The transgenderism debate

Author: YouFound_Lxam

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#31
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@YouFound_Lxam
Yea, with all due respect you should probably do at least a little research into the topic before arguing for it. 
Did I miss the part where someone named Jazz was part of our national discussion? I'm not making any arguments on someone named Jazz. And I've gotten plenty of exposure to transgender people, none of them have said "Why don't you try being transgender, join our ideology!" It's just not that big a deal. 
#32
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@YouFound_Lxam
Maybe there's a more useful way we can have this discussion.

I'll acknowledge that you have a problem with transgenderism. 

Can you tell me how you'd propose to solve it?
#33
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@YouFound_Lxam
the idea that men can become women and women can become men.
If only it were this straightforward (albeit incoherent and lacking meaningful definitions even at this rudimentary level). It also posits the idea that a man or woman can be neither a man nor a woman (agender); a woman or man can be both a man and a woman (non-binary); a woman or man can be either a man or woman, both a man and a woman, or neither a man nor woman depending on mood (gender fluid), and the list goes on… longer than any single individual could explain or understand…

#34
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@cristo71
The idea that someone has a right to their own self identity and the right to define their sexuality in a way that they see fit is all true. I'm just not sure how it causes "a problem" for "society." 
#35
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@ludofl3x
The idea that someone has a right to their own self identity and the right to define their sexuality in a way that they see fit is all true.
On an individual level, sure. But the transgender movement, on a societal level, has been steadily moving their goalposts forward. The goals trend like so:

Tolerance—> Acceptance—> Celebration—> Incentivisation/expansion

I’m ok with the first goal, maybe the second, but not the third and fourth. The proliferation of people who identify as transgender has exceeded any evolutionary or biological explanation. It has reached social contagion levels. Somehow, the fourth phase is happening at the same time or perhaps even before “celebration” has taken hold.

I'm just not sure how it causes "a problem" for "society."
Because it is an incoherent ideology, and to me, embracing incoherencies is bad for society. It causes groupthink, confusion, and chaos. The movement is seeking policies which I consider an overreach and fostering confusion. If you are truly curious, look into Canada’s policies and how a professor named Jordan Peterson got on the wrong side of them. You can also read the story of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” which serves as a prescient metaphor.
#36
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 But the transgender movement, on a societal level, has been steadily moving their goalposts forward. The goals trend like so:

Tolerance—> Acceptance—> Celebration—> Incentivisation/expansion

I’m ok with the first goal, maybe the second, but not the third and fourth. T
I don't know that I agree that "incentivization or expansion" is one of their goals.

I don't have any problem with any of the other three. I really am not super interested in Canadian law, and my work computer has enough weird searches in it, so I'm going to skip the Peterson stuff and just say that I don't think the LGTBQ population is trying to grab new adherents, but I certainly can understand that more societal acceptance, more outreach, more 'normalization' might make people somewhat uncomfortable, but that's the same with all change. I'm sure people in the 60's had to get used to sitting whites with blacks at lunch counters, didn't happen in a day. 

WHat actual policies are they pursuing that you consider overreach?
#37
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@TWS1405_2
Once, then you used the term norms and kept repeating it. And it does change it deduction of it because societal before the word changes the intended meaning of the term as a whole, societal (social) norms vs just norms.
Oh for God's sake, I used it once to designate the norms we were talking about, and then I went on to use the word norm correctly to address the meaning of the word norm,  as it applies to the try reading it slow, for comprehension, and if that doesn't work, try a dictionary.  

The sentence also had the word diversity in it, and I know that word upsets you, but all the words taken together form a sentence, and the sentence was grammatically correct, I'm sorry it included one of your trigger words, try to calm down about it. (please note: that's a "tr" there on the word trigger btw, don't get excited)

#38
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@Sidewalker
Good grief yourself, you pompous little 💩!


Norms: norm
/nôrm/
noun
  1. something that is usual, typical, or standard.
    "this system has been the norm in Germany for decades"
The former is very specific, the latter is not as it can apply to anything (“something that is…”). 



#39
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@YouFound_Lxam
not just accepted without thought. 


What is there to think about?  One distributes the seed and the other is the vessel/ vestal.

#40
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@cristo71
Tried to add this in edit but it's too old now. Just to avoid getting lost in the weeds:

What is the solution you'd propose to what you consider to be the problem?

As with Liam I'm not trying to trick anyone, I just think this might help me understand what you're seeing that's different from what I see. 
#41
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@ludofl3x
I've gotten plenty of exposure to transgender people, none of them have said "Why don't you try being transgender, join our ideology!" It's just not that big a deal. 
But it is a big deal. 
It’s infiltrating public education, legislation, laws, court decisions, scotus decisions legislating from the bench in order to pander to it, it’s in television, it’s in YouTube videos (the beast), product advertisement, in our girls/women’s sports and their safe spaces (bathrooms, locker rooms), it’s forcefully altering language and punishing those who don’t agree or use the right pronouns. I can go on and on and on. It is a big deal. And it’s all premised on a mental disorder that’s invading the lives of children. WA state is even going so far as passing legislation allowing the state to legally kidnap your child if you don’t agree with their wishes to be called Johnny instead of Jane and place them in either a liberal or alphabet soup foster home while they transition without your further knowledge or acceptance. It is a big deal. You’re just in denial. 
#42
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@TWS1405_2
 You’re just in denial. 
And I think you've got your panties in a wad over nothing, so I guess there endeth our debate. I always like how up in arms right side folks get over transgender story hours which have literally killed zero children.  
#43
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@ludofl3x
You’re just in denial. 
And I think you've got your panties in a wad over nothing, 

🤦‍♂️

What part of the following did you fucking not comprehend!?!

  • It’s infiltrating public education, legislation, laws, court decisions, scotus decisions legislating from the bench in order to pander to it, it’s in television, it’s in YouTube videos (the beast), product advertisement, in our girls/women’s sports and their safe spaces (bathrooms, locker rooms), it’s forcefully altering language and punishing those who don’t agree or use the right pronouns. I can go on and on and on. It is a big deal. And it’s all premised on a mental disorder that’s invading the lives of children. WA state is even going so far as passing legislation allowing the state to legally kidnap your child if you don’t agree with their wishes to be called Johnny instead of Jane and place them in either a liberal or alphabet soup foster home while they transition without your further knowledge or acceptance. It is a big deal.
You can’t win this debate with me and you know it. Hence your yellow bellied tuck tail and existing the proverbial stage door left. Don’t let it hit you on your way out. Intellectual coward. 
#44
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@TWS1405_2
I didn't say I don't understand it, I just know those talking points (some of which are redundant so as to make the problem look bigger), and I've covered them in other threads, which is why I asked for a solution, at least we can talk about it differently. Your hilarious description of the WA state law tells me all I really need to know, you're not super interested in any sort of substantive discussion and would rather be king of the message boards, to which I say mazel tov, good for you, it doesn't interest me.

Don't forget to drop a Dunning Kroger in there, dude. Thanks, have a good one!
#45
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@ludofl3x
transgender story hours which have literally killed zero children.  
Tell that to the 3 children murdered by the transgender man at the Christian school. 

#46
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@ludofl3x
I really am not super interested in Canadian law…

WHat actual policies are they pursuing that you consider overreach?
You admit to being incurious about my guidance yet pose a question about that very thing?
#47
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@cristo71
Yes, then I changed my question to something more interesting to me: what's the solution. 
#48
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@ludofl3x
Yes, then I changed my question to something more interesting to me: what's the solution.
So… now you want to know my opinion on a solution to what is a non problem not needing any solution in your opinion? Isn’t that… sort of pointless? For both of us, actually?


#49
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@<<<TWS1405_2>>>
I didn't say I don't understand it,
You didn't have to. This said it loud and clear: 
And I think you've got your panties in a wad over nothing, so I guess there endeth our debate
Oh, and...

I just know those talking points (some of which are redundant so as to make the problem look bigger),
Facts =/= "talking points" (unsubstantiated liberal garbage).

The problems are big and are only getting bigger. You just proved your denialism, yet again. 

and I've covered them in other threads, which is why I asked for a solution,
You asked nothing of me in any comment/post in THIS thread. 
THIS thread is the current conversation, cite your other comments in other threads if they are relevant to the discussion at hand. Otherwise, I could care less what you claimed to have covered in other nefarious threads. 

Your hilarious description of the WA state law tells me all I really need to know,
There's that denialism and intellectual cowardice, again. 

you're not super interested in any sort of substantive discussion and would rather be king of the message boards,
Pot meet kettle. 

Nowhere did I state, categorically, that I am "not super interested in any sort of substantive discussion," that's your sophomoric fallacious interpretation. Translation: making excuses why you will only come into this thread with a shotgun approach, spamming the thread with your logical fallacies (appeal to ignorance, appeal to mockery, appeal to ridicule, appeal to emotion, ad hominem arguments, et al), demonstrating it is to YOU who is "not super interested in any sort of substantive discussion" on the subject at hand. 

to which I say mazel tov, good for you, it doesn't interest me.
Then do not post in this thread anymore, let alone DART at all if you're not even serious about having a discussion with anyone. Only incel loser trolls do what you're doing.

Don't forget to drop a Dunning Kroger in there, dude. Thanks, have a good one!
Don't need to, you're the obvious poster child of it and with every retort like this, you announce yourself as such. Literally. 
#50
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@YouFound_Lxam
There needs to be a starting ground for arguments that we can agree on so if you wish to argue, base it in truth or at least try to base it in truth. 

  • TRUTH#1:  Transgenderism is not an ideology, it is not a poltical point of view.  Not all transgender people  even view transgenderism as healthy or normal.  You commit the basic fallacy of overgeneralization by assuming that all people who share one psychological trait must also share one political point of view. 
    • THIS: " Ideology:  "a set of opinions or beliefs of a group or an individual. The transgender movement is an ideology. So I did describe one. "  It is every bit as fucked up a prejudice to say that all transpeople share a set of beliefs as it is to say that all straight men share one set of beliefs
    •  If you want to base your argument in truth you need to remove your biased and false prejudices from the original question.
    • We started this conversation two weeks ago and you scampered.  Part of having a honest conversation is not running away from an argument you can't refute and then reposting your same prejudices elsewhere hoping you won't get refuted again.
  • TRUTH#2: You need to stop lying about your own motivations. 
    • Two week ago you claimed "the LGBT community and ideology is not healthy for society, and must be eradicated."
    • Today it is:  "I don't have a problem with the transgender people"
      • Obviously, eradication is an existential threat.  I believe that you are a threat to me and to LGBTQ people everywhere.  When people threaten me like you did two weeks ago and then come back two weeks later "oh, no....I don't have a problem with the transgender people"  not only can I not believe you, my defense posture is raised even higher because you a threat trying to disguise yourself as a non-threat.
  • TRUTH#3:  You need to stop lying about what biologists say about transgenderism.  Medical schools teach that the transmission of sex to embryos is complicated and not entirely understood.  Every time you say "LGBTQ is not scientific or biological"  you are lying and failing to face the facts as 21st century science has presented them to you.  Here is an excerpt from Scientific American (not a Christian website) article entitled, "Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia"
    • Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”
    • Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.
    • Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY.
    • A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.*
    • Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.
    • And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change.
    • There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior.
    • When the biology gets too complicated, some point to differences between brains of males and females as proof of the sexual binary. But a half century of empirical research has repeatedly challenged the idea that brain biology is simply XY = male brain or XX = female brain. In other words, there is no such thing as “the male brain” or “the female brain.” This is not to say that there are no observable differences. Certain brain characteristics can be sexually dimorphic: observable average differences across males and females. But like biological sex, pointing to “brain sex” as the explanation for these differences is wrong and hinders scientific research.
    • Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.
    • Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.
    • It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.
    • As if the brain and body weren’t complicated enough, another biological factor influences the expression of biological sex in an individual: hormones. Anyone who has gone through puberty has felt the power of hormones firsthand. But like all things biology, hormones cannot be limited to the pubescent idea of “estrogen = female and testosterone = male.”
    • For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.
    • Environmental, social and behavioral factors also influence hormones in both males and females, complicating the idea that hormones determine sex. Progesterone changes in response to typically male-coded social situations that involve dominance and competition. Estrogen, typically linked to feminine-coded behavior, also plays a role in masculine-coded dominance/power social scenarios. Though testosterone levels are different between males and females on average, many external factors can change these levels, such as whether or not a person is raising a child. Differing testosterone levels in both men and women can predict certain parenting behaviors. Even the content of a sexual fantasy can change testosterone levels. The fact is, behavior and environment—like cultural gender norms and expectations—influence sex-related hormones, and the biology of the body and brain itself.






#51
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@ludofl3x
Yes, then I changed my question to something more interesting to me: what's the solution.
So… now you want to know my opinion on a solution to what is a non problem not needing any solution in your opinion? Isn’t that… sort of pointless? For both of us, actually?

ludofl3x isn't interested in an actual debate/discussion. He's just flexing his pencil, trying to make it appear big when it's thinner than a sewing needle. 
#52
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@oromagi
Thats a long comment. You could have just said that you dont know what is male and female, so that we can tell you.
#53
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@oromagi
TRUTH#1:  Transgenderism is not an ideology...
And yet when one does a search in any search engine online, you're instantly proven wrong by many, to include those who are experts whereas you're not. 
Examples: 

The ideology of transgenderism is so pronounced and so widespread that there is no need to describe it in detail. What occasions a statement from the National Association of Scholars on it are several of the ways that that ideology has disrupted American education at all levels. These include:
  • Vitriolic attacks on faculty members and medical professionals who dissent from the transgender orthodoxy2
  • Insisting that faculty members and students divulge their “preferred pronouns” and that others address and refer to people by these pronouns.3
  • The readiness of competitive sports to permit individuals of one sex to compete in single-sex contests of the opposite sex.4
  • The designation of gender-inclusive restrooms on campus. Yale, for example, has 332 such designated restrooms created at the reported cost of $8.3 million.5
  • The insistence that archaeologists and forensic anthropologists cease classifying human skeletal remains as male or female, since we do not know the “gender identification” of the individuals.6
  • Distortion of the medical school curriculum and consequences for healthcare.7
I can go on...and no genetic fallacies (intellectual cowardice move) on your part!! 

Every time you say "LGBTQ is not scientific or biological"  you are lying and failing to face the facts as 21st century science has presented them to you.  Here is an excerpt from Scientific American (not a Christian website) article entitled, "Stop Using Phony Science to Justify Transphobia"
And yet that is EXACTLY what you do when you make retorts like this, using phony science to justify the mental disorder of gender dysphoria as being normal as American Pie, when it so clearly is NOT!!!! 
#54
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@oromagi
Thats a long comment. You could have just said that you dont know what is male and female, so that we can tell you.

Ouch! 
#55
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@TWS1405_2
Yeah, we've long since established that you are too dumb a cunt to know that "exists on the internet" is not "evidence of fact." 

You're wasting your talents on a debate site, when your most obvious true destiny is rage-punching gorillas at the zoo.  It is what you were made for.

#56
FLRW
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In 217 AD a fourteen-year-old Syrian emperor set the tone for his reign when he chose “Elagabalus” the Latinized of the Syrian sun god Elah Gabal as his title. In the four years that followed, Elagabalus was to prove as crass and ineffectual as many of his predecessors. He also made matters worse by displaying a very confused sexual identity.
According to Cassius Dio, Elagabalus became notorious for dressing as a woman. Decked in wigs, makeup, and fashionable frocks, he made a sexual nuisance of himself around Rome and the imperial palace. Before his assassination in 222AD, he married four women and a male athlete called Aurelius Zoticus. However, the emperor’s great love was his charioteer, a slave named Hierocles. Elagabalus apparently “delighted to be called the mistress, the wife, the queen of Hierocles,” and reputedly offered to reward any doctor who could give him female genitalia. Some historians have suggested that contemporaries told these tales to damn Elagabalus’s memory. However, the details do suggest the emperor was frustrated by his gender.
#57
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Can't we all agree that transgenderism is just poor design?
#58
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@<<<TWS1405_2>>>
Yeah, we've long since established that you are too dumb a cunt to know that "exists on the internet" is not "evidence of fact." 

You're wasting your talents on a debate site, when your most obvious true destiny is rage-punching gorillas at the zoo.  It is what you were made for.
WOW! Remarkable psychological projection on your part. 

One could say if it "exists in a book" it is not "evidence of fact." And yet we source books all the time. The internet is just another version of a book. It's up to the reader to pick the right book. You "dumb cunt"!

You're wasting your idiocy on a debate site, when you are most obviously interested in masturbating to the Sears catalog in your mamma's basement. 
#59
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@cristo71
Is it any more or less pointless than posting here at all? I don't understand the problem, which is why I figured I'd ask for a solution, so I could work backwards and see if that helped. Otherwise we are just going to both state our positions over and over again. 
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TWS1405_2
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@FLRW
Can't we all agree that transgenderism is just poor design?
It's antithetical to what nature intended. 
It's precisely why this abnormality has been less than 0.5% of the population.