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@Mopac
What do you need evidence of?If you want to see clearly, take account the tool you are using to measure, make sure it is clean and in good condition.Purify the heart.
I need to see your evidence of a link between noumenon and the "YHWH".
All of your "purify your heart and mind" stuff sounds exactly like the Bardo Thodol.
The Tibetan Taoists "purify their hearts and minds" all day and all night and they don't worship the "YHWH".
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@Mopac
Atheism and socialism go hand in hand which is why mass murdering Christians and persecuting the church is usually on the agenda of socialist countries.
A great many Theistic regimes killed their share of Christians as well, including other Christians.
For example, in 1564 Spanish Catholics killed French Huguenot Protestants in Florida specifically for not converting to Catholicism.
However, when Menéndez then demanded that they give up their Protestant faith and accept Catholicism, they refused. 111 Frenchmen were killed. Only sixteen were spared - a few who professed being Catholic, some impressed Breton sailors, and four artisans needed at St. Augustine.
Two weeks later the sequence of events was repeated. More French survivors appeared at the inlet, including Jean Ribault. On October 12 Ribault and his men surrendered and met their fate, again refusing to give up their faith. This time 134 were killed. From that time, the inlet was called Matanzas -- meaning "slaughters" in Spanish. [LINK]
Many Christians in general were killed. Ever hear of the Waldenses, the Paulicians, the Hutterites, Mennonites, Anabaptists, Moravians, Montanists, or Donatists? For 1500 years Catholocism has brutally slaughtered those who followed Jesus pacifistically while claiming the Bible as their sole rule of faith.
Maybe it's the ones being killed while dying peacefully who are the true continuers of the Christian faith that all the apostles including Paul and Barnabas died for (save John, who died in prison), even as like Jesus, they forgave their enemies. [LINK]
The schisms of the Middle Ages and especially the Protestant Reformation, sometimes provoked severe conflicts between Christian denominations to the point of persecuting each other.
In the 20th century, Christians were persecuted by various governments including the Islamic Ottoman Empire in the form of the Armenian Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide and the Greek Genocide, as well as by atheistic states such as the Soviet Union and North Korea. [wiki]
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@Mopac
Capitalism is a sneaky way for the elite to consolidate all wealth and power while enslaving the population. It is nothing but deceit. It tends to be very attractive to the lawless and wicked. Very attractive to materialists.
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@Mopac
Capitalism is how billionaires trick people who think they are fighting them into making them even more powerful.
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@Mopac
Neither would I say that my faith is blind, but rather one of sincere conviction.
I have never doubted your sincerity.
I doubt your evidence.
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@ResurgetExFavilla
Look up 'strict scrutiny' sweetie, maybe you can begin your introduction to Supreme Court jurisprudence there.
Citation please.
"...the Supreme Court has effectively limited the exception to only include abusive language, exchanged face to face, which would likely provoke a violent reaction." [LINK]
Harassing someone face to face by calling them by a title they already specifically asked you not to use would seem likely to provoke a violent reaction.
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@Mharman
I can get on board with making it illegal for pregnant women to drink.
But not an official registry of conception? If you believe that conception is equivalent to birth, and every human embryo is a citizen, then I can't imagine why you wouldn't support an official registry. This would of course mean that every lost embryo would be a potential murder or wrongful death case.
Every single cell in the human body has a full genome. Except for egg and sperm. Each contributes half of the genetic code.
There are a few exceptions to your blanket statement regarding the "full genome". [LINK]
- Mature red blood cells which contain no DNA
- The sperm and the egg that have half the amount of DNA
- B cells in which some of the DNA has been rearranged to make antibodies.
The hair follicle at the base of human hairs contains cellular material rich in DNA. In order to be used for DNA analysis, the hair must have been pulled from the body -- hairs that have been broken off do not contain DNA. [LINK]
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@Alec
In the same way, you can choose to allow a tourist into your country without granting them citizenship.If you are agreeing to let a tourist stay in your country for 9 months, then the tourist has the right to stay in the country for 9 months.
What if you simply granted them a one day pass?
Whether or not a guest will die when they are deported is immaterial. Deportees often fear for their lives but this is not considered a reason to allow them to stay.International law states that if a person is fleeing for their life, you have to let them stay in your country.
IFF that is the case, Why are Syrian refugees rejected?
If you want tourists but don't want them to become citizens, then you should attach ankle bracelets to them so they can be quickly and easily located and deported.I don't think this makes sense. Attaching an ankle to someone is not the same as preventing that person from being in your country by not offering a plane ticket.
You seem to be missing the point. A tourist visa is not a de facto green card or certificate of citizenship.
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@Mopac
I have no blind faith.But you certainly do have faith, you are just programmed to not acknowledge it.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
if you don't think tax payers should keep an embryo alive then why should the pay to kill it?
You misunderstand. (IFF) you want all embryos kept alive (THEN) you should pay for it, or lobby congress and or your insurance company to provide funding.
(IFF) you want to allow someone to electively remove an embryo from their own body (THEN) you should pay for it, or lobby congress and or your insurance company to provide funding.
These options are not mutually exclusive.
or is this only in relation to " lifetime ventilator"
The principle remains the same.
imo tax payers shouldn't be paying for any non needed medical procedures, especially cosmetic ones
Tax payers contribute to all sorts of non-critical infrastructure and services. I shouldn't have to pay property taxes if I don't have kids. I shouldn't have to pay city sales taxes if I don't go to the brand new football stadium. I shouldn't have to pay taxes to fund roads because I don't own a car. I shouldn't pay for other people to go to federally funded colleges. I shouldn't pay for hospitals if I never get sick. I shouldn't pay for firefighters if my house never burns down. I shouldn't have to pay for prisons if I don't commit any crimes.
it appears people are interpenetrating the law as it has no or little restriction, tbh I haven't read it yet and what I know and have experience with that state, it probably isn't clear and doesn't make much sense anyway.but let's say this only applies to medical reasons, I'm trying to figure out what those would be in such a late state of development.what urgent condition affecting the mother's life can only be solved and save her life if the baby is killed? I can't think of one.
That would be a job for medical professionals and insurance companies. Trust me, if an insurance company can determine something is "not medically necessary" to avoid paying for it, they will.
If the mother wants the baby killed because of some medical reason the baby has now developed, that's not an abortion that's euthanasia as she would not have done it otherwise.
I'm sure nobody is advocating for arbitrary infanticide.
if it's unrestricted and killed because of inconvenience, my tax money should not pay for that, it's elective with no real medical need or reason.
You are not paying for abortions. There is no such thing as a free abortion. The patient always gets a bill.
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@Mopac
It might be odd for you to think of me as a logical person, but I am a great deal more rational in my thinking that you can perhaps see at the moment.
Well, we do seem to agree on "NTURTTGgTS" = "Noumenon, The Ultimate Reality, The Truth, [G]god, The Source".
And I believe we've pinpointed our divergence at "faith".
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@Mharman
It has everything to do with the morality of abortion. (IFF) "life begins at conception" (THEN) make it official.Fair enough. You wouldn't need a certificate for that though.
You would need some sort of OFFICIAL record. If every embryo is a citizen with full human rights and protection of the law, then they should be monitored from day one. We need to make sure all pregnant women avoid alcohol and other dangerous substances and get proper nutrition and checkups, avoid strenuous exercise and arrest irresponsible women for child endangerment.
So, the question isn't so much "is an embryo alive" but rather, "is an embryo an independent organism".Specifically, is it part of another organism? And also, does it have a complete genome?It can only be considered an independent organism of the answer is a no to the first question and a yes to the second.
The embryo is 100% dependent on the host for nutrients and oxygen and physically inseparable so, correct me if I'm wrong, it would appear to be part of the host.
The requirement of a "complete genome" seems arbitrary to me. There are no mammals that can self-reproduce (which seemed to be your original sticking point on the sperm), so it would seem that males and females would comprise two halves of a "complete genome". There is also the small matter of necessary genetic diversity. If two people were considered to posses a "complete genome", then they should be able to repopulate the human race on their own. However, it appears that a minimum population of 10,000 to 40,000 people would be required for long term viability.
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@Mopac
To use a parable, it is kind of like explaining going down a waterslide to a kid. It just doesn't do the experience justice. So i bring the child to the top of the big water slide, and they are too scared to go down. I am trying to coax a child into going down a waterslide so they can experience it for themselves, but they lack the faith to go through with it. I am not going to force the child down the waterslide. They refuse, and never know what it is like to go down the waterslide.
What a marvelously apt metaphor.
I find your insistence to filter everything through a logical framework to be crippling and not truly rational. I am sure that in your current state of mind, such an assertion must be truly baffling.
You should probably try to use a term other than "truly rational" since "rational" simply means "logical". You could probably say something like, "unwise" which is somewhat more amorphous.
I'm sure that in your current state of mind, logic must be truly baffling.
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@Greyparrot
Do you believe in anarchy?
As one of your colleagues said recently, "Just because the law is like that doesn't mean the issue should be like that. The current abortion laws are immoral." [LINK]
There are ways to change laws, but people refuse to elect the kinds of Congresspeople that change laws.
What are you talking about. "Congresspeople" pass new laws every single year.
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@Mharman
It follows quite logically from "life begins at conception" - make it official.It was a red herring because it has nothing to do with the morality of abortion. Especially the first paragraph.
It has everything to do with the morality of abortion. (IFF) "life begins at conception" (THEN) make it official.
If it can die, then it can be alive. What exactly are you trying to say, a sperm is some sort of tiny machine?It may be alive, but it isn't an independent being; it is merely part of a larger organism.
So, the question isn't so much "is an embryo alive" but rather, "is an embryo an independent organism".
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
by that logic no tax payer or insurance money should pay for a non medical reason abortion right?No, by that logic, if you want to keep embryos alive, you should invest in ectogenesis.I never have suggested they we should keep embryos alive.......but it should be both ways don't you think?
Please explain your reasoning.
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@Mopac
I know exactly what I am talking about.
I do not doubt your sincerity. I doubt your logic.
You don't.
I only know as much as you are able to communicate.
I am trying to show you how you can know.
I appreciate your effort.
That is not an appeal to mystery, it is an acceptance of the very real truth that giving you the right information is not going to bring you to epignosis. You have to see for yourself.
Sure. I have to see it for myself. The question is simply, "How do I do that?"
Of course, you won't get there without faith because this isn't something that can be forced.
There it is. Faith is prerequisite. An appeal to faith is an appeal to mystery and an appeal to mystery is an appeal to ignorance.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
by that logic no tax payer or insurance money should pay for a non medical reason abortion right?
No, by that logic, if you want to keep embryos alive, you should invest in ectogenesis.
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@Greyparrot
By "bad people" do you mean "people not worthy of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?People who break the law are not worthy of the protections the law grants.
I see. Do you believe the law is infallible?
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@Alec
You cite the fetus as an invader, however, the woman chose to have the fetus while having sex.
You can choose to have sex without choosing to bear a child.
In the same way, you can choose to allow a tourist into your country without granting them citizenship.
You don't deport a guest if the guest will die outside.
Whether or not a guest will die when they are deported is immaterial. Deportees often fear for their lives but this is not considered a reason to allow them to stay.
If she didn't want the baby, but still wanted sex, she could have bought an IUD beforehand and used it to prevent pregnancy.
If you want tourists but don't want them to become citizens, then you should attach ankle bracelets to them so they can be quickly and easily located and deported.
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@Mopac
Are you trying to understand or are you simply trying to make a mockery of this whole thing?
You're the one who said that "truth" does not require knowledge. I contend that "understanding" requires knowledge and knowledge requires information.
We are talking about God, not a fill in the blank.
Your argument is an appeal to mystery. If you believe an appeal to mystery is a valid argument, then all appeals to mystery are valid arguments.
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@PGA2.0
Ok, so he saw a ghost and made sure his stories didn't conflict with the other unverifiable stories.He met a Person who he recognized and worshiped as God. He testifies to have seen Him and spent time with Him.
So, just like Joseph Smith?
So they knew exactly as much as we do.Logically speaking, they would have access to much more information than we have today.
Like what, for example?
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@Mharman
I see. It's only considered "whining" if someone doesn't like what you call them.This isn't whining. This is a legitimate complaint. It reveals how troubling his ideological narcissism is.
That actually makes perfect sense.
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@Mharman
He has attacked me twice before in this thread; I will fire back.
Do you believe that ad hominems are perfectly acceptable or invalid and off-topic?
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@Mharman
Now you just need to force everyone who misses a period to get a "conception certificate". Problem solved 4 evar.Oh wow, a red herring.
It follows quite logically from "life begins at conception" - make it official.
If you can tell the difference between a living sperm and a dead sperm, then the sperm that is not dead is de facto alive.Being alive does not make it "life" It is not a complete organism. It does not have a complete genome, it has a partial genome. Even prokaryotes have a complete set of DNA.
If it can die, then it can be alive. What exactly are you trying to say, a sperm is some sort of tiny machine?
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@Mharman
Well, I guess "personal attacks" are back on the table...This coming from the guy who can't even string together a coherent sentence.
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@Mharman
Who are you to determine what common sense is? You can't just claim your ideology is common sense and then proceed to call people chimpanzees because they have a different ideology.
Quit your whining you precious delicate free-speech loving snowflake.
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@Mharman
As is the current law. Just because the law is like that doesn't mean the issue should be like that. The current abortion laws are immoral.
Bingo. Social conservatives absolutely love to hide behind "the law" when something unpleasant "has to be done" that they agree with, like separating children from their parents and deporting people into war zones. Eh, I guess there's nothing we can do since you know, "it's the law"...
Now you just need to force everyone who misses a period to get a "conception certificate". Problem solved 4 evar.
Also, sperm cells are not life, they don't have a complete genome. It is when the sperm joins the egg that it becomes life.
If you can tell the difference between a living sperm and a dead sperm, then the sperm that is not dead is de facto alive. [LINK]
If you can tell the difference between a living brain cell and a dead brain cell, then the brain cell that is not dead is de facto alive.
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@Greyparrot
Literally nobody is calling undocumented invaders "non-persons"
I agree. Did someone say that? Citation please.
They are people, just bad people.
By "bad people" do you mean "people not worthy of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?
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@mustardness
Well stated.If [social conservatives] want to offer lifetime ventilator or whatever to any child that is not viable on its own, let them pay for there choice to do so.
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@Mharman
So a legal document certifying birth makes one alive?
An ant is alive.
A sperm is alive.
In order to be considered a native born citizen and enjoy full human rights and protection under the law, you must have a birth certificate.
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@Mopac
I said nothing about being a true believer.
My mistake, let me rephrase...
The Ultimate Unicorn is a mystery to me because I don't know what purifying the heart is.
What you are saying amounts to little more than self delusion.
What you are saying amounts to little more than self delusion.
What I am saying has to do with abandoning self delusion.
What I am saying has to do with abandoning self delusion.
Very much the opposite.
And yet, your argument is still a naked appeal to mystery.
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@Mopac
You are saying something nonsensical.What I am saying actually means something.It is a mystery to you because you don't know what purifying the heart is.
The logical structure is identical.
The Ultimate Unicorn is a mystery to me because I'm not a true-pure-hearted-believer in unicorns.
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@PGA2.0
Did Paul know the Jesus?Yes, he testified many times that He had met the risen Lord. The other apostles accepted him as one of them. His accounts verify and collaborate the NT gospels as well as OT prophecies.
Ok, so he saw a ghost and made sure his stories didn't conflict with the other unverifiable stories.
Did the Council of Niceaea know the Jesus?Some would know Him by faith and through the testimony of the written accounts of others, just like we know Him today.
So they knew exactly as much as we do.
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@Greyparrot
The magical spell invoked in an ancient secret brew of miraculous enchanted ink on parchment endorsed with the royal seal, otherwise knows as a "birth certificate".Ahhh... so a person is not a person unless they are documented...
It's either one or the other.
(IFF) you care about and will fight to protect undocumented illegal invader embryos (THEN) you naturally care about and will fight to protect undocumented illegal invader post-embryonic-humans.
(IFF) you don't care about the health or well being of undocumented illegal invader post-embryonic-humans (THEN) you naturally don't care about the health or well being of undocumented illegal invader embryos.
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@Mopac
Please elaborate your accusation for the sake of examination.
Here you go.
Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God.
In other words, blessed are the true believers in unicorns, for only they will be able to see unicorns.
If you can't see unicorns, it's because you are not a true believer.
This is the very definition of an unfalsifiable claim.
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@mustardness
If a foreign invader (embryo) is found inside the borders of your sovereign territory (body) then you have the right to deport them.Foreign invader = illegal immigrantdeport does not = abortabort = deathdeport may equal have them taken out of body and thett or others will raise them as her own children. And that is fine for Thett to make that offer but not force the pregnant mother to follow Thetts wishes/command/dictums less moral Thett law :--(
Deportation offers zero protection for the deportee.
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@PGA2.0
Did Paul know the Jesus?Is it reasonable and logical to believe that those who received writings from those closest to Jesus would have known which writings were true and which were bogus? Paul was writing to the churches in the 50s and 60s before he was put to death. Thus, it is reasonable to believe the writings would have started to circulate soon after they were written.
Did the Council of Niceaea know the Jesus?
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@Mopac
Blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God.NotBlessed are those who can come up with the cleverest explanation will see God.
Of course. An appeal to mystery would naturally endorse itself with an appeal to mystery.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to set a time limit of your expected lifetime.If Team Theist agree to signing a contract saying they have 10,000 years or100,000 years to prove God exists from now i will be able to be a atheist tomorrow. A legit one.
If you can't reasonably "prove" the existence of Theo before I die, then I do not believe in the existence of Theo.
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@Mopac
I think I have told you this before, but I don't think you really get what I mean yet.The western Latin church developed along very legalistic lines no doubt because of the influence of Augustine and even Latin itself. This passed on to western philosophy which is descended from Latin Scholasticism and Augustinian philosophies passed on to even the protestants and the secular culture that developed from this.You keep thinking about these things as if we were in a court house.This way of thinking is very alien and contrary to the way Orthodoxy understands things.Besides, you are not treating God as The Ultimate Reality or The Truth but like a man. This is a very faulty and immoral way of looking at things.
Your entire argument is an appeal to mystery.
An appeal to mystery is a de facto appeal to ignorance.
If you want to throw logic out the window, just admit it.
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@Greyparrot
Many of these edgelord marxists don't believe in borders or a rule of law protecting private property.
I've seen zero evidence that anyone here is in favor of "open borders" or the eradication of private property.
Your characterization is a cartoonish straw-man.
To them, simply having a need grants you the ability to simply take from someone who has what you want.
In other words, simply because an embryo needs nutrition, this grants them the ability to simply take from someone who has what they want.
Being poor or fleeing violence grants you the power to cross the border illegally because the borders are for the bourgeoisie and all refugees are proles.
Literally nobody is arguing that illegal alien invaders should be allowed to cross with impunity. Have fun crucifying your straw-man.
Everyone on earth decides at some point, who is considered part of their "in group" and who is part of their "out group".
I'm merely seeking logical coherence regarding your so-called principles.
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@thett3
How is abortion the equivalent of a sovereign state having a border lmao.
(IFF) a person has sovereignty over their own body (THEN) only the individual can decide what happens within their own body.
(IFF) a person does not have sovereignty over their own body (THEN) they are a de facto slave (property) of the state.
Answer the question, I assume you adhere to the NAP or some other kind of idiotic libertarian morality.
I adhere only to the principle of logical coherence.
What obligations does a mother have to her children?
At the moment a child is born, they become a citizen of the state and are granted full human rights and the protection of applicable law.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
A lot of people voluntarily have a large portion of their stomach and or intestines removed without donating them to anyone.just because they don't want it? because it's inconvenient? I don't think so, unless we are only talking about medical reasons.
Gastric bypass is voluntary. It is an elective procedure. Yes, they remove part of their stomach because they don't want it. They remove it because it is causing unsightly weight gain. This type of surgery, like cosmetic surgery and other elective procedures removes tissue from a person voluntarily.
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@keithprosser
Typical conservative snowflake hyperbole.My reading is the law changed from 'late term abortions are illegal, period' to 'late term abortions are illegal unless there are medical reasons'.
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@Mharman
What magical powers does the vagina have that passing through it makes the baby alive?
The magical spell invoked in an ancient secret brew of miraculous enchanted ink on parchment endorsed with the royal seal, otherwise knows as a "birth certificate".
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@PGA2.0
Is it reasonable to believe Jesus was a historical Person based on the evidence available = Yes!
Sure, people exist and have different names and say stuff.
Is it reasonable to believe God is our Creator = Yes!
Sure, there might have been some sort of Deistic being that ignited the big bang, either intentionally or unintentionally.
Is it reasonable to believe the Bible is the Word of God = Yes!
Not really. What you call "the bible" is a scrap yard of arbitrarily assembled writings, collected and codified by The Council of Niceaea in 325 CE.
Is it reasonable to believe in Jesus = Yes!
You're going to need to be slightly more specific.
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@Mopac
God is responsible for giving you free will as well, which does make you responsible for your actions.You have the choice to choose good or evil. And this in no way compromises God's sovereignty.
Imagine I designed a garden, and I placed a tray of brightly colored poisoned apples in the middle of it.
And I tell the people in the garden, you can pretty much do whatever you want, but don't eat any of those apples.
In a court of law, I would be responsible for reckless endangerment and or criminal negligence if not outright premeditated murder (if it could be proven that I either knew ahead of time that they would eat the poisoned apples or if I could have reasonably predicted such a thing and was capable of preventing it).
And furthermore, those poisoned apples would not only slowly kill those who ate it, but would infect their children with "original sin" for thousands of generations to come.
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@Greyparrot
We already have the technology to make all fetuses viable outside of the womb using artificial wombs, it just has not gone to the testing stage due to "ethical" concerns...
Ectogenesis solves all moral and practical problems for both sides.
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