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3RU7AL

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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
The more reliable experiences are not 100% reliable (Hume), but they don't need to be.
What is "more"? If you don't know what 100% truth is, then how can you claim that something is not 100%?
How do you know you like some flavors of ice-cream unless you've sampled 100% of all flavors of ice-cream?
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
Only NOW can we say it is TRUE that the Sun emits invisible rays of light, and has, as far as we reasonably can tell, (retroactively) ALWAYS emitted invisible rays of light.
But it was always true.
Only RETROACTIVELY.  How could you determine if it was "true" if you lived 10,000 years ago?

The only difference is that the information was disseminated through a standard you accept. But both the opinion and the verification could reach the same conclusion.
At which point, the OPINION instantly evaporates and is transformed into a REAL-TRUE-FACT.

You rely on verification because its reproducible while the opinion, not so much.
We rely on what is reliable.  This much seems obvious.  Trusting OPINION is foolish.
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
And, in reference to your excellent example, just like Schrodinger's wonderful-wonderful cat, the "photographs" are in a "quantum-super-state" up to and until the box is opened.
And is this quantum superstate empirically verifiable?
Shockingly, YES. [LINK]
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
What is an axiom? It's an accepted self-evident truth [NOUMENON, COGITO]. It precedes logic. Logic doesn't create the axiom [ALTHOUGH LOGIC CAN VERIFY AN AXIOM]. Logic as you stated uses it to discover "real-true-facts." But logic isn't the axiom or even the system of axioms. It's a system of reasoning which depends on axioms [AND MUST BE COHERENT AND EFFICACIOUS].
Step ONE, Make your AXIOMS explicit.

Step TWO, Check your logic for internal coherence.

Step THREE, Check your logic for practical efficacy.

That's how you know if your AXIOMS are REAL-TRUE-FACTS.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
When did you "choose" to love them?
When I chose to put their wants and needs before my own. When I sacrificed myself on their behalf, willingly, not begrudgingly or out of obligation or duty.  
Are you suggesting that you don't love someone until you "choose" to "sacrifice yourself"?

Isn't there some sort of "feeling" that you experience at some point BEFORE you actually "choose" to "sacrifice yourself" that may lead you to make that "choice"?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
When did you "choose" to love them?
Love is an action if you are speaking of biblical love.
I see.  So is it your opinion that a small child cannot love?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.

You treat "others" as either allies or enemies.  The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.
Conversely, some may argue that the more enemies you get rid of the better you are to protect yourself.
Just like how the Israelites treated the Moabites!!  SEE! it's 100% BIBLICAL!!
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.
Please be slightly more specific.
We face punishment in this lifetime too by our choices, not only imposed by human laws, justices and injustices, but under the surface imposed by God.
But no specific punishments for specific crimes?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?

Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?

Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?
To an extent. To find out the meaning you have to understand the author's meaning. Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?
Are you familiar with the complete Dead Sea Scrolls?

Does it have the cross-references to authenticate and reinforce its meaning that does not contradict its own writings or the experiential test?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR LAND
The keyword and common denominator is 'your.' What about others? 
These are practical, scalable guidelines that apply equally to individuals, families, companies and nations.

You treat "others" as either allies or enemies.  The more allies you have, the better you are able to protect yourself.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@ebuc
Thanks for the links!
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?
First, what is love? What are you speaking of when you say "love?"
What about the people who raised you from birth?

When did you "choose" to love them?

What about the first person you "fell in love with"?

When did you "choose" to love them?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).
No, it orchestrates punishment during this life too, not only justly but unjustly punishment.
Please be slightly more specific.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?
IMO, you confuse ethical choices with biological needs and personal tastes. Eating food is a biological need. Liking a particular food is a personal taste.
You're missing the point.

Liking a particular food is not a "choice".  It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.

Liking a particular activity ("good" or "bad") is not a "choice".  It's a simple combination of human instinct and personal experience.

(IFF) an all powerful god made humans from scratch, and knew every single factor that would shape their experiences and desires (THEN) that god basically made all of our "choices" before we were even born.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
What it means is that it explains itself.
Is the Qur'an it's own interpreter?

Is the Book of Mormon it's own interpreter?

Is the Bhagavad Gita it's own interpreter?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Correct.  An omniscient omnipotent god created all human desires and instincts and knew exactly what I would do at the dawn of time.
He created us with the ability to desire. He did not choose those desires for us, we do/did.
Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to like eating food?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" each of your favorite foods?

Please describe to me the very first time you "chose" to LOVE another person?

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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
The Word of God.
Which, in your opinion, only specifies punishment AFTER you die (and can be circumvented completely by repentance rendering it MOOT).

Now, where is yours?
(1) PROTECT YOURSELF
(2) PROTECT YOUR CLOSE FRIENDS AND FAMILY
(3) PROTECT YOUR LAND
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Try changing that nature and you will realize you are under bondage.
Correct.  An omniscient omnipotent god created all human desires and instincts and knew exactly what I would do at the dawn of time.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Why is what you do good unless there is a standard of best that is our appeal?
Where's your standard?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
God's word is its own interpreter.
This statement is pure genius.
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@PGA2.0
...provided I interpret it correctly.
There it is.

There is a correct way to interpret any text.
Is there?  What would lead you to believe this?

You must understand the author's meaning to correctly intepret. 
How can you know exactly how much certainty is warranted?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Today, in modern times the lesson is,
1) To obey the laws of the land,
2) To not hold a grudge personally but to love not only our neighbours but our enemies, 
3) To not seek an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth,
4) That these Ten Commandments are still binding but mercy is also at play.
Jesus even elaborates on two of them, adultery and what that means, and hatred and anger in relation to murders.
5) Jesus has met the letter of the law for the believer. He has satisfied its righteousness on behalf of those who have faith and trust in Him. 
Nice!

So all I have to do is obey the logically incoherent, ever changing, perfectly subjective LAWS OF THE LAND.

The rest only applies AFTER DEATH.

And since I was doing this already, basically "The Bible" is WORTHLESS as a day-to-day-real-world guide to "objective" morality.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
This is another RED-HERRING.
No, it is not. Whatever I say you will have another objection.
Only if you fail to produce a perfectly "objective" set of moral guidelines.

Are you sticking with "love"?
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
How can you see a glass of water if you can't see ALL water?
It has to do with your use of proportions like 100%. If you're claiming that we cannot conclude it to be 100% true, that would mean that you have some conception of its being 100% true especially if you're going to relate our "current state." I'm essentially asking you how can you conceive a notion of 100% while simultaneously being unable to make a conclusion 100%?
It doesn't take an enormous amount of experimentation to discover that some experiences are more reliable than others.

The more reliable experiences are not 100% reliable (Hume), but they don't need to be.

They only need to be reliable enough to be useful.

Efficacy.
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
For example, Plato's Parable of the MMORPG. [LINK]
What is the significance in creating a distinction between a subjective judgement and an intersubjective judgement?

Plato's Parable of the MMORPG,

Once upon a time there were a number of people who lived in complete darkness and the only thing they could see was their computer screens.

What they saw on their screens was their reality.

The only other people they knew were people in-game with magnificent costumes and weapons.

Sure they had to fumble in the darkness in order to microwave a quick meal, or find their bed when they were exhausted, but those were merely incidental inconveniences.

Only the game was real.  Only the game was shared experience.  Only in-game places and people and items were quantifiable, able to be observed and verified and shared with other players (quanta). 

Sometimes an individual would try to explain what kind of food they ate or describe their room (private/personal/unshared knowledge, gnosis) but since none of this information was directly relevant in-game and was fundamentally unverifiable, it was dismissed out-of-hand as unintelligible nonsense.  In fact, even the language they had developed had evolved exclusively for in-game interactions, so there really weren't any proper words for "food" or "room" that were not specifically in-game references, and even more than that, since there was no taste, touch, or smell in-game, there were also no words to properly describe those sensations as well.
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
I do not dispute that it's an opinion. My dispute is that this opinion is excluded from the truth, even when determined after the fact, that it was always true.
And this is a very important point, so I'm glad we're both on the same-page here.

It is only true at the point of verification.

And at that point, we can "retroactively" call it "true" colloquially, but it could never have been "true" BEFORE verification occurred.

For example, if someone hypothesized that the Sun emits invisible rays of light, before there was any scientific evidence to support their claim, they would not be "correct" and their OPINION (prediction) would not and could not be considered TRUE.

Up to and until the moment of verification, that person is not a "prophet" or a "liar".  That person is indistinguishable from a lunatic (space-alien abductee).

We should NEVER "take someones word-for-it".

Only NOW can we say it is TRUE that the Sun emits invisible rays of light, and has, as far as we reasonably can tell, (retroactively) ALWAYS emitted invisible rays of light.
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
Your suggestion makes it so that "truth" is subordinate to verification and logic, when it's not.
This is great stuff.

How do you know if something is true?  What is your preferred definition of "truth"?

For example, logic does not create truth. It merely communicates truths using a consistent metric (if this is true, and this is true, then this is true; this is true, so this true and vice versa.)
There must be an original (logically necessary) truth in order to begin your infinite series of (IFF)/(THEN) statements.

It stands to reason that logic must conform to the truths, not the other way around.
How do you come to this conclusion?  Logic is a system of AXIOMS that are tools for discovering REAL-TRUE-FACTS.

I cannot add a false statement to an otherwise true syllogism and argue that it's "true" because of logic.
Of course it's only "true" if it's verified.

The same goes with verification. Using the example above, you cannot correctly characterize a statement as "inaccurate" if its truth has been determined (even post facto.)
"not-true" =/= "inaccurate"

"not-true" =/= "false"

And, in reference to your excellent example, just like Schrodinger's wonderful-wonderful cat, the "photographs" are in a "quantum-super-state" up to and until the box is opened.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
I'm still waiting for your "impartial" "objective" legal code.
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
Only that it contains some inescapable, undeniable truth(s).

We cannot conclude that it is 100% true.
How can you conceive a proportion when your claim is that you cannot perceive the whole?
How can you see a glass of water if you can't see ALL water?
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
You still have not substantiated how "Real, Fact, and/or True" is necessarily scientifically verifiable (and/or logically necessary) and how "Real, Fact, and/or True necessarily excludes opinion.
It's an ontological choice.  Durable, reliable, coherent ideas and or events and or things are things that can be labeled "REAL-TRUE-FACTS".

You've argued that opinion is indistinguishable from Gnosis (private information/subjective experience) and you've argued before that objectivity is logically incoherent. So where does "Real, Fact, and/or True" lie?
It can be found at the intersection we call "intersubjectivity".  It inhabits the ontological interpersonal space we share with "our fellow humans".

For example, Plato's Parable of the MMORPG. [LINK]
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
Was it inaccurate to state that family photos were the content of that chest?
An OPINION has no "truth-value".  It is neither "true" nor "false" by itself.

No. Because before "verification," old family photos being the content of that chest was true.
Before verification, it was pure speculation (which is not "true").

So making the opinion that there were old family photos in the chest was "true" or accurate independent of verification. 
Independent of verification, it is merely an OPINION.

Good example by-the-way.
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There'll never be closure on whether God exists
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@Athias
So once again, I ask: is scientifically verifiable the same as truth?
REAL-TRUE-FACTS must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.

REAL must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.

TRUE must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.

FACTS must be scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
That does not mean they get out of jail free for their earthly crimes. They still need to serve the sentence.  
Based on what?  What's the "objective" universal rule and prescribed punishment?

It's "free" because they merely need to repent (regret) and believe.
So you don't believe in second chances. You don't believe in extending mercy to those who have truly changed their behaviour. 
Do you only believe in second chances AFTER YOU DIE?

Mercy should be built into the LAW.  Mercy shouldn't be ARBITRARY and based on SUBJECTIVE OPINION.

Mercy should be "objective" and universal.  Mercy should be based on EXPLICIT rules so it can be enforced without BIAS.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
Objective morality must be a set of clear, non-context-sensitive, Quantifiable LOGICALLY COHERENT principles and or specific rules that each have specific, prescribed consequences that have NO EXCEPTIONS.

All you've provided are SUBJECTIVE guidelines (no death penalty for cursing a parent) with zero detectable consequences (eternal hellfire + whatever your local government says).
The death penalty was a Mosaic law. Prove otherwise?
Side note: "YOu can't proove me wrongg!" is an appeal-to-ignorance.

But you've already said you don't follow strict Mosaic Law.

So Mosaic Law can't possibly be the standard of your hypothetical "objective-morality".

Is "love" your "objective-morality"??  AND if it is, HOW DO WE APPLY IT IN THE (modern day) REAL-WORLD?

I NEED SPECIFIC (UNIVERSAL) RULES AND PUNISHMENTS.

Because, without specifics, it's PURELY SUBJECTIVE.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
You're conflating moral instinct and our personal agreement with "objective morality".
You can read it that way. What I am doing is expressing a biblical truth. How you take it is up to you.
If it was "objective" it wouldn't be a matter of OPINION.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
I want to know which (real-world) laws and punishments should be changed based on specific, non-opinion-based, "objective" "Bible" verses.
Then you need to answer some questions. 

What would be equal justice for a murderer? Do you have a reply or can anything be equally just?
This is another RED-HERRING.

What does "The Bible" tell us to do?  Today.  In modern times.  Where in "The Bible" does it tell us the real-world "objective" punishments for each of the Ten Commandments?

WWJD??
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
I want hard-and-fast rules (and specific real-world punishments) that apply equally to all people in all situations.
Okay, you want justice, not mercy. 
Justice and Mercy are not mutually-exclusive.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
It's even worse if I do believe in Jesus Christ because that belief (and repentance) turns into an infinite GET OUT OF HELL FREE CARD!!
Because it means that any horrible psychopathic criminal can circumvent and evade justice.

It's "free" because they merely need to repent (regret) and believe.
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Show me your table
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@secularmerlin
One of my main GENERAL objections is to the idea that humans should pursue "objectivity".

Humans are fundamentally and purely SUBJECTIVE.

Quanta is rigorously defined, scientifically verifiable and or logically necessary and MUST BE emotionally meaningless.

Qualia is experiential, personal, private, opinion (GNOSIS) and MUST BE emotionally meaningful.

All "meaningfulness" stems from and is rooted in pure Qualia.

To illustrate this point, I present "Hume's Guillotine" also known as the "is-ought" problem. [LINK]
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Show me your table
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@ebuc
Thanks for the vid!
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the bible is real and YHWH is the one true god, now what?
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@Stephen
The New Testament's over - all message appears, on the surface to be about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek, give away your possessions etc, yet there are clear verses in these scripture that indicate quite the opposite.
Well stated.
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Is the Prime Directive Just?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Sounds good.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
I'm guessing by that standard, I'm already doomed to maximum punishment, so throwing in a few more violations here and there won't make any difference.
That depends on whether you believe in Jesus Christ...
It's even worse if I do believe in Jesus Christ because that belief (and repentance) turns into an infinite GET OUT OF HELL FREE CARD!!
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@PGA2.0
Isn't this a Boolean function?  Any sin no matter how slight and you burn in (unverifiable) hell forever and ever?
The Bible expresses that sin separates us from a holy God.
Which has no real-world ("objective") consequences.

Please attempt to restrict your comments to REAL-WORLD "OBJECTIVE" MORAL LAWS AND THEIR REAL-WORLD "OBJECTIVE" LEGAL PUNISHMENTS.

Sure god and hell and angels and stuff...  That's another conversation.

I want hard-and-fast rules (and specific real-world punishments) that apply equally to all people in all situations.

I want to know which (real-world) laws and punishments should be changed based on specific, non-opinion-based, "objective" "Bible" verses.
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
So, no "objective" punishments (before death).
When the punishment complies with God's righteous standard, yes.
There are no prescribed punishments for violating the Ten Commandments (other than "spiritual-death").

You're making an appeal to "common-sense" eye-for-an-eye punishments, but Jesus specifically distances himself from those in favor of forgiveness.

Which brings up an important point.

If Jesus endorses forgiveness, how can you insist people be (real-world) punished?
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@PGA2.0
Are you talking about immediate, real-life, scientifically verifiable death, or some metaphysical or spiritual sort of "death"?
Spiritual death.
Spiritual death is unverifiable and definitely NOT "objective".

Real-world LAWS don't mention "spiritual death" so I fail to see how the Ten Commandments are even slightly relevant.
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@PGA2.0
Are you suggesting that god endorses all governments and their actions are de facto acts of god's will?
Not always endorses but allows.
If an omnipotent god "allows" anything, they are de facto endorsing it.

In the exact same way, if you stand by and deliberately and knowingly watch a child put their hand on a hot stove, fully knowing of the danger, and deliberately choosing NOT to prevent it, then you are a psychopath.
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@PGA2.0
These cultures adopt a lot of the Ten Commandments. 
Don't you mean "these cultures adopt Hammurabi's Code"?

Or do you mean "these cultures adopt 2 out of the 10"?
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Is morality objective or subjective?
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@PGA2.0
So, god alone, without human assistance, enforces the Ten Commandments?
Ultimately yet sometimes the appearance is that someone gets away with murder (I.e., O. J. Simpson or Hitler).
So in what way are modern LAWS "based on" the Ten Commandments if there are no "objective" earthly consequences prescribed? 

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@PGA2.0
How is this "objective"?
You know that it is wrong to murder, lie, steal, commit adultery, yet you break these commandments. Thus, you know what is wrong. You have an innate sense that these things are objective, not merely your subjective opinion or feelings yet you still do them. You see the principles included and stated in most societal laws throughout history.
You're conflating moral instinct and our personal agreement with "objective morality".

You're also building a flimsy bridge from "don't murder" (OK) and "don't lie" (OK) with "don't covet" (not morally wrong) and "don't worship false gods" (not morally wrong) and "don't dishonor your parents" (not morally wrong).

You're lumping all of these together as if they were all equally "objective" while only making a case for 2 out of the 10.

Objective morality must be a set of clear, non-context-sensitive, Quantifiable LOGICALLY COHERENT principles and or specific rules that each have specific, prescribed consequences that have NO EXCEPTIONS.

All you've provided are SUBJECTIVE guidelines (no death penalty for cursing a parent) with zero detectable consequences (eternal hellfire + whatever your local government says).
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