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The cake guy makes cakes for everyone EXCEPT the gays.  TONS of other "sinners" pay him good money every day.

We have been over this, multiple times.. 

The cake guy claims to make cakes for everyone. 

Maybe he really is secretly a hateful bigot rather than a practicing Christian, but he has never been shown not to make cakes for people because they have sinned. 

It appears as though people construct an image that they can hate, so that it can be attacked.  I don't understand how you fall for it, over and over again.

"sinner" (divorcee, adulterer, murder, thief, tax cheat, Sabbath violator) that walks through your door.

This has never been proven.  What you are actually contending by throwing the real man under the bus to ignore what is actually happening is that people have to cater, divorce, adultery, theft, cheating on taxes, and violating the sabbath.  The people who are behind this obviously seek to destroy the Christian way of life.

if a religion does not, has never and will not preform gay marriages that is consistency. 

your examples of individuals are more about if they actually practice or keep the religion to which they claim the ascribe to.

does the bible allow or condone homosexuality? 

afaik that's a big no, in which case homosexual marriage need not be mentioned, so this claim that "the bible doesn't say you can't" doesn't matter.  

(a)  Marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman; 

- Except when they are between one man and 1000 women.

He observes orthodoxy, not a Mormonism.

          (b)  Sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage; and 

- Which has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality.

Pretty much, actually.  My perception is that the practice of homosexuality has recently been introduced into the subject of marriage through public persona.

is there any legal basis to the inconsistency charges you keep bring up?

My religion certainly teaches that...

          (a)  Marriage is or should be recognized as the union of one man and one woman;

          (b)  Sexual relations are properly reserved to such a marriage; and

          (c)  Male (man) or female (woman) refer to an individual's immutable biological sex as objectively determined by anatomy and genetics at time of birth.

There are no laws prohibiting it

there's nothing that says it's ok or even possible, unlike heterosexual marriages, so to include one but not the other can very easily be interpreted as one being possible/acceptable while the other is not. 

Which makes sense because of what the bible does say about homosexuality which is something you shouldn't do, or is that incorrect? 

Does the bible permit, endorse or promote homosexuality in the same way as heterosexuality and heterosexual marriage? 

Certainly if they were equally acceptable they would be right?  and yet....

So basically, I have the right to believe these things.

And you don't believe I do.

Perhaps I was overly vague.  Your repeated allusion to some sort of loophole is not what I was referring to.  I simply meant that it was normal for a closely held corporation to have respect in the United States according to (fundamental) rights.

Generally, that is how it should be for closely held corporations.  They are already protected by the United States Constitution.  

Most of religious laws are VERy specific.

yes most, not all

when marriage is described in the bible do the verses ever talk about same sex couples in an accepting way?  Because it often says wives, wife, man all describing heterosexual marriage.  Do you know of any verses where it's ambiguous or open to interpretation with regards to gay marriage being acceptable?

since there are specifics about heterosexual marriage, duties, responsibilities it is of importance, but I am unaware of any such instructions towards homosexual marriage, are there any?

I will assume there isn't but open to change my mind, but if there aren't any we'd have to ask why, couple of reasons I can think of, they simply forgot?  not very likely, it just wasn't a thing back then and or it couldn't be a thing back then, it was not accepted, acceptable.

the bible acknowledges man and woman unions,marriages whatever in an acceptable way, but not homosexual ones that I'm aware of.

"Religious organization" means:

          (a)  A house of worship, including, but not limited to, churches, synagogues, shrines, mosques and temples;

          (b)  A religious group, corporation, association, school or educational institution, ministry, order, society or similar entity, regardless of whether it is integrated or affiliated with a church or other house of worship; and

          (c)  An officer, owner, employee, manager, religious leader, clergy or minister of an entity or organization described in this subsection 

HB 1523 allows anyone citing a religiously motivated reason to deny goods and services to the LGBTQ community, as well as those who have sex outside of marriage, or anything else that might rub their dogmatic sensibilities the 

Yeah, that is your spun interpretation of what this legislation does not say.

YOU skipped over arguments lol  I've asked you very direct questions about religion and interpretation of, that you have selectively ignored for obvious reasons imo

in many threads you attack religion because it's vague,inconsistent and open to interpretation, yet in this thread you demand objective specifics, consistency and your interpretation to justify objections, though you don't believe they can exist.  totally opposite of what you have said and believe typically, yeah it's me not you.

Masterpiece Cakeshop will happily create custom cakes for anyone.

Disproves what exactly

"refusing cake to sinners" 

The underlined portion...

lol keep it up, another lame attempt to dismiss and divert.

This is really a matter of you demanding coercion from the government to enforce your own religion while accusing us of what you yourself are doing.

The legislation you referenced in the OP is targeted at RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS.If I am mistaken, show me otherwise. If not, talking about wedding cakes is off topic unless said bakery is a religious organization, and...

it very well could be because marriage is a sacred mystery of the church.

THEREFORE, you must also refuse to make cakes for other SINNERS, like adulterers and divorcees and Sabbath violators.

Because there is nothing in "The Bible" that makes homosexuality any different than any of those other sins.

That has been disproven.

Based on what "Bible" verse?

Our religion does not come from the bible, the bible comes from our religion.So your question is misguided from the get go.We certainly do not accept same sex marriage as being a reality.

lol you ignore most of my questions because answering greatly weakens your argument and you think that goes unnoticed? 

if you think you've succeeded in diverting attention away from that fact you are sadly mistaken.

be pedantic, that's fine.

Please explain how any form of either Fascism or Communism forces people to bake gay wedding cakes.

you being unnecessarily obstinate,  highlighted for emphasis of which contracting for a custom cake in included.

We certainly do not acknowledge homosexual marri as being a reality.

I am arguing that the government should not tell us to choose between betraying our faith and obeying the government.

None of this really has any bearing on my opinion that comparing race to sexual orientation is asinine.

At least one of these things can be kept in the closet.

Religious beliefs are personal reasons, and the idea that he refused sinners is disproven in the claim in the first sentence, now underlined.  

I did not suggest, there was "no reason". 

I believe there was no such standard in his case, and that's part of why he was continually harassed.

Masterpiece Cakeshop will happily create custom cakes for anyone. But like many cake artists, Jack cannot create all custom cakes. He cannot create custom cakes that express messages or celebrate events that conflict with his religious beliefs. [LINK]

KABOOM!!!!

What is the explosion a reference to?  Why is "religious" emboldened?

You should not be forced or threatened into a contract that you don't wish to be a part of, that's fascist and maybe communism. 

BECAUSE "THE BIBLE" DOESN'T PROHIBIT SELLING OR MAKING THINGS FOR SINNERS.

The idea that he is refusing to make cake for sinners, or any grouping of people, HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN.  

Masterpiece Cakeshop will happily create custom cakes for anyone. But like many cake artists, Jack cannot create all custom cakes. He cannot create custom cakes that express messages or celebrate events that conflict with his religious beliefs. [LINK]

I don't like using the word discrimination, because I think it is a loaded word. If you can tell something apart from another, you are discriminating.

Yes, I discriminate based on religion. So does my church. If you were to walk in to my church, you would not be allowed to partake of the eucharist. This is not because we are mean, it is because you are not Orthodox Christian.

When I got married, I married someine nb of the opposite sex as me. I did this because I was being discriminatory. I would not have married someone of the same sex.

I don't believe that something like homosexuality is an innate thing.

One isn't a thief for desiring to take things that don't belong to them. One isn't a homosexual for desiring to have sexual relations with someine of the same sex.

And just as a repentant thief no longer has to be a thief, someone who repents of homosexuality no longer has to be a homosexual.

Race and sexual orientation are not the same. One is a matter of choice one genetics.

The objection wasn't based on religious reasons, BECAUSE "THE BIBLE" DOESN'T PROHIBIT SELLING OR MAKING THINGS FOR SINNERS.

is there only one interpretation of the bible?  because there are numerous bible based churches, they must not agree 100% and yet they are recognized as separate and independent churches, even though they use the same book.

But it WAS NOT a victory for "religious freedom" it was a victory for "artistic expression" = "free speech".

as it should have been, thus my contention that no reason needs to be given.

The objection wasn't based on the design BECAUSE THE DESIGN WASN'T EVEN DISCUSSED.

right as I interpret it, the objection was on the intent, the premade cakes he never intended for gay weddings so I guess he rationalized that if they purchased one and used it for something other than HE intended his conscious was clear.

So basically this cake guy imagines he is personally endorsing every message on every cake he designs. 

sure, whatever you create is part of you, a direct reflection of you, how could it be otherwise?  People want homemade/handmade things vs machine made for that personal touch.

If you setup and cater a KKK banquette aren't you supporting the KKK, either directly or indirectly by adding your creativity and personal touch?

The design itself was never even discussed in the gay wedding case.

what difference that does make, he had a religious objection for it's intended purpose, not that he even needed to give a reason.

oh so the 2 options are quit or change my business to private, and that you don't consider force, what if I don't want to quit or open as private what then?  What is your option or remedy then?  Ah yes you'd force me to, but that's not force, roger that.

This was old testament.

have you gone into any store that does custom work and expect they will do anything you want?

So, if you would like me to create [a fancy cappuccino], I will if I want to, if I don't then I shouldn't be forced to in the context of what is above.  If the reason I don't want to is because of some religious objection then that generally must be accepted because of above, though I don't believe any reason is required due to slavery being abolished.

The bible says that men who practice homosexuality will go to hell.

• If you offer one set of services to one customer, you must offer those same or equivalent services to all paying customers.
  

He was, he was offering heterosexual wedding cakes to anyone who wanted to buy one. 

I think comparing sexual orientation to race is kind of asinine, but I am all for loving everyone.

Is sexual orientation evena protected class to begin with? In the context of a business being allowed to refuse service?

Not where I live. Not to my knowledge.

Show me the holy text.

Are you contending that only religious beliefs with scriptural backing should be protected? If so, it begs the question of what constitutes scripture. For instance, say I had a revelation and wrote the Book of Stronn. Would that count?

If you will only accept mainstream scripture, then I give you the Vedas, the holy texts of Hinduism. In them disability is said to be caused by karma and possession by evil spirits. If I don't want people with bad karma or those possessed by evil spirits in my business, should I be forced to allow them?

First, let me clarify what I am not saying. I'm not saying to be mean to gays. What I am saying is this: If you really believe in the seperation of religion and state, what business does the government have using coersion tactics against Christians, when the government almost never forces Muslims (peace be upon them) to violate their religious faith? Second, i personally WOULD serve gays and anyone else for that matter, BUT the government should let it be my choice to decide what does and does not constitute a violation of my personally helf religious beliefs. Can you understand where I'm coming from? I while I do support President Trump, am not a conservative, or a liberal. I say let gays get married, as long as Christians and other people of faith have freedom of faith practice. I have been disciminated against for my Christian faith a few times, and while it made me mad, I'm still breathing. I affirm that i don't have the right to force people to be Christians, just as non-Christians don't have the right to stop me from practicing my Christian faith. What am I saying then? I am saying liberty of religion, thought, and speech, are two way streets, and I am not bowing to the government. We have too much government, and not enough individual, and collective liberty. For the record, i am a centrist Republican, because the far left targeting only Christians, and not other religious people groups seems hypocritical to me. I don't want to offend anyone, just live my life between Jesus, and myself. I hope that helps. #DoYouBoo

Have you read the book of NUmbers? 31:18: "Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

There is no reason that in opening my business to the public that I have to cater every single wish.

OR OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.

Private vs. Public Company: What's the Difference?

it's a business not a club

The only custom cake that was refused was a gay cake.

sure but it is my belief he has the right to not do something with his creativity, artistry etc if he doesn't wish to

Creating a wedding cake with two boy names on it is not dramatically outside the norm.

but obviously it is because gay marriage is a very new thing

Offering limited service based on a "protected class" is still discrimination.

ok but that's not what he was doing, he was limiting events he would labor for.

Trying to split a hair between "gay person" and "gay wedding" is a distinction without a difference.

one is a noun the other a verb, you don't have to have a gay wedding, afaik you can not stop being gay, or do you think being gay is a choice?  because marriage and weddings are a choice, if you think being gay is one as well that could take things in a different direction.

Or he could have made some reasonable accommodation.  He could have discussed the cake design, and perhaps asked them to add the names to the cake later or something.

I don't recall the specifics but that sound very familiar like that was offered, but I'm not positive on the details.

If you want to hand-pick your customers OPEN A PRIVATE CLUB.

are things like the blacks only online dating etc private clubs?

If you are OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, then you should act as a mercenary and make anything that someone can pay for.

I would

If you can't serve the public, then don't open a business that is open to the public.

there are plenty of business that have restrictions, age being one, female only areas at the gym etc.

I wanr a cake with frosty depictions of puppy murder. Heres my money, you have to make it now.

Offering limited service based on a "protected class" is still discrimination.

The guy wasn't picking his customers though, hence, open to the public.  You incorrectly assume he's picking out gay people for custom services, but there is in fact no evidence that he does not offer custom services on the basis of any so-called "protected-class"

So basically two boy names instead of a boy name and a girl name.

Trying to split a hair between "gay person" and "gay wedding" is a distinction without a difference.

Trying to split a hair between a white person, and white supremacist meeting is a distinction without difference, NOT.  You can't seriously think just because someone doesn't support your lifestyle, that they are basing it upon whatever identity you ascribe yourself.  

And besides, you can practically marry whatever you want, and do any number of things regardless of whether you define yourself by sexuality. 

Someone who is considered bisexual could attend a same sex wedding.  Someone who is married to a member of the opposite sex could buy stuff for a "gay" event, and you must know this.  Guess what buttercup, you aren't entitled to other people's work.

This is no different than you or I.  We can choose to do our jobs, OR quit.

I work for an employer and by doing so I have agreed to the details and expectations of my job.

The cake guy could have chosen to quit making custom cakes.  For everyone.  No problem.  No "forced labor".

either he has to quit making custom cakes or make any custom cake anyone desires, sounds forced to me.

The cake guy presumably made a custom cake for the very next person who offered to pay.

if he chose to, yes, he's not a slave that I'm aware of, it would be up to him to choose to do so.

Well, you agree with "forced labor" it's now just a matter of drawing a line between "routine" and "creative" tasks.

not exactly, I agree they can't discriminate based on a race they hate, race being a noun directly related to the individual, where as a marriage is a ceremony in the previous context, as far as being 'forced to' that's probably too strong a word, if they don't perform within their job scope that can be fired.society has already decided that you can't discriminate on race, religion etc but denying something that is custom, off the menu isn't the same thing in this context of an event,ceremony whatever you want to call it

Was he willing to sell them a cake, yes.

no discrimination, no issue

Was he willing to make them a custom cake for their gay wedding, no.

he claimed an objection to the gay wedding, not the gay individuals.

until very recently gay people were not legally allowed to marry so this objection has been well known and existed for a very long time, this is nothing new.

so in that case what was the remedy to his refusal, a lawsuit and to put him out of business just because he refused to do something that he believed linked him and made him part of something he had an objection to.  that's a threat of forced labor, you either do x or you'll be punished, fascist imo

would you force me to make a custom cake for a bris if I don't want to because I consider it genital mutilation?  Can I just refuse or do I need to justify it and or have a religious objection to it?  I'll sell them a cake sure, but not one that celebrates that ritual.  Should I be sued, put out of business or in jail for not complying?

are people allowed to have different moral objections and act accordingly in the context of what I have posted?  Doesn't do me any good to have a moral objection to something if you are going to force or penalize me for it, again fascist.