+ American billionaires hold more wealth than the bottom half of households.
Because their labor typically generates more commerce than the bottom half of households.
Is it your contention that billionaires worked harder and contribute more wealth generating potential to society than the women who have already raised a generation? The teachers who taught them? The firemen, doctors and paramedics that keep them safe? The factory and farm laborers who produce the products they are bought and sold? No man is an island. Billionaires would be unable to survive without us.

It is worth asking yourself who needs whom, who does the actual work that makes the machinery of society function and who is actually making bigger sacrifices in their day to day life.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
And yet you still want to turn on a faucet and have water come out, or flip a light switch and watch as electricity currents run through, or get in your car and drive on actual roads, all of which were made possible thanks to the infrastructure our tax dollars put in place. But when it's your turn to contribute to the society you have taken advantage of since birth, suddenly that's an issue.
This argument is asinine. First, I wasn't born here. Second, how does an infant "take advantage" of anything. Third, every naturalized citizen is conscripted into taxation by social security and citizenship. Fourth, there isn't a single service you've listed, whether it's irrigation, electricity, or roads, that's limited to "government expertise." Fifth, nothing would please me more than for you to withdraw the proverbial hand you believe feeds me or anyone else. And I intend to place as much emphasis on this next statement as I can: NO ONE OWES ANYONE ANYTHING--unless delineated and stipulated explicitly in the terms of a willfully entered contract. If I can turn on a faucet and have water come out, or flip a light switch, and drive on a road, that's because from the time I was a child, I cultivated a set of skills which generate commerce, the compensation for which I use to exchange with another or others who have done the same. Do you honestly believe that because you kowtow to an organization which coerces you into submitting a fraction of your income, that you and others of your ilk have "contributed" to anyone's wealth much less play anything other than a minimalistic role in financing public goods,  and that an obligation codified with the threat of deadly force should be placed on those who reside in proximity? In the expression of my illustrious sister, "Pfft!"

Individually? No. What does that have to do with anything I've argued?
If you believe that you're indebted to a corporation because they've spent a fraction of your "protection money" on public goods, then what do you believe you owe those people and establishments that have had a more palpable influence in not only the cultivation of the skills you apply to generate income, but your well-being? I'm willing to bet at the expense of the prospect of eating crow that said people and establishments have not taken your money with the threat of deadly force. And I'm willing to bet that you've paid the government much more than you've paid them.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@secularmerlin
By whatever measure you prescribe too I am generally of the opinion that everyone merits the basic necessities. 
I am not.

Is it your contention that billionaires worked harder
I specifically omitted the words, "work harder." I said, "generate more commerce" which isn't necessarily contingent on how hard one works.

and contribute more wealth generating potential to society
Yes.

than the women who have already raised a generation?
Which of these women generate six or more figures of income?

The teachers who taught them?
Yes.

The firemen, doctors and paramedics that keep them safe?
Typically, yes.

The factory and farm laborers who produce the products they are bought and sold?
Yes.

No man is an island.
Non sequitur.

Billionaires would be unable to survive without us.
You don't know that.

It is worth asking yourself who needs whom,
No.

who does the actual work that makes the machinery of society function and who is actually making bigger sacrifices in their day to day life.
Irrelevant.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Athias
By whatever measure you prescribe too I am generally of the opinion that everyone merits the basic necessities. 
I am not.
No ones existence is guaranteed or justified. Either we all merit basic necessities and human dignity or none of us do.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Athias
I specifically omitted the words, "work harder." I said, "generate more commerce" which isn't necessarily contingent on how hard one works.
Money is a means to an end it is not an end in and of itself. Simply generating revenue (especially personal revenue) is a poor metric for most worthwhile human so far as I  can tell.
than the women who have already raised a generation?
Which of these women generate six or more figures of income?
There would be no people to make any income without them they are responsible for literally all income now being generated. By your metric women are more important than billionairs. Perhaps you should treat them accordingly. 
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@secularmerlin
No ones existence is guaranteed or justified.
What does this mean?

Either we all merit basic necessities and human dignity
I do not conflate "merit basic necessities" with "human dignity."

or none of us do.
No one "merits" basic necessities. Either one can generate income to acquire them, receive them as a gift, (or steal them?) but "merit" has nothing to do with it.

Money is a means to an end it is not an end in and of itself. Simply generating revenue (especially personal revenue) is a poor metric for most worthwhile human so far as I  can tell.
What?! Since when were we gauging how "worthwhile" a human is?

There would be no people to make any income without them they are responsible for literally all income now being generated. By your metric women are more important than billionairs. Perhaps you should treat them accordingly. 
What the H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks? When did this discussion become an inspection of how importantly I treat women?
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Athias
No ones existence is guaranteed or justified.
What does this mean?
It means that generating wealth is not a  intrinsically more worthwhile pursuit than taking care of a sick family member or teaching middle school science or getting really good at ultimate frisbee. You cannot justify validate your existence with cash.
I do not conflate "merit basic necessities" with "human dignity."
You need not conflate them to realize that the former is necessary in achieving the latter.
No one "merits" basic necessities.
In that case no amount of wealth can change this fact. Whether it is true or not billionaires are not more entitled to basic necessities than anyone else. They are not more entitled to food than farmers. They are not more entitled to shelter than a construction worker. They are not more entitled to reliable and affordable transportation than a worker on an auto manufacturing line. That is ridiculous on its face.
What?! Since when were we gauging how "worthwhile" a human is?
Since you insinuated that some humans (specifically poor ones) deserve to be deprived of basic necessities and therefore life. You have essentially insinuated that some humans are not worth keeping alive. This is a pretty direct way of communicating how you would gauge human worth. 

You clearly equate someone's worth directly with their financial worth. If I am somehow mistaken about then perhaps you should examine your language because you have as much as said that this is the case.
What the H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks? When did this discussion become an inspection of how importantly I treat women?
Since you insinuated that some humans (many of them women) deserve to be deprived of basic necessities and therefore life. You have essentially insinuated that some humans are not worth keeping alive. This is a pretty terrible way to treat women. 
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@secularmerlin
Since you insinuated that some humans (specifically poor ones) deserve to be deprived of basic necessities and therefore life. You have essentially insinuated that some humans are not worth keeping alive. This is a pretty direct way of communicating how you would gauge human worth. 

You clearly equate someone's worth directly with their financial worth. If I am somehow mistaken about then perhaps you should examine your language because you have as much as said that this is the case.

Since you insinuated that some humans (many of them women) deserve to be deprived of basic necessities and therefore life. You have essentially insinuated that some humans are not worth keeping alive. This is a pretty terrible way to treat women. 
I'm no longer having this discussion with you. Enjoy your night, sir.
secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@Athias
If you change your mind and if I am still posting when you do
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
Since you insinuated that some humans (specifically poor ones) deserve to be deprived of basic necessities and therefore life. You have essentially insinuated that some humans are not worth keeping alive. This is a pretty direct way of communicating how you would gauge human worth. 
There exists a master executioner that kills
If we substitute for the master executioner to kill
It is like substituting for the great carpenter to cut
Those who substitute for the great carpenter to cut
It is rare that they do not hurt their own hands
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
I do not conflate "merit basic necessities" with "human dignity."
how do you personally distinguish the one from the other ?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
No ones existence is guaranteed or justified.
please elaborate

Either we all merit basic necessities and human dignity or none of us do.
perhaps you could format this as some sort of propositional statement or syllogism
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
how do you personally distinguish the one from the other ?
Dignity is innate. When one argues that one "merits" basic necessities, this necessarily creates an obligation. So the question becomes, who is conscripted in service to this obligation?
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
would you equate "human dignity" with "self-worth" ?
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@3RU7AL
would you equate "human dignity" with "self-worth" ?
Yes.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,277
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Athias
NO ONE OWES ANYONE ANYTHING--unless delineated and stipulated explicitly in the terms of a willfully entered contract.
No one is claiming in any moralistic sense that you owe anyone anything. The point is that you continue to enjoy and take advantage of everything brought to society as a result of tax dollars while arguing that you have no moral obligation to pay  into it. 

If you want to argue that we shouldn't have taxes, so be it. Move somewhere where they don't have public roads or a public infrastructure system that the rest of society paid for to ensure everyone can enjoy the basic necessities in life. Somehow I suspect you won't.

nothing would please me more than for you to withdraw the proverbial hand you believe feeds me or anyone else
Complete strawman. This has nothing to do with the idea that anyone is feeding you. This is about the fact that the means by which you feed yourself was put in place by the very system you rail against as immoral.

Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@Double_R
No one is claiming in any moralistic sense that you owe anyone anything. The point is that you continue to enjoy and take advantage of everything brought to society as a result of tax dollars while arguing that you have no moral obligation to pay  into it. 
This once again is an asinine argument; even if we were to exclude the modification, "moralistic," from this argument, you still wouldn't be able to justify an obligation to pay taxes. Arguing that one is obligated to pay the government taxes is like arguing one is obligated to pay a local mob "protection money."

If you want to argue that we shouldn't have taxes, so be it.
Yes, that is what I'm arguing.

Move somewhere where they don't have public roads or a public infrastructure system that the rest of society paid for to ensure everyone can enjoy the basic necessities in life.
Yes, because it's incumbent upon the one who is being coerced with the threat of deadly force to leave, and not the establishment/institution that assumes priority with the application of said threat of deadly force. Case in point: it was incumbent upon the Ukrainian residents to flee their homes rather than oppose Russia's invasion.

Somehow I suspect you won't.
Of course, I won't. I own my property.

Complete strawman. This has nothing to do with the idea that anyone is feeding you. This is about the fact that the means by which you feed yourself was put in place by the very system you rail against as immoral.
There isn't any distinction in what you just said here. Because it operates on the platitude that "the means by which [I] feed [myself] was put in place by the very system [I] rail against as immoral." Again, none of the services you've listed is limited to government expertise. In fact, the government doesn't provide a marketable service; it acts only as an intermediary--redistributing income and expenditures--with its coercive interference.

secularmerlin
secularmerlin's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,093
3
3
3
secularmerlin's avatar
secularmerlin
3
3
3
-->
@3RU7AL
No ones existence is guaranteed or justified.
please elaborate
There exists no intrinsic meaning and we gave no rights but those we afford to each other.
Either we all merit basic necessities and human dignity or none of us do.
perhaps you could format this as some sort of propositional statement or syllogism
IF humans are worth preserving as a species THEN it is worth affording humans basic necessities and human dignity. 

IF humans are not worth preserving THEN no amount of wealth makes them worth preserving 
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@secularmerlin
IF humans are worth preserving as a species THEN it is worth affording humans basic necessities and human dignity. 
it doesn't appear to follow that ALL humans are worth preserving
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
Arguing that one is obligated to pay the government taxes is like arguing one is obligated to pay a local mob "protection money."
well stated
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
Case in point: it was incumbent upon the Ukrainian residents to flee their homes rather than oppose Russia's invasion.
this is an interesting comparison
3RU7AL
3RU7AL's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 13,551
3
4
9
3RU7AL's avatar
3RU7AL
3
4
9
-->
@Athias
In fact, the government doesn't provide a marketable service
do "security services" and "package delivery" qualify as "marketable services" ?