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@TheHammer
Why would I waste an investigation on RM or Supa. They both suck at mafia and will be easy to read as the game progresses.
This is untrue to actual gameplay. Bad town appears scummy AF, point blank. If you are town, look at yourself and understand this is exactly why you are being viewed as scummy AF and people aren't quickly following your claim.
drafter is good at mafia, so he should be investigated
And so are multiple others in this game. Vaarka, Danielle, GP, myself. Yet, you investigate Drafter?
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@Danielle
I do think Budda is onto something in noting Hammer's alleged lack of description.
If it's alleged that means Hammer isnt being truthful. Are you proposing he is lying? If so, how does this make him more towny? He outright claimed it himself cause he cornered himself into having to claim it.
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@Danielle
Also keep in mind that Supa claimed first, right off the bat. This was sus in part because TuF has been known to provide fake claims. But with a janitor that inherently adds credence to any claims made previous to it, as mafia are incentivized to avoid claiming until they Janitor and can build claims around that.
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@Danielle
but I don't get why drafter believes there's a greater chance he was framed than that Hammer is scum (70% vs. 30). I will go back and scrutinize this more later tonight after 9:30 EST.
I think Drafter is basing that upon assuming 2 cops + an innocent child. But fmpov even a 1x Janitor and full time framer would be imbalanced. If it was a 1x Janitor 1x framer, and like a Godfather for the other role, I'd be more than willing to entertain that as a possibility.
But a JoaT with those abilities would mean you can only do one at a time. So given a janitor, a framing in the same night wouldnt be possible assuming JoaT with 1x Janitor + 1x framer + 1x(?)
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Drafter being guiltied seems more in line with a scum Hammer not paying close attention, looking at the final vote tally, and guiltying the person with the largest wagon independent of himself.
This being consistent with his obsecenely poor case against Rational, illustrating both a lack of effort and inconsistent application of rationale. That lack of effort and not paying close attention also further evidenced by his lack of any other reads beyond guiltying Drafter this DP.
Literally all signs are pointing to this guy being scum.
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I find it interesting Drafter is 70% sure he's been framed though despite as he implied, there plenty to consider him as scum. I can understand his reasoning supplied though, and it's fair enough.
Drafter being framed doesn't make much sense though. Hammer being scummy AF would generally result in an investigation(maybe he's GF?) so it would make most sense for him to be framed fmpov, not Drafter.
Drafter being guiltied seems more in line with a scum Hammer not paying close attention, looking at the final vote tally, and guiltying the person with the largest wagon independent of himself.
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I think Vaarkas quitting cause Hammer fucked up big time in his claim. Vaarka not being super present otherwise would explain why nobody stopped Hammer from claiming what he did tbh. Cause Danielle's not wrong to point out it's a pretty absurd slip if true. Absurd because it should have been noticeable to any mafia paying attention there was a pattern and structure to PM's forming.
Two inactive to a certain extent people would explain why, independent of Hammer clearly not paying attention, his teammate didn't pick that out in devising a fake claim.
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If Danielle can illustrate her breadcrumbing she claimed to have been doing in DP1, it strongly operates in favor of her being town too.
Note that inno =\= confirmed inherently. There is a general agreeance a Godfather being a strong possibility lest we forget that.
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You don't take claims post janitor at face value. And any claims made previous look strong AF cause mafia with a janitor are otherwise incentivized to not claim to build their claims around the janitored players role, character(sometimes provided), and justification(usually not provided though.)
This last point strongly operates in favor of Supa, RM, and I to be town.
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@Vaarka
Hey guys just letting you know I'm planning on replacing out. Sorry for my inactivity
Before you go, does your PM contain references to other characters and backstory? Also, character?
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To clarify:
1) 6 claims of PM's containing backstory and character to Hammers claim his does not. "One of these things is not like.the others, one of these things just doesn't belong."
2) Hammer FoS's RM DP1 but votes Supa. Then investigates Drafter. Inconsistent in rationale.
3) Hammer says he might be willing to claim last DP. Despite having cop as a PR. Townies will generally vehemently fight against claiming and otherwise not be willing to claim, nor even hint they'd be willing to unpressured(as he in essence did.) This is inconsistent with him actually being cop.
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I'm just gonna post this, and probably once more if we decide to lynch Drafter and he flips inno because it's worth noting again
"The main issue i honestly take with [waiting for him to claim] is nothing precludes him as mafia from claiming an important character and/or Doc to root it out via the inevitable CC.Understanding the desire for caution, that caution can easily backfire fmpov. Or any major PR for that matter."
You can include that there is a janitored death, ergo Earth easily could have been cop. You don't take claims post janitor at face value. And any claims made previous look strong AF cause mafia with a janitor are otherwise incentivized to not claim to build their claims around the janitored players role, character(sometimes provided), and justification(usually not provided though.)
"Usually, but not always, Janitors will learn the role and alignment of the players they kill even if they clean up the body."
Note that role+alignment does not include character and justification. Ergo, you usually don't get the whole PM. Though on DDO mafia you usually get character too, full PM's though? Not from what I recall.
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I know the storyline, the script isn't important you have it backwards.
Just to clarify again. No, the parts of the script that make it past filming after changes during previous and during filming is canon. Canon even in regards to emotions a character may be feeling, largely interpretive in viewing the end result, because such things are usually provided in scripts to give the actor/actress an emotional guide for their acting.
I don't dispute you might otherwise have done research. But your interpretation of such synopsis are inconsistent with the synopsis themselves, and reads based off them inconsistent as well.
For example, "Lenny Potts doesn't fit as a cop!". When Lenny Potts is a former detective directly hired by Sally to investigate Danny's death.
Then to tie that to inconsistency in analysis, you say Supa is town because his character claim is close to urs. But Drafters character has a far more signifigant connection, being close old friends and the aforementioned hiring of Potts to investigste Danny's death.
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Now, as for if he flips scum I don't need to explain the win there but note he's a one-time cop whereas Hammer says he's multi yeah? Learn to gamble well.
This is accurate though and why I'm still ok with a Drafter lynch. If Hammer is town, town loses more than if Drafter is town. There's little reason to think Drafter is scum behaviorally, and plenty to think Hammer isnt. But smart move is to Lynch Drafter to test the cop claim. If he flips inno, then we lynch Hammer.
Hammer ends up guilty, remaining scum is prolly Vaarka, but honestly you are still a possibility because your behavior via analysishas been largely disgenuinely shaded as numerously evidenced by the sourcing I've done.
Btw, just to note. If you've ever read a scripy you'd understand scripts contain many story-elements that otherwise can easily be missed in a show. Large parts of scripts don't make it into shows explicitly. Scripts are the entire story as seen when performed, plus much more. I thought you had found a script and maybe understood this. Hence why I was so interested in you linking to the script sources. But I'm thinking you pulled that false story/script dichotomy out of ur arse and when you went to look for scripts to back up you saying that's what was important, you found out what I did. That being that they aren't available to be viewed.
You gotta stop pulling things out ur rear if ur town. It makes you look scummy AF.
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I am done negotiating with someone hellbent on not understanding me.
I am not hellbent on not understanding you. I'm trying to work with you and you keep spouting off nonsense. Like, "oh but she's one of the main characters"
Ok then you don't get credit for claiming the character in and of itself then. Claiming Sally Rayburn, a major character with a signifigant role, is not the same as claiming the main character.
The reason why claiming the main character, stressing "the" as in not plural, is because mafia will 100% stay away from such a claim unless supplied as a fake claim. Claiming say Aang in The Last Airbender mafia, or Frodo in Lord of the Rings mafia. These are true main characters that the show revolves around. This show does not revolve around any specific character except maybe John. Rather it focuses upon the Rayburn family as a whole.
Are all claims of the Rayburn family to be taken as inherently town? I would think not considering the prime characters to be mafia are members of the Rayburn family.
No, me being confirmed doesn't at all confirm you in the least. First you tried tying yourself to dudz claim by saying your character is close despite his PM not mentioning you and ur character not otherwise being described as close in any synopsis with Jane from what I've found.
Now ur trying to say me being inno makes you inno? No, you could be lying. Not all major characters are always or even usually included in a game. The only thing that honestly has me not SR'ing you at this point is that you claimed your pm contains characters/backstory before that even started becoming clear as a pattern.
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I found no such sources for Aguirre. Aguirre is not detailed in any synopsis or backstory that I've found. His backstory is even entirely blank on wiki. So again, I invite you to source where you are getting this information from
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It's funny though, because you posting those quotes earlier would sure make it seem you actually thought the script was serious. Lol it's funny watching you flip flop on something once you got caught BS'ing.
Quotes that were fished out of context, but nonetheless, somebody who thinks script and story are two separate things is liable to post quotes thinking that's what a script is about. When no, scripts detail pretty much everything. Not just conversations and speech. If story is important, then scripts are consequentially extremely important as they detail near every story element and actually give insight, for example, specific emotions a character is feeling in a scene as a hint to how the actor/acctress should be acting.
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Its subpar storyline integrity means i'm able to tic tac toe it and work out who links to who without watching it from clues
Ok so if it's so easy I invite you yet again to illustrate this as it should be easily illustratable. And easily sourcable as you have claimed to not have seen the show but for one episode. Therefore you have researched this and can point people to the sources you are using.
Again, do so.
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YES AND IF I CARED ABOUT THE SCRIPT I'D WATCH THE SHOW KID
So basically, you care about the theme, yet you don't care about the script, and you don't care about the story(because the show is not storyline heavy). So why the overt focus on theme to begin with?
Again, this is exactly the type of stuff that makes you look scummy
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drafterman +vaarka/greyEND OF DISCUSSION THANK ME LATER
Not end of discussion. Why? Nobodies going to listen to you unless you actually provide sound reasoning. And disgenuine misrepresentations of things don't count. They only make you look scummy.
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if drafter is scum, danielle is not I am very certain of this now
I've already stated this myself. I don't see Drafter being the type that inno's his own teammate.
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I know the storyline, the script isn't important you have it backwards.
Sigh, you do understand these threads can be re-read, right? They don't just disappear
This show is not storyline heavy at all, it's acting and script heavy instead to make it successful so the story is to be an easy spiderweb to piece together.
This is exactly the kind of shit that makes you look scummy.
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here because something is strange in that there's 3 vanillas right?
Not really? There's nothing that precludes there from being 4, even 5 vanillas in 7 town game. Vanillas aren't a PR and thus dont really effect balance to much of any degree. The basis for holding it unlikely there is 2 PR(like cop) usually comes down to an assessment of balance.
Does the presence of 3, even 4 vanillas, imbalance the game?
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This is unbelievable for a main char
Because she's not the main character, my lord lol.
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@Danielle
@Greyparrot
And tbh have not found anything about a new child.
@Danielle- can you corroborate that Belle and Kevin have a new child at some point in the series?
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@Greyparrot
Wiki on Belle Rayburn says she's estranged from Kevin. I think your claim is truthful because I had to go to an article about the Season 3 finale that Belle is actually with Kevin. There was nothing about it in any links directly related to the character.
At Kevin’s place, Belle calls out to him in the night and asks for him to bring her some water, but all she hears is the water running from the bathroom. The door is locked, and she can’t get him to respond. Thinking the worst, she runs to the garage to discover a naked Kevin with a loaded gun. He says not to look at him, and he puts the gun to his head. He puts the gun down after admitting that the DEA knows everything about his operation with the Cubans.
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@drafterman
If I'm scum, who do you think my partner is?
Tbh, I don't know. This is one of the reasons I'm not voting you. I'm drawing blanks on who ur scumbuddy would be. I don't think you'd inno ur own scum-mate either tbh.
I'd default to Vaarka
If Hammer is scum, who do you think his partner is
Vaarka
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@Greyparrot
Why yes it does, it mentions me and another person, along with a back story.
Then all but Vaarka have weighed in and stated, or shown as a result of full claiming, that our PM's all reference another character(s) and contain backstory elements. Hammers does not as he both (first) made it clear without actually outright saying it, then as i pressedI pressed him, had to continue that course or look like a liar backtracking on it.
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@Greyparrot
He knows the show and the characters well
I disagree, he's pulling things out of his rear. "Sherriff Aguirre is exactly who I'd expect as cop." Yet the evidence he has for it is a couple fished quotes that are out of context and dont impart any background to the circumstances they were said in, as a full script would actually provide.
Plus, when the two provided quotes are the first and third links on the search "sheriff aguirre bloodline mafia"(the second repeats the first)... that's just a little too convenient and seems like cover for his previous to that statement of, "this show isn't about the storyline its about the script"
Which is basically the story...
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@Greyparrot
do you think Earth was cop and Hammer is taking advantage of this?
I for one actually do. Janitors usually don't provide the full PM, usually nothing at all. A common variant that's used on DDO is you get role + character. That doesn't include justification.
I think Earth was Aguirre and had justification. Mafia was never provided it and hammer assumed what was provided, was the entirety of the PM. Or he didnt, but otherwise couldnt provide it because Aguirre's backstory is blank and he isn't even referenced in the synopsis i've read. This fits with his claim that his justification is in essence that he is a good guy who catches criminals(lol). As generic as it gets.
It isn't at all unrealistic or absurd to posit he missed the two PM's that were out in full and assumed information provided from a janitor would be the PM in full.
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@Greyparrot
Does your PM mention other characters and contain backstory elements?
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@Danielle
Did Hammer say he had no explanation at all? (If he's guilty, why would he lie about that?).
Yes and consider that I had questioned into all but admitting that previous to him fully coming out with that.
Why would he? Consider that in his response to me this DP, that highlights he isn't paying attention to the game. Notice how he said my PM analysis implicates Drafter? But how, when Drafter had only character claimed and my analysis was regarding the presence of characters and backstory in all outted PM's at that point.
Also note, Hammer is still the only one claiming his PM does not mention other characters nor has backstory elements. Everyone but Vaarka and GP from what I've seen has corroborated their PM's have the aforementioned, and thats because they haven't responded to whether or not they do yet.
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@drafterman
If one maf had a 1x frame and another had a 1x janitor, would that be imbalanced?It would arguably be even more imbalanced.
^^this
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@Danielle
My first guess was Marco Diaz.
These were my thoughts too. If I recall correctly from one of the sources used, Marco is in charge of investigating Danny"s death, no?
That would presumably be why Kevin approached him. Out of an attempt to convince Marco to shove the investigation under the rug cause Marco also so happens to be close-ish with John?
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@Danielle
Does your PM mention characters and provide backstory?
Yep.
Take note that Hammers does not
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Nothing at all as in a goon, ergo, no active or even passive role.
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Just one character that has the active abilities. Presence of a mafia joat in a 9 player game(7 v 2) would most likely be paired with a GF or nothing at all fmpov.
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@drafterman
If it was a JoaT role it'd be just one character fmpov so a frame and janitor same night would otherwise not be possible assuming 1x frame and 1x janitor
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@Danielle
you think the game started with 2/9
7 v 2 in essence. A framer + janitor is I'm balanced AF in just a 9 player game.
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@Danielle
Choo choo bitches, the hammer train is in station. No way mafia has a janitor and a framer, and afaik drafter never claimed miller. Easy lynch.
Post 75 from Hammer.
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@drafterman
If you have such difficulty reading GP, why would you investigate someone you didn't think was scummy from what I recall?
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@drafterman
Minus the result (which we can't trust),
Ur right, we can't trust his guilty result thats why we test it by either lynching you or him.
Quick question though, last DP you said GP is "inscrutable as he always is" to you. Yet you investigate Danielle, why?
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@Danielle
Does your PM mention characters and provide backstory?
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@drafterman
He's the scummiest, but I think a janitor + framer would be imba.
Lets see, if we didn't lynch between you two, who else? Neither one of you will die, so the only way we parse that is via a lynch. Idc about lynching Hammer over you. Others prolly will though because Hammer if town can produce more results.
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@Danielle
No, fmpov it's Godfather + Janitor. Others are covering fkr John so he looks innocent and it doesn't come out he killed John. John was the one who disposed of danny's body, but it was all 3 siblings who decided to do that. And Kevin as janitor makes sense fmpov because he killed marco, and took steps with gilbert to frame O'Banmon for Marcos death.(O'Bannon had said he had proof John killed Danny).
On second thought, it's possible John is GF, and fmpov perhaps Kevin could be JoaT? 1x Janitor, 1x Framer, 1x(?). Or something like that. But I'm otherwise uninclined to think a full janitor and framer would be present.
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@drafterman
Idk man, now that i look at it. Seems like he's been BS'ing out theme knowledge the whole game. He isn't really justifying behavioral reads well and has been spouting off whatever is convenient to FoS'ing despite those things clearly being misrepresentations of actions, but that even if those actions were taken, misrepresenting those actions as scummy when they're not as in pretty much every case townies do and have done those same actions often.(ex: bandwagon and sheeping)..
Consistent, but consistently scummy. I still think it's Hammer/Vaarka. But Rational is worth considering if Vaarka turns up inno.
Either way, you likely are getting lynched today. We have ur result, and you don't get anymore. So we lynch you to test Hammers claim. If you are inno, we lynch hammer. If you are scum, hammer is clear and i have to reconsider my reads.
I don't think there's a framer in the game. The only person that makes sense as such to me would be Gilbert, but Gilbert wasn't directly or indirectly involved with Danny's death/cover-up(janitor) of his death. Which seems to be what the game is revolving around.
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@drafterman
^^im just saying, this looks like some quote fishing to justify a defense being made up on the fly/talking out if his behind regarding that whole, "I read the script, the storyline isnt important" because it was becoming pretty clear that he was pulling Aguirre being most likely to be the cop if cop is in game, out of thin air.
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