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@ludofl3x
This is a problem, wouldn't you agree?
I do agree and again, the mystery of God. :) I'd love to know the beginings.
This is one of those problems where our shared inability to imagine the amount of time in question inhibits us from understanding possible versus probable. I'm not sure I understand what your objection is here, is it that whatever bees eat would have had to be here before bees? Can you explain your mathematical comment?
I'm saying that a symbiotic relationship such as a bee hive must evolve together or at the exact same time (drones, workers, queen, food, etc). One cannot evolve before or after the other. So if the idea of random chance of these 4 things (drones, workers, queens and food) all being evolved at the same time and be around the same area for them to meet and create their hive and then have food to sustain it and then create more bees, then the odds are really mathematically impossible. By mathematically impossible, meaning no chance. I tried to dig it up but there is an probability that is considered "no chance" after a certain point of odds.
No, it doesn't, but my point is you can witness evolution today very easily. Covid's variants are all examples of it: a living thing (virus) changing in response to environment (hostile reproductive environment post-vaccine). The delta variant, for example, was resistant to the vaccine, and was more fit to reproduce, so it became the dominant strain, until we fought that off, etc. etc., then a more resistant strain came and we figure that out, etc. etc. That's just evolution in real time. I know it doesn't mean that a virus in two generations is going to become a koala bear, but that's still the textbook definition of evolution.
I think the definition of evolution for the virus does not entail the whole of the evolution theory here. We see the ability of a creature to adapt or survive the environment, not become something different. Just like the finches on the Galapagos Islands and their beaks. (Darwin's observations)
Do you really think that? First of all, if there's "no-God" agenda, whoever's pushing it is doing a piss poor job considering the percentage of people on earth who believe in some god or another (above 90%)!
Yes, I do think that. It is not in full effect right now, but it will turn out that way. It has to turn that way if the world will turn to a one world system. (More conspiracy!) Also, the idea of God doesn't have to go away as much as the true belief of God must go away. Of that 90%, how many are still doing "evil" things contrary to the Bible? Do they really believe in God if they don't follow his word? How much of the God belief is "ecumenical", meaning a belief that doesn't offend others and is all inclusive? I know of plenty of churches here in AZ that are "come as you are, love and don't offend" kind of standards. I understand the come as you are, but a man must change his ways in order to repent and a ecumenical approach doesn't demand a change to the man. (not trying to preach here).
And I don't think anyone who thinks like me, that there's no god watching us, thinks that human life is value-less. I think this is a bit of a boogey man image, a straw man. I've never talked to an atheist who thought "Once we get rid of the Ten Commandments in schools that are used by the entire public and not just Christians, THEN we can finally enact our eugenics program!" Me, I think once we get rid of the ten commandments, then the muslims and hindi kids that go to my kids' public school will feel like they're on a little more even footing. That's the limit of my evil, I guess.
I don't believe most people are like that and again I should of referenced the leaders of the movement. I do think most people, religious or not, are a lot like me. You remind me of my brother, so I do have a reference to go by. He is a good ole boy, loves his family, doesn't commit crimes and would help others in an instant. So to clarify, I don't think the general population is chomping at the bit for a full disclosure of "no-God" to massacre people. I think it's more of a mental conditioning to the population to then have them follow their demands later.
Can I ask about this bolded bit though? Are you saying that if you found out that there was no God, you'd immediately start just committing crimes, killing people you didn't like, stealing, and basically just being a menace to society? I don't think that's true, that's not the impression I get. It's not a soul that keeps me from doing it, or promise of reward, or fear of punishment, can't I just not kill someone because human life is valuable, as that person gets just the one, like me?
Just like my comment above, I don't think the total population is chomping at the bit to commit crimes, nor would I. I will say, however, that the thought of heaven and hell does help keep my actions in line. I also think that humankind is all trying to live and let live for the most part.
I will predict a little here. Let's look at our current state of America only. The way of morals have changed from 100 years ago. It used to be illegal for women to wear pants, adulatory was considered a crime, and even Christmas was outlawed (It was considered a Catholic Holiday) and the list goes on. Now we are in a time where homosexuality is celebrated, boys can walk into girls bathrooms if they claim to be one and drag shows are televised and the list goes on. It is constantly sliding into a more immoral society. Why would any of this matter to anybody except the Bible people? Who are the one's freaking out about this "progress" except people like me? Who would try to stop this non-sense if people like me were not around? I and people like me are "in the way" of the constant moral decline (progress).
Now, I am considered hateful if I don't comply to the foolish banter of gender identities AND you will believe that I am hateful and intolerant, if you don't already think that now. How much more of a push is it that I am not only hateful, but now harmful to society? If I am harmful, what should happen to people that hurt the society? If we follow the constant slide of society, we can assume that it gets worse and less biblical, less "Godly" so to speak. At what point is my view irrelevant and also damaging to life in America and would have to be "eliminated"?
I hope I am completely wrong on this prediction, for the sake of myself, my family and my friends, but I don't think I'm too far off. NostraDavid has spoken :)
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@Lemming
If the question is, "can music be used for evil" then I will say yes. There are evil ways to associate music, just like you said. I was going for more of a general thought of music itself.
Your analogy of metal is great. Music can be beautiful or it can be chaotic noise or it can be used for trances or it can be used to implement evil ideas into the minds of listeners, but as an overall music is a tool.
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@ludofl3x
This view seems a function of a lack of perspective on how much time you're talking about. No, we haven't witnessed it, nor should we expect to, this kind to kind evolution, in our lifetimes, because those kinds of changes take, at minimum, tens of thousands of years. I get that this is a frustration with evolutionary theory and a lot of people will use to say "well, it's not true then, since I have never seen two deer produce a turtle as offspring." It's like taking a circle and turning it into a square: we want it to be noticeable, to be done in a short amount of time, but evolution takes 100,000 tiny little adjustments to do it.
This sounds good in theory, but again, there will need to be proof or at least some sort of experiment that can support that claim. Since none of us can live past 120 years max, it would be an easy claim to say that it would take too long for us to see and neither you or I can prove or disprove it.
Time doesn't "do" anything in evolutionary theory. It's simply a span between two things. Can life arise from non-life, then, seems to be the question. My answer is yes, because we're here, and everything we need to be here (elements and time) we can demonstrate as extant. I think you believe life must arise from non life too...if you believe the genesis creation account, right? In that context, you find it completely reasonable that it happened, in spite of having one more mystery in the mix now.
The highlighted above is an interesting concept for a paradigm view in any situation. That "we are here" is an obvious fact, but the "how" is the question. So because I believe in God, it must mean he created it (hard to prove and hard to imagine) and since you believe in evolution, it must mean that life did arise from non-life (hard to prove and hard to imagine). But to clarify, God is alive so anything made from him would come from life, correct?
As to creation, we do have examples of things having to be created together. Something like a bee. It's needs are directly related to the types of bees in a hive. Without the workers, the queen doesn't exist, without the queen the workers don't exist. Also, the food source for these creatures would have to evolve at the same time that these different bees evolved, and find each other. Mathematically, it can't happen.
We do see this happen over and over again today. Ever heard of Covid 19? :) And its subsequent variants? All of that is demonstrable and observable evolution. And if Covid 19 is a political football for you, it can apply to every virus, the flu, the common cold, all of them are alive.
I'm not sure if the political football is if it was created in a lab or not, but COVID 19 and all it's variants did come from the variants before it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but a virus doesn't just pop out of thin air, does it?
You're an interesting sort, David. Here, 'they' refers to 'evolutionists.' First, I don't think that's a term that people who accept evolutionary science would call themselves, it sounds more like a pejorative, but maybe you didn't mean it that way, so benefit of the doubt there. But WHY would they want to sham the public? What's to gain? For whose agenda? It's a strange claim, one I've heard before but no one ever really explains. Like who benefits from the 'scam' that the Colorado River DIDN'T actually make the Grand Canyon, but something else did? Is it the Colorado River Lobby covering up the real cause? LOL! What would be the point of such a cover up, in either case?
I agree that the term is all inclusive and I didn't mean it that way. More to the leaders of the evolution movement.
As to the why, there could be as many reasons as humans have intentions, BUT my personal thought on it is that it is done on purpose to push the whole "no-God" agenda. If you can prove there is no God, then you can make up whatever rules you want. Without an absolute (God, Bible, etc), then anything that is wanted to be done can be done by reasoning of man. I.E. When people like me are in the way of progress, who's to say that a "humane way of getting rid of them" would not be okay? There is no God, so no absolute morals or any punishment or reward at the end to pay for the "evil" or "good" life. No such thing as a conscience or a soul, just a matter of electronic connections and chemical compounds. Meh, what's the matter with a little snuffing out of those chemicals? It's not a soul right? It's just some tissue.
Conspiracy, I know, but I don't think I'm too far off. And we have heard of this type of genocide played out in WW2.
I use the whole Grand Canyon thing as an obvious example, not that the Grand Canyon or Colorado River itself is so important.
Sounds familiar. You're going to get "mysterious are his ways" sorts of answers as to why, or "it's not our place to question." If that's the case then he should have written a less curious code into us, I say. I respect that you're a person of devout faith for sure, but more that you're willing to admit the frustrations and questions you have. I completely understand, personally, the drive to have some grand explanation, a comfort that we can fall back on in times of real despair, or an explanation for things we can't understand.Excellent question, and gets to the heart of the utility of intercessory prayer (or any prayer at all).
Prayer to me is an odd thing. I think it is more complex than many make it sound. If God knows our hearts, minds and situation and will know our needs, if he loves us and cares for us, why do we come to him asking for the things we need? I feed my own children without them telling me that they are hungry. I clothe them without them telling me "Daddy, I'm naked. Can I have some clothes?". I don't even have to read their mind.
What is it that I must make a petition before God for him to bend his ear to me?
I suppose I'm asking the wrong guy these questions, but just thoughts bouncing in my wee brain.
Anyways, great conversation again!
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@Deb-8-a-bull
5 people being killed by a out of control trolley makes for a wayyyyy better vid then one
The trolley video I thought was funny is where the trolley gets completely lifted from the tracks and then soars thru a window of a children's hospital.
Just think of the moral implications of that decision!
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@Best.Korea
I think the idea of life, in general, is precious, BUT honestly the lives that are closest to me are the most precious and will take the higher tier in a emergency.
If I can only save 6 lives from a sinking ship, it will be my family and myself. Anyone trying the climb on our life boat would sink it and I would push them back into the water to preserve my family. Why would I not sacrifice myself for the one trying to climb in? It is, again, to preserve my family. They need me as their father/husband and for me to worthlessly throw myself into the water to allow a stranger to climb on would just be stupid. What if that guy really did just have it coming?
I assume you come from the background as a single young man. Typically thinking that your best day can be fulfilled by allowing someone else more deserving to live and you die.
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@badger
I figure I'm opening a can worms here, but give an example of "bigoted attitudes".
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@ludofl3x
I'm curious what you mean that the process of evolution somehow goes against the first law of thermodynamics. New life forms continue to pop up, to be discovered, to confound science. I would think tending toward order rather than chaos would look more like the number of life forms DEcreasing rather than INcreasing. But that's not what happens. It's also important to note that we have a tendency as humans to look at everything in our own time scale (this shortcoming is a byproduct of our own evolution, actually!), so what might look orderly to us for a couple of thousand years might be just a blip on the cosmic calendar, you know?
By saying they are discovered doesn't mean that they just evolved. We haven't found every animal there is non Earth and new species are showing up all the time. Within a "kind" of animal, there will always be new ones showing up, but it will only be within that kind. Such as dogs, they will come out with new breeds of dog, but never a new breed of dog/cat mix. They can't reproduce within their kind to each other. I know that a cat and a rabbit can produce a "cabbit" or a donkey and horse will produce a mule, but those off spring cannot reproduce themselves. The gene pool is too mixed up at that point.
With the whole idea of the law of thermodynamics, cells will deteriorate, die off, need to reproduce itself, etc. We, as living things, are constantly dying. Other non-living things are constantly decomposing. At what point does a non-living, non-thinking item turn against the dying and decomposition and decide that it will become greater or more than what it is? Something has to be programmed into a body to know what to do with waste and then know how to reproduce itself to keep the whole body alive. I know time can do anything in an evolution theory, but can time even create life out of nothing?
Speaking of time, there are a lot of measurable things that can help us determine the age of the Earth. All these actually point to a world that is about 12K to 6K years old, depending on the variables. Take these same measurables and run them out even 100K years and the world doesn't exist. I'd have to dig these up.
BTW, I'm not sure if you ever looked into this, but the "Gods" of evolution are time and earth. It is steeped in Greek mythology with Father Time (Chronos) and Mother Earth (Gaia). Maybe a coincidence, but I thought it was interesting.
But then I'd point out that it only takes ONE TIME for life to arise from non-life for that to no longer be true.
I would agree except we know living things are dependent upon a system of other things. For example, if an single celled organism were to be "created" then where is it's food or energy? Is the environment habitable? Does it have another to reproduce with? Even within a single cell, there are multiple items that have to be within it to make it function. ALL those items are needed for this thing to survive. So, we either have the impossible happening (life created from nothing) and having it to happen millions of times (I'm assuming) in order for this one living cell to survive and reproduce again to create the life we know now. If it happens so freely, then we should be able to see it happen over and over again today and it should be observable.
I would point out the Urey Miller experiments
Neat experiment to say the least, but same concept as above. You can create the amino acids, but what about the rest? Can that same spark source put those acids in order? Were the conditions right for life to begin in the first place? There are a TON of variables for this to happen. I tried to look up the mathematical chances of this happening to to turn into "life", but came up with nothing on google. (I didn't look very hard)
What's this have to do with evolution? I'm not a huge geology guy, but I would imagine some research might reveal things like glaciers that aren't there anymore, I don't know, never looked into it. I don't know why this is here, but it definitely doesn't touch on any evolutionary topic. I'm curious about what you think is "wishful" about it, though. What is it "wishing" to do?
I agree this was out of context, but my point was that evolutionists will state whatever they wanted to prove a point regardless of the facts. They are trying to sham the population. I understand that there are plenty of religious scam artists, so I am not saying that all evolutionists are evil and all religious people are good. Far from it. I think most people are a lot like me, trying to find their way and will follow what sounds good to them and there a plenty of bad people in all walks of life and in every social crust.
To answer the question, there seems to be a large lake (now dry) to the north of the canyon. More than likely glacial melt, snow cover and a earthen dam broke flooding the canyon tearing thru it. Therefore, a lot of water over a short time.
The whole wishful thinking is trying to pull the slight of hand hoping that others won't see. I.E. "Grand canyon is formed by a river almost a mile below the surface. This can help prove our millions of years theory and hope nobody notices that the elevation difference since we see it as it is now." In fact, I googled this and it still says the Colorado carved it out.
This is the question of intercessory prayer and what it's good for, but another topic for another time :). I'm mainly curious about how believers square all this without recognizing how closely this all resembles a coping mechanism and an abusive relationship all at the same time. I know that sounds like I'm being condescending, but I promise you having had several very close encounters with this mechanism, I am not. I admired when my aunt and uncle kept their faith after their eldest son drowned, but I couldn't understand it either.
It's a mystery to me and one that does frustrate me. I wish there was more clarity to all this stuff. I went to church last night (as I go 4 times a week) and the message specifically was about the power of God able to do great things. It made me wonder how much does God get involved in our lives. I mean, God is ever present in a time of need, but not present when we feel He is needed the most? Don't get me wrong, I have had God directly answer prayers that I have said out of frustration (meaning, not being sincere) within seconds. I know he exists and the proof is too insurmountable to me. My issue is making this all make sense in my mind and with my life.
The salvation message is clear. The "how to" on being a Christian is also very clear, but when it comes to knowing the mind of God and the "why's" of it all, it remains a mystery. I am a "why" kind of person and it makes me pull my hair when I can't figure out the intentions of a person.
Funny you bring up the intercessory prayer. I have always heard of stories of people being woke up in the middle of the night saying that they felt a need to pray for someone. I have always thought that odd since the same God that would wake you up with a friend or loved one on your mind would be the same God to help the one suffering. Why doesn't God just the help the person in need and let me sleep? I rationalized that it is not God waking anyone up, but rather a sixth sense built into all of us that when a loved one is suffering, we feel it too. Just like the premonitions that someone has died, they can feel the emotional or spiritual pull on their hearts/minds.
I find this is pretty common. Really I think the key difference between a believer and a non believer is that a non believer simply stops at "we don't know the answer," where the believer appends "So it's probably [diety]."
I actually enjoy investigating something I don't know and I'm not afraid to question it. When I ask questions, I get answers! :) I refuse to just say "oh, it's the way God made it." and even if God did make it that way, then why.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
No idea what you are saying is my way of life but if marginalized groups want to be separate, such as an all girls school, that’s fine. It’s when they are forced to segregate it’s a violation of civil rights. Understand dummy?
Touche!
“The graduation ceremonies serve as a “unique form of graduation that offers a more intimate celebration of students' academic journeys,” according the university's website”
So just a nice way to keep segregation going. I see.
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@ludofl3x
Sorry, forgot to ask something specific to this. If it's NOT just the improbable, and it's some other explanation, what is that other explanation, do you think? And how would you go about convincing someone that it was such an explanation? Can we test for it? Or are we really just saying "well, this is really weird, and appears impossible, so, guess it's a miracle!"?
I suppose it's easy to say "Must be God" when we don't know the answer. It's hard to get scientific data about something that can't be predicted or reproduced. I would love some data or stats on stuff like this. Though I know it wouldn't convince the masses, I think it would still be cool.
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@ludofl3x
In regards to evolution, I do believe the science that is being used. So the biology of cell structure and such. The part I have ought is where they start making leaps of faith that is against the laws of science. Such as, the first law of thermodynamics is that everything runs into a state of disorder. To this, the world should become less stable but the evolution process goes against the grain with it. Another is that any biology textbook will tell you that every living creature comes from another living creature, but again, evolution flies in the face of that rule. They will make stuff up in regards to erosion and how long it takes. Here is a question for you: How was the Grand Canyon made? (something close to me since I live in AZ) If you gave the typical response of "The Colorado River" then I have another law that should stop that. It is called the law of gravity. Look up the source of the Colorado River. It starts at about 2500 ft elevation. How would it get to the top of the Grand Canyon at near 7000 ft to start the millions year process of erosion? There is so much wishful thinking when it comes to the evolution process that it is mathematically and scientifically impossible. But, to each his own I guess.
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Honestly, I don't know why God would or would not intervene in anyone's life. The fella who had a torn knee also had a brother die as a baby from spinal meningitis that was possibly contracted from a vaccine. In fact, two babies contracted the disease when vaccinated near the same time, one died, the other didn't. To me, it is a mystery and I wish I knew the answer to this. It does bug me when I see stuff like this. It's hard to say if I should expect a healing for everything since I love God, or not expect a healing and be grateful if it does happen.
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Makes sense about the NDE, that the brain is ruthless when it comes to staying alive. There are stories of mothers fighting wild animals to save their children and then when they know their child is safe, they will fall over dead from the wounds of the attacker, apparently the will to live and protect is no longer needed and their spirit leaves. One thing about the NDE's though is that the NDE'er will have a heightened sense of being. They will think more clear and see more clear than anything. They also have the ability to see as if they are floating above their bodies. They are also able to recall what the room looks like, even though they are blind.
To answer your questions about bad NDE's, I looked up a website:
It shows that about 4% will have a "hellish" NDE. Usually you never hear of them, but they have a few posted. I personally know a guy, who used to be my best friend, was caught sleeping with another man's woman and had his head crushed with a rock. While he was out, he said he went to hell and saw his grandparents telling him to go back from where he came and then demons were reaching for him and grabbing him, pulling him down. He woke up on the operating table in a terrified frenzy, punching and pushing nurses and doctors until he was subdued.
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@IwantRooseveltagain
@Kaitlyn
Hey IwantRooskies,
you believe black people a great, but whites and blacks just shouldn’t live together. People of differing races shouldn’t share the same country. You are just a race realist.
Here is something you should note from your own glorious way of life:
If you take time to read it, it says that you would endorse a SEGREGATED graduation ceremony!! They literally will have a separate ceremony just because they are black. They are having a different ceremony based on their skin color!
YOU AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE THE RACIST, DUMMY!! LOL
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@ludofl3x
Interesting.
You answered the "get here" fine. I think the whole evolution thing is a fool's religion. It's a lot "believe what I say" parroting. I know most people don't take all the evolution theory whole heartedly, but I'm amazed that a man of your intellect would lean in that direction. What part of the evolution thing appeals to you?
What makes you not believe in miracles (your definition is good)? Take medical miracles for example, I know a guy that was diagnosed with a brain aneurism at the Mayo Hospital. Multiple doctors saw this and they were going to perform a crucial surgery the next day. He woke up feeling different and told them that he was fine. They checked it out and the issue was gone. Another was a guy I know got his leg ran over on a job site and tore a knee tendon apart. They went in for surgery and found the tendon completely healed on its own where the day before it was torn. X-rays showed a small scar where the tendon healed together in the middle of the tendon.
Are these two examples of the improbable or is there another thing happening? If this were the possible, though not the norm, couldn't we reproduce the results with the technology we have today?
NDE's don't describe Jesus as much as they describe a "being of light" who asks what they thought about their life. As in being the same, I know they are not exact, but I found this online about it:
"Near-death experiences (NDEs) are reported by about 17% of those who nearly die.1 NDEs have been reported by children, adults, scientists, physicians, priests, ministers, among the religious and atheists, and from countries throughout the world.
While no two NDEs are the same, there are characteristic features that are commonly observed in NDEs. These characteristics include a perception of seeing and hearing apart from the physical body, passing into or through a tunnel, encountering a mystical light, intense and generally positive emotions, a review of part or all of their prior life experiences, encountering deceased loved ones, and a choice to return to their earthly life.2"
While no two NDEs are the same, there are characteristic features that are commonly observed in NDEs. These characteristics include a perception of seeing and hearing apart from the physical body, passing into or through a tunnel, encountering a mystical light, intense and generally positive emotions, a review of part or all of their prior life experiences, encountering deceased loved ones, and a choice to return to their earthly life.2"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/#:~:text=Near%2Ddeath%20experiences%20(NDEs),of%20those%20who%20nearly%20die.&text=NDEs%20have%20been%20reported%20by,from%20countries%20throughout%20the%20world. (I just read part of the article so I decided to post it. Kinda neat)
These are the same features in every one of them. Why are there not just as many different experiences as "near-deathers"?
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@ludofl3x
You had mentioned about asking about what you believe and I took a lot of thought into that.
A few questions:
1. How did we get here, as in mankind?
2. What do you attribute miracles? (I.E. healings, answered prayers, medical miracles, etc)
3. How do you explain NDE's (Near death experiences) and how they are all the same and follow the same route regardless of country and religious belief?
Just curious how you come about these instances without the acknowledgement of a higher or superior being.
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A penny for my thoughts (I better be careful. I might get back change!)
Music is amoral. It has no good or evil tendencies.
Use the music for your own means, then it becomes good or bad, but it was not the music, rather the person using it.
Just like a brick. It can be used to build a house or break a window.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Ah! The rapid fire of posts. Only Bro D can do this.
Looks like I only responded to one and I won't respond to the rest since they will all say the same thing.
So to answer the rest of your posts on this thread, though this has been enjoyable, I will give one simple answer:
Derp.
Good day! :)
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Must I once again go back to your useless MO of posting?!
You have really shown your true ignorant colors, fool! Do you not realize that the word spank is not even in the bible? The word beat was used in it's place. Do you really think that God wanted his people to BEAT their children?! YOU are the sick creep with even thinking that the intent of that passage refers to this!!
In your useless posting on this forum, you have blatantly lived up to your name as the Bible Dumb Ass! It looks like your parents should have taken the rod to your Bible Dumb Ass more often and should have used the rod on your face as well. (Hmmm. . . Actually, from the looks of it, looks like they already did!) Maybe then the useless rabble spouting from your flabby mouth would have been curbed before you solidified your name as the "BIBLE DUMB ASS". All I hear coming from your end is braying.
As for the result of your posting, it only reveals that you are the wicked one! Are you always so foolish to show who your real father is so quickly during these forums? Your father, the devil, is having a heyday embarrassing you!
Once again, an offering is demanded from you since your bible belting was in order. AMEN!
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@Athias
I just checked the Youtube link you gave on your previous thread and it's removed from YT. Surprise surprise. I did see it on the C-Span news though. Disgusting!
There is a montage out there that shows a lot of his hair sniffing and groping too, but don't know if it's on YT or not. This guy is clearly a disgusting person but maybe that's why his base loves him.
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@Skipper_Sr
I would also like to encourage you to not give up. It is a HUGE learning curve from now until about 25 years old, so keep at it.
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@RationalMadman
@Lemming
@ADreamOfLiberty
@Skipper_Sr
Skipper,
I would agree with AdreamofLiberty, Rationalmadman and Lemming combined.
I also agree with debateart that no one told me these things either. So take the hints from the three above. It's hard work but worth it.
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@Stephen
@BrotherD.Thomas
Just because I don't answer in your time, does not mean that I am running away.
BEAT our offspring
Spankings or discipline is appropriate, otherwise they would turn out like you.
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do
This is taken out of context. This is stupid to think that God WANTS us to sell our daughters to slavery. This is strictly for monetary reasons and not ownership, since after 7 years they can be free.
offspring that curse them, are to be put to death,. . . no incentive NOT TO SIN if you are always forgiven!
Again, context. This is specifically for the nation of Israel. Do you really think that God creates a nation only to have them destroy their children? What child has NEVER back talked to their parents at one point of another. This is clearly in reference to some child who is outlandishly unruly and so far, I have not seen an example of the sentence carried out in the Bible.
As for the always forgive doctrine, again you are clearly pulling this out of context. The idea of confessing your sins is referring to repentance. Repentance is deciding to not do what you did wrong again. In fact if you read the rest of the bible and not cherry pick the passages that soothes your demonic conscience, you would see in 2 Corinthians 7:11 a CRITERIA to be considered repented.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26) "STOP THIS INSTANCE in loving us now"
Again, such a stupid point of view and an obvious cherry picking of scripture. This can be crossed referenced in Matthew 10:34-39. Jesus is clearly stating that you can't hold the love of your parents above the love of God.
hath a afamiliar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death. . . DavidAZ, what do you think upon the situation?do you agree with Jesus that we are to murder these people because they are not Christians?If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman." (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)
Such foolish arguments. It's as if I'm talking to a dumb teenager.
This again is for the nation of Israel. Jesus does not give this commandment to Christians.
And to give my opinion, as long as the witch or an idolator or a fag is not harming my family or my friends, live and let live. They will get theirs in the judgement day. Who am I to exact judgement? Without God, I would be just like them.
To follow up on the whole idea of is God wicked, I think you have stated your points. You don't like God so therefore everything to you is wicked since it will rub you the wrong way. It's funny because you and others like you who like to shake a fist at God really falls in line with Proverbs:
All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.
You will demand that God is wicked, but your own actions are not? You will feel high enough to judge a being that can only be good? You are ridiculous! LOL. If it seems God has done something "wicked", it is because we don't understand the reason or because we can't see what he does.
By the way, the whole idea of morality comes from God or religion itself. Without God, there is no standard for you to say if he is wicked or not. So therefore, your atheist view negates the whole premise of you even having the opportunity to say that he is wicked, since God defines morality. No God, no morals. It is playing itself out in the USA right now.
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@Tradesecret
As the alter ego of Tradesecret, I would like to ask myself if a partial preterist does believe in a second coming and the destruction of the present world and of evil forever. I have heard of Preterist doctrines but not not partial.
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@Tradesecret
I agree! God will determine what is good and wicked, so therefore, whatever God states is good, then it is good. Just because we don't like or agree with his decisions doesn't mean it is considered wicked.
The dialogue above is interesting because I would never think that people would be so bold as to call God wicked, but this actually lines up with the book of Revelation where after the judgement from God is poured out, people will not repent but will curse God for being evil. There will be actual proof that God exists by this time and instead of trying to get on his good side and repenting, they will stand up and demand Him to stop his "wicked behavior". Then all will actually try to fight him later on during Armageddon! This proves to me that people really do believe there is a God, but would rather fight against Him rather than serve Him.
Such insolence of mankind to think that we can fight against God. It really is comical. The real amazing thing about this all is the long-suffering God allows so people like this to come to repentance, hopefully seeing how goofy their thinking has been.
Probably a different subject, but the prophecy in the Bible is all lining up now and the world is ready for a "book of Revelation" showdown. It will be interesting to see all this play out.
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Brother D,
LOL! Bring it on.
This could be fun!
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Brother D,
The reason I use your inferior MO of posting is so you can understand my posts! Otherwise you would remain Bible Brainless like before.
Nonetheless, God determined the judgement to be cruel. Doesn't our own justice system work "wicked" things to those who disobey the law? Who are you to encourage the use of the word "moral" anyways?
The Bible Dumb Ass is Bible Belted again!
My hand grows weary of the spankings I have to give your useless flabby cheeks.
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@Stephen
@BrotherD.Thomas
Brother D,
Bible Fool should be accredited to the one who inhabits such traits, YOURSELF! You missed the reference that in Stephen trying to use the English language is foreign to him already! GOT IT?! Why else would you, "The Bible Dumb Ass®", not help in the interpretation?
As for your brainless reference to Jeremiah, a prophet that was actually inspired, unlike you, The Bible Dumb Ass, was judgement and not a commandment! The same judgement you will receive for your insolent and ignorant passages. HELL IS LICKING HER CHOPS FOR SUCH A FAT SOUL AS YOURS!!
Jesus did command others to eat his flesh and drink his blood when on this Earth. So in effort to be like the Lord, I have some flesh on me that you can eat! I will incorporate this as your paying off your offering debt that you have been building up since your useless appearance on this thread! OPEN WIDE AND RECEIVE INSTRUCTION!
Consider yourself Bible Belted for the glory of all mankind!!
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@Stephen
@BrotherD.Thomas
Brother D,
Your post to Stephen regarding his cryptic message to all: Yes, the adage of; "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
See how Bible Brainless you are? Stephen has been clearly involving himself in the glossolalia. He has let a spirit speak through him and you are clueless to know that you even were involved with interpretation! UNDERSTAND?!
1 Corinthians 14:13 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
You are directly involved in the will of God by the passage below:
2 Peter 2:16 . . .but was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
This doesn't mean that you are clear from the destruction that God has in store, lest ye repent! ALTER CALL NOW!
Let it be known by all that I have once again "Bible Belted®" Brother D for his own good to remove his brainless ideas about himself and the bible.
I am keeping a tab on how much you owe me an offering, Brother D! You seem to enjoy robbing my ministry of it's due benevolence! A place in the lake of fire is opening up for you and your Putrid Posts®! Can the thread say AMEN?!
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@BrotherD.Thomas
Brother D,
Did you not see my last post where I have clearly called you out as a Bible Troll?! A rebuke is only necessary for the likes of a Pseudo-Christian, as you say so yourself. But if you were to read the entire set of letters by Paul, you would soon realize that he encourages us not to engage in useless ramblings and vain jangling such as yours:
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Must I always teach the Bible Ignorant such as you to the ways of reading scriptures?! You claim I RUN AWAY but only the dumb in mind want to run towards gore and destruction, the same that spews from your unbridled mouth moved by none other than the hand of Beelzebub, your master! AMEN!
Therefore, if I am "Bible Stupid", then you must be "Bible brainless®" and your intelligence will never exceed that of a gnat. GET IT?!
Now understand what has been said straight from my own mouth and without further dispute, I close your BEGIN with an:
ENDED!
I would demand from you an offering for the verbal slapping I have achieved upon your jowly face, except I know the change, nicotine gum wrappers and bits of lint that resides in your pockets would turn my offering plate into a bowl of hellish imps.
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@Stephen
@BrotherD.Thomas
The reason why I had discourse with Ludo and not both of you is because I was looking for a real discourse and not some childish banter back and forth. If I wanted to fight with trolls, then I would have started a D&D game.
Brother D is an obvious troll and I actually enjoy his posts if you know that his posts are comic satire. Stephen just sounds like an angry teenager and I wanted to give him a platform to spout his beliefs, but all he did is play the word games like our posts in the other thread and ignore my "other aspects" portion anyways. All he did was say the same thing over again.
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@ludofl3x
Let's look at the parent analogy. . .
I'd have to say Ludo, your reasoning makes sense.
I will say that this is a deeper subject than what I have thought about and will concede to say that I am lacking in knowledge in the subjects I thought I knew.
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@K_Michael
Why would an omniscient being change his mind? Reads more like an adult who tells their kid that they won't get X treat or reward unless they do what they're told, knowing full well that they won't follow through with the threat.
Well, I suppose that's what it looks like but if you have kids, I know you would understand the relationship and circumstance.
Children are warned (Do not eat)
Children mess up (eat fruit)
Children are punished (expelled from garden)
Parent cleans up the mess (coats of skin for man and woman)
Also, if the eating of the tree brought death and he brings death upon the animal instead of the man and woman as a substitution, did not the death occur?
You make God out to be on your level, as a man and that he is supposed to somehow see your logic and standards, but if he the 500 pound gorilla, I guess he can say what he wants.
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@K_Michael
Lying. That's called lying. Something that God supposedly condemns.
Can God change his mind?
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@ludofl3x
Ludo,
I really appreciate the dialogue between us. I'll address a few points and move on from this topic. It has been a good discussion for me and one that makes me think! :)
As for the "know nothing God":
God does know the thoughts and intents and the beginning from the end. However the test of Abraham does show that God wanted proof of his fear of the Lord, therefore assuming that God didn't know this aspect of Abraham. I will have to work within those bounds and how that works may be beyond my comprehension of God. I hope one day that I can convey this to others. I, in no way, meant to diminish God's authority or ability with my ramblings on what God does or does not know.
Do you think some of your Christian brethren (not all, not a majority, but SOME) would prefer America this way? Because they sure can legislate like it. My worry here is being the frog in a slowly boiling pot of water, you know?
I'm sure there are people in America that are "Christian" or not that would love to do away with the conflict to their beliefs by killing the ones that oppose them. I know about the frog in boiling water and I do think we are in it now, but not the way that you see it. I really feel my view will be quickly abolished instead, but again, to each his own.
It has been great to discuss this with you and you make some valid points. Engaging conversation and my hat is off to you.
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@ludofl3x
In the interest of brevity I'm going to trim some of these passages and try to respond to most of the content, but if I miss something it's not intentional or trying to take you out of context. What you say above is contradictory: if he didn't see it coming, then he can be surprised, which means an outcome he didn't expect happens. Also, the test of Abraham is not really a test in my view. Explained it here, actually: https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/9056/posts/381958As to the plans and house thing, you're saying that he rather has an end goal and no real 'step by step' of how it gets there, right? I'm afraid this is trying to have it both ways, which is why it's confusing. He either knows everything, or he doesn't. It sounds to me like you think he doesn't, there's some subset of knowledge he doesn't have (and it included Abraham). THat's fine, we can proceed with a less than all knowing god in mind, but it's unusual.
I read the post you linked. I see what you are saying and I feel I am missing something that I am not explaining. It does look contradictory for me to say that he is not blind sided by anything but then say he didn't know the outcome of Abraham's test. I appreciate the challenge to my views! I will have to investigate this more since it made sense in my mind but I am not making it come out without having it confuse others.
Who wrote those drives into the people in this case?
I wouldn't say that God wrote those drives. A lot of circumstance will change a man's view on things. Also some things will drive one man and not the other. I wouldn't blame God if a man would decide, given the chance, to disobey a commandment or not.
If god is truly less than all knowing, and apparently less than powerful enough to convince the Amalekites, whom he also made,
Maybe off subject and into the weeds here, but your wording here, whom he also made. Are you referring to that God created those people from the dirt like Adam and Eve or are you saying that since they are human, they are part of God's creation?
David! I'm going to give you more credit than this. My question is very simple. Was it ever moral to OWN another human being? To be able to pass them down to your children like you would furniture? Not to have them work for you, to own them. Was it ever MORAL to own a prisoner of war, or their children? I don't think it's above your paygrade to comment on that. And I do not believe for one second that you think it's okay to own slaves in the American agricultural context, even if they were somehow acquired by moral circumstances. Would inheritance qualify as a moral circumstance?
Lol! I appreciate the credit you give, but honestly I've never thought of this subject. From the research I have done just from your original post about this, I really feel that the slavery in the bible is little more grey than what we know as slavery today and in America, so I can't really give a good answer on what the Bible says. I will, however, agree that ownership of another human being by force or purchase would be immoral in any circumstance and the consistent "hand me down" of slave families would also be immoral. For sure, if I were the slave, I would hope others would pity my circumstance as such.
Here we're referring to stuff like gay guys getting killed for being gay, I just would like a little clarification here on what this means before I comment on it. Without clarification though, I would ask what on earth god made gay people for, this is a problem that god could have solved a million ways (not even counting raining sulfur down on gay towns!). Do you think a society like the Taliban, let's say, is morally superior to American culture because they punish their gays according to their faith? I don't think you do, this is why I'm asking for clarification of the above.
Good questions! To quickly answer about the Taliban and the middle eastern culture, I do not see them as superior in any way to American culture, but it is not because we do not legally kill gays here. They have a flawed culture of dominance and control. They demand the whole world see their views instead of letting God work in the hearts of men. As for the killing of gays, again, it will not be prudent to allow this to happen, especially in today's society. It will create chaos due to factions demanding that their way is the best. Again, I do not agree with the gay lifestyle. I think it is wrong and contrary to nature, but to each his own I guess. I would not, given the opportunity without anyone knowing, kill a gay man for being gay. When I say "adjusted in society" I do NOT mean, kill them.
I'm probably going to raise some hackles by saying this, but I do not believe God made anyone gay. God would not have someone born a way that is contrary to his design or law. That would be like God saying anyone with blond hair is inherently bad and must be punished. That's a foolish idea. I believe that a gay person will choose to be that way in some form or another.
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@Melcharaz
when you say fear. do you mean actually be afraid of? or to honor him?
I believe the biblical reference to the word "fear" is more of an honor or reverence. It is the same idea as your feelings to your father (assuming your father was a good man) when you were a kid. You loved your dad and enjoyed being around your dad, but cross dad and, whoowee!, get ready for some correction. You know dad had the power to make your life miserable but you also know that your dad loved you so you stayed on his good side, knowing that insolence could land you some painful lessons.
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@ludofl3x
Ludo,
Okay, I forgot to ask another key question, so I'll rectify that now: do you think the god of the bible, according to the bible, can be surprised? In other words, does he have a PLAN for everything, or just an IDEA. I can address some of the other stuff that doesn't really bear on that question in the meantime.
This is a little harder to explain and I know I butchered it on another thread, but here goes:
I believe God has an ultimate plan on how the world and mankind will run it's course. Let's say a blueprint to a house.
I also believe that God has an idea on how he will get that plan done. As in who he wants to hire to build that house.
So God knows the thoughts and intents of man but he does not know the exact action that we will perform. My example would be the test to Abraham. God knew Abraham loved him and was willing to obey (thought), he also knew that Abraham would decide on carrying out the plan (intent), but would he actually use the knife on his own child's throat when his own emotions and doubts are clouding his intents? Also, could Abraham be swayed at the pleading of his own child before he carried through with the act? At a certain point of the sacrifice ceremony, God knew it would be carried out and stopped him with the angel saying, "NOW I know".
So to answer your question, can God be surprised, I suppose in some extreme cases like above. But to say that God didn't see something coming or to be blind sighted is not true.
I hope I explained this as to not create more confusion.
This is where we start to get into why I think the character is indeed wicked. For god, in the bible, how is it possible that there could be "no hope"? He literally controls everything, number one, and he literally made everyone alive. Could he not "change" or "edit" the populace in such a way that he'd be pleased with them? Is that not possible for god (through whom all things are possible, I've heard)? If the answer is no, why? if the answer is yes, then you can see that he actively chose the path that led to widespread devastation, from all other paths. Again, he's got three options for the trolley problem: kill one, kill many, or kill none. He chose kill many. If you chose to kill any when you could achieve the same end without killing at all, would you not be rightfully called wicked? Does god EVER only have one solution? Does this character, the one many think has knowledge of all things and all times and created everything and everyone, does the author bear no responsibility for the actions of his characters?
I see where you are coming with this reasoning. If God is all powerful and he wants mankind to live and thrive, then why doesn't he just create a scenario where all could live and not fight, correct? I think one missing aspect in this train of thought is the decision of mankind. God gave mankind freewill. The ability to choose. So mankind can choose to serve and love God or choose to do their own thing without God. With our decisions comes the consequences of our actions, hence reward or judgement. It's an archaic concept, I know, but the simplest of ideas will come to this.
I would also liken the "perfect world" reasoning above to the concept of communism. Everybody gets the same thing (for the most part) and everybody gets assigned a job to do and where to live so society can run smoother as a whole. Just like a set of working ants, everybody does their assigned parts and life is pleasant! The problem with this design is the will of the human spirit will throw a wrench into the gears. What if one wants to be a doctor instead of a concrete worker? What if one wants to live in the mountains and not the plains? What if one has a drive to change his town into the best ever, but can only lay bricks? Our drive will help determine our outcome and the same for with God's ways with us. He lets us decide. So if we get too far without him, deny him, and reject him to the extent that our hearts turn fully evil, then a turn of judgement may be in order. This judgement may or may not include death from him. I suppose that's up to God.
There's no ability for the people he created, knowing what they'd do and how they'd be, for every second of their lives, to repent, I get that. What I don't get is why his only solution is to destroy "the bad." I mean, didn't he also create the Amalekites? What was so bad about them besides they weren't Hebrews, that not only did they have to die, but their women and children were taken as slaves (the bible calls them "wives" as a euphemism) and their livestock was killed? That sure doesn't sound like our justice system to me. :)
I would agree with you if we only saw this situation at a distance. It looks like like God sends his people in for some holy genocide to all the inhabitants so he can clear a way for the Israelites to live. But, let's take a deeper look into what was actually going on at that time. God told his people after they got out of Egypt to not take on the ways of the "heathen" around them (Leviticus 18). He established laws to help the Israelites not do what the nations around them were doing. If you read through some of those laws, the nations were very corrupt, nasty and evil, according to God's word. At this point, the driving out of these nations was again the judgement of God to these heathen nations and the nation of Israel was the tool he used to work this judgement. Again, the ultimate judge in this scenario will be God and not us.
I will chime in and say on this point that we don't know the standard that was given to those nations that could have been considered bad or wrong. God may have had a certain lenience to the heathen since they did not have the law or the covenant with Abraham and they still blew through the standards, therefore enacting the judgement, but this is all speculation on my part.
Would we still use the death penalty, or even prisons, if we had the ability to completely mentally reprogram the murderer without him ever knowing, so that he's a good member of society? I'm not talking about prison system rehab we try to say we're doing now. I mean ACTUAL rehabilitation, beyond question, completely effective, like a real reprogramming.
In theory, the death penalty may be abolished if this were the case, but also keep in mind justice to the victim's family. There was still a horrendous wrong. Who is going to pay?
Was it ever MORAL to own a human being?
The ownership of another human is immoral if the circumstances are immoral on how they obtained them. Example, if I were a poor Hebrew man in those days, it may be better for me to contract myself as a servant (slave) to a rich Hebrew family, learn from them and then be set free after 7 years to try a new start at life with the new knowledge I have. There is a ton of debate regarding how slaves were obtained and treated in the bible. Some state that any ownership is punishable by death (Exodus 21:16) while others say the bible states it is permissible depending on the circumstances (war). There is one thing agreed that they are all set free on the Jubilee.
This is a bigger subject that is above my pay grade to really comment on.
This is a great argument for subjective morality, be careful :). I say that somewhat flippantly as I'm not sure where you stand on those issues personally, but I would imagine as a normal human being you do not think that gay men should be put to death here in 2023, and I doubt you have to grit your teeth and resent that they don't. Maybe you're not comfortable with them, that's your right (again, I'm presuming, so apologies if I have you wrong), but I very much doubt you'd vote for legislation demanding they be dragged into the street and killed. That's in Leviticus, I'm sure you know, and again, that to me would be wicked.
I am a very conservative person, so I don't agree with the list I gave, but like you said, I don't think killing the ones that do this is the best way to stop it. It's a moral issue that needs to be adjusted in society as a whole since the lack of morality caused these things to become so blatant. Every one of the issues I mentioned was illegal in America at one time. As for Leviticus, I figure that if a country wants to create laws against such behavior, then that's up to them, but keep in mind there was a reason the laws were made against these behaviors and why the execution of the law was so harsh. I doubt it was because they were just intolerant, but rather that a breach in morality would cause a huge problem in that society. Everyone had to be speaking the same thing in order for them to be moving as one people. Otherwise, if they got divided, they would easily fall apart.
Compliments on the rational discussion, it's encouraging that we can disagree so vehemently on something (I'm talking about the existence of god now, I bet we don't disagree so vehemently on these particulars) and get through three posts without calling each other names.
Same here! This has been enlightening and fun to discuss. Thanks for the civil discourse!
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@Tradesecret
@Melcharaz
I am under the same opinion as you Melcharaz. I do believe God sets the standard and we should line up to it and not accuse God of wicked judgement.
I could see where people could be appalled by the idea of God demanding that all fear him, but God also shows that he doesn't only want the fear, but also wants to show his love and appreciation. I believe God has so many aspects of him that we cannot define him with only one attribute like the pagans would have one God for each aspect of life.
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@Stephen
Lets have your biblical definition of the word " wicked" and "good".
Hmmmm . . I think this is a good question to ask, but I would say someone who hurts others, whether it's financial, spiritual, emotional, physical, for their own happiness or gain without the consideration or improvement of others, would be considered wicked. I.E. Murder, theft, vandalism, assaults
Good would be the opposite: The act or thought of helping others for their benefit or the benefit of society. I.E. giving, loving, helping, also a doctor could do a good thing by cutting out a tumor, hurting someone, but for their benefit.
I do appreciate your time on this Stephen.
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@ludofl3x
Ah! That makes sense.
I would say that in our lives, God is the decision maker for the universe so for him to have the last say is really not mine to judge, but I see your point. Also, God didn't make mankind just to destroy them. When Adam and Eve were in the garden, he didn't kill them like he said (ye shall surely die), he had something else die in it's place (they got coats of animal skins). I would say he is constantly trying to find a way to preserve mankind so at the point of the flood, he may have seen the hearts of men and known that there was no more hope (hearts of men evil continually) and only through the lineage of Noah was there to be goodness.
So when something like a the global flood or the killing of the Amalekites happens, I think it's Gods only solution to this evil. There is no ability to repent at this point so the best thing to do would be to destroy the bad.
I would liken it to our justice system. We will not let a murderer live. He is too bad of a person to keep him around society (death penalty). I think what God is doing in these situations is the same aspect.
As for the sexual slavery stuff, I will have to look into that some more. I never heard of the sexual part. But Hebrew slavery was not like our recent history slavery. They could have been slaves to pay off debts. Also, when the feast of Pentecost came around or the death of the high priest, all slaves went free. It was never a society set upon slave labor such as agriculture in the Southern United States.
We also will define morality by a different standard in today's society than it was just few generations ago (adultery, drugs, abortion, LGBTQ). So I could really see where God would be seen as wicked when he sends harsh judgement to others. I could also see when we don't live by the same standards as they did back then that we can look back a see it as a bad decision.
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@Stephen
Stephen, I specifically said: POST 162
I actually may start a thread just for you to describe your position on God being wicked. It is a interesting view IMO.
You replied: POST 164
"actually may"!? I will believe it when I see, it.But I told you, I don't care, I am easy.
So I started it and you are easy.
No gotcha points here, no troll threads, no being sly. I wanted your view on why God is wicked. You never really laid out a real case for this. Just a few biblical references. I'm interested in your view on this and have asked you to comment.
BUT, since you have asked me to start:
The God of the old testament has always been considered good or righteous. He helps people when they cry out to him, he delivers his people in dire situations and even cares for a old widow woman during a drought. God can also be severe such as during Noah's flood, the judgement of the Egyptians in the Exodus and the punishment of the Judah and Israel in their exile. Even though God has been rough and severe, he always will bend an ear to those who call on them. He does care for his own but he will not tolerate insolence against his ways. God always gives the best to his people, but will be upset if it is not appreciated. He does command people to fear him, which is not an unusual position to be in when you are in authority. There are people in his plan that were "used" for his good that would seem that he doesn't care or regard the feelings of others just so He can get his way, but most do not recognize the lessons he is trying to teach or the training he is giving. There are times he executes judgement on others that may seem "wicked", but we don't know their whole story and sometimes why God had the judgement drawn.
Now, I also do NOT claim to know everything about God. I can only glean from personal experience and what the Bible tells me. So when others state that God is wicked, it baffles me to hear it. I want someone here to show why they think the God of the Bible is wicked.
When I use the word wicked, I think of evil, demonic, happy at the loss of innocent blood, theft, murder and the such.
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@ludofl3x
Thanks!
As for wicked, I am leaving that to be defined by any poster as they see fit. I have seen the God of the bible as rough or stern or even uncaring but never wicked, so I wanted people to chime in, specifically Stephen per our previous posts we had that he had asked me to start. I'm afraid I've ticked him off to much to have a real discussion on it.
The old testament is still valid after reading the new, yes. I would say God is the same throughout the Bible and was never "meaner" in the old as compared to the new.
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@Stephen
Have at it please.
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I recently have been introduced to a user by the name of Stephen who has the idea that the God of the Bible is "wicked". I would like Stephen to come on and describe his view of the Biblical God being wicked.
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@Stephen
Ah! That is what I was looking for. :) I appreciate the clarification. I wanted to see where the confusion was at and I am grateful for your explanation. I will apologize for not being more specific and sounding general in my posts. I can absolutely see where you can see that I moved the goal posts and my explanation was not adequate to make any sense. I will make my points understandable next time. My fault.
I actually may start a thread just for you to describe your position on God being wicked. It is a interesting view IMO.
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@Stephen
I agree that we have butchered this thread to death. I am also done trying to run around your logic and reasoning with this. I have gained no insight on anything about this except that you accuse me of multiple moving the goal post and back paddling, which you still would not clarify. You wouldn't expound on your point of why fearing the LORD was such a big deal in your eyes. If you expect me to engage in more threads with you according to the banter we had above, then forget it. I wanted to have a normal conversation about biblical stuff and see your point of view but all I got was a pile of word games, accusations, butt hurt comments and a consistent rabble on you spouting that God is wicked.
I think you are a sharp guy and you definitely have the ability to think outside the box. I do appreciate your time with me on this. I'm going to use my time with something else.
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@Stephen
I meant no offense by any of this and if my actions caused me to look haughty, then I apologize. I really felt my responses were not catching right with you as if I was speaking another language. I guess I am not communicating well and I wanted to make sure I can see where you are coming from also.
So lets try this again...
No I have accused you of moving the goal posts three time and backpaddling once.
Please articulate where this has happened. I don't see where the of moving goal posts and back paddling is warranted. I know this was in reference to the whole God knows the thoughts and intents, but I'm not sure what I had said anything different than I had before. I tried to expound on what I meant, but I never changed my position.
Here again you are not reading your bible. God didn't say anything after the test, it was the angel.
Touché
Well you tell me;Deuteronomy : "Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name"Proverbs: "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction."Ecclesiastes: " Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man."Peter: " Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor"
Okay, again, why are you trying to drive that point home?
Well here again. The BIBLE makes it clear that it was a bet FFS!
Okay. What is your point? I think I explained that.
You mean you want to change the meaning and definitions of words when they turn out not to agree with or support your own argument.
I mean that I want to make sure I understand your conclusions as a whole and not try to trap you on a single word. If the definition of a word is vague due to overuse or the time in history that it was used, I want to make sure we both come to the same idea of what is being said. If I flip flop on a point, then by all means, bust my chops, but if I try to expound on what I am trying to say, relax.
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@ludofl3x
Well, unless what they want to do is depart from God's plan, right? "You can do whatever you want until it's different from something I want" doesn't sound like free will as I understand it.
I think our definition of "God's plan" needs to be defined. When I say God's plan, I mean an over-all thing, like the book of revelation stuff. Where you or I would fit in this book is more than likely irrelevant, but he will use a few key people to get this thing done. For the vast, vast majority of people, he will not override our freewill. For the few that he will use, he will place thoughts in their mind to have them do what he wants. This typically is done with leaders of nations but I can't find the reference off hand.
I'm still confused. Is there or isn't there free will, and does god know or not know the entire future? If it's not the entire future, then how does he have an "ON THE WHOLE" plan?
Yes there is a free-will and God can decide to override it to work his plan as I discussed above. I'm not sure why an exception to the rule to too hard to understand.
Please keep in mind that God is more powerful in every aspect that we have, so when I say he can see every possible future, it's not that far fetched. So yes, he can see every possible future for every person and within those possibilities is his plan embedded in it.
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@Stephen
I feel we are running rabbit trails here, so let me try to straighten this out.
Some serious backpaddling going on there. And you have told us that Abraham "knew god wouldn't let him kill his son". So if they both knew one another's thoughts and actions, then there it wasn't a test at all, was it. Please let that sink in. It is not that difficult to work out using your own fkn logic.
You have accused me of backpaddling twice now but I thought I have been clear on the difference of a thought or intent and the action that follows through. Where is the backpaddling?
As for Abraham "knew". Knew probably wasn't the term I was looking for because my intention was to show that Abraham believed that God wouldn't allow it to happen. But, if your definition of "knew" is that Abraham could read God's thoughts, then yes, it would be a dumb test. That is not what I was trying to convey.
No. The BIBLE makes that clear. Not me. otherwise again, what was the test all about. Why are you denying that which the bible clearly states?
Of course the bible states at the end that God says that he knows that Abraham fears him, but what is your point? Are you saying that you think God is interested/wanting/desiring that everyone fears him?
So what was the whole reason for putting his loyal and righteous servant through all of that pain , misery and sorrowful grief?
It is a reason that I cannot understand, but you would know that God and Satan were debating whether Job would serve God if all his goods and family were taken away. God believed that Job loved him more than all the things and family he has and Satan didn't, so the test was on.
Tell me. What would have been god's reaction had Abraham refused to kill his son Isaac?
Good question. If I were to speculate, he would have been punished somehow, just like Moses striking the rock twice out of anger.
What do you think would have happened?
You have kept your own private so don't be so rude as to enquire of mine.
My profile is filled out. Yours is all unknown. Also, you never asked me so I never divulged.
Opinion counts for nothing and neither does what you think of me. So can you leave the slights and veiled insults right here. I see. Well I am always ready to learn something new from you about scripture and religion in general.....as long as you don't mind me questioning you on what you may have to teach me. I look forward to it.
Relax. There was no veiled insult here. I'm not afraid of my beliefs being questioned either. We have already had a small discourse in the "lord's prayer" thread that you have given me something to think about.
My "even playing field" was referring to how much bible knowledge you have and how much you know of God and the scriptures as a Christian. If I know where you come from, then I can adjust my answers to make more sense to you, but all I'm doing now is taking stabs in the dark about how you would accept my answers. Our dialogue recently tells me that we are arguing over some miscommunication too.
I hate the "exact word" debate because it doesn't tell of the whole that is trying to be conveyed.
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@ludofl3x
I do not believe anybody's life is on a set course like a movie. They have freewill to decide what they want to do. Every action will alter the future in God's mind. So if I start to go left, God will see all the outcomes that will happen with that direction.
For any scripture referring to future events AS A WHOLE, God does know this and will alter ideas or mindsets to make sure this happens. So specifically, the Exodus. He has a grand plan for the Exodus and the tabernacle to be representing his coming and later his church. So he made sure this was shown through the plagues and pass over night, then the passing through the red sea, etc. Now if someone maybe tripped crossing over the red sea, that didn't destroy God's plan. It was being acted out as a whole. The individual decisions of the people and of the Egyptians in this event didn't affect the overall outcome of the Israelites crossing over and Pharoah's army drowning as the red sea passage closed.
So, in this case, God decided to use the Egyptian people as an example and the fact that he rained judgement on them for killing his people is God's business. The fact that he kept the Israelites there longer than you think was needed was also his business.
I guess when you get a chance to run the universe, you could make some different decisions, but as it stands, this is what he decided to do.
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@Stephen
I think I didn't communicate this clearly. Let me try again. I do not believe in "moving the goal post".
I do believe that God knows what you are thinking and what you are intending, BUT your actions will determine what really happens. Your thoughts and intentions can change and therefore you will not always act out those thoughts and intentions. God will not know what you do until you actually do it, hence the need for God to know if Abraham will follow through on his directive. Actions speak louder than words or thoughts in this case.
So for what God knows of the future is every possible outcome you could have with any action you perform. I do not believe that our lives play out like a movie that there is no changing from the script.
As for Abraham knowing God wasn't going to follow thru, Abraham was given orders and he is carrying them out. What he supposed to do? Turn to God and say "oh yeah right God! You aren't really going to want me to kill my boy. Come on. Do I really have to do what you ask?" Besides, have you not had the intentions to perform some sort of stunt, say skydiving? You really want to go, but just never followed thru and signed up? Same concept here.
You are really hanging on the whole idea that Abraham feared God and and trying to drive home that is what the test was for. I agree that God wanted to know if Abraham feared God and the ultimate test would be to sacrifice his son. BTW, the "fear" here is referring to reverence. Something like a feeling from a son to a father. Respect that this person could really whoop you if they wanted to.
As for Job, I agree that the death of others for the sake of God's bragging rights sounds brutal. I cannot tell you why this happened. I do know it wasn't because God is "wicked" and mean and such.
As for me grasping at straws, you fail to recognize any other aspects of the bible where God does deliver someone out of trouble, does help a widow, does revive a child and gives Job twice as much in the end of his affliction. You are only focused on the "bad" of God and will spit nails at anyone who says God is just, righteous or good to them. A repeating "no it doesn't" is also no way to have a conversation. And in my opinion, you are showing your elite mind set by telling me I am too confident in my beliefs. I know your opinions are rooted in a tainted view of God and the bible and pastors and church leadership, but have you ever been involved in any of that?
This is why I want to know your religious background. Your views are very ignorant if you only cherry pick the scriptures and don't understand the God of the bible. So if it sounds like I'm not listening or moving the goal post, that's not the case. If you have no background with the Bible, then we are not on the same playing field.
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@FLRW
How are you getting pro-abortion on this? From the life of children and the unborn in the womb being snuffed out from the flood waters?
Judgement doesn't equal a "pro" or "con" one topic. The problem was the whole earth was wicked and God brought judgement. Look at it in the whole context.
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