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3RU7AL

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Total posts: 14,582

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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@Discipulus_Didicit
...but I see no reason not to say it disproves the idea that I am favored over them.
I'm pretty sure you're conflating specific cases with statistical probabilities.

Zip-code Destiny:

The stories we tell about ourselves — stories of success and stories of failure — often have their beginnings in the distant past. Sometimes, they start in our childhoods. Sometimes, before we were even born.

This idea may sound poetic, but when it comes to economic mobility, there's evidence to back it up. Raj Chetty, an economist at Harvard, is responsible for some of the most powerful evidence, drawing on data from many millions of Americans.

Raj has found that early variables in your life, from the quality of your kindergarten teacher to the neighborhood you grew up in, can have lasting effects. And those effects often result in dramatically divergent outcomes in different parts of the country.

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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
This is the response I intended to ascertain. Because they (adherents of Libertarian free will) argue that their decisions can be influenced but not caused. So then, what do they mean by "influence" and what do they mean by "cause"? I suppose one could argue that cause is the source, and influence is the effect of alteration.

But then that begs the question: does the alteration effect become the cause of the altered event?

That depends. Does one attribute transitively the altered event to the original cause, or does one attribute the altered event to the response of the object? What do you think?
Any modification to a "cause" must itself also have a "cause".

The term "self-caused" is incoherent.

A human brain is not a closed system.

Your actions are "caused" by "something" (your genetics (physical and mental capabilities and instincts), your primary experiences (firmware) and your life experiences and education (software).

The only alternative is RANDOM (which cannot be "will").
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
I'm willing to move forward with any definition you personally prefer.
You submitted your premises. It's only appropriate that you submit their definitions.
ran•dom răn′dəm

  • adj.
    Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: synonymchance.

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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
When you argue "free from" are you using it in a context where its synonymous with "uninfluenced"?
I'm unable to decipher a meaningful distinction between the two.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Free means uncaused.
How would you justify hair-splitting between "uncaused" and "uninfluenced"??
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Once again: that depends on how one defines random. So how do you define random?
I'm willing to move forward with any definition you personally prefer.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
Where did you ascertain this definition? Or did you conceive it yourself?
I'm willing to move forward with any definition you personally prefer.

However, if you select "a free action is one that is un-coerced" keep in mind that is the compatibalist's definition and a compatibalist is a determinist (or indeterminist).

Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God.

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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@RationalMadman
I could go into the details but you're surely smart enough to know you're lying when suggesting that certain ethnicities and genders weren't favoured severely in many cultures throughout history (not always the same ethnicities but usually always males).
Sure, in some spheres, "men" generally "appear" to have some "advantages".

But who exactly are you going to call on to mindlessly sacrifice their lives in battle?

Click to watch 4 minutes,

I wouldn't really call that an "advantage".

And you're missing the most important point.

Each male is not personally "responsible" for their "advantage", therefore there is no BLAME and no GUILT.
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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@RationalMadman
While some do (wrongly) do this, especially due to an older mentality of the poeple themselves being the enemy rather than the system they were forced to be a part of, they are hardly the norm or trend to be describing.
Being outraged at an amorphous "system" is clearly another RED HERRING.

Inevitably that outrage will spill out onto the nearest (perceived) proxy.
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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@RationalMadman
People who truly loathe the injustice of Nazism don't go and be Nazis themselves towards people
Have you even heard of the West Bank and or the Gaza Strip?
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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@RationalMadman
When the 'hatred' being referred to (which wasn't towards the men or whites, it was towards the system that favoured them) was around (and/or is around),
Yes, but rarely is "rage against the amorphous SYSTEM" effective and it most commonly manifests as A BROAD-BRUSH FALLACY against some category of our fellow humans.

...there were undeniable advantages to being of a certain gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation and identification that were made most blatant by how much you lacked compared to the others...
And I agree with you.  HOwEver, the (average working-class) individuals who unwittingly enjoyed this "advantage" (lack of disadvantage) are NOT "responsible" for it.

The beneficiaries are not the INSTIGATORS.

Therefore, modern-day Germans should not suffer "guilt" over WWII.
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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@bmdrocks21
However, these corporations also lobbied to create a multicultural country and there are legitimate reasons for cultures to reject each other and not unite.
It's handy to gather some kindling if you're planning on starting a fire at some point.

It is a terrible feeling to know how deep the plan goes. How far back... It is disheartening to say the least, when you know the pulse of our current populace's pineal glands...petrified..calcified...off.

When you can find things like this in the congressional record (I have been collecting many proofs such as this that explain our 'now'), it is hard to imagine a humanity breaking free, without some kind of 'divine' intervention... :

"If for the sake of Communism it is necessary for us to destroy 9/10ths of the people, we must not hesitate." "We must realize that our party's most powerful weapon is racial tensions. By propounding into the consciousness of the dark races that for centuries they have been oppressed by whites, we can mold them to the program of the Communist Party. In America we will aim for subtle victory. While inflaming the Negro minority against the whites, we will endeavor to instill in the whites a guilt complex for their exploitation of the Negros. We will aid the Negroes to rise in prominence in every walk of life, in the professions and in the world of sports and entertainment. With this prestige, the Negro will be able to intermarry with the whites and begin a process which will deliver America to our cause." Israel Cohen, A Racial Program for the Twentieth Century, 1912. Also in the Congressional Record, Vol. 103, p. 8559, June 7, 1957"
1912, yipes!

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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Do rich people have an advantage over those that are not rich? Yes, and advantage increases if the lower and middle classes distract themselves with petty nonsense believing that their neighbor is their enemy when in reality there is no enemy.
Well stated.

By the way, "middle class" starts at $100,000.00 per year.

Most "working class" people like to call themselves "middle class" which only exacerbates the "problem".
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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@RationalMadman
Give me examples in history of 'hatred' towards the elite and I'll give you at least at a ratio of 5:1, cases of the Elite themselves forming hate-groups in order to kick the struggling minority while they're down.
Well stated.

You are preaching nonsense based on the idea that what the Nazis did to the Jews is somehow equal to the emotional resentment that the latter may feel after the fact, towards the actions of former.
Do you believe that ALL modern-day Germans are "responsible" for the "plight" of modern-day Israelis (they seem to be doing reasonably well by most measures)?

What must be done to 'set a wrong right' often involves deeply passionate drive to get going, that doesn't equate to 'hate' it equates to anger perhaps. It is not the people who are hated, it is the corrupt system and imbalance.
I sort-of agree with you generally, but the core "problem" is "the broad-brush fallacy", NOT an entire category of our fellow humans ("whites", "germans", "non-whites", "women", or "men") and NOT an amorphous "system".

All of this HATE (anger) is being misdirected toward EACH OTHER and away from OUR OWNERS.
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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Thanks.  The link is to an amazing George Carlin clip ("it's a big club, and you ain't in it").
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HATE: YOUR MOST POWERFUL WEAPON
When women hate men, it's because they believe (falsely) that men have the "best deal" and the gain of one is at the expense of the other.

When "non-whites" hate "whites", it's because they believe (falsely) that "whites" have the "best deal" and the gain of one is at the expense of the other.

When "liberals" hate "conservatives", it's because they believe (falsely) that "conservatives" have the "best deal" and the gain of one is at the expense of the other.

And when "whites" hate "non-whites", it's because they believe (falsely) that "non-whites" have the "best deal" and the gain of one is at the expense of the other.

And when men hate "feminists", it's because they believe (falsely) that "feminists" have the "best deal" and the gain of one is at the expense of the other.

And when "conservatives" hate "liberals", it's because they believe (falsely) that "liberals" have the "best deal" and the gain of one is at the expense of the other.

ALL OF THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT OUR CORPORATE OWNERS NEED. 

THE POOR FIGHTING EACH OTHER FOR A SLIGHTLY LARGER CUT OF THE TOXIC GARBAGE HEAP.

Special thanks to @oldoneeye

Click to watch 3 minutes,

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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Athias
@simplybeourselves
Libertarian free will is provably impossible whether determinism is true or false.
Would you mind proving or offering proof of its impossibility?
Libertarian freewill is the idea that a human can make a "decision" that is fully independent of all previous events.

Any "decision" (action) that is fully independent of all previous events is by definition, indistinguishable from RANDOM.

And a RANDOM act is not and cannot possibly be considered an act of WILL.

Ipso facto, libertarian freewill is incoherent (provably FALSE).
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@ebuc
More knowledge may lead to ability to see more options ergo the above is false.
Imagine a chess grandmaster.

Does the chess grandmaster have more (or fewer) options than a novice?

Doesn't the novice face MORE options to move their pieces?

Doesn't the grandmaster know the "best move" for every board?
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
Presuming this feudal hierarchy is aggressive, then we take up arms and defend our lands. But answer me this: what place would feudal hierarchies have in the advent of the moral revolution which informs the anarchy for which I argue?
You will need to immunize your population from coercion.

And I'm not sure how you can possibly do that without creating some sort of "religion".

Can you imagine an entire "society" of (individually sovereign) people willing to actually stake their lives for "give me liberty or give me death"?

The self-interested babies will be the first to collaborate with their invaders, and the rest will die.
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
...conceive and rationalize a moral standard which is fundamentally premised on self-interest. The only moral standard that's consistent with respect to the aforementioned directive is individualism. And by extending the premise of self-interest, we can conceive and rationalize autonomy, sovereignty, and voluntarism.
And how, exactly is your collective of autonomous individual voluntary sovereigns going to protect themselves from a well organized FEUDAL HIERARCHY (without organizing their own FEUDAL HIERARCHY)?
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What would your ideal voting policy look like?
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@User_2006
Yeah, the abandoned (no vote) debates are the worst.

That's why I think the "self-moderated" CIVIL DEBATE would be such a great option.

The best measure of your skill is to actually CONVINCE your opponent (not just sway a crowd of judges).
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@simplybeourselves
Nobody thinks that there isn't a difference between being coerced and not being coerced.
COOPERATION =/= RISK AVOIDANCE
RISK AVOIDANCE = COERCION
COERCION is COERCION whether it is EXPLICIT or IMPLICIT.
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The Standard Argument Against Free Will (TSAAFW)
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@ethang5
God is uncaused and not random.
Please explain your definition of "god" to the best of your ability.

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What would your ideal voting policy look like?
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@Username
My ideal voting policy would be no voting. I advocate for Absolute Hereditary Monarchy (think Saudi Arabia)
So, less "debate" and more DOGMA.
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Pet peeves regarding debates
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@fauxlaw
1. Declaring victory in early rounds of multiple-round debates.
 A rush-to-declare-victory is an almost sure sign of incompetence (missing the point).

Also, a rush-to-disqualify your debate partner is an almost sure sign of a closed-minded-individual (bubble head).
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
Why is true symbiosis extremely rare in the sphere of human cooperation? What informs this claim?
Because humans are basically selfish babies.

If I raise chickens and my neighbor raises pigs, we might agree to trade some number of eggs for some number of strips of bacon.

This is a nearly symbiotic (purely voluntary) relationship (as long as bacon and eggs are not considered necessities).

However, if a third neighbor also raises chickens and undercuts my bacon price, I have to pay more eggs to get my bacon.

The cooperation between neighbor 2 and neighbor 3 comes at "my expense".
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
And how are proto-governments more inclined then governments to become "self"-protecting and "self"-interested?
And like ALL organizations (organisms) it becomes self-protecting and self-interested (proto-government).

One type is not "more inclined" than another.

Although a HOLACRACY takes better care of its own members than a traditional FEUDAL HIERARCHY.
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
Hence the mere absence of government does not suffice. I would never argue nor have I ever argued that.
The absence (or indifference, or incompetence) of government leaves a power-vacuum which will be filled by the savvy.

The anarchy of which I speak requires a moral revolution.
Humans are basically selfish babies.

Any system that REQUIRES humans to act as intelligent, self-reliant, adults is doomed.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@zedvictor4
More knowledge = fewer options = less freewill

Perfect knowledge = 1 perfect option = no freewill
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Pet peeves regarding debates
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@fauxlaw
Both sides should be able to make positive statements and provide logical support.

This is basic.

If you constantly attack without making any positive statements and refuse to clarify your criticisms when paraphrased (Nuh-uh that's not what I said, go back and read the words and prove it, you can't prove me wrong!) you are hiding behind the massive and very blurry wall known as the ambiguity fallacy (also known as the appeal to ignorance).

These individuals may (or may not) have a coherent position (as they often repeatedly claim in vague terms and bald assertions), but regardless, inexplicably refuse to communicate.

They mistakenly believe that the darkness gives them the benefit of the doubt.

They believe that if they can merely cast doubt on certain obscure peripheral details of their opponent's argument (or pepper enough ridicule and ad hominems into their diatribe), then they are automatically proven correct without ever having to state their own argument.

However, based on epistemological standards of evidence, they do not have the benefit of the doubt.

You must show your logic, because without evidence to the contrary, your position is logically incoherent.

I call these creatures the "Gingerbread Men".
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The Kalam cosmological argument
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@OntologicalSpider
I thought I'd discuss the Kalam a bit.. As this seems to be one of the most discussed arguments for the existence of God.

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause
Ok.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore the universe has a (transcendent) cause.
Ok.

Why do you agree or disagree with this argument?
As you've stated it here, you've merely "proved" the NOUMENON (human epistemological limits).

How do you propose we draw a straight line from this "argument" (premise) to any particular "religion"?

Wouldn't it make Pangu and Brahman just as likely as Nanabozho?
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@zedvictor4
And a god principle may be a part of the sequence...
The real question is, "does god have freewill?"

Are "god's" thoughts and actions a result of "god's nature", or are they totally random (free)?
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@simplybeourselves
Nobody thinks that there isn't a difference between being coerced and not being coerced. The only interesting question is whether somebody can, ultimately, determine their own behavior and the answer to that really is no. 
Well stated.
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Determinism vs Free Will
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@Crocodile
Determinism, as suggested by countless philosophers suggests that our minds are simply predictable, our behavior is literally determined from the start.
Indeterminism would be a more accurate description.  There may be some fundamental "unpredictability" (randomness) injected into basic cause-and-effect.

The funny thing is, freewill actually demands cause-and-effect.  I did thus and therefore caused that.  This "decision making" would be impossible without cause-and-effect.

"Unpredictability" (randomness) is not compatible with freewill.  A random "choice" is not an act of will.  Any "good" "decision" must be context-sensitive (informed by history and non-random).  And any "decision" that is informed by history and appropriate to a specific situation cannot be "free" of "influence".

But, who determines our behavior in the first place?
We react to our environment based on our genetic instincts and physical capabilities.

Philosophers state that there's external and internal forces that we can't possibly interfere with.
Did you decide when and where you were born?  Did you choose your instincts and physical characteristics?

If we can not interfere with them, that means, to us, they do not exist.
Do you believe that your accident of birth and physical characteristics "do not exist"?

We have no way of proving if they do exist or do not. So, why pretend that they have power?
Do you believe all humans are born with an equal chance to be healthy, wealthy and wise?

Determinism is further contradicted by the legal and moral obligations of a human being.
That's true.  Many "legal" and "moral" concepts are incompatible with indeterminism.  But I'm sure that invalidates those particular "legal" and "moral" concepts themselves and does nothing to cast doubt on indeterminism itself.

True, parents have control over children. But, do they really? A child has the free will to run away. 
Have you ever tried to simply "run away"?  It's not as easy as it looks.

Free will is literally mastered by happiness and true justification within a human mind.
Please explain.

Once you've achieved a true moral compass, you're free from the philosopher's version of "determinism", and you do have free will.
I see, when you're a slave to "a true moral compass" then you're "free"?

Evil ones are easier to predict that moral ones.
Wouldn't you think that "the evil ones" lack of a "personal code" make them less predictable?

I mean, for example BATMAN won't kill, so, knowing that sort of limits their options, right?

Here's the problem.

There are only two possible options.

(EITHER)

(1) your thoughts (and actions) are contextual (caused by previous experiences, including your biology).

(OR)

(2) your thoughts (and actions) are random (uncaused by any previous experiences).

If you pick #1, then your thoughts (and actions) relate to your memory and the world around you (contextual). This means your thoughts (and actions) are potentially USEFUL TO YOU AND OR OTHERS.

If you pick #2, then your thoughts (and actions) don't necessarily relate to anything at all. And as a matter of fact, statistically, it would be extremely unlikely that any RANDOM thought or action would be even remotely or incidentally USEFUL TO YOU AND OR OTHERS.

Now you might try to mix the two options, some caused, some uncaused, and that's fine.

Your useful thoughts and actions MUST BE CAUSED.

YOur "free" thoughts and actions are TAUTOLOGICALLY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE (99.999% of the time).


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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'm not supporting the practice of studying ancient cultures in that way.
Ok.

To imply that I do support that practice by trying to get me to defend it is misleading.
Ok.

I'm just pointing out that doing so doesn't violate the prime directive.
Ok.
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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Oh and also I am saying I don't like the prime directive.
What do you prefer?
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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The thing that the Federation says is "cultural contamination"/ interference is bad.
Ok.

But don't you set yourself up for a high risk of "cultural contamination" if you put boots-on-the-ground?

Don't they routinely detect incredibly detailed information from orbit?

Couldn't they just send swarms of cloaked probes?

Didn't the Picard accidentally start an entire new religion (in a "pre-warp" society)?

Doesn't that qualify as "cultural contamination"?


How can one live in a society without influencing it?
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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
the Prime Directive, an order that forbids them from interfering in the affairs of primitive civilizations.

Hardcore fans could probably argue it's more complicated than that,

but let's assume it is this simple for the sake of this thread.

My understanding is that the Vulcans merely posted some "warp drive" detectors near planet earth and only "made contact" when they detected a "warp drive".

They weren't studying our breeding habits.

I've never agreed with the surreptitious "monitoring" or "study" of "pre-warp" cultures and I've always believed it's a clear breech of the prime directive.

The episodes you describe are prime examples of how hypocritical the federation is.
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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
How can one live in a society without influencing it?

Thanks for sharing your "rush-to-disqualify".

Nobody's forcing you to have this conversation.
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
True cooperation "should be" based on mutual benefit (usually at a third party's expense).
Why must a mutual benefit come at a third party's expense?
I was careful to say "usually" and not "always" because true symbiosis is extremely rare in the sphere of human cooperation.

Please share what you believe might qualify as a counter-factual example.
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
It's the same story as "The Godfather 2".
Which collective is that? The Corleone family? The Senate? Hyman Roth's investment club?
In the flashback that reveals the origins of "The Corleone Family" rise to power, regular citizens voice their quibbles to "The Godfather", these are quibbles that the individuals find personally significant, but "the police" and or other official authority figures will not take seriously.

By appealing to and assisting those who feel powerless, loyalty and thus power is accumulated by the savvy.

Sometimes it's an "outside" threat, like bands of roving outlaws or raiders.  But once the "outside" threat is vanquished, the organization that vanquished them is loathe to disband.  And like all organizations (organisms) it becomes self-protecting and self-interested (proto-government).

Membership carries special privileges.
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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
@Jeff_Goldblum
Basically, Star Trek's heroes must abide by the Prime Directive, an order that forbids them from interfering in the affairs of primitive civilizations. Hardcore fans could probably argue it's more complicated than that, but let's assume it is this simple for the sake of this thread.

You can literally get high tech plastic surgery to look like a native and spy on them for years at a time...
This in-and-of-itself would appear to be a gross violation of "an order that forbids them from interfering in the affairs of primitive civilizations."

How can one live in a society without influencing it?
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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Any interesting people you can think of that might disagree with me?
(IFF) you believe the "prime directive" is immoral (THEN) you must believe all personal privacy rights and sovereign states rights are immoral
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
COOPERATION =/= RISK AVOIDANCE

RISK AVOIDANCE = COERCION

COERCION is COERCION whether it is EXPLICIT or IMPLICIT.
Elaborate.
True cooperation "should be" based on mutual benefit (usually at a third party's expense).

However, both parties are rarely "equals" and if one side (or both) fears consequences (withholding of resources or violence) then they are being coerced.

The threat doesn't need to be stated plainly.  Passive intimidation is the most effective form of persuasion.
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
How does your example inform on people's alleged proclivity to form vigilante proto-governments as a result of being part of an unaffiliated collective? Were the baldknobbers the standard or a caricature?
The Baldknobbers are a classic, even prototypical example.

A "good" organization of concerned citizens will inevitably run amok (like a homeowner association).

It's the same story as "The Godfather 2".

Imagine a society where everyone thinks of themselves as BATMAN (self-reliant, punishing "evil").

Now imagine if 200 of the (ostensibly well-intentioned) BATMEN formed an organization.
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What would your ideal voting policy look like?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I'm just saying, there are people who I have had to take time to explain why it is impossible for 100% of a group to be better than that group average at something... Took several paragraphs to lay it out and they still don't get it.
I find myself "explaining the obvious" most of the time.

Deism is functionally identical to Atheism.

Science is not Objective.

Free-will can be (EITHER) an act of will (OR) free from influence, but never both.
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
In the absence of a state, ownership claims can be disputed and resolved through cooperation--that is, individuals who don't intend to risk escalation or even reprisals.
COOPERATION =/= RISK AVOIDANCE

RISK AVOIDANCE = COERCION

COERCION is COERCION whether it is EXPLICIT or IMPLICIT.
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The study of philosophy can never yield concrete answers
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@simplybeourselves
Because a god is still a god regardless of if humans are around to observe it. 
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The study of philosophy can never yield concrete answers
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@simplybeourselves
Because a rock is still a rock regardless of if humans are around to observe it. 
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(IFF) you believe in fundamental, inalienable human rights (THEN) you must...
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@Athias
First, the State isn't the same as one's "community."
When people find themselves in an unaffiliated autonomous collective, they form spontaneous groups of "community" enforcers (to enact the "will" of the "community").

These (unchallenged) vigilante groups are proto-governments.

Please let me know what you think of this sterling example,

Click to watch 5 minutes,
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