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@PGA2.0
For someone presumably using ad hominems in this discussion?For what?
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@EtrnlVw
By this standard, are animals "evil"?Since evil is not a thing, it can't be "created".
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@EtrnlVw
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
This should clear things up. [LINK]
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@EtrnlVw
Not to justify that passage just yet, but have you read that whole chapter?Even if we conclude from that verse alone that God "creates" evil, it's still not an object or a thing. I'll tell you what, read that chapter in full and then I'll post another passage that may balance that one out. First read that chapter (not just that verse) and tell me what ya think.
It sounds like this god was a big fan of the Zoroastrian king Cyrus.
Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
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@PGA2.0
Citation please.When someone uses ad homs instead of laying out their case there is something wrong with their argument, IMO.
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@secularmerlin
Unfortunately testimony is anecdotal evidence and anecdotal evidence is insufficient to claim knowledge.
Here's an example.
I once got drunk and saw flying pink elephants. Not everyone who gets drunk sees flying pink elephants, but I have spoken to other people who report having similar experiences and I find them credible because they reflect my own experience.
This is not a "scientific fact" but it does appear to be "evidence" that corroborates (and validates) my own experience.
To be perfectly clear, it does not "prove" that flying pink elephants really and truly, quantifiably exist. It merely corroborates a qualitative experience.
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@secularmerlin
This is not how the word is used in scientific endeavours. Please do not conflate your personal "theories" with scientific theory.
For example, a hypothesis is either a suggested explanation for an observable phenomenon, or a reasoned prediction of a possible causal correlation among multiple phenomena. In science, a theory is a tested, well-substantiated, unifying explanation for a set of verified, proven factors. A theory is always backed by evidence; a hypothesis is only a suggested possible outcome, and is testable and falsifiable. [LINK]
My first question is what makes you an authority on NDEs? To my knowledge there is no real laboratory data on the phenomena.
NDEs are like eye-witness-testimony in a court of law. They may be unreliable, but if someone has their own first-hand experience that can be described with similar terminology, they might very likely consider these second-hand accounts as corroboration of their experiences. [LINK]
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@Fallaneze
I don't believe there are any. "Lack of evidence for God" refers to theism's lack of arguments on offense.
Please make a positive statement and present your evidence in a logical fashion.
This isn't itself an argument that God doesn't exist.
Only ontological idiots claim "there is absolutely and positively no possible god".
Spinoza actually calculated and presented an irrefutable proof of god in 1677.
Pointing out how beliefs in a deity have been formed throughout history to invalidate or make it less likely that any particular defintion of God exists is a genetic fallacy.
You might call this a problem of inductive reasoning (Hume), but it is not a genetic fallacy.
A genetic fallacy would be, "Stalin once said all people should brush their teeth every day, and since Stalin was evil, I refuse to brush my teeth".
Your implied counter argument, that evidence does not "disprove" your particular god is a naked appeal to ignorance.
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In 1915, the RMS Lusitania, a British ocean liner en route from New York to Liverpool, was sunk by a German U-boat 11 miles off the coast of Ireland.
A little over two decades later, America’s entry into WWII came when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in December 1941, killing over 2,400 American servicemen and civilians.
Foreign Affairs, the journal of the Council on Foreign Relations, which suggested dividing the country up and putting its administration in the hands of the Allies, including the Soviets. When the newly-founded UN put that plan into action in 1945, Korea was arbitrarily divided along the 38th parallel, with the US administering the South and the Soviet Union administering the North.
August 2nd when the USS Maddox, a destroyer supposedly on a peaceful mission in international waters, reported a surprise attack from North Vietnamese torpedo boats in the Gulf of Tonkin.
Israel attempted to get America involved in the [Six Day] war by attacking the USS Liberty, a US technical research ship collecting electronic intelligence just outside Egypt’s territorial waters at the time of the war.
GEORGE H. W. BUSH: . . . babies pulled from incubators and scattered like firewood across the floor…
Nayirah Al-Sabah, daughter of Saud Al-Sabah, the Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States. Her testimony had been written for her by Hill & Knowlton, a PR agency hired by the Kuwaiti government-supported astroturf organization, the “Citizens For A Free Kuwait,” to help sell the Gulf War.
Reports about chemical weapons stashes were reported on before they were confirmed, although headlines boldly asserted their existence as indisputable fact. And any media personality that showed skepticism about the claims being made—even wildly popular ones like Phil Donahue, host of MSNBC’s then highest-rated program—were summarily removed from the air.
But for the would-be controllers of public opinion, a valuable lesson was learned: “Human rights” and “protecting the innocent” is a more effective lie to sell to the public to motivate them for war. So when it came time to sell the war on Libya to the public, the UN-backed, NATO-led aggressors once again donned the cloak of “human rights” by turning to none other than the UN’s Human Rights Council.
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@IlDiavolo
Socialism doesn't need to be an economic system. Chinese economy is pure capitalism, but its whole system seems to be socialist. Every government in the world intervene to different degrees its economy in order to distribute its wealth so to reduce inequality
It's almost as if capitalism and socialism are not mutually exclusive?!
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@Tradesecret
the atheist likes to suggest the following:An all powerful God could eliminate evilAn all good God would want to eliminate evil.Evil existstherefore God probably does not exist.But the question is - what is evil?Evil is something but it is not some thing. It is not a thing so God did not need to make it.In fact God cannot be responsible for making it because it is not a thing.So what is evil?Evil is the absence of good. It is the hole in the proverbial donut. It is a shadow - it is coldness - that exists because of a lack of heat.Evil is therefore not defined by what it is - but by what it is not.Evil is therefore a departure from a perfect standard of good.There must be a perfect standard of good to measure good and evil.Good is closer to the benchmark and evil is further away from it.Therefore evil is a problem for the atheist not for the theist.If there is no God, Then there is no standard of morality.If there are no standards of morality - you can't say anything is evil.Therefore if you recognise evil - this is evidence for God, Not against God.How would you argue against this?
It sounds like you're saying, god is light, and you can't have light without shadow.
But this is not true at all.
It is possible to configure a system of lights that eliminate shadows. [LINK]
I mean, I guess the question is, (IFF) god (light) is everywhere (THEN) there can be no shadows.
And, (IFF) there are shadows (THEN) god (light) is not everywhere.
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@Tradesecret
Evil is the absence of good.
Not quite. It's a little more like this, [LINK]
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@ludofl3x
Let's say tomorrow you wake up to find that indeed, an almighty power DOES exist, and said power has provided evidence overnight to the entire earth of its existence. It's all over the news, it's doing interviews, it's demonstrating its powers, it's explaining the meaning of life, etc. etc. In short, there is literally no way to deny its existence. There's one problem though: it's some god OTHER than the one your grew up worshiping. To use the Christian example, it's definitely not Jesus or the holy spirit or god or the ultimate truth, it's absolutely something or someone different. Good thing for you, though, this deity is granting amnesty from retribution for not believing in it, for a limited time! It knows it could have communicated better, or been more present, but the long and short of it is that he doesn't blame you. He does, however, demand that you present yourself to him within 48 hours, bend the knee and renounce your old belief. You can do it and enjoy his good graces, or you can deny it, and be sent to some equivalent of the punishment you used to fear from your old religion.Would Christians then immediately renounce Jesus? Muslims Allah? Hindus their pantheon? Etc. Etc. Etc. Remember now, this is unquestionable evidence. There's no doubt this thing exists.
Incontrovertible evidence? Sounds like a foregone conclusion. Where do I sign up? Let me be the first to welcome our Holy Overlords.
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@ludofl3x
I mean if the trolley problem were ever really presented, I don't think anyone can know what they'd do...
You're going to love this - [LINK]
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If you think criminals file taxes you're a dip shit.
Please cite your sources.
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@Greyparrot
According to conservative Prof. Antony Davies, Americans who make under $100,000.00 (lower 60%) a year pay almost zero NET income taxes. [LINK]
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Yes. Because 18% of 200 is not 18% of 2000000.
I agree. Mainly because the working poor and middle class have virtually no assets.
How about we pick a reasonable amount because right now I pay 6% State tax on everything I purchase except food.
State sales taxes are generally deductible from your federal income taxes. As long as they are greater than your "standard deduction".
And add a 10% tax on luxury items and stuff like booze and cigarettes, chips, pop.
It appears that some states charge as much as $33.00 per gallon in tax on distilled liquor. I'm going to guess that's close to a 75% tax. [LINK]
Cigarettes are taxed at a federal tax rate of $1.00 a pack which is effectively 100%. If you add the state sales tax to this, it reaches as high as 535% [LINK]
Potato chips are taxed at 4%. [LINK]
There are only a few cities that have implemented a carbonated soda tax which is apparently close to 100%, which is still 435% lower than the cigarette tax. [LINK]
You know not "real" food items. You are an idiot if you think the rich pay more than the poor now.
According to conservative Prof. Antony Davies, Americans who make under $100,000.00 (lower 60%) a year pay almost zero NET income taxes. [LINK]
Trump admitted to paying nothing. I imagine Bill Gates pays little too. Then there is Amazon paying nothing.
Ok, how do you propose "fixing" this "problem"?
And the mobster or drug dealer buying cars and clothes and spending thousands a weeks are paying nothing. Idiot.
Buying cars and clothes? Sales tax? They pay taxes on the money they launder. If someone owns a million dollar home and fails to file their income tax forms, they will be investigated.
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A Federal Sales tax would be a flat rate. It's not rocket science for fucks sake.
If we taxed every working adult exactly 18% of their total assets every year, would that be "fair"?
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So what is the fucking difference? Everyone complains the poor pay and the rich don't. If you only spend 500 dollars you pay 10 percent. If you spend 5000 you pay 10 percent. If you pay nothing now you pay 10 percent. Don't tax food. That is all bull shit to keep the rich from paying tax. If you by a Cadillac Escalate new and a 20 million dollar home not way you pay less then someone who bought a used car, no tax and a 20k home. Idiot.
You started with "federal sales tax" and now you seem to be suggesting a "flat tax".
You are also conflating spending "$" with spending "%" of income.
If we taxed every working adult exactly $2,000.00 a year each, would that be "fair"?
If we taxed every working adult exactly 18% of their total assets every year, would that be "fair"?
Generally under the current system, the working poor pay very little (if any) income tax. But everyone needs to consume to survive. The poor would get hit twice under such a scheme. While currently the poor pay very little tax, under the new system they would have to pay taxes on their consumption, so their total tax bill would rise dramatically. The poor also spend a larger proportion of their total income on consumption goods to survive, so they would ultimately pay a larger percentage of their income in taxes than wealthier individuals.
"Under the Americans for Fair Taxation proposal, taxes would rise for households in the bottom 90 percent of the income distribution, while households in the top 1 percent would receive an average tax cut of over $75,000." [LINK]
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@disgusted
In the narrative versions directly traceable to Niemöller he always started with "the Communists." He always ended with "me." As far as I can tell he always included "the Jews." He usually also named Social Democrats and/or trade unionists. In his first invocation in January 1946 he also included disabled people, whom he called 'the sick, so-called incurables' [in the original German "Kranke, sogenannte Unheilbare," and in a speech shortly thereafter he used another Nazi term for that group, 'lives unworthy of life'].
At that time he also named 'occupied countries' (namely those conquered by Nazi Germany).
In 1946 and 1964 he included Jehovah's Witnesses ["ernste Bibelforscher"].
Once he may have included Catholics--in a 1954 ecumenical Christian (meaning inter-confessional; many Protestant denominations attended, but the Catholic Church only sent observers) conference in Evanston, Illinois. I have not been able to document that use directly, but only in an invocation a decade later, which later went viral ("Dear Abby" van Buren included it in at least seven columns from 1977 to 1993), making that a common version seen today, including on the Boston Holocaust memorial. However in a 1984 column she said she first encountered the quotation "nearly 30 years earlier," thus around 1955. [LINK]
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The working poor spend 90 to 100% of their income between paychecks.I would love a Fed sales tax and no more income tax. That way those that gain their money illegally pay tax too.
Savings accounts among the middle class average less than a single paycheck.
The wealthy ($10 million plus) spend less than 1% of their income.
A federal sales tax would therefore shift the tax burden to the working poor and effectively cut the taxes for the wealthy to nearly zero.
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@Greyparrot
I'm actually enjoying that Battle of Blair Mountain article because I happen to be evicting a roommate in real life.He never paid, so he gets the boot, he has no right to steal property. There's plenty of homeless shelters in the state I live where he can flop in. I really don't care. When someone personally stiffs you for a rent bill, it's really hard to be compassionate, especially when they flash money in your face before heading of to their drug supplier to blow it. So happens when you declare that a place you rent is yours and you don't have to pay nuffin, that's theft and trespassing, and a reason to call the law like they did at Blair Mountain. When you start shooting the law, you're a traitor. When you try to capture the town government by force, that's insurrection. There's a reason why the Mob went into the business of labor unions, and it was definitely as a cover to do similar criminal activities while claiming to be "oppressed" Yo! Joey...pay the man so we can protect yous...from who? You don't wanna know. Nice protection racket the labor unions were in the glory days of crony capitalism.
And then you shot your roommate.
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@Greyparrot
If you are gung-ho for "the right to bear arms", why do you think it is so important?And peaceful labor unions, don't forget.
The best argument is generally considered to be "to prevent tyranny".
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@Goldtop
Good point.
Imagine if all remarried divorcees were excommunicated. We don't allow adulterers in our congregation. No way. No how.
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@Vader
Please cite your sources.Liberal will support having a boy forcefully chemically castrated.
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@Greyparrot
Approximately around 550 miners and labor activists were convicted of murder, insurrection, and treason for their participation in the march from Lens Creek to Logan County and the ensuing Battle of Blair Mountain
How many of the private security contractors were charged with murder? Oh, not a one? What a surprise.
Insurrection? Treason? Seriously? They weren't trying to secede from the United States and start their own country. It sounds like they were striking and got shot at and then defended themselves.
Kaltegärtner’s company, Asgaard German, then went on to cause further gray hairs to German politicians by signing a deal to provide security services for Galadid Abdinur Ahmad Darman, the President of Somalia. Apparently, their mission is no less than restoring security in the war-ravaged area. This may not sound like such a bad thing, except for one thing: Darman happens to be a self-appointed president—one of many Somali warlords who’ve claimed that title and refuse to recognize the authority of the official, United Nations-appointed transition government of the country. One can only imagine what “security services” for such a person might entail, and how he is planning to “restore peace in the area.” [LINK]
Yeah, "mall cops" sounds like a fair characterization.
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@Greyparrot
Like, how would Walmart today be allowed by the government to form a mercenary militia? That hasn't happened since 1861.
Meet the private security force the banksters have hired to oppress you, they're literally the same guys who used to beat up your great-grandparents when they began the American Labor movement over a century ago.
If you're not familiar with The Pinkertons, they were the Blackwater of the late 19th and early 20th century, an armed and often violent private security force for the Robber-Barons and industrialists of the Gilded Age used to keep striking workers in their place. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
Please explain your theory on this one.How about a flat fair tax instead of all this crony crap?
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@Greyparrot
The Marketplace Fairness Act (MFA) legislation navigates the hurdles of becoming a law (or getting shot down). In a nutshell, if passed into law, the MFA would let states compel online retailers to collect sales tax no matter where they are located. Right now, online sellers are only required to charge tax in states where they have a physical presence.
It’s an attempt to level the playing field between brick-and-mortar stores and online retailers. But it’s a well-meaning misstep. While the legislation would only apply to businesses making more than $1 million in out-of-state revenue, it would be crippling to small business owners, most of whom lack the resources to file tax returns in 45 additional states every month. These “millionaire” businesses actually operate at margins of only 10-20%, so their real income and ability to cover these incremental operating costs are comparatively low.
Amazon is spending big bucks to support the proposed legislation. It’s a smart move for them, but a potential catastrophe for small businesses. Basically, the company wants the best of both worlds — they grew so large so quickly in part because they didn’t have to pay sales tax on purchases made in states where they didn’t have a physical presence. But now, as they build more warehouses (taxable presences) across the nation to ship orders faster, they want everyone else to pay taxes, too — and forcing all e-tailers to spend time and money to comply would crush Amazon’s smaller competitors. Of course those administrative costs wouldn’t even be a blip on the Bezos radar. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
Facing a mercenary militia hired by millionaire coal barons, the miners took pains to become organized, adopting a uniform that featured a red bandanna worn around the neck. The miners nicknamed themselves “rednecks” as a point of solidarity. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
Instead of healthy competition we have the pretense of choice. Small business only survives because big business cannot work out a way to do the job that they do. Once they do work out then small business is destroyed. And by small business what I really mean is entire industries, hardware once consisted of small family run stores, now big business runs the hardware business. Competition has been destroyed and if anyone wants to compete, then all they need is a spare $1 billion dollars.
Do you have a spare $1 billion dollars? If not how do you compete? The answer is you cannot, big business is destroying small business and it is going to cost us all a lot of money.
Upon Hope Blog - A Traditional Conservative Future [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
It's not about "getting shot". It's about getting eaten (steamrolled/railroaded) by a bigger fish.At gunpoint? That doesn't sound like a free market. More like Eminent domain nonsense.
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@Greyparrot
The story is about an arch-typical "self-made-man" who gambles and invests and outmaneuvers his local competitors.How is getting shot in the street exclusive to free markets?
He builds a sustainable network of businesses in a small town with a lot of growth potential.
Until one day when a sharply dressed business man from "back east" offers to purchase his assets.
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@Mharman
Capitalism works because the hardest workers rise to the top and the one make the poor choices sink to the bottom, then ensuring success for those who earn it.
The best critique of free market capitalism is the 1971 movie McCabe & Mrs. Miller. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
Denmark also has no minimum wage, so they have a big advantage over the USA.
Are you suggesting that there are invisible Danes making $1 an hour somewhere? How exactly is this "no minimum wage" a "big advantage" if the effective (de facto) minimum wage is $16 to $18 dollars an hour?
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@Smithereens
I think it strikes a good compromise between using an unqualified set of judges and having a meaningful judgement. I've actually never considered using an aggregate statistic for before/after positions in an audience to judge a debate. That way they don't have to explain to the audience how to judge a debate, they can just find out who was more persuasive overall. But yes I agree it's a far from perfect system and there's a few nuances that I'd like to know too.
Intelligence Squared debates use this method and get played on the radio. [LINK]
And sometimes on television. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
Denmark also has no minimum wage, so they have a big advantage over the USA.
No required minimum wage. Bargaining between employer associations and employee unions determines wages. Average minimum wage is approximately DKK110 ($18) per hour. Denmark's minimum wage was last changed in 1-Jan-2015. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
The only people doing the actual banning is corporate media themselves on smaller outlets...
This is exactly what I am talking about.
I've never suggested "the government" was banning anyone (although I'm not prepared to exonerate them prima facie).
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@Mopac
This is an ontological statement.Cabbage is a vegetable isn't a logical argument either.
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@Greyparrot
So what? You still believe the fake news when they say they are getting banned. That's a problem.
Are you suggesting that nobody is getting demonetized and shadow banned under the radar? [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
Nobody is banning fake news, they are just being publicly called out on it.
Most of the cases are merely gainsaying true stories as "fake news" with zero supporting evidence.
There is no reason to believe that protecting democracy against fake news wouldn’t be utilized as a pretext to enforce strict censorship and silence critics. [LINK]
Large numbers of smaller voices are being demonetized and shadow banned under the radar. [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
"The Perfect Dictatorship" (2014) is on Netflix and it quite explicitly points out that large news corporations take money from prominent politicians who are funded by a mix of corporations and criminals (and presumably other public figures who can afford it) for "image consulting" and fabricate and in some cases fully script "live real news" stories in order to boost ratings AND to distract from other possibly embarrassing stories (an operation referred to in the movie as the "chinese box"). [LINK]
"Branded" (2012) is an english language film, starring well known american actors, set in Russia. It details how journalists and consumers are merely pawns of the corporations. [LINK]
Freedom of the press is not the problem.
It is the barriers to entry and the gatekeepers that stifle and discredit all alternative views that allow this corrupt system to perpetuate itself.
The solution isn't to start banning fake news.
The solution is to teach people basic logic (and logical fallacies) so they can spot obvious deception for themselves.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
From Star Wars to Gilgamesh to Noah [LINK]
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@Greyparrot
You will never trust the media again, I promise.
I'll see your 2014 "Nightcrawler" and I'll raise you a 2014 "The Perfect Dictatorship" and a 2012 "Branded" and a 2003 "The Corporation" and a 1992 "Manufacturing Consent".
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
make such an inflammatory blanket statement is do to exactly what it has done, pit people against each other, spur arguments etc, hence it wasn't really an honest statement imo.
Please challenge my axioms and or point out a specific logical error and or provide a counter-factual.
Your dime-store psychoanalysis is a meaningless red-herring. Please construct a logical counter argument.
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@Greyparrot
Where's your "freeeeee-sppeeeeech" high horse?
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