Choice is clearly a factor in determining sexuality

Author: Vegasgiants

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@Bella3sp
I don't need to prove it.  This is my and the APA position 

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. 

You cant rule out choice if you dont know the cause
Public-Choice
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@FLRW
Men with older brothers are more likely to be homosexual
Men with older brothers are also endemically more likely to be sexually abused.

That isn't genetics. It's environmental.

There is a strong correlation between same sex sexual orientation and being something other than right-handed
Multiple studies have either debunked this statement or had mixed results:




Even so, as Towards Data Science points out, correlation =/= causation:
The maxim “correlation does not imply causation” serves as a useful reminder of how to think about the relationship between two variables X and Y. If X and Y seem to be linked, it’s possible but not certain that X caused Y. It’s also possible that Y caused X or that some third variable (Z) caused both X and Y.
Finally:

There is a subset of gay individuals who have more than one relative in their family that is also gay.
Homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children:



And children are most likely to be molested by people they know:


So there is a much greater correlation between sexual abuse and homosexuality than handedness and other correlations with genetics, especially considering the massive study that literally looked at 417k people and found very little correlation between any sort of gene and homosexuality.
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@Vegasgiants
Not exactly. Sexual attraction may not be a choice, but other things may be. 

Your body may have a feeling to hit someone, but you don't have to. That doesn't react on its own. 
Your mind may suggest to go rob a store, but you don't have to.

All those things are a choice, some things aren't. 
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@Bella3sp
Sexuality is the same thing
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@Vegasgiants
Incorrect. APA itself states: 
"All people choose their partners regardless of their sexual orientation; however, the orientation itself is not a choice." 

So no, APA does not back you up.
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@Bella3sp
Apa style is not the apa.  Lol

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/orientation
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@Vegasgiants
Share exactly where it says it's a choice.
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@Vegasgiants
If anything it says: 
"Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation." 

FLRW
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@Vegasgiants

Why do you think that you are designed to die? If you didn't die evolution could not occur. If you didn't mate with the opposite sex, evolution could not occur.
You are designed to mate with opposite sex unless there are errors in the 3 trillion connections in your brain.
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@Vegasgiants
Also if you check on it, on the top of my article, it says APA.

It's quite literally on the APA website.
I don't think they would have something on their website, they didn't agree with.
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@Bella3sp
So, by everyday elements, that's how my sexual attraction can change? Alright, let's go by that. But when my body goes through those elements, that sexual attraction may or may not change. Do I choose to make it change? No. It changes on its own. I don't have a say, to be like, "hey, because of this can you just start making me feel attraction to females?" 
🤦‍♂️ more word salad. 🙄

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@Kaitlyn
I haven't read into much of the homosexual literature, but I don't understand how a self-deleting genetic expression (i.e. homosexual sex engage procreate) would be so prevalent amongst humans. In an evolutionary sense, it should be selected against because homosexual sex can't procreate, thus the genes won't be passed on.

Unless it's epigenetic and thus activates in certain conditions, how is biological deterministic homosexuality so prevalent? 
1.) Read the selfish gene by Richard Dawkins, a gene isn't self-deleting if it can help reproduce itself. It doesn't need to do that using the exact organism of expression. For example drone hymenopterans don't reproduce, but they help reproduce the genes that created them.
I don't see how homosexuality helps with reproduction at all

I am not convinced this hypothesis is correct for human sexual deviancy even if it is theoretically possible, and even if it was true the sexual deviancy would be a secondary trait; not the one selected for.
Which hypothesis are you referring to? 
The hypothesis is that sexual deviants don't form reproductive relationships. Being "freed" of their own batch of children yet saddled with the instinct to support their bloodline they help siblings, perhaps cousins too; with their kids.

The gene in the sexual deviant is selfishly promoting itself increasing the success rate of nieces and nephews.

To be a selective benefit this requires that the success rate is increased sufficiently to overcome the reduction of offspring. That in itself wouldn't be too surprising, our species is near the top of the "quality over quantity" pyramid when it comes to reproduction.

The reason I am not convinced is because somebody has got to have kids, which means the trait must at least be recessive, and even a recessive trait would have been isolated long ago.

Therefore we know that at most genetics is introducing a vulnerability to sexual deviancy, which is quite an unremarkable statement as everything that happens non-deterministically exists within the boundary of what genetics allows. To say it isn't genetically determined never means genetics has nothing to do with it.

3.) oromagi has formed conclusions about this matter, however I found it nearly impossible to confirm anything related to genetics due to paywalls (I really hate the idea of paywalls protecting scientific literature)
If you're able to get the DOI for the paper, you can bypass paywalls by putting the DOI into SciHub.
What a glorious idea SciHub appears to be. I will certainly try if I get some time this weekend.


If homosexuality isn't a choice and can't be change, but it's also not genetic, what then determines it?
Control systems beyond our conscious control. That can be the subconscious (which is probably the answer), or it could be gene switching (expressed proteins can change even with identical DNA), or it could be a pure chemical equilibrium of some complexity.


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@TWS1405_2
LOL. Glad you reacted that way. Testing waters.

Anyways, just look at my other comments. Respond directly to those. 
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@Public-Choice
So there is a much greater correlation between sexual abuse and homosexuality
Being sexually abused is not a choice, so if homosexuality is in some cases result of sexual abuse, then it cannot be a choice at the same time.

What must be noted is that correlation can only be treated as causation by rule of all other options being excluded.

For example, we know that some people who were sexually abused didnt become homosexual. We also know that many homosexuals werent sexually abused. Therefore, we cannot say that sexual abuse causes homosexuality or that sexual abuse is the only cause of homosexuality.

Clearly, there is something more than just sexual abuse which plays the role in creating a homosexual.

While sexual abuse may increase the chances of person becoming homosexual, there is no direct causation. There are other parts of the causation that are not yet discovered.
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@Kaitlyn
I suspect that, at least in part, car/motorcycle preference can be explained by genetics. In particular, there will be psychological traits (e.g. need for safety = car; preference for freedom = motorcycle) which map onto a stereotypical car/motorcycle preference. But that's just a suspicion. We already know that things like political beliefs are heritable. 
Unless you believe it's all determined by the soul (which has its own problems), on some level, everything comes down to our genetics.
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@Bella3sp
Dude this is the official apa position 

https://www.apa.org/topics/lgbtq/orientation
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@Bella3sp
Finally!!!!  It does not say it CAN'T  be a choice
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@Public-Choice
WebMD is spreading disinformation. There is absolutely zero evidence that a person's genes cause them to be gay.
Please cite where they made this claim, I apparently missed it.
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@Bella3sp
About APA Style
APA Style provides a foundation for effective scholarly communication because it helps writers present their ideas in a clear, precise, and inclusive manner.

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@TWS1405_2
@Vegasgiants
The body just doesn't “do it”  all on its own. It reacts to external stimuli via how the mind perceives it. It’s in the mind. It’s a choice.
 
Yes I chose.  Around age 11.  And I kept that choice


But some people choose and then later chose differently 
Choose to feel sexual attraction towards your pillow. Then tomorrow, change your mind back.

Let me know how that goes.
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@Double_R
Why would I do that?  Choose to be a plumber.   Then tomorrow change your mind
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@ADreamOfLiberty
The hypothesis is that sexual deviants don't form reproductive relationships.
There are these options:

1) Its a part of a genetic chain as reproductive pattern, where, for example two straight people who have sex have 1 in 100 chance of producing a homosexual offspring. Pattern repeats and pattern is inherited. Therefore, even if offspring is heterosexual, that offspring inherits the pattern. When offspring reproduces, his children still have 1 in 100 chance of being homosexual.

2) Its a combination of genes. When male and female have sex, genes are combined in a unique way. Its just not yet discovered which particular combination results in homosexual.

3) Reproduction by reproduction of environment - Certain environment produces homosexuals. As long as that environment reproduces, homosexuals will reproduce even if no homosexual has children.
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@Vegasgiants
Why would I do that?
Are you kidding? Just think of the benefits. You could satisfy all of your sexual desires without having to meet someone else, take them out to dinner, meet their parents, buy them a valentine's gift, etc. You could enjoy yourself without any obstacles, all you have to do is make that choice. Why wouldn't you?

Choose to be a plumber.   Then tomorrow change your mind
I can choose to call myself a plumber. I can also choose to study to become a plumber. I would still need others to pay me for my services before I can honestly say that I'm a plumber, that's not my choice.

Is there any part of this example you found analogous?
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@Double_R
We're in the forum section, this is not a formal debate.
So the formal debate section is for appealing to popularity and this section is for appealing to authority.


It's like hearsay, if you have time to get to the original authority you don't multiply error by using a proxy.
It's not about time, it's about how much effort should be put into any given discission.
It's easiest of all to simply state your opinion.


we would just sit here researching until we are qualified experts ourselves.
Debate makes you an expert faster than anything else. When you can find a teacher who understands that it's quite the blessing. Now imagine if that wasn't true and we were to try and debate without being experts?

That's right, we'd be wasting our time. Just like you waste time by link dumping. Just look at public choice here. Has anyone actually read all those links? Clicked on them?

No, all you did was point out the fact that the WebMD quote said nothing about genes. All that information. All that "expertise." Didn't matter at all to you.

If you are already sure you can't make a good argument for a conclusion you shouldn't be trying to debate it.


Priests study for a lifetime, in fact Occam was clergy I believe. Is it the simpler explanation that all these people who study and debate constantly are wrong about god?
Priests are not studying God, they are studying a book that claims there is a God.
They would say they study god, and they agree with each other so maybe you should trust the experts.


If the question is about whether God exists, that's a question best addressed by science. Priests do not conduct scientific experimentation, so they are not valid proxy's for that question.
How do you know that priests do not conduct scientific experimentation? If they say they do they're the experts and you aren't.


Bella3sp
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@Vegasgiants
It literally- never mind. I'll cut this short.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Now imagine if that wasn't true and we were to try and debate without being experts?

That's right, we'd be wasting our time.
Do you even know what the word expert means? You really think you're an expert because you used Google?

So exactly how many subjects do you consider yourself to be an expert on BTW, because according to you that would apparently be every topic you've ever engaged in.

They would say they study god, and they agree with each other so maybe you should trust the experts.
They study a book claiming there is a God. That is an objective fact.

How do you know that priests do not conduct scientific experimentation?
Because if they did they would show it.
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@Bella3sp
Testing waters.
Ha ha!! Nice try at backpedaling on that obvious word salad. 

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@Double_R
The pillow is a tool, not a focus of sexual attraction. 
The pillow serves the same function as the “pocket pussy.” Just a tool, nothing more. It’s what is sued visually that gets one’s mind off. 

Like you, D_R, could watch transgender men role playing as women screwing one another and get aroused and need release other than five finger Mary. So you either select the pillow or the pocket pussy. Neither of the latter has anything to do with sexuality. 
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What most people dont understand about genes is that different combinations can have same result.

For example, in math these two different combinations have same result:

1 + 5 = 6

3 + 3 = 6

Therefore, it is very likely that there are multiple combinations of genes that result in homosexuality.
Searching for just one gene or one combination that fits all cases could be the reason why they still havent discovered "gay gene".

I believe AI will do better job than humans when searching for such pattern.
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@TWS1405_2
Mhm. My statement was disregarding yours, on purpose. Not completely, but surely some. 

You seem to do the same thing, so I did, as well. In regards to what you said, and how I would respond more effectively, just review my comments. I'm not going through round two of explaining myself. Surely you can do that?