Who’s worse: Trump or Desantis?

Author: Double_R

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So as many on the left would argue, Trump may be an embarrassment to the country and poor gasoline on every fire, but he’s an incompetent buffoon so when it comes to policy accomplishments he’s impotent. Desantis on the other hand is very smart and will be able to legislate a lot of the nonsense Trump talks about, so Desantis is more dangerous.

I must say I disagree with this. I get what people are talking about here but what I think they fail to take into account is that Trump may be an incompetent buffoon but he has changed the political landscape like no other politician I’ve ever seen or am aware of. Almost half the country now believes the election was stolen, that was unthinkable 6 years ago. White nationalists no longer feel the need to hide and politicians no longer feel like reality matters. Just say whatever you want and your base will follow.

If Trump gets another term he will completely gut all of our institutions and install loyalists all the way down the agencies. He will completely destroy our government from within, and the Trump cultists will cheer him on the whole way.

So while I think he has no real chance at 2024, I say Trump is worse. Wondering who disagree and why.
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@Double_R
boomslang versus barba amarilla
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Shouldn't this be in the Beavis and Butthead forum?
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What if government needs to be taken down a peg or 2?
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@Double_R
Desantis.

The Republican Party has cultivated a political class and base in which total victory of the republicans and acquisition of total power is the only acceptable and only valid outcome of any election; and for which there is near total acceptance of any possible action that maintains, cements or empowers that result.

They have cultivated a self contained bubble where everyone outside is trying to destroy them, and so the nature of political discourse is about destroying the opposition - not about the actioning or discussion of policy that will make anyones lives actually better; and is currently going through a period where absolute loyalty to a figurehead is the primary measure of political suitability.


The issue with Trump, is that his level of narcissism, and qualities that resonate in this crowd vastly exceeds his intelligence, and the intelligence of those around.

I was never that worried about Trump, as much as I have been as to whether an intelligent, Trump like figurehead would come next, and utilize these cultivated aspects of the party into means to really cease power.


The issue is that the Republican Party is now functionally fascist. The cultivation and loyalty of Trumps base, and the sheer unhinged nastiness is identical to the late 1920s Germany, there are some subtle differences; the open hostility to democracy is implicit in action -  not explicit; and the populist target of ire and rage that is exploited for power is not the Jews; but spread over a number of groups.


They want to gain and maintain power; and to do that they will need the military and police, and potentially armed outside groups to be loyal to the leader. They need to have wide support for violent suppression of unrest, support for democratic restrictions that will ensure their victory, and enough tools of the state, judges, etc to exercise and maintain that control.

They’re not that far off actually; but If Desantis is able to rally Trumps base - he has the intelligence and knowledge to cross the hurdle. But saying that, Trump is not far off.


I can very much imagine a theoretical 2028. 4 years of desantis unpopular Republican policies; replacing the deep state and military with loyal republicans. Replacing the judiciary with ultra loyal republicans. Suppressing votes, supporting citizen militia intimidating the vote, machinery of various states still Republican. Loses the election - declares victory, states won’t certify democrat wins, mass unrest put down by loyal police and loyal military, martial law, political opponents harried - and eventually openly suppressed, non sympathetic media shut down - and is able to maintain grip on power, suppression and law changes continue to be harsher, less transparent and better suppress any non-Republican from winning elections, Republican supporters cheering every one of them.

Out of all the barriers that would prevent the above happening, almost of them have been removed over the last 12 years, and accelerated under Trump; with many of others being felt out. If Desantis were to get into power he would be much more effective at removing the remainder than Trump would be.
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@Ramshutu
I can very much imagine a theoretical 2028. 4 years of desantis unpopular Republican policies; replacing the deep state and military with loyal republicans. Replacing the judiciary with ultra loyal republicans. Suppressing votes, supporting citizen militia intimidating the vote, machinery of various states still Republican. Loses the election - declares victory, states won’t certify democrat wins, mass unrest put down by loyal police and loyal military, martial law, political opponents harried - and eventually openly suppressed, non sympathetic media shut down - and is able to maintain grip on power, suppression and law changes continue to be harsher, less transparent and better suppress any non-Republican from winning elections, Republican supporters cheering every one of them.
bingo
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Funny thing is none of this would have happened if Trump won the election in 2020. Trump losing in 2020 made the forecasted civil war inevitable.
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@3RU7AL

This is the result of a Biden victory in 2020.

Joe Biden defeated Donald Trump last November, but the highly anticipated “Blue Wave” never came. For some, Biden’s march to Washington beckons a return to normalcy, but it is clear that our national nightmare is far from over. The seemingly endless election campaign had a two-month extension, with dual Senate run-offs in Georgia that the Democrats swept. Biden’s victory is certainly important, and the wins in Georgia will give his administration more room to implement its legislative program. But the task ahead is far greater than defeating Trump. Throughout Biden’s campaign – never more blatantly than when he promised his donors “nothing would fundamentally change” – calls for a return to normalcy have threatened to drown out the cries of millions who are drowning in debt, wallowing in hunger, and, now more than ever, dying in desperation. While Biden and the Democrats have stuck by the status quo, Medicare for All enjoys widespread popularity, and the demand for a $15 minimum wage won more votes than either Trump or Biden in Florida. Another round of drug legalization swept through four states. A large constituency wants to transform this country into a healthier, more humane society.

The Democratic Party establishment is the problem. Much worse than either Trump or DeSantis.
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@3RU7AL
Be sure to note Grayparrot has plagiarized these remarks, as he often does.  (PRO TIP: any time you catch GP making an appeal on behalf of Americans or humans generally rather than just parroting Trump and Putin's nationalist ideologies, you can be certain he is cut & pasting someone else's shit without credit.)

This is from https://socialistforum.dsausa.org/issues/winter-2021/a-pyrrhic-victory-for-the-democrats/ authored by Liam Kelley, a professor specializing in Vietnamese history from the perspective of the communist regime.  Kelley teaches at Universiti Brunei Darussalam.   When Kelley writes of Americans "wallowing in hunger" we should note that is from the perspective of a man who has not live in the US for decades and draws his salary from the Sultan of Brunei, an absolute monarch of nearly 40 years reign.

Needless to say, whatever Kelley's dissatisfactions with Biden, the author of Greyparrot's post is clear that Republicans are a far worse alternative to Biden.  Passages that GP neglected to pilfer include:

  •  "the success of Trump-style politics is bolstered by the undemocratic aspects of our political system, which means Republicans can adopt ever more extreme positions without paying much of a price. Trump has simply upped the ante from the Tea Party birthers to bloodthirsty QAnon crusaders, some of whom won congressional seats in Florida, North Carolina, and Colorado."
  • "the Republicans have eagerly embraced our decline in pursuit of total deregulation, upward redistribution of wealth, and brutal imperial dominance. A politics of miserable stasis on one hand, the ruthless pursuit of an even worse tomorrow on the other"
  •  "The events of January 6, when pro-Trump protesters stormed the Capitol in a failed bid to overturn the election results, raised the prospect of protracted conflict inside the GOP. Despite this, however, congressional Republicans will be united in their goal of undermining the Biden administration, "
  • "There is no future under this approach. It’s up to the Left to win one, before the Right ends the game."
That is, the academic source GP is parroting here warns that any Republican victory threatens to end the future of the US entirely.  To add insult to the injury of purloining Kelley's publication without attribution, GP tacks on a concluding sentence that states the opposite of the author's intent.

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President Joe Biden's approval rating is lower than Donald Trump's was at the same stage of his presidency, as the Democrats are bracing for potential major losses in this year's midterm elections.

Biden's approval rating was 39 percent as of June 30, according to analysis by poll tracker FiveThirtyEight, while 56.2 percent of Americans disapproved of the way the president is handling his job.

Trump's approval rating on July 1, 2018, was 41.8 percent, while 52.3 percent of Americans disapproved of him, figures from FiveThirtyEight show.

In 2018, Republicans suffered a major defeat in the midterm elections and lost 40 seats in the House of Representatives, handing control to the Democrats and allowing Nancy Pelosi to return as speaker.

The midterms that year took place on November 6. By that point, Trump's approval rating was 41.9 percent, compared to disapproval level of 52.8 percent.

However, the president's approval rating is only one factor in the midterms and though it plays a role in voters' choices, other issues are likely to influence the outcome of the 2022 elections, including high inflation, the state of the economy and the recent landmark Supreme Court ruling on abortion.

The prospects for Democrats look bleak in FiveThirtyEight's generic congressional ballot, which shows Republicans enjoying 44.8 percent support to the Democrats' 42.7 percent - a narrow, but potentially crucial lead of 2.1 percent.

Republicans are likely to focus on issues such as the cost of living crisis in their midterm campaigns and take aim at Biden's handling of the economy. The president's unpopularity could give Republican candidates a boost in close races.

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Someone’s triggered lol
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DeSantis would be a more effective president than Trump but he’s also less of a threat to the institutions. Say what you will about the man but he would probably at least clear the low bar of conceding if he lost. It’s a pick your poison if you’re on the left I think. Trump would be significantly less likely to win imo
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🔫🔫🔫
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Who is worse? Who is better, is the question that ought to be asked. 
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@Greyparrot
President Joe Biden's approval rating is lower than Donald Trump's was at the same stage of his presidency, as the Democrats are bracing for potential major losses in this year's midterm elections. 

Biden's approval rating was 39 percent as of June 30, according to analysis by poll tracker FiveThirtyEight, while 56.2 percent of Americans disapproved of the way the president is handling his job.

Trump's approval rating on July 1, 2018, was 41.8 percent, while 52.3 percent of Americans disapproved of him, figures from FiveThirtyEight show.

In 2018, Republicans suffered a major defeat in the midterm elections and lost 40 seats in the House of Representatives, handing control to the Democrats and allowing Nancy Pelosi to return as speaker.

The midterms that year took place on November 6. By that point, Trump's approval rating was 41.9 percent, compared to disapproval level of 52.8 percent.

However, the president's approval rating is only one factor in the midterms and though it plays a role in voters' choices, other issues are likely to influence the outcome of the 2022 elections, including high inflation, the state of the economy and the recent landmark Supreme Court ruling on abortion.

The prospects for Democrats look bleak in FiveThirtyEight's generic congressional ballot, which shows Republicans enjoying 44.8 percent support to the Democrats' 42.7 percent - a narrow, but potentially crucial lead of 2.1 percent.

Republicans are likely to focus on issues such as the cost of living crisis in their midterm campaigns and take aim at Biden's handling of the economy. The president's unpopularity could give Republican candidates a boost in close races.
lol Oromagi was right:
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@Ramshutu
I can very much imagine a theoretical 2028. 4 years of desantis unpopular Republican policies; replacing the deep state and military with loyal republicans. Replacing the judiciary with ultra loyal republicans. Suppressing votes, supporting citizen militia intimidating the vote, machinery of various states still Republican. Loses the election - declares victory, states won’t certify democrat wins, mass unrest put down by loyal police and loyal military, martial law, political opponents harried - and eventually openly suppressed, non sympathetic media shut down - and is able to maintain grip on power, suppression and law changes continue to be harsher, less transparent and better suppress any non-Republican from winning elections, Republican supporters cheering every one of them.

Out of all the barriers that would prevent the above happening, almost of them have been removed over the last 12 years, and accelerated under Trump; with many of others being felt out. If Desantis were to get into power he would be much more effective at removing the remainder than Trump would be.
If you truly believe this is the most likely outcome isn’t the US just boned in that case? I mean there will be another Republican president at some point 
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Funny thing is none of this would have happened if Trump won the election in 2020. Trump losing in 2020 made the forecasted civil war inevitable.
There will be no civil war. Lincoln wasn’t even allowed on the ballot in most of the confederate and border states in 1860. In the ones he was he got 1% in Virginia, less than 1% in Kentucky, and 2.5% in Maryland. He got less than 2,000 votes throughout the entire future confederacy…and won anyway

That’s what a country on the verge of splitting up looks like. Not Trump/Biden getting close to a third of the vote minimum in every state 
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we will see after a few assassinations.
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 I mean there will be another Republican president at some point 
I think the left is so fucked up with the crazy fringe people that they truly want the country to be one party like California and New York.

That’s what a country on the verge of splitting up looks like. Not Trump/Biden getting close to a third of the vote minimum in every state
Some states actually want to secede in order to preserve 1 party rule.
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What if government needs to be taken down a peg or 2?
OMG, the orange-gray-parrot believes that to change government we need to elect and orange, narrccisitic, immoral, lie ever five minutes, imbecile who insults USA's ---and other countries intelligence--- a  to create chaos and attempt insurrection at USA capital ---to which his and republican lackeys call it  people just doing a self-guided tour of capita---l is your answer to changing government processes/ways of ineptitude?

I agree that, humanity needs a radical overhaul of our behaviors to survive beyond another 200 years, I just dont agree that Trumpet or Desantis is the best answer to lead humanity out sniffing its own armpit all of the time.

I dont believe any political leaders is an answer to humanities dumb-ass and egotistical  behavior.

I believe science along with algorythms ---computers--  and accurate data input and resultant scenarios,  is the best options for answers to  humanities long time survival. Who will point us in the correct direction? More likely it will be a what, and by the time a ' what ' appears it will be too late.  And that too late time may already be here. 









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@Ramshutu
I was never that worried about Trump, as much as I have been as to whether an intelligent, Trump like figurehead would come next, and utilize these cultivated aspects of the party into means to really cease power.
But that’s the part of it I just don’t see.

The gist of your post to summarize, and I’ll use an analogy here, is that Trump carried the Republican Party about 70% of the way before being stifled by his own incompetence, so now a capable fascistic leader just needs to carry the party the other 30%, give or take. The problem I see is that much of that 70% collapses without Trump.

What makes Trump unique and remarkable is that he has managed to maintain two contradictory brands at the same time; (1) that’s he’s some sort of business genius and (2) that he’s an ignorant buffoon. Because of this he gets away with things no other politician ever could. If Desantis went around claiming he really won the election he could not pass himself off as being dumb enough to believe it. At least not to the middle of the road voter.

This is why candidates who go full in on Trumpism don’t do well as soon as they need to appeal to a mainstream audience; they will always run into this dilemma. I just don’t see anyone else being able to carry that mantle. Anyone else trying will come off to the masses as a wannabe dictator instead of that goofy uncle like figure in Trump.
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@Greyparrot
 I mean there will be another Republican president at some point 
I think the left is so fucked up with the crazy fringe people that they truly want the country to be one party like California and New York.
And the political right is what, a model of accepting electoral defeat?
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And the political right is what, a model of accepting electoral defeat?
  • Neither side is, people don't like losing. 
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There is a huge difference between fighting for power and destroying your competition so you don't have to fight anymore. 

I don't see any Republican yet attempting to eliminate the opposition. This could change though after the 2022 midterms if the majority accepts the destruction of your opposition as the status quo now.
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There's an unusual trend in political ads in this year's primary season. Democratic groups are running ads in hopes of boosting far-right candidates. The goal, as the theory goes, is to wind up with a Republican nominee who would be easier to beat come November. The latest such case is in a congressional primary in West Michigan. NPR's Don Gonyea reports.

DON GONYEA, BYLINE: First-term GOP Congressman Peter Meijer comes from a well-known Michigan family with deep ties to the community. He has a business background and military experience, serving in Iraq. But there's also this on his resume. He is one of 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach President Donald Trump in January of 2021. Because of that vote, he has a primary challenger - former Trump administration official John Gibbs. Gibbs has little name recognition, but suddenly he is the subject of an ad on TV being funded by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: John Gibbs is too conservative for West Michigan. Handpicked by Trump to run for Congress, Gibbs called Trump the greatest president.

GONYEA: But for an ad that purports to be an attack, its tone is pretty mild - no ominous music or scary sound effects. The announcer is downright pleasant.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Gibbs has promised to push that same conservative agenda in Congress - a hard line against immigrants at the border and so-called patriotic education.

GONYEA: Asked about the ad, the DCCC had no comment. Political analysts say the real purpose is to build up Gibbs - to say things Trump supporters want to hear and to give this challenger a boost in the primary over the more moderate Meijer. The Michigan race is a toss-up congressional district, but ads like these, paid for by Democratic groups, have been seen around the country this year in Pennsylvania, Maryland, California and elsewhere, raising the profile of hard-core pro-Trump candidates. Political scientist Burwood Yost is at Franklin and Marshall College.

BERWOOD YOST: That's the bet they're making - that you can lift up a candidate who would be appealing to primary voters but would be too extreme for general election voters, and that makes a Democrat's path to election easier.

GONYEA: Congressman Meijer's campaign has called out such tactics as playing political games. One prominent Republican, Illinois Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who also voted to impeach Trump and who's a member of the January 6 committee, is very critical of such attacks.

ADAM KINZINGER: I think it's disgusting.

GONYEA: And he said on CNN to look for this to backfire in some races.

KINZINGER: Don't come to me after having spent money supporting an election denier in a primary, and then come to me and say, where are all the good Republicans?

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I don't see any Republican yet attempting to eliminate the opposition.
This is a joke right?
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Neither side is
That doesn’t make them equal
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@Double_R
Well, I would say the Democrats are worse
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You don't see Republicans pouring millions of dollars to make sure racist Democrat CRT candidates win their primaries. 

But only the Democrats attempt to destroy their opposition by funding with millions Republican "Trumpy" candidates people would not vote for, (supposedly)

There is a clear difference. Who is objectively attempting to make the country more radical?
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I think the Democratic party is much more corrupt as well. We saw this with the Russian collusion conspiracy theory spread by them just 5 years ago when Trump took office.