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3RU7AL

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Total posts: 14,582

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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Tarik
Are you familiar with Hedonic Adaptation? [**]
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
I find the concept of "blood quantum" (specifically in reference to "native american tribes") to be especially problematic.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
 Success in education being viewed as "nerdy" or "geeky" (before those terms were considered "cool") has a long history of social stigma (especially with poor people).
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Tarik
It’s necessary if the goal is to get to heaven and if you’re a logical person than it should be.
Why would I want to live forever in a golden box 1,400 miles tall? [**]
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Tarik
Disagreement doesn’t mean subjective,
ob-jec-tive:

1.  (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. [**]
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
Everything you mentioned as "cultural issues" are symptoms of POVERTY.
In part, I think so. Entirely, I think not.
Please be slightly more specific.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
Public policies addressing cultural issues should be specific to the problems sought to be addressed and not have any class or race based criteria imo.
Everything you mentioned as "cultural issues" are symptoms of POVERTY.

How do you propose we "fix" these "cultural issues"?
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Everything what is true
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@Tradesecret
I do follow according to my conscience, though. 
That seems prudent.
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Everything what is true
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@Tradesecret
The KKK do not consider the bible to be their axiom.  What a load of nonsense. 
Not every White Christian is in the KKK. But every KKK member is a White Christian.
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@FLRW
Roughly speaking, the three moral axioms are (i) Live and let live, (ii) Tell the truth to those who have a right to know it, and (iii) Respect the environment. These are subject to three requirements, namely, utility, reasonableness, and beauty.
This sounds interesting.

Do you have any guidelines regarding "who has a right to know the truth" and perhaps how individuals can ("objectively") determine "utility", "reasonableness", and "beauty"?
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Tarik
Disagreement doesn’t mean subjective, people disagree on whether or not the earth is round or flat, it doesn’t make the issue subjective.
You're making another CATEGORY ERROR.

The (general) shape of the planet is empirically demonstrable (and or logically-necessary).

An individual's moral intuition is NOT empirically demonstrable (and or logically-necessary).
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@FLRW
Objective morality is morality that almost everybody in the world has agreed upon, no matter what nation, no matter what century. One example is this: everybody should take care of his or her own family. One cannot find any exception to this rule in any law-abiding community in the world or in history.
Great example.

Is this the only moral axiom you've discovered?
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
It also true that there are problems within the POOR community that are contributing to adverse outcomes. Issues like births out of wedlock and cultural problems discouraging educational achievement (i.e. "acting smart") should also be of "public interest".
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
Data from hospitals suggests than black babies die significantly more often when they're under the care of white doctors
Yep.  Studies show a strong correlation between skin-tone (differences) and a wide range of medical outcomes.

Studies also show a strong correlation between skin-tone (differences) and general human empathetic responses.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
Data on resume response rates suggest that having a black sounding name significantly decreases one's odds of landing a job.
Someone's name is an even less reliable indicator of someone's "genetic heritage" (race) than skin-tone.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Death23
Data on pull-over rates suggests that race is a significant factor in causing a driver to be pulled over.
Isn't that simply discrimination based on skin-tone (not specifically "genetics")?
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
Thanks for the ping.....
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
Either full response to my post or you will get nothing.
If you feel like I've overlooked some "key element" of your position, please let me know, specifically what that "key element" entails.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@TXHG
Obviously logically incorrect. If someone says "there is no such thing as race" they are using the word "race" but are not supporting the concept of races. Similarly if someone defines their anti-raciam as an opposition to the idea of race at all. Are you racist because you have used the word race and therefore reinforced the false idea that race exists? According to your own argument, yes!
You win $100.00!!!!!!
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
How is that relevant in racism? I don't choose friends (at all most times) based on those qualities. This isn't applicable, if I answered, "yes" obviously I would be lying, if I said, "no," then you would somehow try to twist it. I don't see the connection in this question whatsoever, I also don't see how this answers my question. Are you or are you not against private racism?
Your personal preference in who you associate does NOT constitute (public) discrimination.

It does however constitute (private) discrimination.

Public companies (companies open to the public) and public services (government) should not be allowed to discriminate on anything other than perhaps the actual ability to complete a specific task (no wheelchair-bound roofers for example).
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
THERE IS SUCH A THING AS RACE
Please present your evidence for the validity of common "racial" categories.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
Also, only public? So you agree with racism as long as no one hears it? What the hell does that mean? 
Does your inner circle of IRL friends contain at least one person of every possible skin-tone and or age and or level of physical and or mental "abledness"?
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
Again, you literally took my words out of context. Please actually employ reason next time.
I'm not a mind-reader.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@TXHG
Yes, agreed. That doesn't equate to anti-raciam being racist.
Anyone who uses the word "race" or "racism" is reinforcing the FALSE idea that there is such a thing as "race".
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
But being against discrimination based on skin color, how is that wrong? Explain.
I'm 100% against (public) discrimination based on skin-tone.

I'm 100% against (public) discrimination based on skin-tone.

I'm 100% against (public) discrimination based on skin-tone.

I'm also 100% against (public) discrimination based on any physical (or mental) characteristics.
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@Theweakeredge
So even if racism use to mean that, it no longer does. 
It started out as an arbitrary category and it is still used to describe an arbitrary category.

The main PROBLEM is that this category has been part of the language so long that people now think it's "SCIENTIFIC".
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"ANTI-RACISM" IS RACIST
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@TXHG
In terms of actually biology etc, race is not real.
People are discriminated against based on their skin-tone (and other empirically discernable characteristics).

The entire discussion of "race" is simply a mind-game devised to FRACTIONALIZE the working-class.
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
Then its not a categorical imperative, for it to be so, it must be non-contradicting in all matters, all of these are unique maxims, and simple shifting what is meant by the moral standards. 
I never understood the CATEGORICAL IMPERATIVE to mean every human being on earth should act as identical robotic clones, each moving in perfect unison.

These (3) MORAL AXIOMS are principles which apply equally to every individual.
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Tarik
...you’ve still yet to prove subjective morality.
It's easy to prove subjective morality.

All you have to do is find something that two people disagree on the morality of.

Like, perhaps, eating meat?
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
In all circumstances, or as moral axioms? Definitely not.
The functional (practical) interpretation of these AXIOMS is highly subjective.

For example,

(IFF) harming yourself serves the goal of protecting yourself from a greater threat (THEN) harming yourself can sometimes be a method of protecting yourself
(IFF) relinquishing some of your personal sovereignty serves the goal of protecting some of your personal sovereignty from total obliteration (THEN) relinquishing some of your personal sovereignty can sometimes be a method of protecting yourself.

(IFF) your family is hostile (THEN) you can re-define your family as your choice of close friends and or allies and or comrades

(IFF) relinquishing some of your personal property (taxes and or protection money) serves the goal of protecting some of your personal property from total obliteration (THEN) relinquishing some of your personal property can sometimes be a method of protecting your property

This fits the CATEGORICAL IMPERATIVE framework (everyone follows these AXIOMS).
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
In other words, you believe truth to be a fact that is believed by a number of people, and then used an axiom for further discussion?
Generally.

I understand that when most people use the words "TRUE" and "FACT", they are actually just stating their personal AXIOMS.

I try to carve the definition (of FACT) down to "empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary" in order to shine a spotlight on (personal ontological) QUALITATIVE AXIOMS.

Shared AXIOMS are NOT "objective".

Shared AXIOMS are "inter-subjective".
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
If that is your understanding, then why do you say it has to be "inter-subjective" Unless I misunderstood you're meaning of that word, what precisely do you mean by inter-subjective?
By "inter-subjective" I mean (understood by all interested-parties to be) "empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary" and or simply AXIOMATIC.

If my subjective perception of a FACT is sufficiently (functionally) similar to your subjective perception of a FACT, then we can treat that (shared) description of that FACT as an AXIOM we can use to build a framework of communication.
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
Truth as in what is true, or what is comporting to reality, as in - a fact. You seem to have a strange definition of the word truth.
REAL = TRUE = FACT

TRUE = REAL = FACT

FACT = REAL = TRUE
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
Kant's whole deal? Yes. Do I think Kant's view is correct. No. See my interactions with Sum1hugme's on the subject.
What do you think of the following moral axioms,

(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR PROPERTY
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
Truth would necessarily have to be objective,
Truth would necessarily have to be inter-subjective.

FACT must be empirically demonstrable and or logically-necessary (and emotionally meaningless).
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
Are you familiar with the CATEGORICAL IMPERATIVE? [**]
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
...but ideas are valuable on their own merit, not who thinks them up.
Well stated.
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
Mathematics is objectively true.
Do you know what a TAUTOLOGY is?
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Tarik
...used what if I were to say 1+1=2 but without that presumption...
This is a classic CATEGORY ERROR.

1 + 1 = 2 =/= I love you.
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
...and I think that they are practically objective from my P.O.V as a human with a mind...
What are your "practically" "objective" "moral" "principles"?
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Could Science prove an "objective morality"?
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@Theweakeredge
Wrong. Based on the definition of objective, something is only objective if it true independent of the mind, I ask you to demonstrate that morality is that.
Well stated.
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Using the terms "racism" and "racist" makes you look stupid
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@HistoryBuff
saying that one race is superior to another is the textbook example of racism. It is not possible to be more racist than that. He believed that black people were genetically inferior to white people. There is no constructive conversation possible with someone like that. 
I'm not finding any specific reference to "racism" in the CoC. [LINK]

You may not threaten or promote violence against any person or persons, barring hyperbole against public figures (e.g., “all politicians should be shot”). Advocacy in favor of terrorism and/or violent extremism, especially as related to hate groups as generally defined by the SPLC, is likewise prohibited.
I'm not sure having an opinion about the intelligence of people who happen to have certain skin-tones counts as "promoting violence".

There's also a mention of "hate speech" but that term isn't rigorously defined.

If someone says something like, "all red-haired people are stupid" is that "hate speech"?

Or if someone says something like, "all liberals are stupid" is that "hate speech"?

Getting banned for excessive ad hominem attacks would seem justifiable (as long as the standards of enforcement apply uniformly to all members).
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Morality - Is Atheism More Reasonable than Theism?
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@PGA2.0
From inception, the OT law pointed to a better way - the Lord Jesus Christ and "living by grace."
(IFF) Jesus absolves criminals who repent (THEN) shouldn't we also absolve criminals who repent?
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Leftwing narratives getting destroyed
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@Theweakeredge
Racism is what I want to redefine,
Ok, thanks for clearing that up.

The term "racism" certainly includes SKIN-TONE, but it also includes the idea that SKIN-TONE is a good indication of an individual's general aptitude.

This is FALSE.

SKIN-TONE is NOT a good indication of an individual's general aptitude.
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Leftwing narratives getting destroyed
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@Theweakeredge
Oh my god, I am actually kind of livid, you took my quotes completely out of context. RACISM, as in the term racism, does more good than harm. Because it gives a group of actions a label that can easily be rallied against.
Well, I guess it's a good thing you had a chance to clarify your statement.

All use of the term "racism" reinforces the idea that skin-tone indicates an individual's general aptitude.

This is FALSE.

Skin-tone does NOT indicate an individual's general aptitude.

THEREFORE, no matter how "convenient" the word might appear to be, "SKIN-TONE BASED DISCRIMINATION" is significantly more accurate.

SKIN-TONE =/= "RACE"
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Leftwing narratives getting destroyed
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@Theweakeredge
Yes, discrimination based on skin color is a thing, therefore I call that racism, as a useful term.
Why would you call "discrimination based on skin-tone", "racism"?

Traditionally "racism" includes discrimination based on skin-tone, but the dangerous and pernicious "snuck-premise" is that "skin-tone is an indicator of general aptitude" (and this is patentably FALSE).

You are flatly incorrect, about dismissing the notion of racism.
I'm not "dismissing" DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SKIN-TONE.

I'm simply trying to point out that SKIN-TONE is NOT an indicator of "general aptitude" (the exact opposite of what the very term "race" is used to imply).

It is irresponsible of you, because your position implies that there is no weight behind the races that people have been attributed.
There is no "weight" behind the (idea of) "races".

There is rather substantial (demonstrable) "weight" behind DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SKIN-TONE.

Such weights: White privlleage,
You can't pretend that "lack of discrimination" = "privilege".

A poor person, regardless of the skin-tone they're born with, is not "privileged".

...and Racism against all different sorts.
DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SKIN-TONE IS REAL.  NOBODY IS DENYING THIS.

You are looking at only the very surface level,
SKIN-TONE IS "THE VERY SURFACE LEVEL" THAT DISCRIMINATION IS BASED ON.

THE WORD "RACISM" PRETENDS THE DISCRIMINATION IS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE SKIN-TONE INDICATES FUNDAMENTAL AND UNCHANGABLE DIFFERENCES IN APTITUDE.

...it is a bad argument for the same reasons, "I don't see any color/race" is a bad argument. 
I don't see "race" and neither do you and neither does anyone else for that matter because there is only ONE human race.

WHAT WE ALL SEE IS SKIN-TONE.

(and skin-tone is not an indication of any individual's general ability or aptitude).
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Leftwing narratives getting destroyed
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@Theweakeredge
It is true that people are discriminated based on skin color.
We agree on this fundamental point.

It does more good than it does harm,
How does discrimination based on skin color do "more good than it does harm?

henceforth we can simply redefine it,
What are you trying to "redefine"?

What is the "original" definition and what is the "new" definition?
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Morality - Is Atheism More Reasonable than Theism?
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@Amoranemix
On top of that, atheism is not even a worldview.
A+
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Leftwing narratives getting destroyed
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@Theweakeredge
Because it was fabricated and has been fabricated for hundreds of years, it has become a real thing.
DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SKIN-TONE IS A "REAL THING".

HOWEVER, "RACISM" (the word itself) contains a seed of brain-washing that spreads and grows every single time you use it.
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Leftwing narratives getting destroyed
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@Theweakeredge
You are flatly incorrect. 
Please be slightly more specific.

You basically say you agree with me on all of my key points and then you say I'm somehow "irresponsible" and "flatly incorrect".
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