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@Timid8967
So are you saying it is silly depending upon my conception of hell?
No, you asked us what made us stop believing so I'm answering. Simple answer is I stopped believing when I realized how silly my beliefs were and in hindsight realize that the fear I had is the reason I never realized it before. I was too scared to examine it critically.
But looking back at it now, it's all silly. An almighty creator who watches over all of us and punishes us for being bad? It's the stuff of a children's book.
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@thett3
Of course, so without intervention we would certainly expect black outcomes to lag white outcomes, at least for a few generations.
Then why are you arguing with me? The first comment you responded to was my question about whether the large racial wealth gap in this country is coincidence, to which you replied yes. So which is it?
My problem is there actually has been significant intervention for quite a while now (affirmative action, great society programs, special minority only scholarships) but things aren’t getting better.
Those aren't significant
That’s not something that is fixed through reparations or whatever but through rebuilding communities and a healthy economy.
Agreed, which is why I'm post #3 of this thread I said I was not for reparations. I do recognize that some people are calling that reparations but it doesn't fit into the definition and to me is a terrible way to make the point because it is horribly unclear.
In fact all this racial politics stuff just makes the situation worse by dividing workers and obfuscating the real issue
Which is part of the problem. Why are white people so sensitive to this conversation? I mean look at the freak out over critical race theory...
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@zedvictor4
"Racist" is just another reference to the good ole, us and them thing.....Whether it be Democrat, Republican or Black, White or English, Scottish etc etc etc.
Trump literally kicked off his political campaign by calling Mexicans rapists. What would you call that?
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@TheUnderdog
Do you believe a child born into a family that is uneducated, is more or less likely to grow up educated?In my personal experience, the vast majority of kids were going to college, whether their parents were educated or not.
I'm not asking about college, im asking about basic knowledge and skills ones needs to be successful within a given society. If for example, a child grows up in a household living off of welfare, do you believe this child is now or less likely to grow up understanding how investing and entrepreneurship works? Answer: of course not.
Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to live in poverty as an adult?Yes; but their skin color isn't a factor in this.
I didn't say anything about skin color. It's a simple question and the answer is obvious; yes, of course they are.
You can't expect the child of a slave to learn anything about the society they are trying to navigate through.Black people despite being descendants of slaves can learn just fine.
I never said they couldn't. The question isn't about their abilities, it's about their opportunities. You can't expect it because their parents were in no position to teach them anything about the world so they are starting off with a clear and significant disadvantage, especially when you consider the climate they were in.
So add of of this up and what do you get? A very simple equation. If the decendants of slaves were significantly disadvantaged, there is a far less likelihood that they would have been successful. Multiply those odds a few more times and you get right about to where we are today. Conclusion: the wealth gap in this country is not a coincidence.
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@thett3
Do you have evidence that the descendants of people who owned slaves 150 years ago are wealthier than the descendants of white people who didn’t own slaves, and if so, where that gap came from?
The argument is not that white slave owners became wealthy all because they owned slaves and now those slave owners have to give that wealth back. The argument is that black people were systematically kept from being able to attain their own wealth for centuries, and then unleashed with nothing into a society where wealth begets wealth.
I really don't understand what is so complicated about this. Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to remain in poverty thoughout their life? All you need is to understand the fact that the answer is yes. From there it's just basic math.
In probability there are always outliers, but based on the law of large numbers it's a statical impossibility that an entire race of people systematically kept in poverty will within 150 years catch up to the race that started off literally owning everything, so to say that you think it's just coincidence is absurd.
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@zedvictor4
Just as you cherry picked one line from my previous post.
Cherry picking is when you present an argument based on only the facts that suit your narrative and disregard those that don't. I wasn't presenting an argument, I was responding to a comment. Big difference.
Instead of whinning because I didn't respond to the points you wanted me to, I think it would be better if you actually defended your own statement.
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@TheUnderdog
If I don't benefit from an infrastructure project then a tax is essentially a punishment for being rich.
Punishment is by definition, an act of retribution. This is not remotely the same thing. Please stop with this argument, it really makes you look bad.
The legacy of slavery doesn't impact blacks today anymore than marital rape being legal in the past harms women today.
Marital rape did not stop families from attaining wealth that could have been passed down to their children.
There are lurking variables... Whites are less likely to grow up in single motherhood homes, and more likely to invest in stock that gets 10% richer every year. When these things happen, of course whites are going to be richer than blacks.
You ignored the entire point of my post. What you just described are the results of the experiment I described. I'm taking about the cause.
Do you believe a child raised without a father is more or less likely to raise their own child?
Do you believe a child born into a family that is uneducated, is more or less likely to grow up educated?
Do you believe a child born into poverty is more or less likely to live in poverty as an adult?
It's as if you have no concept of how today impacts tomorrow, or how each of us as individuals are molded by our experiences. You can't expect the child of a slave to learn anything about the society they are trying to navigate through. That is a clear systemic disadvantage that can be expected to carry on to their decendants, especially when that same society would spend the next 100 or so years doing what it can to ensure their decendants remain disadvantaged.
I know you want to make this complicated but it's actually really simple... The racial wealth gap in this country is not a coincidence. That's it, that's all.
Reperations would be incredibly expensive if paid to their logical conclusion
I don't know why you're bothering since I already made clear in post #3 that I don't believe in reparations. I'm just pointing out why your arguments here are terrible.
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@drlebronski
That's the thing I find most amusing - trying to argue that the guy who attracts all of the racists is less of a racist than the guy they all voted against. Right wingers love to cherry pick things Trump has said or done whole ignoring the bulk of the evidence to the contrary, but damn dude, just take a step back. This really isn't complicated.
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@Conway
It's a generalization. I'm not suggesting that giving to a family in Oregon will make your life better, but to hold that our fortunes are not intertwined would be absurd. We may be individuals but we don't live our lives in a vacuum, everything we do and every decision we make will have some impact on someone else. The society you live in is nothing more than the collective result of everyone's actions and decisions.
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@Timid8967
Why is Hell silly? And just because I like consistency, have you heard of the conditional immortality or soul sleep or annihilation?
Depends on your conception of hell. Mine was a literal place off eternal torment and torture. It's silly because here we have the almighty creator of everything who can do whatever he wants, and he decides he will create us (his beloved children) and then create a place where he will spend the rest of eternity torturing us for not living up to his subjective standards after having created us in such a way that he knew not all of us would. Imagine trying to explain that to someone whose never heard of this.
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@Timid8967
For me it was more of an epiphany. I always believed god was all loving, all powerful, and also that we would go to hell if we didn’t believe. It wasn’t till about 30 that I realized how self contradictory those 3 qualities were, and atheism followed very shortly after.
What I realize is that this fear of hell I had instilled in me stopped me from applying the same critical thinking skills I used towards everything else to my religious viewpoints. As soon as I realized how silly the concept of hell really was it was like the shackles had been broken. I could finally see straight.
What I realize is that this fear of hell I had instilled in me stopped me from applying the same critical thinking skills I used towards everything else to my religious viewpoints. As soon as I realized how silly the concept of hell really was it was like the shackles had been broken. I could finally see straight.
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@TheUnderdog
You can't punish people for things they legally did.
One of the most common gripes black people have with white people is the way white people manage to make everything about them and their own victim hood. This is another perfect example.
Reparations isn’t punishment any more than an infrastructure project in Kentucky is punishment to anyone not living in Kentucky. You really need to drop this argument.
Reparations is about trying to right the wrongs of the past, not because those actions were wrong morally but because the legacy of slavery still impacts the black community today.
Question; do you think it’s just coincidence that the same race who enslaved and thereby built their wealth on top of the free labor of black people, today have a median net worth that is 20 times that of the median black household?
If you do then let’s perform the following experiment; let’s spend, say, the next 400 years enslaving every White person and building the nations wealth on their free labor. Then, suddenly, let them free into a society where wealth begets wealth while giving them nothing, not educate them, and see how well they bounce back. We’ll check in in about 150 years to see if they caught up. Oh, and did I mention that the bulk of those 150 years would be spent enforcing Jim Crow laws, redlining, and mass incarceration? Yeah, let me know how that goes.
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@TheUnderdog
I just explained why it doesn’t work to claim that only those who wish to donate should, and your response was that I’m free to donate if I wish.
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@ILikePie5
It’s an easily observable fact to anyone who cares about reality.
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@ILikePie5
“I know you are but what am I” is literally the GOP’s political strategy.
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@zedvictor4
Some people prefer to overlook the fact that Africans enslaved each other long before the Spanish and others took over the business and made it global.
Because it’s not relevant to the conversation.
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@zedvictor4
Some people prefer to overlook the fact that Africans enslaved each other long before the Spanish and others took over the business and made it global.
Because it’s not relevant to the conversation.
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@drlebronski
No. There are many things we can do to cure some of the evil legacies of slavery, but nothing that would be both just and reasonably called reparations.
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@TheUnderdog
Do you have a response to any of the points I actually made?
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@Wylted
Sounds like you are a terrible negotiator
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@Wylted
"We should conpromise"Absolutely not, it is disgusting.
So rather than getting half of what you want you prefer nothing?
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@TheUnderdog
There are also some families in Africa that can't afford food. If you think they should get food, your free to send money over there but taxes and foreign aid makes this a requirement since non consenting strangers foot the bill. It should not be a requirement to give to poor people, whether those poor people are in America or Africa.
You seem to miss the concept of being part of a society. Like it or not, all of our fortunes are intertwined with each other, so when someone else donates to the poor you are indirectly benefiting from that transaction. And if we agree that there should be some kind of help for people in need then every selfish asshole effectively has an advantage for being a selfish asshole since only the kind and generous people would pay into it. Not exactly what I would call an optimal system.
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@sadolite
Democrats represent working class Americans and struggling Americans, so pretty much anyone who is not rich. They also represent anyone who believes in democracy.
BTW, it’s the Democratic Party
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@drlebronski
It really is a shame. I enjoyed that site, but whoever is running it now clearly doesn’t give a rats ass about it.
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Sorry your preference is the same old, same old, but I am hardly surprised
No, my preference is that of you’re going to start a thread, when someone directly addresses your nonsense you acknowledge what they say and respond rather than changing the subject and then say “hey, it’s my thread”. So yes it is your thread, congratulations on your accomplishment. Let me know when you would like to join the conversation you started.
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@fauxlaw
I think you replied to the wrong person, because that has absolutely nothing to do with anything said here in this thread.
Also, not sure if you’re aware of this but investigating potential crimes is kind of what the people at SDNY do for a living, so I’m not sure what it is you think them investigating something shows, or how this has anything to do with Trump living inside my head.
And BTW, it’s not Trump that I have a bit of an obsession with, it’s the fact that so many idiots really think he is someone who should have ever been taken seriously as a presidential candidate, let alone was actually a good president. He’s literally the embodiment of everything a president should not be.
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@ILikePie5
It’s obvious if all you consume is Hannity and Tucker Carlson.
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@fauxlaw
Tell me what's sick about that?
Making it home safely after deciding to drink and drive, does not mean those who expressed concern over your decision to drink and drive were not justified.
Yes, it appears America has dodged the bullet of a man who thinks the justice department is his own personal law firm and wants to know why more of them are not like Roy Cohn from selecting SC picks that would function as political hacks. That doesn’t mean this is the guy who should be making those picks.
It is also important to point out that the bullet hasn’t yet been fully dodged. Trump wasn’t able to find the hacks he was looking for because right now they are very hard to find, but his contempt for the rule of law has infected an entire political party and this is breeding more of his ilk. This is dangerous no matter what the final outcome turns out to be
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@Wylted
He essentially is threatening to send military grade weapons against dissidents who want a voice in their government.
Biden is making the same argument gun safety advocates have been making for decades. It’s a *response* to those who argue that guns should be readily available everywhere as a means of fighting back government tyranny. Biden is saying that this is outdated thinking, and anyone who thinks they are going to overthrow the US government (which is exactly what planet Trump extremists want) are no match for the US military.
Why does this need to be explained?
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@ILikePie5
Wow I didn’t know you could read Trump’s mind?
How many times does Trump have to demonstrate his mindset before you are allowed to draw a conclusion about what kind of a person he is? As if we do not already have a mountain of evidence that he is a childish, petulant, vile, narcisist.
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We're just looking at experiences of that nature that may reflect the reality of that somethings existence. The point of course is that the fact they occur could be because it exists.
And it could also be the product of our own imaginations. So how would we tell the difference? And if we can't then what is the point of all of this? Why attribute what is inside our heads to something whose existence we have no demonstration of?
if God exists or some type or types of transcendent reality exist then we would expect to see a lot of observation, experiences, testimonies of that nature. Since in fact there is an overwhelming data base to pull from what are the chances it reflects the truth of the proposition?
We have no idea, because we have no access to a transcendent reality so we couldn't possibly know what we would experience if one existed or what the probability of anything involving it would be.
calling spiritual experiences confirmation bias is speculation
It's a lot more than speculation. The claim that an experience was spiritual is an unfalsifiable proposition, thus anyone who holds it to be true is biased almost by definition.
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@EtrnlVw
If you don't think human experience accounts for anything, just say no and perhaps why you think it does not.
I just did. You paid no attention to the message and instead focused on trigger words.
"Things that do not exist cannot be the cause of other things" is not speculation, it's logic 101. It follows from the definition of "not exist".
Because something that does not exist cannot cause other things, logically, the only *candidate* explanations are those which exist.
Because a candidate explanation must first exist before it can cause anything, you cannot use something as an explanation if its existence has yet to be demonstrated.
God's existence has yet to be demonstrated, therefore human experiences cannot be attributed to him.
Note that everything I just said is generalized. I'm not referring to you specifically.
Confirmation bias lol? I'm asking what YOU think, not what I think.
You asked how spiritual experiences could occur if there were no God so I gave you my answer... Confirmation bias. Calling something a spiritual experience does not mean it was the product of the spiritual.
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@ILikePie5
Same reason why Hussein didn’t release his shit and why Bush didn’t before him.
You know damn well if Trump's grades were actually impressive he would never stop bragging about them.
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@Greyparrot
Holy fuckballs, are you seriously going to double down on the retarded idea that land is scarce? In America of all places???
Ok, you have to be trolling, no one is this stupid.
Come to NYC and show me the abundance of land you seem to think exists, or, perhaps you can explain how proximity to downtown areas has no impact on the value of land.
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@Greyparrot
@ILikePie5
I love question dodgers.4 more years of "WhataboutTrumpism" will surely unify the nation.
You two wana get a room?
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@Greyparrot
Non-citizens and dead people don't have that right, The only way to ensure a citizen's vote won't be nullified by a non-citizen is through election safeguards and ensuring election integrity.
Election integrity already is assured. Republicans have been obsessed for decades now with finding evidence of some kind of fraud they can use the as a pretext for these laws and have found nothing. The only thing that is different now are the limits of what politicians can get away with thanks to Donald Trump who taught the Republican Party how to gaslight their base and how much their base loves it.
But that aside, your argument sounds good because it’s made in the abstract. The issue is not the idea of voters proving who they are before casting their ballots, it’s the reality of what that looks like and the precision with which these things always affect minority communities. You’re not stupid enough to believe republicans don’t know this as they are crafting these laws.
Americans have a right to fair and secure elections and elections that are free to Americans only.
Correct. Now provide the evidence that anyone other than Americans are participating in our elections.
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@Greyparrot
Legal Nigerian immigrants have Black Skin and are the wealthiest demographic in America.Specifically which class of Black Skinned people are you talking about?
The entirety, not the sub-group you cherry picked because it fits your narrative.
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@Greyparrot
I would be happy to school you about basic concepts of land value if you are not trolling as usual.
You aren’t serious enough to school me, on anything. But you are more than welcome to try. Enlighten me as to how democrats not knowing how to produce land is the reason people are leaving NY and CA.
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@Wylted
The ruler of America is being controlled by people behind the scenes. This is very scary
Q1: If this claim the right wing has concocted were in fact false, how could it be falsified?
Q2: What in your view is the link between a claim that is unfalsifiable and the potential the rationally justify that claim?
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Voter ID laws are not racist and there is no reasonable argument to the contrary.
So if it is well known ahead of time that a new voter ID law will disproportionally affect black peoples and the law is passed anyway with no effort to rectify the effect… you don’t think that is racist?
If you have to have a state-issued ID to buy alcohol or tobacco, there is absolutely no reason why requiring the same is unreasonable to vote.
I’ve always hated this argument. Rather than comparing voting to buying alcohol, do you have another example of a constitutionally guaranteed right that requires you to attain a government issued ID?
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@Greyparrot
Prices are high because supply is low. Communist redistributionist Democrats have no fucking clue how to produce things just like the former Soviet Union.
WTF? Supply is low because there’s no more space. You don’t produce land.
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@Wylted
I’m not trying to make you feel worse about your thoughts, I’m trying to get you to recognize the value of epistemology and critical thinking. And I do respond to your premises. In one of the last threads I went through a point by point by point breakdown of everything wrong with your argument on democrats using polling to cheat. You responded to none of it, which is fine I guess if you agree with what I said, but somehow I suspect I’ll be seeing you post the same stuff in another few weeks or so.
Regarding the work stuff, don’t you think you’re going overboard? No different than a serial killer for working at Wendy’s?
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@Wylted
It's impossible to see the world as it truly is. Our perceptions are imperfect, we are working on incomplete information and we may just be brains in a vat
So you just give up and succumb to whatever fanciful notions seem appealing to you?
We’ll never see the world 100% accurately. That doesn’t mean we can’t refine our thinking to tune ourselves as closely as possible.
Part of what I do for a living is scheduling and budgeting. When I first started in my position, the schedule was worthless. We had people all over the place when we didn’t need them, and we didn’t have people when we did. The thinking was that our business was unpredictable, so we just used one flat schedule. When I came in I looked at the data, found patterns, and scheduled to those patterns. Turns out our business was far more predictable than believed. Do I always get it right? No, of course not. But my decisions are informed and are a lot more accurate as a result. Since then our customer satisfaction has gone way up and we’ve done it while saving on payroll. You don’t need to be omniscient, you just need to accurately understand what’s happening.
Life works exactly the same. It’s not a question of black or white, it’s a question of which shade of grey you’re in. Right now your shade is way off, and if the attitude and method of reasoning you demonstrate here transfer to your every day decisions I sincerely doubt you are making the most of yourself.
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@Greyparrot
They literally lost congressional seats and want to brag about how Democrat states are so fucking great.
Genius, people are leaving NY and CA because it’s expensive as hell. And why is it so expensive? Because people want to live there and are willing to pay absurd prices as a result. No one is moving to red states because you know… republicans.
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@Wylted
If things are gray than you can not move and are caught in paralysis of analysis. If you can't determine precisely the correct move, you shouldn't make one.
The correct move is the one that aligns to reality. The world is a nuanced place. That will always be true whether you accept it or not, no matter how inconvenient it is to you. I suggest you learn to see the world for what it actually is, even if it does take work.
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@Wylted
Senate republicans says the election was legit. LoL
In other words, “I’m just going to believe whatever I want to because it makes me feel good. To hell with the evidence, to hell with logic and reason, it’s all about protecting my ego and need to see nefarious puppet masters pulling the world strings rather than understanding the complexities of the world I live in”
Heard you.
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@Greyparrot
50 years of "democracy" and "governing" has forever fucked New York and California.I would take any alternative to that bullshit.
lol ok bro, because everyone wants to live in Kentucky.
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@Wylted
Use blockchain technology for voting to ensure both anonymity and accuracy of the ballot. A full proof system has already been created that would erase the need for voter ID, but democrats reject it, because it would be impossible to cheat in such a system.
I asked you how we go about meeting your standard of evidence to believe in the results of an election. If this is your answer, then you’re saying you will not accept the results of any election as long as it’s done with paper. Is that correct?
We can see the democrats messing with elections. For example they lied and projected Hillary to win. Studies show that when a person thinks their candidate will lose, they are less likely to actually vote. What motive other than that can we have for them lying about Hillary being projected to win? They also lied and projected Brexit to fail.Reagan was predicted to lose. Why do they always get it wrong in advantage of democrats but not republicans? My theory is that it is not a coincidence they always get it wrong to demoralize the same group, instead of wrongness being random.
First of all, polls and projections are just data. It’s not a conspiracy. The only evidence you have is that it fits your narrative. This is confirmation bias on steroids.
Second, there have been plenty of democratic upsets. Were those pollsters also in on a “conspiracy” to hurt the republican? Or does it only count when it fits your narrative?
Third, projections are just that. Getting a projection wrong means pollsters are not omniscient, not that they’re lying. Why do I need to explain this?
Fourth, this has absolutely nothing to do with fraud. Even if everything I just said was false, putting out messages to the public to try and sway their vote is called politics. It’s literally the entire point of having a campaign.
And just as a bonus, Hillary was given an 83% chance of winning. That’s about 1 in 6. Spend five minutes with some dice and let me know how many times the dice conspired to lie to you about what number you “randomly” rolled.
The biggest problems with ballots were in urban areas. Republican areas voting went smoothly and without a hitch, but in liberal areas there was all kinds of funny business. I just don't hear any reports coming out in areas republicans won,
That’s because republicans have manipulated you nicely. All of these “voting irregularities” are complete bullshit and the republicans at the top know it. But they also know if they can just point to one thing after another that looks funny out of context, then they can manipulate enough people to support them as they change election laws in their favor. It’s such an absurdly transparent strategy…
Claim voter fraud > watch as your base believes you > use their belief as a pretext for new voting laws
Do you ever notice how ever time a republican politician tries to explain why they’re pushing these new laws they say “a lot of people don’t trust the elections”? No shit, because you told them not to. Notice what they don’t do… point to the actual examples of fraud. Why not? Because they know it’s all bullshit and they could never defend it.
BTW, here are Michigan republicans coming out yesterday and saying it was all bullshit:
The reason you don’t hear about this in republican areas because democrats aren’t playing this stupid game. Democrats actually believe in democracy, and governing.
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@Wylted
incorrect. Voter fraud is impossible. If people who run the system insist that the system is fraud proof, because it would likely also expose them as beneficiaries to an unfair system, it must be true.
Serious question;
Taking all aspects of our current voting system into account, if a vote is cast, do you believe the default position is that the vote is a fair and legal vote until proven otherwise, or do you believe every vote must be proven valid despite having made it through our system?
If it’s the latter, I have two more questions for you:
1. How exactly do we go about meeting your standard of evidence to prove the validity of each ballot cast?
2. Can you show me that same standard being used to prove the ballots cast in Trump states and counties were valid?
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@ILikePie5
The Washington Post
“Maryland and North Carolina are essentially tied for the honor of most-gerrymandered state”
Anyways, after this census Texas and Louisiana which hold the other 5 spots will have more compact districts compared to Maryland and Illinois.
Congratulations on being even worse
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