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3RU7AL

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@ebuc
Good concept, tho without input of all humans ---ergo all human cultures---, we may still have some parts of the Trinary Core Code that have uncalled for cracks in the code.
I have a feeling the underlying AXIOMS (moral instincts) are very similar for all social mammals.
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@ebuc
Yes, I agree and it is those instincts that kick in more in some than others, altho when our own detriment is involved in situations where we may have a minute or seconds more to consider our options we may be allowed to override Swarm AI primary codes.
I agree.
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The great atheist deception
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@FLRW
The fact that nobody wants to be unhappy is objective
Not true, Humans are not designed to be happy, or even content. Instead, we are designed primarily to survive and reproduce, like every other creature in the natural world. A state of contentment is discouraged by nature because it would lower our guard against possible threats to our survival. The fact that evolution has prioritized the development of a big frontal lobe in our brain (which gives us excellent executive and analytical abilities) over a natural ability to be happy, tells us a lot about nature’s priorities. Different geographical locations and circuits in the brain are each associated with certain neurological and intellectual functions, but happiness, being a mere construct with no neurological basis, cannot be found in the brain tissue.
Well, this might change your mind slightly, (Connect, Contribute, Cope, Cook (CCCC) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4sRsb0a30Y)
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@ebuc
Next, if only a few humans on Earth, the boy or girl are assumed to have better chance of actually surviving, than infant, so baby is my choice to go before boy or girl
I think that's more of a "rational" choice than a purely instinctive (moral) choice.

It is BECAUSE an infant needs more protection that our instincts (generally) more strongly coax us to protect infants.
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@Tarik
A moral claim cannot be false.

In the same way a statement of opinion cannot be false.

A moral claim cannot be true.

In the same way a statement of opinion cannot be true.
Then what is morality? If you can’t be right or wrong?
MORALITY IS A FEELING.

IT'S A FEELING YOU GET.

IT MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD WHEN YOU DO GOOD THINGS.

IT MAKES YOU FEEL BAD WHEN YOU DO BAD THINGS.

IT ALSO MAKES YOU FEEL GOOD WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE DOING THINGS YOU THINK ARE GOOD.

IT ALSO MAKES YOU FEEL BAD WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE DOING THINGS YOU THINK ARE BAD.

IT'S SIMPLY A MANIFESTATION OF OUR SOCIAL SURVIVAL INSTINCTS.
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@Tarik
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m sure the good book mentions something along the lines of obeying the law of the land so that’s your answer.
Ok, that make sense. 

ALL LAWS ARE MORAL.

LEGAL = MORAL
MORAL = LEGAL
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@ebuc
Ok, well, there's also the fact that some people are born with a "Y" that has an extra, partial leg (not enough to make an "X") and these people tend to manifest a mixture of both male-typical and female-typical physiologies.
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@ebuc
In the Swam Intelligence video the "the boy" was chosen to be run over by car, but then again I dont have list of all the AI options in front of me.
(1) one baby in a stroller
(2) one boy
(3) one girl
(4) one pregnant woman
(5) two male doctors
(6) two female doctors

Who needs to die today?
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@ebuc
the y chromosome came from originally
The "Y" is quite obviously a deformed "X".
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@Tarik
What if you could make an objective case for the goal, like you would be unhappy for eternity if you don’t have this goal. The fact that nobody wants to be unhappy is objective.
You could write a conditional statement.

(IFF) HAPPINESS = MORALITY (THEN) UNHAPPINESS = IMMORALITY

Even if all humans agreed on something, (like avoiding unhappiness) that agreement itself (argumentum ad populum) would not magically transform their opinions into FACTS.
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Another one of my arguments for God's existence
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@Tarik
Lexicography is divided into two separate but equally important groups:

  • Practical lexicography is the art or craft of compiling, writing and editing dictionaries.
  • Theoretical lexicography is the scholarly discipline of analyzing and describing the semantic, syntagmatic, and paradigmatic relationships within the lexicon (vocabulary) of a language, developing theories of dictionary components and structures linking the data in dictionaries, the needs for information by users in specific types of situations, and how users may best access the data incorporated in printed and electronic dictionaries. This is sometimes referred to as 'metalexicography'.
There is some disagreement on the definition of lexicology, as distinct from lexicography. Some use "lexicology" as a synonym for theoretical lexicography; others use it to mean a branch of linguistics pertaining to the inventory of words in a particular language. [**]
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Another one of my arguments for God's existence
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@drafterman
P1. A command is only intelligible if received from a higher authority.  (i.e. a Private in the military commanding a General is unintelligible)
False.
Excellent analysis.
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Another one of my arguments for God's existence
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@Tarik
Actually we don’t
Sometimes, it can be difficult to tell which noun a participial phrase is modifying. In fact, the noun that it is intended to modify may not be stated in the sentence.
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@Tarik
Unfortunately in this game of life the ultimate answer is unknown to me, I just know the basics. Take the Ten Commandments for example.
What is your personal opinion regarding the "objective morality" of copyright law?
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@Intelligence_06
SWARM INTELLIGENCE SOLVES THE TROLLEY PROBLEM.
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@ebuc
In the move the 'Titanic' it was women and children first, not self first fro men, tho we saw in movie some men trying to get into the lifeboats.
Social brainwashing (that takes advantage of our instincts) can override our individual moral grounding to some degree.

Protecting "women and children" is a subversion of "PROTECT YOUR FAMILY".

Our instinct to protect pregnant women is especially strong (and generalized).

For example,

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@ebuc
1} humans will trample their own family to get to oxygen as core genetics kick in,

2} humans will trample others to save their family first,

3} humans will destroy others property to protect their own property?
Well stated.
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@Soluminsanis
Very impressive.

P1. If atheism is true,
ATHEISM = NO OMNIPOTENT OMNISCIENT CREATOR GODS

our sensory perception and cognitive faculties were not designed
More specifically, NOT DESIGNED BY OMNIPOTENT OMNISCIENT CREATOR GODS

to fulfill a specific telos, namely, the acquisition of truth and discerning of reality as it actually is,
Would you say that, (IFF) ATHEISM = FALSE (THEN) HUMANS ARE PURPOSE BUILT TO DETECT AND CATALOG REAL-TRUE-FACTS(?)

Do you really believe that the ultimate goal of humanity is to simply detect reality?


Is this what you think GOD's plan is for us?


but rather, evolved through processes which aimed solely at the passing on of the creature's DNA. 
Non sequitur.

ATHEISM =/= DARWINISM

P2. The passing on of the creature's DNA does not necessarily entail truth. 
Well, an organism must be able to ACCURATELY DETECT REAL-TRUE-reproductive bodies and food.

P3. Therefore the atheist's sensory perceptions and cognitive faculties do not necessarily yield truth.
You inexplicably dropped your conditional.

Let me STEEL-MAN this for ya,

(IFF) ATHEISM = FALSE (THEN) human sensory perceptions and cognitive faculties do not necessarily yield truth for anything not directly related to survival and reproduction.

P4. Therefore if atheism is true,  there is no justification for believing anything to be true.
Except for all sensory detection directly and indirectly related to survival and reproduction.

P5. We intuit some things are in fact true, and do so with proper justification.  
Sometimes "we" do and sometimes "we" don't.

Please make your definition of the aforementioned parameter, "proper justification" EXPLICIT.

P6. Therefore atheism is false.
(IFF) ATHEISM = FALSE (P1) (THEN) ATHEISM = FALSE (P6)

That seems plausible.
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@ebuc
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF (2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY (3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
Ok fine, but then step outside of your presented trinary bubble and see how many  more considerations can be added to your code of three.
Sure, sometimes these get re-shuffled, one can put themselves sometimes (although rarely) second instead of first, or even third in some extreme cases.

But the core structure remains intact.

The core structure remains intact regardless of the circumstances.

NEO risks the destruction of the entire world in order to save TRINITY.
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@ebuc
On the other end we have those who feel they must know, and those type are usually more limited to either yes or no answers to any set of circumstances, and that is less than considerate of a more wholistic set of circumstances.
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
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Another one of my arguments for God's existence
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@zedvictor4
I don't need to...Because you can't find a recipe in a dictionary.....You answered the question.
Great point.
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@Tarik
Then every time you make your “moral” claims you’re wrong it’s that simple. Do you realize what you’re saying here? Your essentially saying your wrong about every belief you hold.
A moral claim cannot be false.

In the same way a statement of opinion cannot be false.

A moral claim cannot be true.

In the same way a statement of opinion cannot be true.
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@Theweakeredge
Any is - you cannot get an prescription of reality from a description of reality. 
Yep.
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@Theweakeredge
Objective morality means that the laws of morals are true independent of anything else, they are like the laws of gravity and the like - however - within any moral argument oughts or in this case, the goals, are subjective - because goals are intrinsically subjective, that means that any morals or anything telling you what you ought to do cannot be objective.
Well stated.
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@Theweakeredge
In other words, your syllogism is neither valid nor sound.
Well stated.
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@Reece101
We accurately predict our own actions in everyday life. And you’re saying we can’t morally judge until it happens.
Please provide a specific example.
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@Tarik
What’s the point of asking me the same question twice?
I don't understand your "answer".

It sounds like you're suggesting people should choose to live "the correct lifestyle" (presumably "objective morality") in order to attain "eternal happiness" (maybe after they die?)

I just want to know (in practical-real-world-terms) what "the correct lifestyle" entails.
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Another one of my arguments for God's existence
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@Tarik
we choose different ones to describe different things like objectivity and subjectivity.
We also describe things like bigfootlochnessspacealiens, that doesn't make them true.
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Upcoming Referendum: Updated Voting Policy!
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@Barney
The idea is to ensure you are at least trying to vote fairly for the debate in question, as opposed to voting as an ideologue."
DETECTING MOTIVE IS FUNCTIONALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM WITCHCRAFT.
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Upcoming Referendum: Updated Voting Policy!
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@Barney
You are extremely reasonable and I'm glad you've chosen to volunteer as a moderator for this site.

The upshot here is that I don't understand the voting policy.

I thought I understood the voting policy, but then my votes were deleted.

Perhaps you could add some links to maybe like 5 "examples of good RFDs" on the rules page itself.
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Who here supports political compass as the best online political alignment test?
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@Greyparrot
Thanks for the link.

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@Tarik
No it means you will be sad if you don’t live the correct lifestyle.
Only immoral people are sad?
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@Tarik
a lifestyle that leads to eternal happiness. 
My explanation of objective morality that you asked for.
Does this mean that if you're sad you're evil?
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@Greyparrot
There was a conspiracy unfolding behind the scenes, one that both curtailed the protests and coordinated the resistance from CEOs. Both surprises were the result of an informal alliance between left-wing activists and business titans. The pact was formalized in a terse, little-noticed joint statement of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and AFL-CIO published on Election Day. Both sides would come to see it as a sort of implicit bargain–inspired by the summer’s massive, sometimes destructive racial-justice protests–in which the forces of labor came together with the forces of capital to keep the peace and oppose Trump.
Excellent reporting.
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@oromagi
Jan 6th was a lynch mob explicitly seeking the public execution of Pence and Pelosi,
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is NOT the case.  I can't seem to find anyone facing charges of attempted murder for this.

John Basil Barnhill said, "Where the people fear the government you have tyranny. Where the government fears the people you have liberty."

This "mob" is a direct result of repeatedly lying to the public to the point where ALL FAITH is lost.

ALL FAITH IS LOST.
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@Reece101
The key point about deontological ethics is not a specific code (this old book says this or that).

The key point about deontological ethics is that your (personal) ethical code must be coherent.
Deontology would dictate that lying is bad regardless if it saved a persons life, correct? 

Why do you think consequentialism is incoherent and not you?
Deontological ethics would not dictate that specifically.

I would phrase it as a conditional statement (IFF) you claim that lying is always evil (thou shalt not bear false witness) (THEN) lying is always evil (regardless of the consequences)

CONSEQUENTIALISM IS INCOHERENT BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PREDICT THE FUTURE (ON MORAL SCALES).

YOUR PERSONAL ABILITY TO PERFORM A MORAL ACTION SHOULD NOT BE CONTINGENT ON YOUR ACCESS TO A SOOTHSAYER.

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@Tarik
Then what do I need to elaborate on?
Please restate (paraphrase or link directly to) your question and or "explaination".
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@Barney
You really only need one rule.

NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
I think history has shown a need for way more than that, given that a vote which contains no insults can be horrific (such as ones which make zero references to the debate in question, or write their own arguments instead of grading the debate in question).
I meant no ad hominem attacks specifically within the debate, although I would imagine ad hominem attacks should also be off-limits for the votes as well.

I would imagine that a bare-minimum RFD should include at least one verbatim quote from each participant from each round of the debate.

For points awarded for "arguments", I would imagine how well or how poorly each participant addressed the ACTUAL debate resolution (with specific verbatim quotes from each) seems pretty clear-cut.

For points awarded for "sources", perhaps how well received the sources were by the opposing side could count towards this metric.

I find "sources" often get dismissed out of hand by opposition, so tailoring your sources to your opponent's preference would seem to be a demonstration of tact.

Regarding your earlier comment that the rules should be established such that they "could be programmed into a computer"

Due to the subjective nature of most debates and likewise their votes, I disagree.
Ok, I thought the whole charade was that judges were supposed to be "objective".

If you're going to flat-out acknowledge "the subjective nature of most debates" then why not throw the rules out and replace them with "moderator's discretion"?

Certainly a set of boolean functions to look for vote length and keywords would be possible, but would be ripe for easy manipulation via copy/pasted word salad. Granted, if anyone put the work into designing a spreadsheet for it, I would gladly try it out, and probably at least incorporate it as an initial quality control check on more complicated votes.
In an ideal world you'd barely have to judge RFDs at all.

However, imagine that a voter has no sense of logic.

For example,  you might encounter an RFD like, PRO elegantly defended the debate resolution of GOD IS GOOD by pointing out that "humans have free-will" and CON was unable to effectively dismantle the concept of free-will and thus I will award the "arguments" category to PRO.

Perhaps that's a bad example.

More abstractly, what if a voter finds a bad or misleading or logically fallacious argument convincing?

Are they still allowed to vote if they obviously read the entire debate and spent a lot of time crafting their RFD and of course avoided ad hominem attacks?

I would argue that they should be allowed to vote and their vote should be allowed to stand.



Should a debate be judged on how convincing the arguments are to the voters (OR) should a debate be judged on LOGICAL COHERENCE ALONE?



Debates are usually pretty subjective territory, so moderation for them needs to be able to read context in a way computers can't (at or least would be extremely difficult).
Ok, perhaps someone could create a template (round 1 CON # dropped arguments, round 1 PRO # dropped arguments, round 1 CON final statement rated for sound logic 1/0)?

I can only imagine trying to read through some of the monster RFDs that dwarf the entire debate itself.

I do feel badly for the moderators who are asked to review thousands of words in order to distill what is essentially some scrap of opinion buried in a pile of words.

While mistakes will inevitably happen, we honestly try. That we're some of the most prolific voters ourselves, should lend some authority from experience on the matter. That our own votes are sometimes deleted does prove we are not perfect, but also shows that we strive to be fair.
And you are heroic.

I'm just trying to make your life a little easier.


Should a debate be judged on how convincing the arguments are to the voters (OR) should a debate be judged on LOGICAL COHERENCE ALONE?
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@Tarik
You don’t understand happiness?
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@Tarik
Okay, so what do you think of my explanation?
Please be slightly more specific.
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@RationalMadman
Capitalism is a rule of nature; Socialism is an attempt to hyperevolve past our base nature, to stop us wanting to get more than others at all times, in any way accumulating more with our accumulated assets (since we are talking pre-money).
A tribal community shares resources.

A family shares resources.

There is no "private control (ownership) of the means of production" in a primordial tribe.

Each individual contributes what they are able to contribute to the family of families.

What you can do with money and interest rates already existed before, but it was literal human soldiers and workers that became the assets that were used to garner more,
You're describing FEUDALISM.

rather than 'cash', literal assets were used to make more. Land, water, food, shelter and women were the origins of patriarchal capitalism and it's something that ran deep in the veins of any and all dominant/domineering empires and regimes throughout history.
FEUDAL MONARCHY IS COMMON IN HISTORY BUT IT IS NOT THE ORIGINAL SOCIAL STRUCTURE.

It is an overassumption that we can undo that by saying 'okay, now everyone share'.
The function of society is systemic.

The solution was never going to be that simple, we have to fuse selfish hardwiring in our DNA and neurology with net-beneficial 'selfless' dedication to the 'whole' community and/or society.
Or, fractionalize society into natural harmony with our primordial instincts.

The more mechanisms, both economically and sociologically, that there are to fuse selfish motive with benefitting the larger group, the better an overall society becomes over time.
Social Democracy is the optimal political system, you cannot change human nature just like that.
I'm not suggesting we, "change human nature" (as if it were monolithic).
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@Barney
Do you actually have any refinements to suggest?
You really only need one rule.

NO AD HOMINEM ATTACKS.
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@Tarik
This seems more like an excerpt rather than an explanation.
The Tao Te Ching is the core of Taoism.

There is no "ten commandments" of Taoism.

And there is no (proper) "summary".

It only takes about an hour to read (or listen to) the whole thing.

There is no teacher.

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@Reece101
Deontological ethics does not necessarily mean all lying is bad-wrong.
Hmm sounding a bit “incoherent” there.
The key point about deontological ethics is not a specific code (this old book says this or that).

The key point about deontological ethics is that your (personal) ethical code must be coherent.
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@fauxlaw
the road to good intentions is paved with hell.
And the road to heaven is paved with evil intentions?
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@oromagi
What America saw 3 weeks ago was ugly.  Shameful mob violence to disrupt a constitutionally mandated meeting of the Congress to affirm that transfer of power. 
Almost as shameful as the Boston Tea Party.
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@RationalMadman
Cuba, Russia, Venezuela, Vietnam, China, Guyana, Nicaragua and quite a few more.
Every single one of those countries began as tribal communities.

Your precious "capitalism" didn't begin until money was invented and even then it didn't really start getting up-to-speed until the 1880's.
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@fauxlaw
No. I accept that government must exist because we are not angels, yet. But, I disagree that government is the only answer, and that seems to be what it thinks, right now.
What specifically are you proposing?

GOVERNMENT + GOOD PEOPLE = PERFECTION

I'm not sure anyone could possibly disagree with this.
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@fauxlaw
Every country began by socialism.
Isn't that just dwelling on the thin shell?
The core of humanity is social.

We cannot survive as individuals.
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@RationalMadman
Actually Fauxlaw has a point. No country starts off socialist, they become it over time.
Name one please.
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