Is the God of the Bible &quot;good&quot; or &quot;wicked&quot;?

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03.30.2023 03:24PM

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@ludofl3x

@YouFound_Lxam

YouFound_Lxam, that has committed the Unpardonable Sin, and is trying to be more "Bible Dumber" than Miss Tradesecret,

YOUR QUOTE RELATIVE TO LUDOFL3X'S KILLING AN EVIL DOG IF OUR GOD JESUS SAID TO IT: "Again...............God would not ask anyone to do this, or do this himself. Use scripture if you want an example."

THINK, if our God Jesus makes His creation to eat their sons and daughters flesh, no matter what the circumstance was to do so, it is not beyond reason for Jesus to tell you to murder all dogs because He doesn't want them in Heaven in the first place making messes! Understood Bible fool?

JESUS AS GOD SAID: "I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh because their enemies will press the siege so hard against them to destroy them." (Jeremiah 19:9)

YouFound_Lxam, is Jesus "WICKED" in forcing His creation to eat their children's flesh? Can you simply answer this, or are you going to RUN AWAY again from actual biblical axioms and hide like you usually do because you are nothing but a pseudo-christian?

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#62

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03.30.2023 03:26PM

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@DavidAZ

Again, appreciate the honesty brother! As always happy to continue the discussion and have my own views pressed, I really do enjoy thinking about why I think things, which sounds weird. For context, I might have mentioned I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic elementary school, and I'm not a bible scholar or anything, but the more I started to ask questions (which eventually got me kicked out of confirmation class! My parent were mortified), the less things I was taught made sense.

PS the "plan" stuff is also why I never understood why Judas Iscariot was so reviled and synonymous with treachery. Without him, Easter doesn't happen.

Topic's author

#63

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03.30.2023 03:28PM

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@Stephen

@BrotherD.Thomas

The reason why I had discourse with Ludo and not both of you is because I was looking for a real discourse and not some childish banter back and forth. If I wanted to fight with trolls, then I would have started a D&D game.

Brother D is an obvious troll and I actually enjoy his posts if you know that his posts are comic satire. Stephen just sounds like an angry teenager and I wanted to give him a platform to spout his beliefs, but all he did is play the word games like our posts in the other thread and ignore my "other aspects" portion anyways. All he did was say the same thing over again.

#64

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03.30.2023 03:49PM

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@DavidAZ

Stephen just sounds like an angry teenager and I wanted to give him a platform to spout his beliefs,

Well that is generous of you DavidAZ.. Did you not stop to think that this is actually a forum where I can create my own platform to "spout" my beliefs, which I have done regularly ?

I am not angry at all. I enjoy discussing all things biblical - unlike yourself it appears that simply prefers to discuss why god is great and loves us with all his heart.

all he did is play the word games like our posts in the other thread and ignore my "other aspects" portion anyways

No. They weren't word games they were simply asking for clarification before any conversation went any further.

You gave me you own definitions of both the words "good" and wicked" which I appreciated and in the very same post you said this to me:

DavidAZ wrote: I do appreciate your time on this Stephen.#12

from that point I started with my comments. HERE>

So stop with your excuses for not responding.

What I posed obviously was a little too difficult for you but it would have been interesting to me why you believed the actions of god in those cases were "good" and not "wicked".

#65

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https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5874-judas-had-a-bad-deal

03.30.2023 03:56PM

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@ludofl3x

PS the "plan" stuff is also why I never understood why Judas Iscariot was so reviled and synonymous with treachery. Without him, Easter doesn't happen.

Me neither.

In fact I created a thread all about it here 2 years ago;

Judas Had A Bad Deal.

The usual suspects gave it a wide birth....

#66

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03.30.2023 04:01PM

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@BrotherD.Thomas

Stephen, do you think DavidAZ will RUN AWAY from this discussion

No I didn't Brother D.

That was until I just read this:

In the mean time I will sit back and enjoy reading his comments on this thread.

#67

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03.30.2023 04:19PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

YouFound_Lxam

Why didn't god intervein in this "wicked" story and spare the child !?

Was Jephthah "wicked" or "good"?

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands.

33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.

36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.
37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.

And it was a custom in Israel,

40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year. Judges. K J V.

#68

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03.30.2023 04:46PM

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@DavidAZ

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DavidAZ, who uses lame child-like excuses to RUN AWAY from my Biblical axioms inspired by Jesus,

YOUR SCARED RUNAWAY EXCUSE QUOTE TO THE TOPIC OF YOUR THREAD: "The reason why I had discourse with Ludo and not both of you is because I was looking for a real discourse and not some childish banter back and forth."

What happened, your topic of this thread is: “Is the God of the Bible "good" or “wicked,” and where I will biblically show you that my serial killer Jesus, as God, is outright WICKED, but you use the lame pseudo-christian excuse #4948584 shown in your quote above to RUN AWAY from this factual discussion with me!

Are you that SCARED in front of the membership to engage me upon this topic, whereas, don’t you understand that they are watching you be “wimpy” and in being an outright “runaway" form Jesus' inspired words within the Bible?” LOL!

Lest you forget, you are to DEFEND your faith as Jesus states in the passage below, and if you don’t at least “try” are you calling Jesus a LIAR?

"He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it." (Titus 1:9)

WICKED: evil or morally bad in principle or practice; sinful; iniquitous.

DavidAZ, okay, take a deep breath and don’t embarrass yourself in front of the membership by running away, therefore, lets start our discussion with this topic with Jesus being God in where he made His creation eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, no matter what the circumstance was in doing so, whereas, I say that Jesus was absolutely WICKED in performing this ungodly act!

JESUS AS GOD SAID: "I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh because their enemies will press the siege so hard against them to destroy them." (Jeremiah 19:9)

Therefore, what do you say?

BEGIN:

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#69

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03.30.2023 04:58PM

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@BrotherD.Thomas

DavidAZ, who uses lame child-like excuses to RUN AWAY from my factual Biblical axioms

Brother D.

Re-arrange these words. They most certainly apply to our "new" member DavidAZ

kitchen the if stand the of out get you can't heat.

BEGIN: .

#70

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03.30.2023 05:00PM

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03.30.2023 05:00PM

Playing word games with the bible isn't going to get anyone very far, guys, you know it by now. It kinda sucks for conversation.

Sorry, forgot to tag Stephan and Brother.

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03.30.2023 05:04PM

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@ludofl3x

The explanation for who the Amalekites were wasn't a biblical definition. It was according to the Midrash.

What it goes to show is that the Amalekites were attempting/practicing some type of sorcery.

If they could legitimately shapeshift to look like animals, I don't know.

Come on dude, this is a thought experiment. Please just answer the question. Is what I described a MORAL action? God told you to do it.

I understand the question, but this would be like asking me:

"Since God told Abraham, to sacrifice his son, would you be willing to sacrifice yours for your faith?"

That question is not and will never be a valid question, because God would never tell you to do that, and have you go through with it.

God used Abraham and tested his faith by giving him this task. God never intended harm on Abraham's son, it was simply a test.

Given this, God would never tell you to do that to your son, and have you actually do it.

When asking a theoretical question in a thought experiment, the thought experiment, only has to have at leas a 0.000000000000000000001% rate of actually happening, in order for the thought experiment to be legitimate.

The percent rate of God asking you to do these things is 0%, therefore it is not a legitimate question.

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03.30.2023 05:05PM

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@ludofl3x

You can though ask about a legitimate scripture in which God is supposedly "wicked" and I would be happy to get into a deep conversation with you about that.

#73

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03.30.2023 05:14PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Why not try reading the discussion I've already had with David and raise your objections to it? Do your homework, man.

You're not even following my question, because if I applied it to Abraham, WOULD KILLING ISAAC HAVE BEEN MORAL? You will respond "but he didn't" without realizing that what that then means. I asked you about divine command theory and you've refused to engage in that, that's on you, not me.

You can though ask about a legitimate scripture in which God is supposedly "wicked" and I would be happy to get into a deep conversation with you about that.

I already tried that and you went to some extratextual reference. According to you in this very topic, that's out of bounds as it's not in the scripture. Play by your own rules. There are no rules that a thought experiment has to have some probability of happening, either, that's just something you're bringing in so you don't have to answer the question. I can come up with a ton of them and all you said is "GOD WOULDN'T DO THAT," which I didn't refute, but I asked HOW DO YOU KNOW. You're not answering that question either. I think you want to just be in here complaining and being loud.

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03.30.2023 05:16PM

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@Stephen

Why didn't god intervein in this "wicked" story and spare the child !?
Was Jephthah "wicked" or "good"?

God can't intervene in the choices of humans, because that would be taking away our free will to choose sin or life.

Jephthah wasn't wicked.

He made a promise to God, and regretted that promise. It was sad and unfortunate, but he had to keep his promise, for he lived in the old testimate, and did not have christ as his savior.

#75

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03.30.2023 05:17PM

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@ludofl3x

According to you in this very topic, that's out of bounds as it's not in the scripture.

There you go. Now you understand.

#76

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03.30.2023 05:32PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

According to you in this very topic, that's out of bounds as it's not in the scripture.
There you go. Now you understand.

Let me try it one more way. Does god still interact with the world today?

It was sad and unfortunate

This is how you're describing having to burn his daughter alive. I'm starting to wonder about your intellectual honesty and frankly your personal integrity.

#77

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03.30.2023 05:38PM

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@ludofl3x

Let me try it one more way. Does god still interact with the world today?

Interact, and prevent sin are two different things.

This is how you're describing having to burn his daughter alive. I'm starting to wonder about your intellectual honesty and frankly your personal integrity.

Heartbreaking, depressing, life altering, sad.

It can be described in any way you'd like. That doesn't change that it was sad.

#78

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03.30.2023 05:49PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Interact,

So then is it possible for god today to do something that's not in the bible? If the answer is no, then fine, we'll stick to the scriptures and I've given you examples of his wickedness in scripture. I can do it all day, but word games with the bible are fruitless and boring. If he CAN do things today that are not in the bible, then you can participate in my three different thought experiments.

#79

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03.30.2023 06:09PM

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@ludofl3x

So then is it possible for god today to do something that's not in the bible? If the answer is no, then fine, we'll stick to the scriptures and I've given you examples of his wickedness in scripture. I can do it all day, but word games with the bible are fruitless and boring. If he CAN do things today that are not in the bible, then you can participate in my three different thought experiments.

He can do things not in the Bible. Miracles happen every day.

But the things you are suggesting he would do, he wouldn't do those things. He has a reason and purpose for everything. If you are to use a thought experiment, you have to provide an explanation for why he did the things he did. But at that point you would be answering your own question.

Topic's author

#80

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03.30.2023 06:12PM

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@BrotherD.Thomas

Brother D,

Did you not see my last post where I have clearly called you out as a Bible Troll?! A rebuke is only necessary for the likes of a Pseudo-Christian, as you say so yourself. But if you were to read the entire set of letters by Paul, you would soon realize that he encourages us not to engage in useless ramblings and vain jangling such as yours:

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

Must I always teach the Bible Ignorant such as you to the ways of reading scriptures?! You claim I RUN AWAY but only the dumb in mind want to run towards gore and destruction, the same that spews from your unbridled mouth moved by none other than the hand of Beelzebub, your master! AMEN!

Therefore, if I am "Bible Stupid", then you must be "Bible brainless®" and your intelligence will never exceed that of a gnat. GET IT?!

Now understand what has been said straight from my own mouth and without further dispute, I close your BEGIN with an:

ENDED!

I would demand from you an offering for the verbal slapping I have achieved upon your jowly face, except I know the change, nicotine gum wrappers and bits of lint that resides in your pockets would turn my offering plate into a bowl of hellish imps.

#81

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03.30.2023 06:18PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

But the things you are suggesting he would do, he wouldn't do those things.

Please explain how you know this.

If you are to use a thought experiment, you have to provide an explanation for why he did the things he did. But at that point you would be answering your own question.

YOU ARE MISSING THE QUESTION. It's not about why god does what he does, why he has asked you to kill your neighbor or beat up a pre schooler. The question has literally nothing to do with that. The question, again, is "ARE THOSE ACTIONS MORAL". You said you ascribe to divine command, your answer should be unequivocal: it's yes, they are moral. Is that what you think?

#82

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03.30.2023 06:29PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Why didn't god intervein in this "wicked" story and spare the child !?
Was Jephthah "wicked" or "good"? 30-40 Judges. K J V.

God can't intervene in the choices of humans, because that would be taking away our free will to choose sin or life.

I see. "Can't" you say. So god never intervenes in human affairs? What about reducing our life span? Was that nothing to do with god intervening because of human life choices ?

Jephthah wasn't wicked.

FFS! It was a horrific biblical horror story. I would say that barbequing your own innocent virgin child was a pretty "wicked" act .

He made a promise to God, and regretted that promise.

Indeed he was so regretful and sad that he followed through with the murder of his of his own virgin child. Would you have done as Jephthah did. Surely the honourable thing would have been to plead with god for the life of his child and offer a sacrifice of a ram instead and hand over all his worldly goods to the "poor" . Or simply kill himself.

It was sad and unfortunate, but he had to keep his promise.

Why?

Wasn't child sacrifice against the law of god?

#83

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03.30.2023 06:38PM

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@ludofl3x

Playing word games with the bible isn't going to get anyone very far

Then you have never held a conversation with that bible dunce the Reverend Tradesecret. Is all he ever does is redefine words in the bible to fit his arguments. In fact this all apologist ever do. See above on this very thread!!

Melcharaz wrote: when you say fear. do you mean actually be afraid of? or to honor him?
DavidAZ wrote : I believe the biblical reference to the word "fear" is more of an honor or reverence. It is the same idea as your feelings to your father (assuming your father was a good man) when you were a kid. You loved your dad and enjoyed being around your dad, but cross dad and, whoowee!, get ready for some correction. You know dad had the power to make your life miserable but you also know that your dad loved you so you stayed on his good side, knowing that insolence could land you some painful lessons.

I intend to make a comment on why this is absolute bullshit later.

Oh and that was my sole reason for asking DavidAZ to define both words "good" and "wicked". maybe now you understand!

#84

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03.30.2023 06:41PM

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@Stephen

Then you have never held a conversation with that bible dunce the Reverend Tradesecret. Is all he ever does is redefine words in the bible to fit his arguments. In fact this all apologist ever do. See above on this very thread!!

Actually I have, and I agree, the redefining of words is pretty lame and boring. That's why I don't have conversations with him anymore, it's just board pollution. It's a much more interesting world when you can actually have human conversations with people who have different views without all the "a HA! but this word in hebrew is THIS and this one is THAT." If you don't get value out of interacting with him, then don't, there's no rule that you have to.

#85

IlDiavolo

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IlDiavolo

03.30.2023 06:46PM

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03.30.2023 06:46PM

Neither of them. The God of the Christians is just a human being, like all of us, because sometimes he's happy, other times he's in a so bad mood that wants to fuck everyone up, but most of the time he just doesnt give a shit what happen to the world.

This is Jehova, the God of Christians, so human as the ones who wrote the bible. 😆

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@ludofl3x

I agree, the redefining of words is pretty lame and boring.

And it is sly and devious too.

And now you should understand that was my sole reason for asking DavidAZ to define both words "good" and "wicked" BEFORE we went any further. They are good at changing the definitions and meanings of words half way through a conversation.

Tell me, was it an unreasonable request?

If you don't get value out of interacting with him, then don't, there's no rule that you have to.

But that is what I was sincerely hoping for. But the coward fell at the first fence and has since made excuse for not interacting on the same "lame" and flimsy reason saying that - I, ME !!! " was playing word games", !!!.

The best part of all is that he did give me his "definitions" and in the same post said;

DavidAZ wrote: I do appreciate your time on this Stephen.#12

It was only AFTER I posted my first response to his actual question that he decided he didn't want to play anymore and took his ball home.

It all there for you or anyone else to read for themselves..

#87

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03.30.2023 07:10PM

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@Stephen

Tell me, was it an unreasonable request?

Did you ask him because he had a pattern of doing this? I asked him and he answered just fine in this topic. I think you asked him because reflexively you figure believers all like to do that, maybe that's true, maybe you're right, but I don't think it's especially conducive to conversation with a new member like that. Give them a chance to prove you right. The word games are all these scriptural things you're using as a gotcha, believers just say the words are flexible, you just say the words are the words, then start name calling and all that.

#88

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03.30.2023 07:39PM

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@ludofl3x

Tell me, was it an unreasonable request?
Did you ask him because he had a pattern of doing this? I asked him and he answered just fine in this topic. I think you asked him because reflexively you figure believers all like to do that, maybe that's true, maybe you're right, but I don't think it's especially conducive to conversation with a new member like that.

He had no problem giving his definitions to me either, "he answered just fine", regardless of my reason, which was to avoid unnecessary arguments over the meaning and definitions of the words "good and "wicked". It was BIBLICAL definitions I asked for: here

You asked the same;

"Can you perhaps define what you think the word "wicked" means in context, just so that when people are pulling bible passages, they're not wasting their time"?

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9125-is-the-god-of-the-bible-good-or-wicked?page=1&post_number=3

I'll grant you, you did maybe ask in a more diplomatic way that I. But did you read his response to you?.

DavidAZ wrote: "As for wicked, I am leaving that to be defined by any poster as they see fit".

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9125-is-the-god-of-the-bible-good-or-wicked?page=1&post_number=5

He responded in this way because it left the gate wide open for him to argue definitions later on during any conversation. He's a sly crafty fkr. And he knows that I know he is.

The word games are all these scriptural things you're using as a gotcha,[....................]then start name calling and all that.

Not at all. I asked for the exact opposite reason. I didn't want an argument or a gotcha moment. I didn't want yet another thread reduced to "name calling". as I said, I was simply attempting to avoid the very issue of definitions later on in the conversation- nip it in the bud, so to speak.

You didn't answer my question Ludo;

Tell me, was it an unreasonable request?

new member

And you believe that do you. Rhetorical question.

#89

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03.30.2023 08:26PM

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@ludofl3x

I'm pretty sure anyone who tells someone to

kill your neighbor

Or

beat up a pre schooler.

Is not morally right.

But this doesn't apply to God, because he wouldn't break his own moral law.

You're looking at it through the Lense of:

God said to kill this person, or group of people, therefore he is a wicked God.

I am saying:

God always has a purpose to why he does things or command others to do things.

So yes, telling someone to kill another is not moral. But God holds moral law, and has reasonings for doing certain things, that hold moral standards.

#90

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