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Money is a medium of exchange which allows trade to take place. Trade in a large complex society would seem to be impossible for a species of our phscology to engage in without the existence of money or some equivalent concept. If I want to obtain ten gallons of fuel for my car it would be very inconvenient if I had to go door-to-door to each of my neighbors to find one that just happens to have some spare gas and also just happens to want something that I just happen to have. And where does this fuel come from anyway? The infrastructure behind providing energy products such as fuel to a modern society it actually quite complex. Would the oil drillers all be paid in oil that they are expected to take time out of their day to find someone willing to give them all their daily needs for? Are the refinery operators paid in fuel they refine from oil? Suddenly everyone is taking hours out of their day just to find people willing to trade basic needs such as food for whatever random junk they happen to have lying around. Then there is the real estate business... How does my agent decide which offer to accept when one guy is offering 2.3 metric tons of iron ore that he saved up from being a local miner, one guy is offering his F 250 truck whose bed is loaded with coal, and a third is offering three dairy cows and forty unused white T-shirts?
Specialization is the backbone of modern society and it is impossible to have without some form of universal or near-universal easy exchange system such as what money provides. But does it have value by itself? Of course not.
All his anxiety has regard not to the means which are provided for the sake of an object, but to the object for the sake of which they are provided. And although we may often say that gold and silver are highly valued by us, that is not the truth; for there is a further object, whatever it may be, which we value most of all, and for the sake of which gold and all out other possessions are acquired by us. Am I not right?
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@Dr.Franklin
Doubt it. Looking forward to seeing my martial art metaphor by RM though.
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@Crocodile
Evil ones are easier to predict that moral ones.
A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. Honestly. It's the honest ones you want to watch out for, because you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly... stupid.
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@User_2006
Heck, I can draw better than him.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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@WaterPhoenix
No idea why I was tagged
I was originally going to tag everyone that was recently in the thread but decided not to and I thought I erased everyone from the tag list but I guess I missed you somehow.
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@PressF4Respect
Here to take down us American dogs... and pigs... and various other animals and humans.
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Oh you know what it didn't even register in my brain until I saw this thread that crocky had his thread in the main subforum. Yeah, he should probably have made it somewhere else.
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@PressF4Respect
Holy mother of the free market this man's a genuine commie aint he press?
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@Crocodile
People who work hard can get needs from the government without having to pay. They pay with their work.
You already said that. I am asking you to go onto detail about how that would work.
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@Crocodile
Why should we need a proxy, instead of giving needs directly to humans themselves?
I still want to hear the details of how this works given it is the central theme of your whole idea here.
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@zedvictor4
Realistically? No.
In theory? Also no.
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@3RU7AL
Let's not rush-to-disqualify (ad hominem) everyone who fails to recognize our obvious individual genius, dismissing them as "crazy, stupid, evil, dishonest, and or intellectually blind" and "a lost cause" or "human trash" or "trolls".
I'm just saying, there are people who I have had to take time to explain why it is impossible for 100% of a group to be better than that group average at something... Took several paragraphs to lay it out and they still don't get it. The fact that I get it doesn't make me a genius it just means I paid attention in grade school.
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@WaterPhoenix
Once upon a time there were two people that owned stock in a company. The value of that stock was increasing.
The first person thought to themselves "I wonder what causes the value increase that is happening." They looked into it and discovered that it was because the company was performing activities that interacted with the economy to generate profit. This inevitably lead to the realization that investment doesn't generate wealth, it merely transfers it from one agent to another.
The second person thought to themselves "Wow the value is increasing that means I have more money now than I did before that is so cool I bet it can go all the way to INFINITY! hahaha ZOOOOM!!!"
You can probably guess which one went on to be a more successful investor.
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@Dr.Franklin
No prob friend.
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It is blatantly obvious that having 100% of the population live an above average lifestyle is impossible.And my point is a question: Why is it impossible? Give me a good reason why it is impossible. A GOOD reason.
Take the GDP of a country and divide it by that country's population. That is how averaging works. Take any number that is more than that averaged number (in other words any number that is 'above average') and multiply it by that country's population (in other words apply an above average lifestyle to 100% of the population). You will see that the number you end with is greater than the GDP, in other words the GDP is not able to support what you requested. The GDP is the total produced value of a country, therefore what this tells us is the country physically does not produce enough to sustain your request (that 100% be above average)
You will notice I did not use any example numbers of my own. That is because this applies to ANY numbers that you might plug in yourself, not just some specific time and place. It is a universal.
Now you know that it is impossible to have 100% of a population be above average. Welcome to grade school maths. If you require a second lesson let me know at any time.
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@Dr.Franklin
On the current mobile version just press the three bars in the top right and scroll to the bottom of the menu on the left. Select the "notification settings" option near the bottom. Deselect all the options then press the update button.
I have not used the desktop version since the update so ask someone else if you need help with that.
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@fauxlaw
Look, pressF has demonstrated that the money supply of a stable economy will always be less than infinity dollars but the money supply isn't even relevant to my original point. It is blatantly obvious that having 100% of the population live an above average lifestyle is impossible. That isn't even economics at that point, it's just grade school maths.
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@n8nrgmi
so do you usually support libertarians? cause that's what u sound like.
Lmao inLin what waydway does faux sound like apa libertarian? Libertarians don't pretend that there is infinity money kiddo. That is what the conservatives and liberals do.
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Why should we need a proxy, instead of giving needs directly to humans themselves?
Lmao okay please do go into detail on how this would work.
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@PressF4Respect
Capitalism help us...
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@PressF4Respect
God help us...
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@PressF4Respect
it will need some tweaking to make it relatively troll-safe.
I still think the dumbs are a bigger problem than the trolls. I literally had a guy in a recent economics forum conversation that asked me to provide evidence of my "bold claim" that there is less than infinity money on the planet.
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@Dr.Franklin
i dont think thats a loss, I remember getting an email and having to look at my phone only to see someone tagged me
It is possible to disable email notifications.
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@3RU7AL
Have you encountered any arguments that lead you to rethink or retool (sharpen) your own ideas?
Yes, though not in the debates I have been a participant in.
Would you be averse to giving those participants some token credit for contributing to your intellectual skill?
As something that is completely separate from ELO (which I now see is what you propose, I missed that before) then perhaps yes. It would probably need a few tweaks but the basic premise isn't bad so long as it doesn't have anything to do with the leaderboard.
PressF's main concern was that people might not be willing to give points even if they know that their opponents argument is clearly superior due to being dishonest. My main concern would be people who have a clearly inferior argument but honestly do not even realize it due to being... What's the PC word for it? Oh yeah, due to being retarded.
Wouldn't you want to seek out debates with individuals who show a consistent ability and willingness to help others refine their arguments and who are willing to acknowledge when their own arguments have been strengthened by yours?
As my bio says, mundi magister meus est. The world is my teacher. If your proposal has nothing to do with the leaderboards then I think it has a lot of potential merit.
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@3RU7AL
No noob sniping. No dirty tricks. No semantic shenanigans. Just reasonable people presenting their best arguments for honest scrutiny.
That describes my current debate strategy pretty accurately. I currently have a 100% win rate. If all my debates to date were scored in the method you suggest that would fall to a 12.5% win rate, most would be ties with no points awarded and maybe one or two losses.
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@3RU7AL
Please explain if you believe the proposed CIVIL DEBATE framework is "less wrong" than the current system.
I don't.
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@RationalMadman
debating as a sport should be abolished, it should solely be about seeking truth
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@3RU7AL
So if I understand you right you are saying that the problem is that the voters are all biased in favor of one debater or the other and your solution is to make the debaters themselves be the voters...
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@PressF4Respect
I accept your apology, I guess... You coming to music night?
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@RationalMadman
Until you are as good as I am and at times able to defeat 7 paragraphs with 4-5 sentences
Eh, voters still gotta read the seven paragraphs though.
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Analyzing a debate where both debaters are competent and all of the arguments are well-thought-out is tedious and time-consuming, without much in return. Very few people have the time and mental energy to do this and write-up a sufficiently detailed RFD on an informal debate website. Furthermore, as people generally take the path of action with the least resistance, they will inevitably vote for the least mentally taxing debates, as they only have to put in a fraction of the work to get the same results.
Nail on the head.
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@RationalMadman
@Vader
@WaterPhoenix
@User_2006
I don't really care, what time though.
This Friday 8 PM to 10 PM if that fits with all of you. Want to make sure we are done before Supa's bedtime.
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@fauxlaw
You want me to give evidence that the money supply is limited?!?!
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@fauxlaw
Feudalism was an economic system based upon land ownership, in which land owners severely limited the profit potential of serfs.
Was pretty good for the nobles though.
Further, feudalism ceased being an economic system in the 15th century.
You are incorrectly implying that it is impossible to bring feudalism back. A more convincing and more honest answer would be to correctly argue that bringing it back would be a bad thing.
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@fauxlaw
It wan't black magic. It was ambition, planning, and execution. Who can't do that?
Everyone is the answer to your question, and I mean that literally. Yes every person is individually capable of doing that as things currently stand (with a bit of work and a lot of luck of course) but if everyone applied themselves at the same time it would not turn out the same as you seem to suggest. That is why it is best for those of us trying to move up if our peers remain docile as they currently are in modern society. Much easier for one to move up if one is the only person trying to do so.
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@fauxlaw
Feudalism
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@Barney
What would your ideal voting policy look like?
There would be a line in there about voting against Discipulus_Didicit being prohibited.
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@RationalMadman
@Vader
@WaterPhoenix
@User_2006
Not this Saturday I changed my mind. Friday is better.
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@RationalMadman
@Vader
@WaterPhoenix
@User_2006
This Saturday?
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@TheUnderdog
I don't think it's satire.
Did you actually read it or just the headline?
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@TheUnderdog
Either way, if he was responsible for the abortion,
What abortion? You realize the link you pasted in post one is satire right? It didn't actually happen in real life.
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@HistoryBuff
The problem is not his political affiliation.
Are you seriously suggesting that we judge him based on his own merit rather than whether there is an (R) or a (D) next to his name on the TV screen?!?!
This is America, sir! We will have none of that outlandish talk here!
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@PressF4Respect
Press F for respects to the Free Market.
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@ethang5
@TheUnderdog
According to my friend ethang Trump is pro-life which means you are wrong.
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@Dr.Franklin
Capitalism
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@Dr.Franklin
were not friends anymore:(
Wrong.
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