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@ludofl3x
I personally find your questioning to be nefarious, because the motivations for suggesting what is in the OP is only one thing... the eradication of religion.
It appears Mopac thinks your hypothetical would eradicate religion.
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Parents purposely lie to their kids about Santa to make one day a year "special" for themselves. Even atheist parents. The faithful are not lying. Shove Santa up you ass.
Parents unintentionally lie to their kids about gods in order to scare them into thinking that someone is watching them all the time and will punish them in horrible ways for disobedience (argumentum in terrorem). It's also a great way to avoid the generally unpleasant reality of death. Nobody's going to make it out of here alive.
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@Stronn
Do you think that clear standards of evidence and skepticism are prerequisite to what you call critical thinking?I wouldn't call them prerequisites. Components, rather.
Please detail the method you refer to as "critical thinking".
Also, do you really believe that humans can make "objective judgments"?Yes.
And by "yes" you mean, almost?
I don't mean to suggest that people are able to be truly objective. But, by applying logic and reason, one can make the same judgement that would be made if one were truly objective.
How do you quantify the gap between a sort-of-objective statement and a "truly objective" statement?
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There are plenty who come to the church who were not raised in it.
What percentage of church members do you think are adult converts who were not inculcated as children?
Perhaps 1%?
What percentage of Santa Claus believers do you think are adult converts who were not inculcated as children?
Perhaps 0.001%?
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I'm placing the proposal in a broader context by providing similar examples.The question was in the context of the Swedish proposal. Calm down.
Should all members of a religion be forbidden to engage in parts of their faith being exploited by hate groups?
Clearly they should not.
Should the US consider all runes and Norse imagery racists?
Clearly they should not.
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This makes about as much sense as banning the color red because racists use red paint.Should the US consider all runes and Norse imagery racists?
They also use the roman alphabet. We should ban everything from A to Z.
Some terrorists happen to be Muslims, so they propose we ban all Muslims.
Some white supremacists happen to be Christians (KKK), but strangely we don't generally hear people leaping to the conclusion that all Christians are racists.
The same type of argument is presented for bitcoin.
They say that bitcoin should be banned because it is used by criminals and terrorists and Iran and wikileaks.
They fail to mention that the criminals and terrorists and Iran and wikileaks also use cash and gold and homes and cars and computers.
Should we ban all cash and gold and homes and cars and computers?
This is a classic appeal to fear (argumentum in terrorem) mixed with a potent dash of the broad brush fallacy. [LINK]
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@Mopac
No, we raise our kids in the faith, and there is nothing wrong with that.You should mind your own business.
Strictly hypothetically.
If children were not inculcated before the age of 16, do you think any religion would be sustainable?
Would you perhaps be slightly less defensive if the hypothetical only applied to Muslims?
And of course, atheists, probably atheists more than anyone. Atheists must stop telling their own children about atheism.
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@Fallaneze
There's no logical difference between rejecting "God exists" as untrue versus the positive claim that God does not exist.
Do you believe Zeus exists?
Can you prove Zeus does NOT exist?
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@ethang5
But the actual number of Christians in the world is growing, not declining.
Good point. The number of christians is only declining in the english speaking parts of the world.
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@Stronn
That's not what you mean because you know it makes your position stupid.So what do you do? You debate people who don't really understand theology and shrink away when someone who does tells you that you've been debating superstition of God rather than God.You are committing the fallacy of appeal to motive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_motive
I commonly refer to this as "dime-store psychoanalysis" or "the mind reader fallacy".
Critical thinking alone will get you to truth about as well as tying a bunch of bottle rockets together to construct a space shuttle to the moon.Critical thinking without a love of the truth will simply lead you to reject everything, which actually takes about as much intelligence and thought as believing eveything.I think you are confusing critical thinking with skepticism. Critical thinking is a method for evaluating information in order to make rational, objective judgements about what to believe.
Do you think that clear standards of evidence and skepticism are prerequisite to what you call critical thinking?
Also, do you really believe that humans can make "objective judgments"?
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@keithprosser
If i were to make a claim without a supporting argument it would be playground standard for me to insist you prove me wrong. There is nothing to be gained by engaging in such faux-debates and a rapid bail out is in order! But you might (unwisely!) choose to prove the claim wrong, in which case you would aquire the BoP for some counter-claim.
"You Can't Prove Me Wrong" is the hallmark of an unfalsifiable claim and a Classic Appeal to Ignorance.
For example, Almost all the claims from the anti-science movement revolve around some form of personal incredulity or argument from ignorance.
Proponents of the anti-science movement will usually pick some aspect of a currently accepted scientific theory and argue that it must be wrong because they do not believe it explains some aspect of the natural world. Common examples of this are such claims as "you can't prove global warming is caused by humans," "I don't see how evolution could increase the complexity of an organism," "material properties of the brain cannot presently explicitly explain consciousness so it must be caused by non-materialist processes," or "I don't know how this alternative medicine works, but it does." [LINK]
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@Fallaneze
Please restate the merits of your claim. I don't think anyone here is actually refusing to evaluate your claim.The claim should be evaluated on its own merits. That's the most rational approach.
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@Goldtop
As usual, your reading comprehension and thinking skills are literally non-existent. You should read more books and educate yourself, perhaps take some remedial reading courses so you can understand what other people are saying as opposed to what you believe they are saying.
Ad hominem, short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. [LINK]
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@Fallaneze
It's worth repeating that whichever claim is more rational to believe depends on the preponderance of the underlying evidence.
So how do you pick between Vishnu, Nanabozho, Pangu, and "YHWH" using this "preponderance of underlying evidence" framework?
Mere non-belief is the default position, not disbelief.
This is a distinction without a difference. Do you non-believe in Nanabozho or do you disbelieve in Nanabozho? There is no practical difference.
To disbelieve something based on lack of evidence is an argument from ignorance.
Belief and disbelief are not equal. Existence and non-existence are not equal. UNFALSIFIABLE CLAIMS ARE ALWAYS SUSPECT.
Belief requires evidence.
Existence requires evidence.
Unfalsifiable claims are generally appeals to ignorance and the con-man's weapon of choice.
You can't prove reading this book won't make you a millionaire.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Absence of evidence is not necessarily conclusive evidence of absence, but it is most definitely evidence of absence.
Also, it is important to understand that "absence of evidence is not evidence of existence".
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@Fallaneze
"Pasta" is defined as "a dish originally from Italy consisting of dough made from durum wheat and water, extruded or stamped into various shapes and typically cooked in boiling water." There are physical components indicated by its definition.
All physical pasta is a manifestation of the one true, infinite, ultimate and glorious heavenly pasta which is The Ultimate REality.
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@Fallaneze
Yes, "consciousness" is defined as the state of being awake and aware of one's surroundings. There is no physical component indicated.
I mean, you are presumably talking about a human being. And aren't human beings generally comprised of physical components?
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@Fallaneze
I say "reject to be untrue" because that's not what the atheist experience hosts mean when they say they "reject" the existence of God claims. By "reject" they mean to remain merely non-acceptant.
Due to a lack of compelling evidence.
In the exact same way that you "reject" the existence of Zeus.
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@Fallaneze
Please explain how you can make decisions WITHOUT physics OR chemistry.I don't see how doing that would be relevant in avoiding the implication I talked about.
I think it's pretty clear that you can't make any decisions WITHOUT physics OR chemistry.
But I'm not sure you can provide compelling evidence that anyone REQUIRES magical fairy dust (or anything in addition to physics and chemistry) in order to make a decision.
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@Fallaneze
I haven't heard a refutation of my argument that it violates the law of identity but you are free to give your opinion on the matter.
You just redefine the item with "special" properties. Like when someone says "god is love".
Does this mean that god is a human emotion that facilitates the propagation of the species?
Does love have any physical properties?
Is love omnipotent and omniscient?
No, of course not. In every example "god" is a "special case".
The same is true for the Flying-Spaghetti-Monster.
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@Fallaneze
If all is determined by physics and chemistry then as soon as you explain how physics and chemistry can rationally accept beliefs I'll concede the point.
Please explain how you can make decisions WITHOUT physics OR chemistry.
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@Goldtop
You don't seem to understand how a public forum works.
Anybody can reply to any post. If you want a private conversation, you're in the wrong place.
You refuse to provide specific examples to support your claims, as if you can't be bothered, and yet, inexplicably spend your precious time repeatedly spewing childish ad hominems.
I look forward to your attempts to weasel your way out of this with more bullying tactics.
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@keithprosser
I think its possible to define 'free will' in a way that it does exist and in another away that it doesn't exist.
Freewill is a feeling you get when you don't consciously know all of the causes that lead you to make a particular decision.
Freewill is an emotion.
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@Fallaneze
The pasta monster violates the law of identity as a physical but non-physical entity.
Oh, you mean like god?
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@Fallaneze
The best argument for free will is that it's impossible to rationally accept that free will does not exist.It's not impossible to rationally accept that free will DOES exist.
Please explain.
Can you imagine a sophisticated AI that is indistinguishable from a human?
Would this sophisticated AI necessarily have freewill?
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@Mopac
What does it mean to you personally if you do not have free will?
It means that my actions are the consequence of a vast and complex chain of cause and effect, possibly contaminated with some uncaused and fundamentally unpredictable noise.
What does it mean personally if you do have free will?
It would mean that my decisions are not influenced by previous events (information and or biology) and can magically supersede the wills of other humans who either have no freewill or have less freewill than I do.
Which brings up another interesting point. Do you believe that all humans have an equal measure of freewill?
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@Goldtop
No, they are the words towards someone who rudely butts into a discussion making demands...
You don't seem to understand how a public forum works.
You have, however succeeded in convincing me that your claims are baseless.
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@Mopac
That perhaps more useful than discussing the veracity of free will would be to discuss the effects and utilization of the belief itself.
Ah, so, now you're advocating for the noble lie. [LINK]
In other words, it doesn't matter if freewill is "true" or not, it only matters if the belief generates positive social outcomes.
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@Mopac
And this is a topic about free will, not the existence of God.
If people insist that god gave them freewill, then you're really just begging for it.
It should be clear that whether or not the cogency of evidence compels one into acceptance of the truth of free will, it cannot be said that there is no evidence.
Does a spider have freewill?
After all, if one says there is no evidence, they are in denial of the fact that they had to ignore their perception of making the choice to make such an obviously false assertion.
I'd say that if you believe any human can make a decision that is neither caused, nor uncaused, (or some combination of the two) then you are the one making an obviously false assertion.
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@secularmerlin
I have given as good a definition as many theists have given me to disprove. You do try to justify your arguments logically (though we disagree on some axioms) but that doesn't change the fact that you have only very vaguely described your god concept very vaguely yourself with words like "prime" and "conscious".
The Flying-Spaghetti-Monster defies description.
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@Fallaneze
Maybe we should focus on the distinction between the two options.The level of difficulty is claim-specific. It's not inherently more difficult to provide information that something does not exist. The ratio of true to false claims is irrelevant since (1) claims are case-specific and (2) claims aren't randomly selected.
What are the distinctly different practical implications between (A) an intelligent creator and (B) a mindless creator and (C) no creator at all?
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@Fallaneze
So was that your definition of the flying spaghetti monster?You're conflating the psychological brainstate of believing or disbelieving something with believing or disbelieving a claim. I don't care about psychological brainstates. I only care when people believe or disbelieve a claim. Again, no, I'm not talking about knowledge, just belief or disbelief.
What about the ancient invisible unicorns that make babies cry?
Do you disbelieve in them or do you non-believe in them or do you have some sort of conclusive evidence that they don't exist?
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@Mopac
I find it amazing that you say there is no evidence for free will when the fact that you are choosing to post on this forum is clearly evidence, whether or not it constitutes proof to you.I think you really have to make an active effort to ignore reality to maintain that there is no evidence.
My actions are caused by previous events, with some possibly uncaused random noise injected into the mix.
Do your actions have no cause? What exactly is your "will" "free" from?
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@keithprosser
However they arose, my preferences are my preferences, not anyone else's.
The same can be said for a spider.
It seems that some people insist that free will has to be independent of any influence whatsoever (ie taking an extreme interpretation of 'free') because it makes it easy to dismiss free will on semantic grounds.
That's a slight overstatement. Most people agree that freewill choices have some percentage of deterministic influences, even up to 80 or 90%, but insist that there is some "wiggle room" that is "self-caused" and that is the "free" part.
It's patently obvious we don't make choices free of influences. the most ardent supporter of free will does not deny our choices are influencedy by external factors and internal states such as preferences. Indeed a form of 'free will' independent of desires would be wotrh having,or wanting. That would indded be indistinguishable from 'random behaviour'.
I agree.
But there are entities in the world - such as leaves blowing in the wind - that do not have freewill in any meaningful,sense and entities that do have free will such as DA posters.
But the real question is, whether or not you believe a spider can make one of these freewill choices?
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@Snoopy
Free will is demonstrable, if we make a choice in a specific set of circumstances, realign our will, then make another choice in the same set of circumstances.
The "same set of circumstances" can never be perfectly duplicated.
You'll find that people who have lost their ability to make new memories will say and do the same thing over and over and over and over. [LINK]
It seems like your memory collects information which influences the actions you take.
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@Fallaneze
Choice =/= freewill.Well you're a more hardcore proponent of free will than I am if you believe even plants can choose between different options.
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@Mopac
Loving God for who God is should really be enough.
It didn't seem to be "enough" for the apostle Paul.
He still needed a little godly bullying.
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@Mopac
I don't know whether spiders make choices or not.What I do know is that I have choices, and hard as it might be for me to choose to do what seems right, it is still my choice whether or not I do what I can discern that I ought to do.
And you base those important decisions on your "best judgment" which is based on your experience, which in-turn, determines your actions.
There may be some non-deterministic randomness in the mix, but none of that is either free or will.
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@Fallaneze
Every animal and even most plants can choose between options.Humans to my knowledge are the only ones who can consider taking different courses of action. Non rational entities who act upon instincts don't possess the awareness required to choose between different courses of action.
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@Fallaneze
A spider has many options when choosing a location to spin its web.Define "choice" and explain how a spider makes a choice.
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@Mopac
Spiders make choices, do you believe they have freewill?The ability to choose is what is called "freewill".
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Conversion is a part of the Christian religion. You don't get to have as many followers as you do without it. Not sure what that has to do with them being wrong or right.
If the "YHWH" struck all the baddies with either a blinding light and a voice from the sky or a holy hit-man and a talking donkey, I'm pretty certain we'd have a world population of about 99.999% christians.
My main question is, if god can do this then why haven't they already done this? They did it before, so it can't be "against the rules" or whatever...
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Atheists with no soul concept feel all spiritual experiences are invalid because they are spiritual or had by a theists. Theists are mental deficients and therefore not able to have an experience without mixing supernatural into it. Even though there are atheists who believe in such things, for instance atheistic witches who work with the dead and land spirits.
Many can have very meaningful "spiritual" experiences without mandatory belief in any sort of gods. [LINK]
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The gods are clear. Some people don't want to work with or worship them so why bother.
Well, the "YHWH" seems to have perfected their "fix the bad guy" technique. [LINK]
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@RoderickSpode
Good point. Paul was merely struck down by a blinding light and heard a voice from the sky.Well Paul's donkey didn't actually talk. I don't know if that's significant to your point though. I thought I'd just clarify that. Or did I misread your statement?
I'd settle for that too.
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@Fallaneze
A spider can make a choice."Free will" means the ability to choose between different courses of action. So as long as we can do that, we have free will. We don't always act in accordance with our desires.
Do you believe a spider has freewill?
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@RoderickSpode
You mean if you saw a talking donkey you'd become a Christian?
I mean, if god used it to convert the apostle Paul and he turned out to be some sort of super-christian and if god is all-powerful, I have trouble understanding why god doesn't just send down holy hit-men and talking donkeys to everyone, or at least, you know, the really really bad people.
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@Mopac
We can LEARN from our personal experiences to resist many of the influences of the meatsuit.Sounds about right. And that is actually what is meant by free will. Not that the will is totally free to do whatever it wants or that it isn't tempered by the causal universe. We can make choices, but we are still very much bound by a meatsuit. The meatsuit will always have its influence, but we do have the ability to choose to resist many of its influences.
We do not create our own learning ability and we do not create our own biology and we do not create our primary experiences on which all of our secondary experiences are based.
Everything is deterministic, except for what is non-deterministic (even ghost and gods).
Determinism is incompatible with freewill.
Non-determinism is also incompatible with freewill.
There is no clever mix of the two that is compatible with freewill.
Freewill is an emotion. It's just a feeling you get when you make a choice.
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@RoderickSpode
I think I see your point. Specifically, "fear of the unknown" does not in and of itself = god(s).However, I believe "an abundance of caution" might contribute to a susceptibility for people to fall victim to the "Pascal's wager" scam.I think it could too. But from my experience, Christians have come into belief for various reasons. For myself, it wasn't fear. Or....I didn't become a believer (Christian) due to a fear of hell.
I'd settle for a holy hit-man and a talking donkey.
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@Fallaneze
Is this choice constrained by your desire for either toast or eggs and or breakfast itself?Choosing between toast or eggs for breakfast.
Is this desire the product of your biological imperative to ingest nutrients and your memory of eating eggs and toast previously?
What part of this choice is "free" and what exactly is it "free" from?
Do you consider this particular choice indistinguishable from a "roll of the dice" (essentially random)?
Would a more important or moral choice be subject to some fundamentally different set of influences?
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@FaustianJustice
Bills have been known to hold the woman liable for seeking an abortion, as well as responsible for the upkeep of the pregnancy, that being a terminated pregnancy (even if wholly natural) could call for an inquiry. Not only that, should the woman in question travel out of state to recieve the abortion, she is potentially a criminal when she returns.As it stands (important turn of phrase), through force of law, women's bodies are being commandeered by the state at the behest of another party (the unborn). A specific onus is being placed, not just a ban of a certain medical procedure.
Well stated.
(IFF) embryo/fetus = person (AND) abortion = murder (THEN) every miscarriage is a potential murder or manslaughter case.
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