3RU7AL's avatar

3RU7AL

A member since

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Total posts: 13,684

Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
Fair meaning that its fair to say anything is possible?  
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Posted in:
The Real Mening of the Bible
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@RaymondSheen
The Dogon tribe in Africa is known for their knowledge of the Sirius star system, which includes a binary star as Sirius A and Sirius B.

i guess that proves they worship the one true creator of all things
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LOGIC
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@FLRW
Yes, if X=3, Y=2 ,Z=1, and W=49

(3x2)/1 X sqrt 49= 6 x 7= 42
true based on these conditions

what about this one

god + objective-truth + moral-principle + bible = universal-morality

would you call this a "true statement" ?
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1
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Presidential Immunity
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@Double_R
Paying to keep a story out of the public for the purpose (mind reader) of winning election sure sounds to me like a campaign expenditure. Not a lawyer here, but I fail to see how it is not.
if you're arnold schwarzenegger it's not a campaign expenditure
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2
Posted in:
LOGIC
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@FLRW
  (X+Y)/Z  x  sq.rt.(W) = 42
would you call this a "true statement" ?
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1
Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
Fair meaning that its fair to say anything is possible? 
it does appear that proto-religious beliefs were effective social scaffolding that aided human survival

and i think it could be argued "possibly essential"
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2
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LOGIC
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@FLRW
One equation allows you to determine only one unknown value. It is a fundamental rule that you need as many equations as you have unknown values. Four unknowns means that we need four equations to solve the problem.
right

this example is supposed to illustrate how ridiculous logically incoherent arguments can be

like this one

god + objective-truth + moral-principle + bible = universal-morality

god = undefined variable

objective-truth = undefined variable

moral-principle = undefined variable

bible = undefined variable

universal-morality = undefined variable
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1
Posted in:
LOGIC
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@FLRW
 (X+Y)/Z  x  sq.rt.(W) = 42
this is a good example of motivated-reasoning

also known as

putting the horse before the cart

also known as

confirmation bias

also known as

cherry-picking data to support a foregone conclusion

prejudiced reasoning

also known as

failure to solve undefined variables
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Posted in:
The Real Mening of the Bible
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@RaymondSheen
Description: Not believed in
Prophecy: Isaiah 53:1
Fulfillment: John 12:37, 38
i verified one unverifiable written statement from an old book

with another unverifiable written statement from an old book
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The Real Mening of the Bible
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@Stephen
Nope nothing there concerning Jesus . And lets not forget, the messiah was never supposed to have died . He was supposed to have freed the Jews from the Roman yoke, FAIL.  Inherited the throne of David, FAIL .   Become king of the Jews, FAIL.  And bring peace to all earth, FAIL and many other things that was expected of the messiah.  In fact, a careful read of the New Testamant, and one can see that between John the Baptist and Jesus, it appears that John was more a Messiah like figure than Jesus ever was. But he was executed too, (Twice!!!) if the bible is to be believed.
well stated
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@cristo71
Wouldn’t you say it is possible that the human species has been selected by evolution for a predilection toward spiritualism?
that seems fair to say
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Posted in:
Wu Wei - The Way Of The Water
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@Best.Korea
The ones you convince would spread your message further, thus the society of criminals would gradually be eroded.
When there are many restrictions in the world

The people become more impoverished

When people have many sharp weapons

The country becomes more chaotic

When people have many clever tricks

More strange things occur

The more laws are posted

The more robbers and thieves there are
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Posted in:
LOGIC
no claim is automatically logical

in order for a claim to be considered logical, it must be demonstrated and each component defined

for example

something plus something divided by something and then multiplied by the square-root of something = 42


you can't prove me wrong - so it must be true

if you don't believe me then you are just denying mathematical facts
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
It is mycontention that the belief that Theism is illogical, irrational, andunscientific is a strictly unfounded and faith-based belief, it is not based onlogic, reason, or science, and consequently, rather than Theism, it is thatbelief itself that is illogical, irrational, and unscientific. 
no claim is automatically logical

in order for a claim to be considered logical, it must be demonstrated and each component defined

for example

something plus something divided by something and then multiplied by the square-root of something = 42


you can't prove me wrong - so it must be true

if you don't believe me then you are just denying mathematical facts
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2
Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
The things science studies do not“come from” science, they come from observation, experiment, and analysis.Consequently, the scientific evaluation of Theism is necessarily a matter ofobservation of Theism, and what we observe is these guys talking about God, butunable to define God.
you're describing anthropology
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
The Theistic belief that there is atranscendent Spiritual dimension to reality is not refuted by science, andtherefore, it is not “unscientific” any more than dark matter or dark energyare unscientific because they are immaterial at best, and we do not know whattheir nature is.
an extremely general and broadly UNdefined "theistic belief" (is) "unscientific" because it is not rigorously defined, observable, testable, falsifiable data

science is not a belief

science is a method of collecting and validating OBSERVABLE data
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
Physicalism is not supported by science,
nobody nowhere believes in "physicalism" in this way

nobody nowhere disbelieves in the concept of "speed"

nobody nowhere disbelieves in the concept of "heat"

nobody nowhere disbelieves in the concept of "gravity"
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
If you are saying this because of amistaken belief that science doesn’t deal with immaterial things, that is physicalism and it is simply misguided. In science there are plenty of thingsthat are not physical,
everything scientifically observable

is by definition

measurable, quantifiable
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
The simple fact is that science hasnever found a single non-spiritual society of human beings anywhere or at anytime in history.  The experience of thesacred, the common experiential reality of human beings we refer to asSpiritual, is common to all peoples in all times, and it appears to have beenreached independently among peoples and cultures that did not have contact withone another. This certainly leads one to logically conclude that a Spiritualorientation is the natural state of human beings. It is fair to say thathumanity is innately spiritual, which is to say, spirituality is the naturalorienting response to human experience. 
if this premise is accepted

then every "spiritual belief" is equally true

are you a polytheist ?
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
we are arguing if theism is reasonable to accept as true
in order to make a determination

we must examine specific claims
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@zedvictor4
How would you know that a version of theism isn't true.
examine the logical coherence of key claims
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Posted in:
Genocide Joe finally pick$$$ Palestine over Israel.
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@cristo71
I have come to the conclusion that they dream of living in a world devoid of Jews and a Jewish homeland— even if it means the destruction of their own earthly lives and the lives of their children, sadly.
what are you trying to say here ?
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0
Posted in:
Presidential Immunity
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@Double_R
Till then, the fact that you continue to compare these two while leaving out the actual crime alleged here tells me you aren't well versed on the basics. Either that or you're just being fundamentally dishonest. Either way, if you are really interested in the legal theory here I suggest you spend some time googling it instead of pressing me to explain it even though I've said multiple times already that I'm not a lawyer and am really not interested in the legal manutia of this case.
look, just to be clear, i hate trump as much as the next guy

and what you seem to be saying here is that you don't want to haggle over legal details

while at the same time haggling over legal details

paying to kill a story in the middle of a campaign is not a crime

it is not a campaign expenditure if there is evidence that the expense would have happened regardless of the campaign

trump paid to kill similar stories BEFORE he ran for president - so it is reasonable to believe he would have paid to kill this story regardless

killing a story is not and has never been "defrauding voters"
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
Note: Above you said “I dont know what a“spirit” is”, and here you are referring matter of factly to “anythingspiritual or a spirit”, so I think you have conceded that one can certainlydiscuss the concept of Spirit without being able to explicitly know it’snature.  Minimally, you can define spiritas what you are talking about here, and then define God as that thing thoseTheists are talking about over there.    
keep insisting on undefined terms

that's your best tactic
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
It’s not supposed to be easy, yourargument comes down to saying that the vast majority of mankind is, and alwayshas been, unscientific, illogical, and irrational,
just on this one specific topic

of course there are plenty of christian scientists and engineers and doctors and lawyers
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Genocide Joe finally pick$$$ Palestine over Israel.
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@cristo71
Do you find non-sequiturs somehow compelling?
please explain to me exactly which women and children we are morally obligated to slaughter 
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
When you observe the use of the word God by Theists, we cansee that it is used to evoke and sustain a way of seeing the world which cannotbe expressed in any other way.  The wordGod is used in many ways, but primarily to evoke a certain dispositional set ofresponses to human experiences, and to express the personal nature of thoseexperiences.  This is the basis upon which I will logically and scientifically be arguing that Theism is a rational position to take.
so, basically GNOSIS
Created:
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
Nobody thinks of God as an object and attemptsto dispute existence by insisting we objectively define the term negates theprimary concept of transcendence which is at the core of Theism. For logical or scientific understanding, we get nowhere debating what the word“God” stands for, we must look at “How is it used?” if we want to understand itlogically or scientifically. Evaluating the concept of God in that way allows logicaland scientific standards of observation and evidence to be applied. 
you could simply say "god" is incomprehensible and inconceivable
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@Sidewalker
Theism refers to God as a “Spirit”, most commonly described as "transcendent", so arguments about defining/describing God are foolish,
you literally just defined/described "god"
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2
Posted in:
Today a porn star is weaponized against a former U.S. President
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@ADreamOfLiberty
but he doesn't win in a three way and you can't get Biden out of the way because the deep state wants his compliant decaying brain right where it is.
yeah, but 99% of people are only voting for biden because they don't want trump to win

but if everyone knows biden can't win

and RFK can beat trump

then NOBODY will vote for biden
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1
Posted in:
Genocide Joe finally pick$$$ Palestine over Israel.
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@cristo71
Sounds like a conversation Hamas might have had prior to October 7. Do you believe that was a false flag operation or something?
i'm on your side now

can we start slaughtering all the terrorists in prisons now ?

and their families ?

or just the ones in gaza and the west bank ?

don't forget about the west bank

nuke the taliban, they're all terrorists right ?
Created:
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Posted in:
Presidential Immunity
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@ADreamOfLiberty
Basically if you went out to buy an apple, they'll claim you're trying to illegally hide campaign spending because if you don't eat you'll look unhealthy on camera and that might hurt your chances. If you said "I would have bought that apple anyway" they're saying "No you would buy something unhealthy like a snickers bar, our jury will decide these matters".
ok, i wasn't sure which side of this you were trying to represent
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
I won’t mind responding to other people as well but I would appreciate if comments are made after me and Sidewalker are done debating so there are not a lot of distractions or change of the course of the conversation or the topic itself. Thanks. 
not to throw a monkey-wrench into things

but i'm not sure any belief is "scientific"

science is simply a method for gathering and processing and verifying data

people sometimes colloquially employ the term "scientific conclusions" but this is very misleading

even the best data can be interpreted multiple ways

conclusions are never "scientific"

only the data and the method of processing and verifying the data can be considered scientific
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
Can I safely assume that you answered your own question?
i'm genuinely curious if you can map it out
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
At best it can lead you to the conclusion that you dont know because this might be a simulation and Im actually a figment of your imagination and if you believe that I am whats the point in even talking to me. 
do you enjoy dreams ?
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
The claim that our "inner conclusions are a reasonably accurate interpretation" of this external signaling is a bold assumption. Our senses and cognitive biases are known to distort and misinterpret information, so the accuracy of our internal models of reality is far from guaranteed. This only shows we cannot trust our personal experiences and they don’t represent reality. Nothing about this favors any arguments for theism since most of them are based on personal experiences. 
NOUMENON
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
Regardless of the nature of reality, the scientific method remains our best tool for understanding the world today.
Even in a simulated universe, the principles of empiricism, logic and methodological naturalism would still be the most reliable path to knowledge. And even if we are in a simulation universe that does not point in any way to divine creator. The simulation can have natural or non theistic origins. 
well stated
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Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
And if you say that the external reality is simulation too then there must still be an underlying reality that still begs the same questions. This philosophical idea lacks empirical evidence to support it as a comprehensive explanation of reality. It cant be tested or falsified - without that, it remains speculation rather than a reasonable theory.
ok, this is interesting
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Posted in:
Theism is unscientific, illogical, and irrational
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@baggins
This veers towards a solipsistic view in which only the individual's inner experience is real, which is a not a strong philosophical position or at best debatable.
please explain the "problem" with solipsism
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Posted in:
Presidential Immunity
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@Double_R
do you know which specific law was violated in this case ?
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Posted in:
Presidential Immunity
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@ADreamOfLiberty
The Federal Election Commission rules examine this through the lens of whether campaign funds have been put to personal use; the commission applies something called the Irrespective Test. The law says that something is personal if it’s "any commitment, obligation, or expense of a person that would exist irrespective of the candidate’s election campaign."

By that standard, said Emory School of Law professor Michael Kang, "the circumstances and context here are suspicious," but it’s no slam-dunk that the payment was an expenditure on behalf of the campaign.  

"Cohen may have been sufficiently involved in Trump’s personal dealings, perhaps with other similar transactions in the past, that they can credibly argue the hush payment would’ve been handled in similar fashion even if Trump were not a candidate," Kang said.

Former FEC chair Bradley Smith told us he sees evidence from Daniels that places this outside the realm of the campaign.

"Daniels herself has said that years before Trump declared for president, she was threatened about not disclosing any affair, suggesting, if she's telling the truth, that her silence was desired long before Trump became a candidate," Smith said. [[LINK]]

ok

so, NOT specifically paid with campaign money
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Posted in:
Presidential Immunity
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@ADreamOfLiberty
It's also never been considered "campaign spending" regulated by the FEC. It still is not, but pseudo-courts are content to pretend.
using campaign funds and falsifying records is a MISDEMEANOR

and if they left it at that i'm sure trump would be more than happy to pay the fine
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I have spent lot of years mainly figuring out what myself and this reality is all about.
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@MAV99
do you think it would be fair to say "souls" accumulate and process data based on their original design specifications ?
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0
Posted in:
Presidential Immunity
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@Double_R
what's the difference between the arnold schwarzenegger case and the trump case under discussion regarding "defrauding voters" ?
Don't know anything about the Schwarzenegger story. You tell me - did the story contain every element I described above? If so, care to provide a summary? Cause if not, I'm not interested.

this is not a crime in-and-of-itself
I already explained this. Did you read it? Do you have any thoughts on it?

the schwarzenegger case is an example of a tabloid paying for a story in the middle of a political campaign with the intent to kill the story

the article mentions this is COMMON PRACTICE

but strangely, this is NOT CONSIDERED A CRIME


killing embarrassing stories during a political campaign is normal, think of JFK and marilyn monroe


this is not a crime

this has never been a crime
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Posted in:
What's the strongest argument for atheism?
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@MAV99
(IFF) OOC designed "spirit" (AND) "spirit" does what it is designed to do (THEN) "spirit" is controlled by OOC
That is a fallacy
To design does not mean it necessaily controls. 

All you are trying to do is make the original IF-THEN syllogism fit the philosophy I use, which I have said from the beginning isincompatible with the philosophy I use.

it seems like you're saying OOC designed "spirit" to be unpredictable

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Posted in:
Why do people hate Sarah Palin so much?
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@zedvictor4
Sarah who?
exactly
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Posted in:
What's the strongest argument for atheism?
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@MAV99
 takes unto itself to produce understanding. That is not the same as experiance.
"soul" does never learns from experience

but it does learn by osmosis


try this,

does "soul" accumulate data ?
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Posted in:
What's the strongest argument for atheism?
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@MAV99
It is not influenced by its design. It does what it is designed to do. There is  difference to act according to what you are and to act because of an outside influence. Different origins of action.

(IFF) OOC designed "spirit" (AND) "spirit" does what it is designed to do (THEN) "spirit" is controlled by OOC
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0
Posted in:
Today a porn star is weaponized against a former U.S. President
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@Greyparrot
@Best.Korea
RFK beats Biden in head-to-head match



RFK beats Trump in head-to-head match



I don't like either, but the USA simply can't afford another 4 years of Biden. 
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Is it the theory of evolution or evolution?
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@baggins
“Scientific theory” is also not a synonym for a “fact” but consists of our best explanations for certain FACTS so it could be considered as a fact. But the definition of “scientific theory” is more than that as mentioned before
well stated
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