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@disgusted
Hebews 11
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is both substance AND evidence, dum dum. Get it right.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him
That IS what produces confidence and trust...
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@disgusted
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@disgusted
The reward is being intellectually honest.
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@Lunatic
That is if you are into martial arts movies...
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@disgusted
Yes, so scared I can hardly take it. That's always your resolve, get a life.
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@disgusted
Does it matter? you're a troll either way. There's better names for you but I'll leave it at that...
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@Lunatic
Cool, have you seen Fist of Legend, and Kiss of the Dragon?
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Do you view the universe as a living and active phenomenon, or a dry mechanical thing? please explain each opinion if you will. In other words how is it a living phenomenon, how is it a mechanical (non-living) phenomenon.
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@Singularity
There is no evidence atheism is a coping mechanism
How convenient....Who performed a study? since that is what you are so fond of when it pertains to people with opposing views of life even when it doesn't apply.
however you would be correct that even atheistic belief systems come from being a product of your environment
Being a product of environment I have no real issue with per say, because what we observe individually and how we interpret life may have very distinct factors involved. What comes across as ignorant and bias is that having Theistic beliefs is a coping mechanism for whatever you choose to fill in the blanks with...and only derived from stress and anxiety not being able to cope with reality. That is where we draw the line.
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Hmm, I wonder if atheism is some coping mechanism...how can they be so oblivious to something so obvious as creation...or does it have to do with some environmental factors...yeah I think I'm going to start presuming that anyone who holds a materialistic worldview has anxiety. They have just developed a coping mechanism so they don't have to deal with reality, the reality of life after death and stress, what a joke.
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It's funny how we assume so much about environmental factors, culture and "anxiety" among so many worldviews and opinions and then dump it all on religion and Theists when we all exist within the same environments despite beliefs lol, can anyone say bias?? why does it only apply to those who happen to have spiritual beliefs?? are atheists and secular folks immune from this problem?
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@Lunatic
Lol no one likes being told something they've believed in their whole life, can be narrowed down to their environment containing "High stress and anxiety".
And so is this how you account for your own beliefs and understanding of reality? or is this just focused on others? BTW I love your profile pic.
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"The birth of religion has previously been explained as a result of either culture, or environmental factors, but rarely both.Now, a new study suggests it arose out of a medley of ecological, historical, and cultural factors - and may have been used as a coping mechanism."
Lol, this is exactly what I'm talking about. None of this applies to me and I'm sure many others. This is so shallow I don't even know where to begin.
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@Singularity
Did you know that I've never converted from atheism to Theism at any point? that I don't subscribe to any particular organized religion? this has never been about coping for me, but about the correlation of observation and evidence, but carry on..
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@Singularity
You act as if that's some sort of catch all in one study. You'll be surprised if you ask instead of assume.
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@Stephen
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ from the greatest prophet that ever lived.We have to look at this closely. John The baptist prophesies of Jesus coming , he then witnesses a spirit landing on Jesus like “a dove” and also hears the voice of god,but then has serious doubts about Jesus being “the one”?
Is this supposed to actually mean something of significance? perhaps spell it out for us. What... does.. it.. mean? why do we need to "look at it closely"?
If your answer is that John doubted my reply is then who cares? what it is supposed to mean?
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@ethang5
the answers to his question are all in the text. Again! I hope he has his obtuse glasses on.
I wonder what glasses he's using when he reads this stuff lol. I wouldn't call it rose-colored..
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Let me know if you have any questions when you're ready to ditch the assumptions.
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@Stephen
Of the many questions we have to ask ourselves is
Sure pal.
why did John the Baptist want Jesus to baptize him?
Out of respect and honor?
What sins had John the Baptist committed to have his sins washed away? Or what sins had Jesus committed to have his sins washed away?
Out of respect and honor towards one another? you're trying too hard to scrape up things that just aren't there. It makes you look desperate. Why would they expect others to perform something they had not underwent themselves?
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@BrotherDThomas
Mopac and ethang5 represent the true MO of being a pseudo-christian. When I personally engage these two minions of Satan
Lol wait, is this coming from the same nugget head that claims he has a brothel ministry and uses it to his own perverted advantage??
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That is of course if you are using coping mechanism defined as
" an adaptation to environmental stress that is based on conscious or unconscious choice".... "Any conscious or unconscious mechanism of adjusting to environmental stress without altering personal goals or purposes"....
Perhaps you may want to define for us how you are using the term to clarify the point you are making.
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When I chose the path I have taken the last thing on my mind was any coping mechanism, that's actually hilarious...that has nothing to do with why I'm a Theist. Actually it was mostly the pursuit of truth and the reaction to my own observations and experiences. Spirituality in all actuality has pulled me away from coping mechanisms in my life to face myself just as I am and just as reality is.
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@Singularity
The theory is that religion seems to help people cope
Seeing as how you are going to carry on with your silly idea why don't you answer this question.
Lets say the theory has a legit premise, how does this prove at all that religions are wrong, or that God does not exist?
Religious beliefs may help with anxiety (even though that's not always true at all, and this would be from my own observations of people around me) is it because religious propositions have truth behind them or because they are false lol? why is it you only want to focus on your own presumption that God doesn't exist and or people are afraid of death? maybe because of the fact they could help people cope with issues in life is because it is in fact a reality. In other words it touches on aspects of ourselves that religions understand.
And besides this, why don't you go around actually asking people why they believe what they believe rather than relying on some secular study that doesn't really know the complete base of anything spiritual? wouldn't that be a bit more logical? is it because you're afraid your assumptions about Theists will be proven wrong?
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@Stephen
It's only literal when you want it to be right (hate)? and figurative only when you want it to be right (sheep) lol?
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@Stephen
Yes that was something I said to Mopac and I stick by it. I will also add that I know these scriptures better than you too.
And this is coming from someone who doesn't comprehend the way scriptures use words and phrases?
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@DynamicSquid
So to answer your question about consciousness/awareness, I think that consciousness can only be derived from having a brain, and a brain can only be in a species, like us.
You THINK conscious entities are created by the brain. So you assume a series of impulses and neural firing somehow can create a conscious being so by what mechanism does that creation happen?
The brain is a component, it isolates your experience to a physical body so that your attention is confined to this world. I think the more you consider it the more you will find that the mass of cells that are called the brain creating conscious beings is quite absurd...Here is a post of mine in another thread for you to consider...
" Since you first are a whole conscious entity and not a series of impulses created by the material body your own intuition can infer that what I'm proposing is true and genuine. The only thing that can possibly be an obstacle here is conditioned thinking so you have to be willing to work around that factor, at the same time understand that the nature of consciousness is an open question within the scientific community so many of its postulations are basically conjecture and conclusions based upon an incomplete understanding about the soul and the physical body and how they work together.
But believe it or not you are not a series of impulses and neural firing you are a conscious being that occupies a physical body. You can compare consciousness to energy and or electricity they both exist within form and independent of form, when your physical body ceases to maintain your experience through it your conscious soul exits that form.
The brain is nothing more than a conduit, conductor or component that confines your experience to this body so that you may interact within this world but it does not create your conscious being. So while you can detect "activity" within the brain while you occupy it, it's the same as when you see "activity" within a circuit board while electricity channels through it. Nothing more nothing less.
Your soul needs a good conduit that is alive and active because the conscious soul is energetic and alive and not dead, this is why you have the brain you have and the nervous system you experience but they are just tools that you use to navigate through this life. Because of that factor the catch here is that you believe it's the body that is creating your experience lol, when in fact it's just a vehicle. This is was makes your experience here complete though, because it helps the individual focus on this life and become productive, this is what confines and restricts your awareness and reduces your experience from a much larger reality just as we confine electricity to be utilized and reduced to occupancy within machinery ect ect."
So I don't think energy fields could have a consciousness.
So then I expect you can articulate why then....energy fields operate as intelligence and why it produces intelligent processes? what other inanimate force do you know of that has this magical power or ability? you should be asking yourself serious questions before ever accepting things because you've been conditioned to accept or believe without question.
Also, energy fields in general can be simplified to atomic particles, and sometimes even smaller. Energy in a sense is measurable, and observable (well, not now, but in the future possibly). It's like air. We can't see it, but we can measure it, observe it in some ways, and therefore know what it is.
Congratulations Squid Dynamo you just described the nature of awareness. And since you are in fact first a conscious being and not a blob of brain mass you have first hand experience of that. That in fact is your own observation point.
And the thing about God. I think what you mean is that God isn't intelligent life (like us), but rather just energy with a consciousness.
Consciousness=intelligence. And when we are discussing God we are talking about all the knowledge that exists wrapped up in one ocean of conscious awareness. You can't even imagine how intelligent God is lol, the Creator has been around the block awhile. God is like us but on a gigantic scale. And I don't mean like us as humans per say, I mean God is a conscious Reality like you are a tiny conscious reality.
However, like I said before, energy is measurable, and observable. This means that we can track individual "energy units." This I believe contradicts the theory of God.
That doesn't explain why energy produces processes by itself and why it operates as intelligence within our own universe. Just because it can be "measured" does not contradict anything I've said. Energy is generated by conscious activity, can you explain to me why energy exists using your own explanation? why does energy exist, where does it come from? why does it produce intelligent processes and conscious beings?
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@Singularity
If you didn't fear death, you would be dead and certainly not using religion as a coping mechanism.
Why is it the people that make this idiotic claim aren't aware everyone knows they are going to DIE! no one can get around a physical death that has nothing to do with spirituality and the reality of it.
The Christian life is a challenge as are many spiritual paths (considering you've actually read anything at all in the NT and its calling) not a free ride or some coping mechanism, that's just another one of your presumptuous claims and why it is difficult to carry any intelligent discussion or debate with you at all.
It's a path of selflessness, sacrifice, self examination, servitude, passion for God and facing realty as it really is. It's not always fun, not always what one wants to do and live like, it's certainly not easy being mocked by trolls like you and a few others here because of it.
The more I apply it to myself the more I realize how beautiful it is, it is the pealing away of delusions, carnality, selfish behavior, hardened heart, anger and all the little things your fellow man carries on his shoulder through life.
Perhaps stop being so damn presumptuous and start asking people instead of telling them why they believe and what they believe for. Otherwise you will just remain ignorant and lost in the dark all because you can't help yourself from being impertinent.
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@Stephen
It's obvious...
You say that fat too often
That's the word I use when someone is being a dum dum
without explaining anything at all.
Lol, that's what happens when you CUT out the explanation and ignore it Disguste….I mean Stevie, here it is again.
they can be compatible if you consider you have both an earthly life as well as a heavenly or spiritual life. If you read the entire chapter of Luke this verse is obviously about principle, or priorities even though you want to focus squarely on this one as you usually do.
It's a challenge to the individual to think about where their priorities lay, and are you willing to put God your Maker before all other things. In doing so it's not a literal command to hate your family in light of Jesus' command to love others, it is a challenge to think about your relation to God and who you answer to. As you shift your priorities towards God per say all other things fall in their proper place.
That's my take on it of course, and one I know for a fact you will not accept nevertheless there it is. And now you will begin the process of repeating yourself over and over so at that point one has to wonder why you even ask these things. So what is more likely here, that Jesus blatantly contradicts his own message or is he pointing out an underlying principle? I'm going with the latter. Note that in the beginning of that chapter it says "7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them."....
Also in another passage Jesus says " "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." 33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. 34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."
This is the same basic principle he puts forth.
Now go ahead and bore me to death with ignoring answers and repeating yourself 3...2.....1...go!
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@ethang5
Lol I was hoping you'd be back to keep Stevie on his toes. He bores me too much to bother with em.
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@ludofl3x
Also keep in mind the links are for general information and you may have to do some searches, since I'm already very familiar with it all I can articulate and elaborate on any things you want to know or have a question about. Literally anything.
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@ludofl3x
Most people believe that when they leave this world there are only two places in the after life, for example "heaven and hell". That is actually not so, the created worlds are set up like a multiverse, layers or planes of existence on many levels.
When you leave the physical body you will be present within another universe, the very next layer is what is known as the astral plane (which people describe as heavenly) and there you have a corresponding body known as the subtle body or what people refer to as a spirit body. This is just as large if not much larger than our physical universe. It is stock full of solar systems and of course trillions of planets, an untold number. This is where you will be present when your physical body dies, where your conscious soul translates.
This is where it gets fun, the astral plane is only one of serval other universe or planes. The physical plane which is what we are currently observing is the outermost layer, the lowest and most coarse level of the multiverses, and most limited/restricted as is the material body.
These higher planes exist at a much higher and finer vibrational frequency than the physical universe, and so has far less limitations. Which is why people are amazed during NDE's, the way they are able to move and how they can communicate.
These planes travel all the way up to what are known as the pure conscious worlds, these are the highest levels one can reach. Interestingly the subtle bodies exist far, far longer than the physical body so your experiences there can seem like eons of time. But, it is cool because there is so much to learn and so much to do and experience.
But, to earn a place in the higher realms the soul has to reach maturity through progression. A soul that has yet to mature can cause great harm to these higher places of existence. And this is why I find it important to get you to consider spirituality not just as a belief but a way you can interact with and grow from. There should be a chart in one of the links I provided giving you an idea of how these multiverses are set up.
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@ludofl3x
AS you know, individual experiences that cannot be duplicated or independently verified are not good evidence. I'll move on because there's just no way we're ever going to agree: I need to see things demonstrated in order to accept them as true.
You are included in the process of observation as an individual, but if you have yet to get involved there are others who can teach you things that you currently don't know or have experienced. That's how learning works, we learn from those who know what we don't know, then we gain knowledge, apply it and have experiences.
And your comparison of different realms to earning guitar is facile: I know people who play guitar. I don't know anyone who has learned to travel to another realm or dimension or has been tuned to some information that they know but can't impart in any useful way to anyone else that I'm supposed to accept as real because it makes life easier or something like that. Guitars are demonstrably real. Other levels of consciousness are not, unless you're holding out this info because I "can't handle it." Which sounds like appeal to special knowledge.
Whoa there, I was comparing learning an instrument to the process and cultivation of spirituality, not the knowledge of transcendent realms. I've been studying spirituality for a long time so you have to understand much of what I know covers a wide range of literature and sources. Here are a few links you can check out for yourself and sift through in regards to how religious sources experience these higher places in creation...however I'm going to guess you won't take anything seriously.
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@DynamicSquid
Science doesn't support that belief
Science doesn't answer questions about God remember? this would be outside the realm of what science can reach. So when we are discussing the Creator and the nature of God we are leaving science out of the discussion.
If you want to learn anything new in regards to God, the soul or how creation is put together we move over to spirituality and the knowledge that correlates with the nature of God.
So it's not that science doesn't support it, it simply doesn't know it.
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@DynamicSquid
I think I know what you're saying, but that's where I disagree. I think Science doesn't support that belief of consciousness.
Consciousness is an open question in science so anything they put forth is basically conjecture. Their conception of awareness will always be incomplete because they look at it azz backwards. Inanimate material does not create consciousness, consciousness exists as it is just like energy and it is this foundation of intelligence that creates form through energy, not the other way around.
If you were to add awareness to energy you wouldn't be that far off from what you currently believe, only you would have a model that makes more sense. Have you ever asked yourself why energy exists at all? what is it? why is it there? how does it produce form and intelligence?
Don't you think it is strange that any inanimate force could produce processes and sentient beings? I mean you think this is possible so why is it so hard to consider that consciousness exists like energy exists?
No being can be like that.
Awareness is exactly like that and that is the nature of God, omnipresent. Omnipresent means there is nowhere something exists where God is not aware or present….Consciousness does not need a vehicle to exist, it needs form to have experiences though outside of itself.
I understand it's not what you're used to accepting but awareness is the foundation behind all things...energy exists because conscious activity exists, conscious activity generates energy and so they co-exist. This is why energy operates as an intelligent force within the universe, why it produces what it does.
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@ludofl3x
It sounds all woo woo and pseudo deep but it's just campfire college kid stoner stuff man. What can anyone do with this?
It was an explanation to why we are sharing such information and how it concerns you. I read it, it seems like a useful bit of knowledge to show why you should pursue it.
When you say it sounds like woo woo, that just means to me that you're used to a certain level of thinking.
"No one has ever demonstrated any life or plane or realm or whatever dimension except the one we currently live in. The only reasonable conclusion to draw is that everyone who's ever died is still dead, that's the fate that awaits us all, we march toward it inexorably with varying levels of bravura, and when it arrives, that's it."
And as I said, it's been demonstrated through sources of knowledge. But from individual experiences. Argument dealt with. Perhaps move forward?
Please deomnstarte any other proposition wherein this is true.
Any time you learn something it is a process is it not? if I were to get you playing the guitar I wouldn't have you burning scales like Zakk Wylde because that would be stupid, and you would be unable to handle that. I'd start you off at baby steps.
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@ludofl3x
Give me the instructions.
I'm getting there, it's not something that can be digested all at once. Spirituality is a cultivation and it's that way for a reason. Some things you can handle now and other things you cannot.
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@ludofl3x
So in other words you're not open to other forms of knowledge and experience. That I already knew. The point of course is to get you connected to it. So where is the room to learn and grow?
None of that remotely disputes what I said.
You mean you produced an argument? where?
Look, I enjoy smoking weed too, but I don't feel like I'm tuning into other frequencies and other realms and dimensions. You might need to give me your guy's number if that's what you're getting!
Weed is a very limited approach to getting out of yourself. Spirituality is the real high.
Seriously, the short answer is "no, I can't demonstrate it". That's not compelling. "It exists": how can I know that? And don't write a poem about it. Give me the instructions.
Lol, perhaps read my answer again, did it not make sense? does it not explain something of value for you in any way?
You mention all sorts of religions. Do you think they're all correct?
Many of them have legit knowledge and insights about the reality of the created worlds, that is what they do and what they study.
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@ludofl3x
I know you mean well, but that's just a bunch of gibberish to me.
How can a very straight forward post be gibberish to you? do you speak another language? I mean I know you're a hard core Atheist but come on...
No one has ever demonstrated any life or plane or realm or whatever dimension except the one we currently live in.
That may be true as you view it from a collective and material point of view but certainly not from an individual spiritual observation. Many souls both in religious squares and just average people have observed planes beyond this one. If you want to examine this type of knowledge you have to look into various religious sources and propositions. Such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American spirituality, Eckankar, bits of Christianity, soul travel and of course NDE's. These planes of existence have been observed for so long they are mapped out.
The only reasonable conclusion to draw is that everyone who's ever died is still dead, that's the fate that awaits us all, we march toward it inexorably with varying levels of bravura, and when it arrives, that's it. How that somehow robs life of meaning, rather than imbues it with meaning given that I'm the only one who'll ever get to live the life I live, or devalues morality somehow, is really just confusing.
Wait a minute, there is a point to living in this universe on this planet, I'm just saying it doesn't end here. I'm not robbing your meaning of life in this world at all, I'm giving you meaning beyond this one experience....because it exists.
Can you demonstrate ANY level of 'higher consciousness' in the context you're using?
It's hard to demonstrate that sort of experience since there is no real material base that I can somehow show you. It's more like levels of frequencies like tuning into different radio channels. As you become open to spirituality you are essentially adjusting your normal conscious frequencies to higher ones or ones of another station. Lol I know that sounds weird but I'm doing my best to make sense of it for you.
Your physical brain actually confines your conscious activity and restricts it, reduces it down so your attention is trapped within this body and world. Spirituality helps you transcend those barriers through practice and opening yourself up to higher frequencies.
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@DynamicSquid
Well, what exactly do you define as a God or Creator?
God IS a Creator...The term Creator says a lot but God can be considered "the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality (Ultimate Observer) in the universe. God is the immaterial, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists....the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. As a metaphysical concept God is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe."
To make things more simplistic or easier to conceptualize, imagine your own conscious being but on a massive scale. Imagine if you had no bodily form but your awareness still existed, almost like as if you were just a mind or a pure conscious entity. Imagine that awareness to be comparable to energy as we know it in the universe. How it is omnipresent, without being created or destroyed....eternally existing.
Now imagine that everything that exists...exists within this formless mind or consciousness and that the Creator manipulates energy to create form that it may have endless experiences through all different channels of conscious activity.
Let me know if you can get your head around that or if it makes any sense to you, if not I can elaborate more on it.
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@ludofl3x
What exactly do you think my life is like without "making sense" of how the universe started? Do you imagine I can't figure ANYTHING out, like I leave my shower running all the time, I've used a clothes iron as a telephone? There is zero impact at all on my life outside of one simple question: do you believe in gods. The answer is no. Everything else I seem to have found my way.
Lol pretty funny but if I may interject again. The point of trying to get you to consider the processes in creation originate with God is just the first step in bringing you closer into a connection with the spiritual aspect of yourself as opposed to where you currently are. This is the self that transcends the physical body and its perceptions. You have both an earthly life and experience and on the other side of the coin you have the spiritual aspect of life and its experience. All in all (IMO), this doesn't really have much to do with beliefs per say as it has more to do with your progress and experience of that which transcends the physical sense perception, your spiritual connection.
Now I know you believe most of what I say is stupid but I'm just trying to help you connect the dots and understand what the hell all this is about. So while it seems pointless to you whether or not you accept creation or that there is a Creator when you leave this world you may understand a bit more why we want to help open your eyes a bit. Because why be blind-sided to a reality you could start connecting with now while you live out this life, that you may have some coherence and knowledge of where you are going and what you really are. It would be like going on a long journey only you have no map, you have no idea which direction you're going, you have no idea who may be there or what its like ect ect…
Don't get me wrong, I love a good road trip to nowhere and a good surprise lol, but not something of this magnitude. I'd rather get involved now and have a general understanding and knowledge, a connection and a plan. Most people don't realize that spirituality is how you interface with this reality, there is an actual progression and experience. This experience of course takes place on a higher conscious level because this reality goes beyond the physical body and its normal perceptions, you want to cultivate this part of yourself before you leave this world.
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@3RU7AL
Ironically it's possible the term Ultimate Reality and its meaning are taken from the Hindu religion, and we all know their scriptures are among the oldest recorded if not the oldest.
"In Hinduism, Brahman connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe"
"The concept is found in various layers of the Vedic literature"
And, since they are the premier articulators of the nature of consciousness that could be why Mopac doesn't understand that God is the Ultimate Observer, it is the very conscious Reality of God that is the backdrop and foundation of all reality and existence. All things come out of that first Reality.
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@drafterman
It's one thing to acknowledge the process, but another thing to either ignore or explain why they occur, both prospects should be of interest intellectually speaking. If you feel it is unnecessary to explain how processes occur all by themselves from inanimate forces that is your personal feelings on the matter. I'm not satisfied with such an assumption. So your feelings on this matter are subjective.
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@drafterman
That is of course if you accept that processes occur by themselves and can't answer why. Unnecessary is subjective.
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@TheRealNihilist
Let me know where you want to begin, I'll be here waiting.
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@TheRealNihilist
Sure, play little games without addressing me personally while I clown you. Big intelligent man you are. A boy perhaps?
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@Singularity
I have experienced a spiritual entity as well. It was Santa Clause.
Very mature, and we see who is really here on good faith.
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@Singularity
We have tests where people experiencing NDE's had opportunities to prove it by identifying hidden objects in the room only visible from an elevated position when they thought the were having an OBE, but fail to do so 100% of the time.
You are making the assumption that NDE's are a controlled experience when in fact they are not. Often times it's completely uncontrolled, the recipient is mesmerized by what is taking place they have no real conscious control over the situation because they are placed within an environment they thought was never possible. Shock, surprise, traumatism, confusion, hysteria or excitement are not experiences you want to play hidden objects with.
Actually that is what makes them even more convincing, the fact they are not controlled but average people not trying to sell any religious ideas or propaganda. They are just caught up in the moment.
It would be like me throwing you in a great white shark tank asking you to focus on how many fingers I'm holding up as I dip my hand in the tank lol. So I fail to see how this "hidden object" experiment disproves anything at all, it is quite dumb and not really worth addressing. But considering you are actually serious maybe take what I'm saying in this post serious.
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@Singularity
and at another time I thought I saw Bigfoot,
Lol, who am I to say you and thousands of others did not see something you believed to be Bigfoot? I can't testify to that because I never have witnessed that, but I sure have witnessed spiritual entities.
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