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The irony of everyone here posting to their own will supporting the most ridiculous notion that they have no will is hilarious. The stupidity is astounding, and the obliviousness to the reality that their conscious soul exists independent of their physical body is even more amusing. They have no recollection that what their body needs and what their will decides are two distinct factors, though one influences the other the one is only observing what the other is asking for. The will remains intact regardless of what conditions arise. Oh well, I shouldn't expect too much from a silly public forum. Oh! did I just write this? shame on me....oh wait, there is no shame it was already preordained! lol.
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@Lunar108
if you ask me ,who the devil opposing god is , I would answer organized religion ,
In some ways it could be, depends upon the religion I guess. But that seems more like an oxymoron in general. There are also many societies that extend beyond this world, some good and some not so good. These cultures are extensions of our cultures....There are many Kingdoms and planes of existence and they all fit within God's vast creation.
they make assumptions about god , they talk about the creation of the world ,
Well, religions are based upon some individual at some point if you trace it back far enough and that individual has probably had some type of observations and experiences about God or God's creation. Then those foundational beliefs were expanded upon and became a cultural phenomenon. You may label their observations assumptions but that doesn't mean they are. Your opinions are as much an assumption that you claim their spiritual observations are.
Besides that, I'm an Omnist in regards to religions around the world and there are a lot of good insights that they offer. Not everyone is out to get ya, not everyone wants to con you into something. Are they all right or all wrong? is one right and the rest wrong? none of those questions are true. They each possess some things that are true and some things that are not. All in all, if you learn from them as a whole you gain a lot of good knowledge. Take what you want from them, discard what you think is bunk. Life can be simple, so can spirituality.
I would say though, that most likely some religions are possibly more advanced than others. Not every Theist has the same level of knowledge and experience.
they claim to know the answer to everything
Do they? can you provide some type of passage from each religious source that makes that claim?
their holy books are tiny and very small .
They only need to offer their culture something to build upon, whether that be a big book or a small book.
what better way to worship god then :1. studying the world since it's literary god's creation2.striving to be a good person (kindness)you can have both without joining a religion
This is all true, perhaps you don't have any idea why religious information exists. Some of the work has been done for you, if there's nothing within them that you resonate with so be it. But the objective of spirituality is not to study God's world or be a kind person, one is an interest the other a moral accomplishment. The objective behind spirituality is to cultivate that aspect of yourself and to have some connection to the Divine you were previously unaware of. Religions can offer many things, perhaps they are things you personally don't care for. Perhaps you never really put any effort into studying them and applying yourself.
as a matter of facts religions are just factions used to make people look down on each other and feel self-righteous for doing something bad
There are many good teachers from a host of various religious sources. Not one have I heard of or followed has made any of those claims or gestures. Are there ignorant, self-centered jerk off religious people that may spread misconceptions and segregation? I'm sure there are, perhaps you should just check out o few Buddhist teachers, a few Hindu sages, a few Christian pastors, a few and a little bit of everything and see what they teach and if you agree with it.
I have a handful of teachers I follow and I'm picky as hell about who I trust or listen to. Only a very select few with the right character and attributes will do for me.
Are there religions that I don't care much for, yes there are. They are the ones that perpetuate violence and discrimination within their actual texts. However, if that be the case, I simply avoid such religious literature.
let me give you an example :-oh yea we killed those people , it's totally ok since they are ,,,,,,, apostates /blasphemers/heretics/infidels-look at those people I can't believe that they are worshiping ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, are they idiots , if they had brains they wouldn't have worshiped ,,,,,,,,,,,you can fill it with whatever god you don't believe in ,it's funny how each religion can see what wrong with the other religions but can't see what's wrong with their own religion
Cultures have used religions to perpetuate crimes and many horrible things. Are these the works of ignorant, stupid people? the answer is yes, but they will do the same things with or without religions. And they have.
Another thing I tried to explain to you before, but I doubt you considered it. And that's the reality that a person's religion is also their culture, there's patriotism involved. Meaning they feel pride about their personal culture and religious creeds.
let me finish this with this last question for you to wonder about ,I have yet to learn how does doing weird rituals benefits god ?
Can you define weird rituals? or perhaps give examples? I'm going to say they don't benefit God. I would say that rituals or spiritual practices offer people some type of connection to something they feel is valid or helpful in advancing their spiritual journey.
some copy the benefits of meditation and claim praying to god help since it's a form of meditation but then just meditate no need to involve god
Well you miss the point yet again. Meditation is used as a means to transcend your conscious self (soul) outside the domains of the material world to connect to higher realms of experience. That could only be possible if God exists, as there would be no transcendent experiences lol. I hope this post helps you with a different perspective on your issues with religions.
The funny part is, I'm one of the few spiritual people that does not have any real interest in proselytizing any particular religious sources. But I find there are a lot of useful aspects of various religious sources. I have learned a lot of things from studying them.
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The harassers of the forum are those who always leave snarky comments with zero content or rebuttal. But why would they offer content? it's not about rational discussion/debate but about their weirdo obsessions.
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@Double_R
Now you may wonder about these passages and what they have to offer the recipient, the point behind teachings regardless of the source is to provide the student something in contrast to how they normally do, think or believe to experience something in contrast to their personal reality. It may seem vague to you at first glance, but that is due to the fact that principles are dynamic, they can be applied in many ways and in many various circumstances or scenarios rather than just one. In return, applicable practices should result in a change in one's reality and potential. If there is a reality we would not normally have immediate access to, there should be a means to interface with that reality in one level or another considering it could exist.
You will notice that for different cultures, religions and scriptures the plots, settings, practices, teachers and teachings have significant variations, but the overall objective is the same. The underlying objective to spirituality is to awaken in the student something they were previously unaware of or something they were lacking that they may obtain. It is a progression, and if a source has something useful it should also be something that is applicable to reality and something the recipient can objectively apply to their selves and to life.
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@Double_R
You haven’t provided a method.
Obviously, I'm not a fundamentalist Christian (so this is not really relevant to your point about the Bible), but there are methods of deciding what is useful or true about what religious texts offer in general. The common misconception is that a cultures religious text must all be either true or false and if something appears to be nonsensical or bizarre then the whole thing must be discarded.
Since I'm not a fundamentalist I don't have those fears or limitations to which information I can use or accept. But one thing is good to understand about religious or spiritual literature, that there are features that can be systematically categorized.
When contemplating scriptures in general, whether that be the Bible, the Upanishads, the Sutras, Tripitaka or whatever the case may be there are distinct features and those are literal history, places, events and things. Then there are stories, analogies, metaphors, figurative speech, symbolism and tales. Then we have teachings, and teachings can come in all forms of literature through anyone of the former I mentioned. Then we have what I call applicable principles or practices, these are practical teachings that can be applied to the self which could result in observation.
Typically, some of these features are either useful or simply can be discarded as irrelevant. I don't have any expectations of scriptures that require perfection, to me that is quite absurd so TBH, I tend to use more commonsense rather than being pressured to accept that everything must be true or that if I don't accept everything as true, I must be a heretic or a heathen.
As well, I have no pressure of being swayed by dogma or religious indoctrination so generally speaking, I am free to simply evaluate the contents and make sense of them by taking what is useful and laying aside that which is not.
Basically, by breaking down scripture into categories we can decide what "MUST" be true and what emphasis we put on accuracy in comparing content with reality. Being careful not to define reality where we limit it to our own biases. To be intellectual honest and open minded we must leave room for variations in our interpretations of what reality is and is not, what exists and what does not.
I don't put much emphasis on story telling as being useful, perfect or true, to me they are typically either difficult to judge as being true are obviously simply a tale. To me they are useless in terms of judging what demands of perfection I put on them. In other words, there is really no way for me to know the intent of the authors and whether or not they are trying to pass off falsity as being something true. What I would look for in stories and tales would be any underlying message, principle or metaphors in relation to our experience of life which should typically be pretty obvious. Other than that, I don't care much for stories unless they contain significant meaning.
Literal history should be straight forward, we should be able to match descriptions of literal places, events, people and things with various external sources. Not such a big deal there. I mean, it may not always be black and white but to me it's not something one needs to place much emphasis on perfection in terms of its usefulness.
Now, when we get into teachings and application this is where I start to really pay attention to details and importance because it reflects the heart and core of what it is the source is attempting to offer the recipient. This is also where you need to be the most open-minded about reality because teaching requires a student willing to learn something.
Understanding thoroughly that these features of literal history, stories, teachings and applicable practices will be intertwined throughout the entire piece of literature, this is very common especially in ancient spiritual texts. If one is not aware of this, they quite frankly should be. The Bible, as an example, is notorious for weaving in and out of literary styles and so commonsense goes a long way here. Again, not putting much emphasis on perfection and being free to use that which seems useful.
I can give examples of each feature of course, and since most people here are fixated on the Bible, I'll give a couple examples of each category I mentioned.
Literal history is again, very straight forward we know in the Bible that there are accounts of literal people, places and things as much as we can verify them. If we can't verify them oh well, it's not something we will use to determine whether or not the Bible contains truth.
A story would be as follows....not assuming whether the story is literal or figurative there's not much we can do about that unless we have some documentation confirming whether or not it is literal. For the purposes of this post, it really doesn't matter because a story is a story, there's either something of value within it or there isn't. It's not really the setting or role we are putting emphasis on it is the message behind it.
We can take the story of Noah's flood for example, the story of Job, the story of Samson and Dililah, the story of Moses or Abraham, the story of Jonah ect ect..these are accounts we have no real way to verify so we simply take them as stories. There is no real reason to put any more relevance on them because they are no teachings or applicable practices, they are simply tales that may or may not have significant meaning and again, if they do it should be obvious. Arguing on whether or not they literally happened is IMO silly. It would not be a reflection on whether or not the Bible has something to offer us.
Now let's get into teachings as an example, this is where we want to begin to put more emphasis on the contents and whether or not there is any truth involved or could be involved. A few examples of teachings would be like these passages as an illustration keeping in mind these are just random quotes, but they should reveal some contrast between what we know or do and may not know or do....
Matthew 5
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Colossians 3
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God:
James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Here are a few examples of application/principles that can be applied to the self...these are things that are applicable that should reveal something we don't have that we could have....
Matthew 6
33But seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Matthew 7
7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Matthew 10
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
John 14
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 6
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (Figuratively spoken of course).
John 4
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
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@Benjamin
As does every other phenomena we observe. Even light, which doesn't experience time at all, moves at a set speed linking its position to continous time.
You still don't get it, now we have to take baby steps to deal with your stubbornness and lack of commonsense. Our world is based upon equations, formulas, processes, materials and calculations. They can be broken apart, reconstructed and constructed through a systematic and predictable system of procedure. Just so we're clear, our world means the setting we exist in, our universe and all such processes that make it possible.
Now we have an entirely separate feature, and our will I will discuss below.
Humans are not the only living beings with neurological consciousness and the ability to think and plan, though our intelligence far superceed that of animals. If humans have "free will" by your argument, then do animals have it? What about bacteria, viruses, molecules? Linking free will to unpredictability and yet applying it only to humans is a special pleading --- which unfortunately is a logical fallacy.
Before you make assumptions make sure you ask me so we can avoid me having to answer for strawmen. Conscious life applies to every single thing that has awareness.....now make sure you pay close attention to what I write below.
Conscious life has no equations, no formulas or predictability of outcome. When I say in real time and in the present moment what I mean is that every moment is the only moment in which it can actually occur to be known. Unlike our world, while existing in real time, which can be systematically understood, known and calculated.... consciousness is not a calculation or a system of procedures.
It can't be known because there is no methodology to break it down and examine what will take place, there are no materials or processes that show what will take place in any given scenario. Just like with any recipe that contains ingredients, materials and a methodical process that establishes a known product our world is under that same method of known and predictable outcomes. Consciousness has no recipe or method of mechanical outcomes of what will occur in an infinite amount of possibilities and circumstances that arise from a purely spontaneous affair.
A recipe doesn't have an infinite or unknown amount of possibilities, it is understood which ingredients are needed and by which process those ingredients must be properly combined. It contains everything that can be predicted and known as to what it will produce. Even if there are slight variations the outcome is that which the recipe has "predestined".
Our will is not based upon any possible foreknowledge, they are an unknown feature because they simply don't exist until they are chosen in present time. This doesn't limit God's attributes, only things that can be known can be known. God knows everything that can be known of anything that exists that can be known. That still qualifies as omniscience since God knows all things that can be known, and since you are the one fixated on that silly qualification there is no contradiction.
Now I'm not just talking about a single feature of consciousness or one roadmap of life, we're talking about every creature, animal, human, insect, microbe and every single form of life that exists. Now add an infinite amount of possible outcomes to billions of life forms on all levels. As I pointed out before, you would have to accept that God predestined every time each life form makes a single choice, there's no way you want to make such an absurd leap in logic right? tell me you know that is insane? remember that predestination applies to the exact millisecond every single phenomenon and movement takes place, which means there are no random occurrences or alterations of actions taking place, like slamming your finger in the door when you leave your house which causes a delay in your departure which drastically changes every other event and timing that you decide thereafter.
The question becomes, are you willing to concede any part of your assumptions or should just let you wallow in such a ridiculous assertion?
Scientists have known for quite a while that human choices are facilitated by biological processes controlled by external physical laws. The idea of free will as "the ability to have chosen otherwise" might fall solely on this fact: that we could not have acted differently without breaking the laws of physics. Yet free will is still a common idea.
And sometimes scientists can be as ignorant as the next dummy. Even though there MAY be external factors that sway (not control) our own will it is not a given in an unknown amount of possible choices. Say for example it's cold outside so that may play a role in what you decide to wear, but it doesn't decide which sweater or jacket you pick or the exact moment you put it on. You have biological needs so you may desire sex, food, drink and all the things that help you survive and stay alive but that has not control over your own will other than you coming to the realization that you need something. External factors could be an indication that something needs attention, but it does not dictate when where or what you decide to do. Again, this should all be very easy for your rational mind to understand, and certainly simple in regards to commonsense. We have our own will nomatter what is thrown at us and that will always make your will unique and extemporaneous.
Our world is very much predictable, we can accurately predict future events in terms of mathematical models.
Hopefully I made my point clear above. Our world is our setting, we agree on this point alone. Our will is not a mathematical model, it contains no blueprint.
If you can't predict a persons actions perfecty because interactions between braincells are random, then you also can't predict turbulence or other chaotic phenomena.
This is all true, but again make sure we are using the same choice of words here. When we talk about God's foreknowledge and your assumptions about omniscience we are talking about predestination for every single seemingly random event or choice. That's your absurd claim not mine.
The universe is predictable unless invoking randomness not from complexity but from "magic"Predestination is most likely true, history is not random, there is only one future.
Now let me clear up my premises, there are two distinct realities at play. You have our world which is based upon materials, processes and a calculated model. It is known what it will produce and the outcomes thereof.
Then we have conscious life (our will) which is completely spontaneous and without materials, processes, models or preexisting knowledge. There are no known results or outcomes other than speculation, intuition, guesses, hunches, conjecture ect ect. Predestination cannot be applied to will.
Now let me be clear again, certainly God can shape and funnel the directions of human affairs, our history and the future (if so desired). But it is manipulated in real time, it is not predestined. God can control those external factors we discussed if indeed needed to influence life in a larger, broader sense...but that has no relevance to our own will being completely unique.
If God can control our SETTING (not our will), then certainly God could know the start and the finish of our world just by having complete ability to manipulate our environment. Again, our will is distinct from what God does or knows about what will happen to our world. And obviously since we exist within the world, we are subject to whatever occurs, but this still does not control our will, only our environment.
In this thread I critique the abrahamic Idea that an omniscient creator exist simultaniously with free will --- that is quite clearly a contradiction.
Not at all. It doesn't matter whether we go with the Abrahamic idea of will or simply the general concept of a God, the idea of our own will will always be compatible because it applies across the board because will cannot be predestined. We are uniquely free to decide whatever we want in a world set up for us to make our own choices.
A non-omniscient God as you described is compatible with free will; because it faces the same problem we humans have, being unable to know perfectly the result of one's possible actions.
Only things that can be known can be known. Our will is not a knowable event so there is no contradiction with my premise and God's attributes. Hopefully this post will begin to satisfy the confusion about will vs God's attributes. Even still, I'm not pressed to label God omniscient, but given that conscious life is unknowable it is irrelevant to God's knowledge.
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@Benjamin
Your argument is that our world is too complex for God to have precise foreknowledge about it. Essentially you are saying that God isn't smart enough to predict the future, he has to observe events to know their outcome.
No, what I'm saying is that conscious life is a spontaneous event, it runs in real time, present time. God's attributes are irrelevant. I didn't say our world is too complex, I said the nature of the will, and all things involved is far too dynamic to predict. Not because God is stupid, but because it happens in the present moment. Basically, it is NOT predictable.
The fine-turning argument shows that a creator would necesarily be intelligent enough to produce a desired outcome by tinkering with the starting conditions. If God created a universe suitable for life on the first try then he definately decided how history should look like.
Read my post again.
Even if God has some influence upon how the world will move forward, it has no relation to any predestination. It is all in real time. Did you catch the "pet" analogy? God can create a setting where will is still a unique feature.
Humans can sometimes predict the actions of others given different situations; and the scientific field of biology is begining to understand our behavior. Humans being too unpredictable for an omniscient omnipotent God is a preposterous claim.
Yes, God can predict what you MIGHT choose, but what you choose was not pre-decided, understand? God can only predict what you might choose, as that moment arises, before that, that moment never existed, was never known. This is simple stuff here. The nature of conscious life is a spontaneous event.
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@Outplayz
@RationalMadman
Your mind is in the right place but i would say this contradicts Abrahamic religions more than "theism" in general. If a human makes a movie, that movie plays out as what it is... fantasy, drama, horror, whatever. If all if this is hard determinism happening in the mind of a god... than that's what it is, an ultimate movie.
We both would agree that this simulation can be comparable to a movie with actors and an ultimate Producer. This is where I tend to narrow my responses down to what the average person is capable of receiving. But I know you will catch this...There's still an element of surprise involved in the Platform creating characters and a setting. You see, with this element of surprise, this is what the Source has invested in all this. Remember how we discussed we become mini-creators in our world even within a staged setting that the Platform set?
This is where it gets very interesting, the Source can't predetermine actions (becomes of the dynamics involved as I pointed out in my first post), It can only predetermine casts and a setting but within the setting the character begins to take on its own persona and decisions through its individual perceptions of its own experiences within each setting....hence becoming a mini-creator within the Creator.
Since we are all channels that the Platform has access to through our individual states of consciousness, the Source gets unique observations through each one of us because we begin to play the role with a fresh plot/choices.
Nobody seems to understand this, they just assume that the Creator HAS to know everything but there is no way to predetermine consciousness because it becomes a spontaneous event, it's not like creating a setting, a character's will cannot be planned because it is random. Now, you might play the role a TYPE of character, but the way in which that character plays out its role is completely unique.
This is what makes creation and a simulation much more interesting for the Source to even think about setting up, otherwise the Source would simply dream. This is greater than a dream though, it's actual characters taking on their own personas all throughout creation! this is also why Karma exists, because as we take on our own personas and our own will we have to become accountable for what we decide within the movie. The movie is only one part of the objective, the other part is for us to learn about ourselves through the characters we play, it is genius.
I'm sure you have heard of the ego, and how religions get into this concept that the ego has to die. That's because the ego is the only thing distinct from the Platform. Once you discard the individual self, you are one with the Platform once again....this is why the Platform covered our souls within the subtle layers of ego and mind, because that is what makes your character unique from the Platform.
We are never separated from the Source, because everything exists within the Source, but the ego ensures that what you do within the Source is fresh and unknown.
Therefore, we don't know if their is free will, other than free will in a god that is everything and that everything playing out like a movie.
We have our own will because as I said above, consciousness cannot be predetermined, it is a live event, in present time. Consciousness can be split into many countless individual states of consciousness much like channels and frequencies of radio waves, but there is no knowledge or mechanism that can control the outcomes of conscious life, it's far to dynamic and there are too many variables involved in will.
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@RationalMadman
You have a good eye, I appreciate the fact you see harassment and obnoxious behavior for what it is. There is indeed harassment and abuse taking place in the religion forum that may or may not apply to the COC. It takes someone with keen observation and an emotional component to peg it and acknowledge that it is having a long-term effect on what could be a creative and intelligent environment instead of a rigid, limited and immature setting.
It is what it is, there doesn't seem to be a seriousness or a devoted presence to make sure that religious and spiritual topics are treated with respect and concern.
Whatever, I think people get off on the freedom they have to ridicule and mock such topics and vent their frustrations on the public where they aren't really held accountable. Ironically, it always becomes the main attraction to any platform...I dedicated my time to this particular forum to try and build something fresh and new after DDO became a disaster but I'm a dreamer lol, I have high hopes but, in a world where hopes are crushed there really is no potential to make it something special, not with the idiots that we have that make it a joke day in and day out.
The main users are the main problems, they aren't there to create anything useful rather their time is relentlessly dedicated to making that part of the forum a joke, because their opinions about spirituality are a joke. I like a challenge, I like opposition, I like debate and the comparison of opposing views. What I hate is the weird, obsessed freaks that constantly plague every thread with their monotonous BS. Then they get a little dead beat fan club that likes all their posts, and it is the same few trolls that get off on limiting anything useful or serious. All the topics seem to go in the same fcking direction.
Anyways, Wylted has his faults and obvious character flaws, but he seems pretty dedicated, and he has less emotion invested in his decisions. I don't have any real reason to support any one of you other than I feel there could be improvements. Wylted seems content with the direction of what takes place there. You seem to have a deeper vision, but the question would be what kind of vision and what do you have to offer a dead-beat obnoxious forum and what do you think could be improved?
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@Benjamin
This generic topic gets confused by the fact that man's choices and actions are distinct from the knowledge of God vs this made up term that forces you to believe something that is not possible. There are no "decisions" God makes or predetermined knowledge God has in relation to what you decide to do, period the end. It's plain stupid theology and it should be as clear as day. People get hung up on this idea that God "has" to be omniscient, sorry but God does not have to be anything you assume, and yet God is still God, even if the term omniscience has no solid relevance to the attributes of the Creator.
The dynamics of creatures own will is far too complex and spontaneous to be anything of a predetermined condition, unless you want to prove that every time a rabbit shits or chooses to eat a blade of grass God has already established that it would lol? did God plan out every time you would have to tie your shoe or choose which food you want to eat? this is exactly the kind of BS you have to accept if you really believe that man's actions were decided or predetermined.
It's not that complicated, God creates a world and an environment where creatures are free to go about choosing and reacting to their circumstances, desires and needs and those factors aren't controlled they are a unique and spontaneous event.
There are no middle grounds here, if you take the assumption that everything is already known or decided then you have to believe God is something other than what is even possible, that an absurdity is somehow rational. If God "decided" every time you would have to sneeze then God also decided every time a draft of wind would occur, decided and knew every time a piece of dust would land on your forehead.
That is ridiculous, there is no system or perfect knowledge that could ever predetermine such random occurrences within a world so vast and unpredictable. There are however, many things God should and would know just creating an entire universe. And those are things we could rationally discuss and easily make sense of. But mans will is as unpredictable as the wind blowing in any one direction, even if there are factors involved that would sway his decisions.
I like to compare your little reality that God enjoys observing to that of any pet you ever owned. You can create an environment and a home so precise and fitting for that little pet, and despite the reality that you provide food, monitor and create the very setting it lives under....you enjoy the reality that everything that pet does is completely fresh, unique and spontaneous, even though you created its very environment, and that pet sees you as its master.
Imagine if you somehow knew and planned everything it would choose and decide, every time it would get hungry, every time it would move or need care before you brought it into your reality. What kind of creation would that be? what kind of reason would you even have to want to experience such insanity? that would ruin the very purpose of the special nature of will vs God's knowledge. God is a Creator of life, not a Puppet Master. Life is as spontaneous a thing as anything you could possibly imagine because of the dynamics that are involved in any single choice, reaction or event that pertains to any circumstance and the infinite possibilities that could result in any scenario.
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@Lunar108
IF you are going to target them for agreeing with me why not discuss this with me
I've given you the opportunity to discuss anything you want, anytime you want. My beliefs are not hinged upon any virgin birth, so it has no relevance to me.
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@ludofl3x
I really love this post.
I'm sure you do.
It says literally nothing of any use to anyone
What do you want.....Ludo? do you want me to feed you some religious dogma? would you like some more religious doctrines thrown at you that you find ridiculous? you seem fixated on the stupidity of the Bible yet there is much more about God and the soul to consider and I tapped into that in this post. I was giving the guy empowerment without subjecting him to any perceived religious authority. Why? because that is what each of you possess. I would think you would like that, but apparently, you're unable to be pleased regardless where there is any freedom and individuality present.
I'd be happy to break down the post for you, I doubt you have any real interest. There is use in that post, and I had more coming if the poster had any interest.
but with a confidence that makes it comical. Well done. I'm going to try it.
Lol, your post was a fail, you probably shouldn't have tried at all. My post contains substance because it is not an artificial pile of crap but steeped in reality and experience.
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@Bones
I only reply when I feel like it is worth my time. If you really believe that your points are so good that they push me into a position where I am stumped, then let’s debate. I see that you frequently type long responses, so time is obviously not an issue.
Look, I don't want to hurt your feelings I think you're a cool dude. Your debates are garbage, have you even read over them? you could learn more here in the forums if you stop trying to prove yourself right. You keep threatening people with debates but it's silly, I'm right here, if you want to show me something all you have to do is reply to me. Pull your head out of your azz and analyze what I'm writing to you.
I rarely post anything without there being significance, but you have to drop the "I don't want to believe in God" act and get real about wanting to know what is true and what is not. I'm not here to feed you dogma, man I just want you to consider the truth about reality. I'll give you everything you need to fulfill your intellectual curiosities.... I'll show you there is an answer to all your dilemmas but if you resist by assuming you can debate everything you will remain in the dark because of your own ignorance and stubbornness. You can't beat me, and I'm not looking to beat you. I'll show you that in every challenge you present....the question is...is what do you really want?
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@Bones
I'm not a computer. I do not have the capacity to sift though every claim that has ever been made
You do have the capacity to sift through posts you've read. You're telling me that this was one of the only points that left you impressed? you're easily amused.
Well it's not up to me to impress me, that's the person I'm debating's job. I will admit, I have been impressed with points made from my oppositions - a notable case was Benjamin's rebuttal to my personhood argument.
I will note the caliber of responses you're impressed by. Maybe there's not much point in discussing anything with you in the future, seems like you're more interested in thinking you're right rather than finding truth. If I make a good point you ignore it, if I make a point you feel like you can offer a rebuttal to you reply. That seems to be the nature of our exchanges. I waste my time while you narrow down my arguments to fulfill your agenda.
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@Bones
This is actually a surprisingly good point.
So are many things that you never point out are good points. I make good points more than you can count. When you point out a good point that doesn't align with your own bias, then we will know to be impressed.
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@Lunar108
let me say this clearly , as I have mentioned in the post before :feelings and personal experiences tend to be unreliable for making such a decision .
Your personal experiences will be the only thing you ever have. Get real. If you can't rely on what you experience, what good are you alive?
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@Lunar108
You'll find that in ancient culture and civilizations this was a common trait, it is not unique to any religious group. If you don't think Kings, tribal leaders and authoritative figures went about choosing any young virgins of whatever age they wanted you are very naive. You might as well pick on the whole history of the human race, disgusting as it is. Unfortunately, sexual deviates have preyed upon the innocent for a very long time. In case you have not noticed, people in powerful positions get what they want, that is nothing new even to this day. Your mind probably couldn't handle what happens behind closed doors, you've probably never experienced evil in its full form. Your topic makes true evil look like child's play. Ignorant as you are, then you run around crying about why hells would exist.
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@Lunar108
which god should you follow ? how do you decide ?
First you decide if you can handle accepting God exists. Once you decide God exists it doesn't matter which name man has provided. What you want to look for, is things that resonate with you and knowledge you know you can accept as being true. You don't even need religion to become a Theist. Your soul originated with God not with religion. You're just looking to find your way back to your origins being a blind man, all religions can do for you is offer you information that can get you back in alignment with what you already knew. This is all innate to you, you just have to remove the conditioning that has shielded the truth from your soul since you were born.
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How come God didn't send venomous snakes to kill them
You're not a guy to handle even the most basic elementary levels of religious concepts. How will you handle the much deeper layers? it would be like giving a loaded gun to a child. You can't handle the truth.
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@Lemming
I don't disagree with anything you laid out, only I wonder about posters who only deliberately correlate corruption scandals within organized religious circles with religious members of a forum where we have no specific affiliations with such activities. As if we have to answer for such crimes rather than entertaining genuine forms of spiritual inquiries and concepts that are relevant. Ironically, there most likely won't be any Catholics chiming in to save the day.
To me, it's just another anti-theist goofball trying to stir the pot and point fingers because they have a very low opinion of Theism, and it seems more convenient to point out things that could make us all look bad. But I've been in this game for a while, I wonder why I comment at all anymore. Perhaps I'm a dreamer, thinking there are good, honest and genuine folks looking for answers in a world where all things seem lost.
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@Lunar108
Has it ever crossed your mind that perverts slip into the system because they are aware young children are vulnerable? do you imagine that these sickos are truly God fearing people?
The same type of people you see infiltrating organizations like the Boy Scouts, or wherever you have young children falling at the mercy of perverted adults....it is no reflection on Theists (or homosexuals for that matter) it is a reflection of the nature of the carnal mind. The Catholic Church in general is just weird, not surprising they have a system designed to harbor weirdos.
What do you want anyone to say? it's disturbing, after all the scandals they should be putting extra attention on making sure shyt like this no longer happens. I don't really see any point to a discussion here, what is the point you are trying to make? do you think anyone is going to come into this topic and disagree that it is an outrage?
The only point you seem to make is the hypocrisy of opposing homosexuality while abusing young boys, yet the offenders are there because they like boys. So, they aren't really opposing homosexuality, are they? yet, some homosexual people might be terribly offended by you conflating pedophilia with being gay. As they should be!
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@GnosticChristianBishop
When you wish to debate or discuss my views and my beliefs just let me know. You made accusations, you never once countered anything I've written. To me, you seem like an angry nitwit coming to this forum to smack around a few religious people who you feel fall into your bracket of corruption. You bumped into the wrong fella.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
The churches do not like that.
If it is your duty to protest what churches do, then perhaps you should make your voice known to those who condone such practices rather than pointing your long judging finger at people in a religious forum that have zero affiliation with such things.
Again, some of you weirdos use no caution when entering a forum with your big mouths.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Perhaps.Armageddon makes Jesus quite evil.
Depends really, but I don't think it does in relation to why Armageddon takes place. Jesus is not actively trying to annihilate anyone, the opposition seeks to annihilate the positive principle. I mean, you can't have a Kingdom with two opposing forces, one has to go. If Jesus were to leave such a Kingdom undefended what good would prosper?
Jesus of the Gospels goes out of his way to pave a path of universal unity, the more he tried the more resistance he encountered. That's the nature of duality though, which is the very nature of the lower realms. The more elevated places of creation experience a lesser swing of duality.
I do not like the immoral savior ideas that immoral Christians will ignore.
I don't ignore anything immoral, if I see it as truly immoral. There are aspects of the Bible I do not agree with. I'm an Omnist towards religion and spirituality so I wouldn't be considered a fundamentalist Christian by Christian standards. However, I do quite admire Jesus of the Gospels and his principle oriented teachings. As a very young kid, I fell in love with his teachings, it resonated deeply with me and so I have reverence for his example.
I do not those who adore an evil genocidal god.
You should use more caution accusing others what they believe and what they support.
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pregnancy without sperm is impossible.
The Gospels (as well as throughout the Bible) are permeated with impossible events, suddenly you're stumped by a seemingly impossible scenario? lol. Assuming that minors, who probably value Christian beliefs, are able to freely read through these topics and considering this is a public forum you should use caution when describing your sick imagination. Kids could be reading your garbage posts.
How did God get sperm into Mary?
How does an immaterial God have sexual relations with a material body? can you articulate that sicko? miraculous events occur throughout the Bible suddenly God needs genitals and sperm to advance a physical phenomenon. Well, no one claims you're a genius....if you stick with the story instead of your twisted imagination and bizarre interpretations minors won't have to be subjected to your perversions.
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It is the type of thinking that created a God that banged a 14 year old virgin to get his son.
It is this type of thinking that makes you look like a sick moron, and certainly makes it look like you have severe reading comprehension issues.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
Your post assumes too many assertions for me to even begin to justify replying to. So, I say again, if you wish to know my opinions and beliefs you can start by asking. Once you thoroughly understand them, then you can continue to make stupid statements that may apply to me.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
It is stupid for you to quote what can be easily refuted or negated.
So, which one of us is stupid? you just did the same thing lol.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
If we are accountable, as you say, then we cannot use a savior or scapegoat. Right?
Right, the principle of forgiveness helps us achieve our goals through humility, gratefulness and compassion for others....it doesn't eliminate our accountability. That would undermine almost the entire NT.
So much for Jesus saving all.
Depends on what you mean here. You can assist in saving someone, I can assist in saving someone, Jesus can assist in saving someone. Jesus is a great spiritual being that lots of people can learn from, he is a spiritual Master, and any great Master should have students. "Saved" to me just means the beginning of a change in direction.
Do you see it as a sin to abdicate ones responsibility and use Jesus in our steed?
I see it as a misconception. I don't think anyone thinks that because Jesus had the power to forgive sins that it means they have no responsibilities for their actions. I suggest creating a poll and look at the statistics and see how many Christians believe that. I'm not offended by Christian doctrine because I know how believers feel about it, and forgiveness as a principle is a good thing not a bad thing.
Forgiveness, as it goes around from one person to the next creates a platform of mercy, I forgive you because I know I can be forgiven, you forgive me because I forgave you. As we all build our lives on a platform of mercy and forgiveness it creates unity and compassion. Of course, not everyone will use such a platform or accept it and apply it to themselves and to others but having forgiveness as a foundation is a beautiful thing. You think that forgiveness leads to irresponsibility, unaccountability and perhaps selfishness but I see it as the opposite. The principle itself breeds gratefulness.
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@Lunar108
as the perfect benevolent you would expect god to less of a sensitive crybaby and extreme butthurt, and expect him to more tolerant towards his very own creation.----------------------=============================under the assumption that god do exist and a good righteous benevolent -omnipotent,,,,,etc- god your very creator and the creator of the universe -as religions claim- , your blasphemy doesn't effect god , god wouldn't punish you for it or the true god at least and wouldn't sent people to kill you for it , or even apostasy , you would expect a broader mindset then that .you don't expect god or at least a true god to be butting heads with a human being .that would be the equivalent of you butting heads with an ant .---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------let me put it this way :does satire hurt god ?does critcism hurt god ?does apostasy hurt god ?does blasphemy hurt god ?if you answer anyone of those as yes then your god isn't worthy of worship .and punishing any person for one of those is an act of self-righteousness .if your god doesn't mind their existence and didn't punish them by himself who are you to judge in his place ? -under the assumption that your god do exist that is -
You still just don't seem to get it and you are also conflating two distinct questions. Number one, just because religious followers have an attitude of defensiveness does not mean that God does. Your title asks "why do religions fear criticism?" in which I suppose you meant why do religious followers feel disrespected by criticism and satire. That's easy to answer of course.
There's a certain amount of reverence and respect one feels when they approach related topics or accusations about God or their religious teachings. People feel very defensive about any figure with a very high status such as Kings, Queens, Presidents or any leaders that represent a group of people ect ect...I don't think it's a fear of criticism per say, more than it is a reaction of pride and emotions of being highly disrespected and facing a lack of reverence about something they deeply admire. Kind of like when people insult someone's mother, it usually provokes a good amount of anger and defensiveness. Much more so when we are talking about God, as it is a topic that touches the very core of every religious person.
So, assuming you were to criticize someone's religious beliefs or mock their Prophets and Teachers it is certainly going to provoke anger because it is something they highly respect. This should be pretty obvious. Whether or not they feel confident that they follow a true religion is really irrelevant.
Number two, God is most likely unbothered by the slander and criticism of men. That doesn't mean that those who deeply love and admire God will feel the same way. Obviously, religious followers believe they adhere to what they feel is true and if you were to criticize their beliefs it's the same as criticizing God, to them it is simply a disrespect or an insult. We can look at the actions of man and acknowledge that humans don't like their beliefs criticized but we don't know if that is true about God. Even if religious texts suggest that God is angered by trash talk and disrespect it doesn't mean it's actually true.
Number three, you're questioning a religious forum where there really aren't any active Muslims to answer for your contentions. Personally, I got used to atheists and non-believer's sick comments about my beliefs and continual mocking of God a long, long time ago. At first, I was startled that so many people could just have so much disgust, anger and contempt for or about God but that's because I always had reverence for the subject matter. Now, it's just something I'm numb to lol. I don't really care about criticism more than I care about people's potential, and if they hold so much animosity about God and religion they might miss out on some very beautiful aspects of our existence.
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@Lunar108
why should god be too mindful and sensitive towards humans satire ?
The point of your post seems to indicate religious followers are too sensitive. In which Lemming made a great point.
if an ant make fun of you would you mind it ?
LOL
consider this you claim to be a benevolent being would you really mind the criticism of an ant ?
Your claim that Islam fears satire bares truth, although you don't seem to understand why. Your following claim that suggests God fears satire is simply speculation.
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@Fruit_Inspector
I already made the point that each person is accountable for their own sins in post #5.
Yes, I wasn't arguing against you.
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@Lunar108
Don't get me wrong, I don't believe there should be any fear of criticism or the persecution of others, that wasn't the point I was making. I'm just sharing with you why people are so defensive.
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@Lunar108
are you comparing belonging to a country with belonging to a religion ?
I'm comparing one's feeling with the passion they have for something they admire and love, are loyal to and fight for.
those two things couldn't be more different
Lol really? you didn't explain how. How is one's patronage and loyalty to their country so different from their passion and loyalty to their religion? in terms of something they feel strongly and deeply about?
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@Sum1hugme
So you know because your senses don't deceive you? How do you know your senses aren't deceiving you? How do you know your experience isn't an illusion?
The only way I can truly know something is to experience it or observe it. What reason would have to believe that my senses deceive me when it relates to spirituality? if I rely on my own senses for every other observation or experience why would I expect my senses to suddenly deceive me when it comes to spiritually related observations? You glossed over my response and misquoted my answer. I'm already very familiar with my own senses, as you should be also.....when you observe or experience something, do you question whether or not it was an illusion? I'm aware of what is real and what is not as my observations are a primary function of what I am and what I know.
I also know what my own senses produce and what my own mind and thoughts produce which is why I indicated that I understand the difference between something I created as opposed to something occurring outside or distinct from the parameters of my own output and input.
You can't just say you know because you know.
Is that what I said? or did I say this....
"Because I'm not fooled by my own senses. My own senses tell me what I experience every single fckng day, when I perceive something outside the domains of my own mind and thoughts, my own awareness of what is and what is not happening I'm very aware of what is taking place. It's very easy for a guy like you to assume all sorts of crap about anything spiritually related but spiritual experiences are very clear, not distorted and certainly accompanied with meaning and truth about reality.
I've had spiritual visions, seen spiritual beings and have had many spiritual experiences and they are unlike any other experience. They aren't a distortion of the senses; they are not a deceptive encounter, and they are not false ideas or false beliefs, they're independent of what we would perceive in the material world because there is also a reality that exists independent of the material world. They are experiences that occur to our perception obviously, but they originate and are generated outside the confines of our personal parameters of the mind, thoughts, emotions, fears, desires and limited perceptions of reality.
There is indeed a much, much larger picture and we have access to that reality, but spiritual experiences are like glimpses into the vast worlds of God. Your fear of illusions is enforced by your own bias towards spirituality, that none of it can be possible. What you don't experience now you will experience later, might as well lose the bias."
If you want to deal with the contents of what I write I'd be more than willing to articulate, if not buzz off.
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@rbelivb
Believers have "faith" because their concrete ideas about God are mere arbitrary imaginings with no basis in experience nor in reason
Lol, sounds like you're done having a conversation here. Let me know when you want to know something instead of asserting it. BTW, faith is not a "belief", it is the trust and confidence in how much you know something that supports a belief through experience and reason. Without reason or experience there can be no faith, because trust and confidence require both of those factors. I'm telling you this from a spiritual perspective, this idea that faith means to belief in anything without reason or evidence is a useless term. The more reason and substance one has to accept something as true, the more faith they have. The less reason and evidence a person has to believe something the less faith they have.
We do not know anything about what created humanity
"We"? or you?
nor do we know anything about that being - if there is one
Creating topics like this one helps, it would also help if you don't assume nobody can know anything. I mean it contradicts you asking questions in the first place. Next, and perhaps most important, is to narrow down your inquiries of who you decide to learn from.
- that looks down upon human affairs and guides them from above.
Before we decide what God does and doesn't, we should probably at least get you to consider that God exists.
The intuitions or direct experiences of these can only have as much weight as any other intuition.
From your perspective I understand that. But when I experience something, I know it first hand. It would help if you were to perhaps investigate further about it if you wish to understand.
If your ideas about something are entirely untethered from your mind and from your senses, what can it mean to say you believe in it? Why believe it rather than something else? To believe in that sense simply means to affirm. The word "God" being ultimately reduced to a mere sound uttered, the idea of belief becomes nothing more than an affirmation.
I think you're making this more difficult than it really is, there is some simplicity involved in all of this. For starters there are various reasons people have to believe in God. But we want to start with a basic premise that is solid before we get into complexities. Sure, there are those who trust what their siblings have passed down to them and so there is no real reason to follow up on their beliefs. We can move that category to the side for now because there is really nothing we can gain from that.
Then, there are those who can simply observe life and the universe and become rationally convinced that God most certainly exists simply through reason, logic, common sense and perhaps what they feel is good evidence to suggest it. But even within this category there's going to be various levels of thought and reason....This boils down to interpretation (correlation) and indication as I pointed out before.
With this type of deduction, we can perhaps sway your rational mind and intellect that any other worldview or proposition for our existence is ridiculous to accept and simply will no longer do. You would have to be willing to truly examine your own worldview and stop relying on foolish mistakes religion or religious people have done and have put forward in regards to assertions about God. Meaning, the key would be for you to really evaluate why anything exists at all, why processes occur and why we have a functioning, intelligent universe. You want to put your own beliefs on the stand so-to-speak and make sure that what you have accepted is legitimate.
Once we satisfy the intellect then we have a third category, and this falls within the realms of experiential and observational knowledge. This goes back to what I was saying in my first post, spirituality is a process of learning and acquiring knowledge through experience, observation and application rather than simply appeasing the intellect.
Again, even within this category you will find various levels of expertise and knowledge so like I said above you want to really narrow down your search for truth in this area of inquiry. More importantly, if you wish to apply spirituality to yourself you have to be willing to get involved and get your hands dirty. This is where the student becomes the Master, but the student must be willing to apply what the Master teaches.
For me personally, if anyone expects to gain my trust they must qualify as someone who I feel is highly intelligent and sensible as well as possess a wealth of real experiential knowledge. Before I even consider what anyone has to say, they must prove themselves worthy to be heard. Sensibility goes a long way in this category and being able to offer their student something tangible or applicable.
In sports, Martial arts or any field of expertise one must be willing to learn from another if they wish to become anything or have any ability that amounts to something useful. Practice is something that often times is overlooked in spirituality yet is thoroughly understood if one wishes to develop any kind of ability, art, skill or craft. The same principle applies to spirituality, if you want to develop that part of yourself you must be willing to apply things in whatever form that takes on. Spirituality isn't about "beliefs" but about application and observation.
But if you come across someone who happens to make sense, you should be willing to listen and consider what they say before you reject it. You will know when that time comes.
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@Fruit_Inspector
Seriously? that man is accountable for his own actions, not the actions of another....and not any supposed original sins, but that which he does himself. Also, that if man fails, it is not God's doing either, nor God's "plan".
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Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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@GnosticChristianBishop
@Fruit_Inspector
James 1
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
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@Lunar108
Do you understand patriotism? when you understand what a creed is, perhaps it will help you sympathize with religion. Religion is like various cultures spread out all over the earth, whether or not you agree with their laws and teachings their laws and teachings represent their patronage. That is what makes them independent of every other belief system.....
Your questions are deserving of what it means to be an independent agent, but completely ignorant of cultural and spiritual patronage. There is no one true religion just like there is no one true country or state....they all exist and have relevance to their existence. This same reality extends to the afterlife, which many people have no idea about and no realization of.
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@GnosticChristianBishop
"our opinions about what God is or is not has no bearing on reality."
You are not looking at the right places.
What do you mean by "you"? You never asked about my opinions, you can start there thanks. Let me know when you're ready.
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@ethang5
Thanks man, glad to see the OC back in action.
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@Bones
There are "objectively" correct and incorrect interpretations of the universe. Some claims are compatible with the nature of our cosmos, and some are not. What the atheist merely attempts is to demonstrate that the theists pov is nonsensical.
There is no contradiction about the existence of God and our cosmos. Claims about God are irrelevant. There is no interpretation that God exists that is incorrect. What you might mean, is that there may be incorrect opinions about God. The atheist needs only to worry about their own pov about why anything exists.
It's not as simple as that - you can say "no" all you want, but at the end of the day, reasonable people will assess your alternative interpretation and conclude which worldview is more accurate.
And which worldview is more accurate? can you elaborate on why atheism is more accurate without relying on arguments for God? please demonstrate....
It debunks common arguments for God. Sure, it may not prove that God doesn't exist (just like how I cannot prove that there isn't a teapot in orbit), but it does show that some common arguments for God's existence is faulty.
In your opinion it does, that is called an interpretation. Perhaps you missed my point here. Your boy didn't debunk anything, he offered alternative explanations. I will say again....."You can offer what you feel is a superior interpretation and despite that, the interpretation you challenged could still be true that's the funny part. So hopefully you don't walk away feeling like these videos prove anything, that would be quite embarrassing on your part."
f you have time, watch 1, not 2. 2 addresses some pretty more theistic rebuttals.
Sure, what will it show me? that there are alternative arguments to that which I never argued??
Atheism does not equate to materialism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in God. Buddhism is an atheistic doctrine, for example, but it is far from being materialist.
Buddhism has a sect of what they call "atheist" ideology but then you have to account for spiritual beings, Buddhist cosmology and why there are extra dimensions of reality without the involvement of God. In other words, it's extra stupid, when you apply Buddhism to atheism.
I have to sigh at this really, because atheists have a hard time admitting to materialism when their friggin beliefs equate to materialism lol. Do you find that a bit ironic Bones?
Materialism-
"a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter"
Perhaps you can supply your alternative theory, because there is no alternative theory if you're an atheist.
He's sharp and respectful - one of the better Youtube atheists.
Perhaps, he has a nice accent lol. Not sure how far his intellect reaches, hopefully you weren't swayed by his dialect. I don't see any real reason to believe what he says. Atheism is an inferior worldview.
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@rbelivb
This seems to be the key point. There is a difference between what makes sense theologically, versus what believers actually have in mind when they think about God.
The key point I was making, is that it doesn't really matter what we believe about God in relation to God's existence. What does God's existence have to do with rumors? other than a rumor is just a rumor?
I am sure that believers have experiences that assure them, from their point of view, that a being exists - called "God" because of the connotations of that word.
Okay....
But if we really follow out the implications of a being, absolutely omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent -
Is this what you think about God? or is this someone's assumption about God? Some of these terms are simply unnecessary.
by definition this is such an abstract concept
Is it? I don't see anything abstract here. I see ideas that may or may not be accurate, but certainly feasible as an objective reality. If God exists, God should certainly be considered a maximal being, but there is no need to assert anything other than that.
that we have no way to know that whatever our intuitive idea about God really has any relation to what God "really is."
What is your own intuitive idea about God? my next question would be.....does your own intuitive idea about God have any relevance to whether or not God actually exists? what I'm trying to get it is, the point that you are making is moot, irrelevant. We can believe all sorts of crap about God, but God still exists. The only thing that our personal belief (about God) changes is our personal perception of God, but God still exists despite what we think about it.
Let's say for example, that there were rumors going around about you that may not be accurate. What effect does that have on reality other than someone's opinion about you? the point I'm making, is that if God exists it doesn't really matter what anything thinks about God....what God "really is". Either God exists or God does not, our opinions about what God is or is not has no bearing on reality.
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@Sum1hugme
How do you know that your experience of God isn't merely an illusion?
Because I'm not fooled by my own senses. My own senses tell me what I experience every single fckng day, when I perceive something outside the domains of my own mind and thoughts, my own awareness of what is and what is not happening I'm very aware of what is taking place. It's very easy for a guy like you to assume all sorts of crap about anything spiritually related but spiritual experiences are very clear, not distorted and certainly accompanied with meaning and truth about reality.
I've had spiritual visions, seen spiritual beings and have had many spiritual experiences and they are unlike any other experience. They aren't a distortion of the senses; they are not a deceptive encounter, and they are not false ideas or false beliefs, they're independent of what we would perceive in the material world because there is also a reality that exists independent of the material world. They are experiences that occur to our perception obviously, but they originate and are generated outside the confines of our personal parameters of the mind, thoughts, emotions, fears, desires and limited perceptions of reality.
There is indeed a much, much larger picture and we have access to that reality, but spiritual experiences are like glimpses into the vast worlds of God. Your fear of illusions is enforced by your own bias towards spirituality, that none of it can be possible. What you don't experience now you will experience later, might as well lose the bias.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Tradesecret is very specific about what he thinks so he had every right to have that question posed to him.
Part of the point I was making is that I don't want to have to answer for every version of God to discuss the concept of a Creator. The question was put to Trade, but it's a common problem.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Well aware of that I believe that the creator of the universe is that has nothing to do with gods and gods are beings and evolve the same as humans and a way that's different to us on different planes.
Sounds like we are on the same track.
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@Polytheist-Witch
BTW, I'm not anti-polytheism. We've had this discussion; I believe it is compatible with monotheism. It sounds contradictory but I'm willing to explain what I mean by that. Many Gods and rulers exist, but they originate from a Singular Platform.
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@Polytheist-Witch
The question was raised to Tradesecret who certainly has chosen a creator inside a religion and certainly has said that religion involves Jesus Christ
His comment said nothing about any religious proposition, which was my point. I know what he believes, but it's not relevant to whether or not there is sufficient evidence to suggest there is a Creator.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If I say "Creator", I'm not making extra claims in reference to any particular view of God, or gods....I am only referencing creation as a product of an Intelligent Force. I'm not denying or supporting religious propositions.
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