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@zedvictor4
The fact is, no one is actually able to know or explain, how anything can exist.
Lol, sure pal. I know better than getting you involved. You oughta know what I believe by now anyways, yet I always have to repeat myself and deal with all your strawmen. You're the worst kind of person to have any intelligent dialogue with.
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@Sum1hugme
Nah, it's just imaginary. There is nothing empirical about the concept of god to tie it to reality. All there is is a concept, the same as the concept of unicorns or leprechauns, but nothing empirical to indicate it isn't also imaginary.
I want to know your actual reasoning for why God cannot exist. I need your personal interpretation for why the universe cannot be a product of God. I mean honestly, it is very easy to correlate the processes of the universe with intelligence so a Creator is a working proposition, not just a concept. In other words, it CAN be tied to reality sir.
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@DeadFire27
I DON'T KNOW:
Are you sure? what does your intuition tell you?
I joined this site as a traditional Christian, but, after my humiliating loss to Bones (my first debate), well, I started to doubt myself. I had never actually questioned God before, but the points against it make sense.
I think that's fine, but don't throw in the towel because of a loss about some things you haven't considered. You don't have to give up your natural response to life that God exists, beliefs are flexible in the sense that there is nothing about God, creation or the proposition of a soul that you would ever need to forfeit because there is no reasoning that can show of their nonexistence.
There may be ideas, dogma and preconceived notions about God that another debater can debunk or pin you in a corner because they helped you see the nonsense in some belief you hold true to. But despite all that, God as a concept (and even a reality) will always stand tall and true no matter the argument put forth.
If you want good reason to maintain your belief in God, hook up with me and ask me some tough questions or send me a PM and I'll give you some interesting rebuttals to whoever you think is getting an advantage over you.
At worst, I'll have you suspend some of your personal beliefs to see other options about God's existence.
However, there is a reason I don't personally identify with Atheism either.
That will probably always stay with you, because you cannot escape your true nature. Even staunch atheists at some point, will be so consumed with their thoughts about God and who they really are will need more than materialism to fill their natural curiosity. I mean look at the religion forum, they are obsessed with the topic even though they bash Theists. They cannot help themselves and even though they play on the wrong side the fragrance of what they really are follows them around.
No matter what, don't identify with any belief or ideology that could strip away your potential. If anything, just say you don't know. Never say yeah....I'm an atheist and a materialist because believe me, even though they play hardball they have no idea what exists and what doesn't. Don't let them fool you.
Death.Where do we go?
Many different places. Creation is massive, there are multiple parallel worlds and so each soul has a very long journey ahead of them.
There is no scientific evidence anywhere which proves where our spirits go, so the only option I can see is a deity. Or deities.
True....Science cannot reach that which transcends the physical boundaries so be clear in your understanding that science is simply a method of study that deals with material phenomenon, it has no life, truth or knowledge of its own. We formulate theories based on what we find of the physical world and people make interpretations from what they see. But the problem with that, is they don't see everything so the materialist mumbo jumbo is a bunch of speculations from certain people who have very limited tools'
Just remember science is a neutral study, it doesn't make any claims about God's existence only people do. A limited one at that in the sense that it is not equipped to handle spiritual phenomenon, that is where religion and spirituality pick up the ball.
Science and spirituality have no conflict believe it or not, they both study two different natures of human experience and so they are in harmony. Don't get that twisted with religious propositions because God's existence and scientific study flow harmoniously together.
So, agnostic. And until someone proves where we go when we die, I'm staying this way.
Well there's flat out proof that souls exist independent of the physical body during NDE's. You can interpret that however you want, but it is evidence of the soul having conscious experiences OUTSIDE the confines of the material body. Religion and spirituality have been proposing the souls existence as long as man has existed. Paranormal encounters all over the world signifies the same is true, that life transcends the physical world. This amount of experience isn't people's imaginations, that's what atheists want you to believe so they can coddle their nonsense materialistic worldview in spite of the actual evidence.
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@RationalMadman
The god I believe/know to be real is, in human psyche terms, sociopathic and apathetic. She is also rather feminine, we are here to impress and entertain her.You can think I'm insane, I accept that. I can't make you go through what I did, including clinicial depression where you screamed in your head at god to give you a reason to live and then the reasons came the next day, indisputably. You don't know my life or story, I'm telling you there's something out there and it's apathetic and sadistic but not without redeeming features. The god doesn't want us all to suffer, that's not entertaining to watch, it's more fun if pleasure and characters to root for are mixed in.Everything in reality actually fits this type of god, the rest falls into place after you first reach out and get your own answers (won't be the same as mine).
First of all I appreciate your in depth response, I think you are reacting to what you see in reality which is plenty fair. However, what if what you see right now in this part of creation is a very small fraction of experience? like say, perhaps you are in a simulation within a much more massive simulation where things may not be so rigid and harsh? or what if you are confined temporarily to a very limited sect of creation to learn some things? If I gave you a series of tests and some of those tests were more severe in nature would that mean that all the tests, including the test giver were only of that same nature?
Well maybe you're right, God being sadistic in all...but I'm just saying that our perceptions and personal experiences often fail at highlighting the whole of life.
We also discussed God being female once before, I guess you never considered what I had to say about God having no gender role (neither male nor female) but rather God has attributes and qualities of creative expression play out in God's creation. Some people get confused with created things as opposed to God's nature. I don't think God is one thing or another, more like creation, including the duality between male and female are expressions of both qualities of God. There are many incarnations (incarnated beings) though, that take on male and female roles. Sometimes, souls will have experiences with either of those types but they all come out of a unified singular Source where all things exist within It.
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@oromagi
dunno
I believe that, but I don't know why you think it. With all the information available why don't you know? what is lacking that the options aren't clear enough?
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@Bones
My no is as certain as the no which I give to people asking me whether there are invisible naked men dancing my room right now.
Reducing God to an absurdity doesn't help your case any. That's what many of you snobby atheists don't seem to understand, the concept of a Creator God is not an absurd proposition. I mean, you basically have two options...either God exists or God doesn't. Those who correlate the products of the universe with intelligence have just as much reason in the game as you do. So don't insult my intelligence.
Comparing God to silly things is simply silly. Not only that, but brilliant thinkers and philosophers have considered the concept well worth theorizing and debating for a very long time. So I don't know if you care, from what I've seen probably not but it makes you appear very small minded making comments like this. Perhaps go back and read the OP and see if you can comment on what I asked you to. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you may not be that stupid, but if this is all you got you probably should have not commented at all.
But do me a favor if you decide to give some intelligent reasoning why God cannot exist, don't respond with a bunch of strawmen and atheist-bashing-the-Bible junk before you even know my beliefs and what this topic has asked. I want you to to simply evaluate your own method of reasoning why a Creator cannot exist, or does not exist, so this has nothing to do with religion at the moment.
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Does God exist?
Yes, no or I don't know?
Next, give an explanation for what you believe is sufficient reasoning of your answer. Any explanation that claims simply "there is no evidence God exists" will be dismissed for lack of intelligent thought, in other words that explanation won't be good enough for this topic. Be creative and at least try and come up with an original thought that supports your theory. For this topic, lack of evidence is not evidence of absence. The indication that God exists is very strong, so there needs to be a clear indication of the contrary.
There also needs to be clear explanation for why you believe God exists, to be fair. So if you want to be taken seriously you'll have to give sufficient reasoning. Those who don't know, you're not off the hook...please explain, with all the information available why you believe it's justified to claim you don't know.
There's hundreds of people within this forum too, so every single one of you has one of the three options. I don't want just the same 8 people giving their opinion, if you have a brain you should contribute to this topic one way or another. This is a serious topic and one that applies to every single member.
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@n8nrgmi
what do you think, theists?is it a weak point that many types of miracles of the bible dont happen nowadays?
I guess in some ways, but I personally tend put more worth in the application of scripture than anything else because ultimately it is the only thing relevant to yourself. I'm sure if miracles happened all the time like they did in the Bible our job here would be a lot easier :/ but in the end game look at all the defiant among such great works depicted in scripture so it seems the defiant wouldn't care anyways. Jesus is a great example of miraculous works and look at where it got him, he was labeled a blasphemous worker of the devil and then murdered. So what good did miracles do in the face of tyrants?
The sad truth in this world, is the more good works you do and the more effective you are the more you suffer and are persecuted. The more you become a target of the defiant. The brighter the light shines the darker the contrast of evil becomes, it's the principle of duality. So if you want to get yourself killed, rev up your faith and start healing people lol.
maybe many miracles need plausible deniability to maintain faith?
I compare lack of miracles to lack of faith. I think miracle working faith is rare, and probably if it exists you would never hear about it. So if I'm lacking works in my life I blame my own faith not God. But again, this misconception that faith is a religious belief creates a problem. Your faith is to maintain your confidence in God despite what you see. Faith is not a religious creed, it is trust and confidence in your belief and as Jesus points out "according to YOUR faith (trust)"...."if YOU had faith (confidence)"...you could remove obstacles in your life and around you.
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@Ramshutu
then you can only “know” something is true if you can show it matches reality.
Who's observations of reality are we going by? those who witness something or those who do not? there's nothing about spiritual knowledge that contradicts reality, it's a huge percentage of human experience.
That implies religious “truth” you can’t confirm can’t be considered knowledge.
Confirmed by whom?
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@Double_R
BTW, I'm not really supporting the idea that atheists should not be allowed here. I do think it's fair that they become part of the dialogue, but there has to be some limits set. They can't offer or contribute much to spiritual topics obviously, but they certainly should be able to test the topics by debating them rather than claiming the topics simply cannot exist. It's far more intellectual and open-minded to see if such claims have reason, evidence and logic to support them rather than just being here to shut everything down because of the preconceived idea that nothing can be true because nothing can be witnessed or that there is nothing to witness.
That would be like me going into the sports forum or the politics forum and claiming nothing can be debated here because nobodies experience with either topic is relevant because I believe it can't be experienced, they are just figments of other people's imaginations. Keeping in mind this is just an illustration to make a point....I understand the difference between spirituality and those other topics. However, spirituality is something many people experience and wish to share or discuss. That is why the forum exists, not to mention it is one of the more popular and intriguing sections.
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@Double_R
Imagine a trial where the witnesses on one side are all telling the same story and the witnesses on the other are all saying something completely different.What would you infer from that?
It depends, whether or not the witnesses on the other side have any say in what the other witnesses are claiming, or are they just claiming that what they witnessed cannot be witnessed? wouldn't that be stupid? if one party witnessed something and the other party is just there to say no, they cannot witness that? lol, that's pretty much the game here. In other words, wth do the other witnesses even represent? they witnessed nothing, the other party does. Do we go with the party who witnessed something to support one side, or the party who witnessed nothing?
This is sort of the whole point here, you atheists claim you witness nothing, so what skin do you even have in the game? why are you even at the trial to begin with?
Even if the witnesses who witnessed something, happen to vary in what they witnessed we still want to collect the data. The other party who has no data can take a hike. They aren't part of the trial.
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@Bones
there is a very big difference between a joke, even a risky joke and a defamatory accusation.
Well not that it matters much now, but like I said it came out wrong. The way you wrote the statement came off like you were saying that the choir boy wanted it, I get your reasoning why you disagree so I'm not saying that is what you insinuated. I don't think Ethan was trying to slander you, he thought you meant something other than what you were thinking because of the way you wrote it and I'm just going to leave it that, that the whole thing has gone too far. Because while you thought he was making a defamatory accusation, you are too by calling him a pedophile. If anything constitutes slander, it's that. You obviously are offended because that's not what you meant so at this point it would be better if the whole conversation ended.
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@Bones
TBH the exchange between you two was pretty funny and entertaining. You both have good humor, it's too bad things got out of hand. I think calling each other pedophiles is taking things way too far. It's obvious your comment about choir boys was took the wrong way, but you left a lot open for interpretation on that statement....it just came out wrong man. I think bringing someone's mother into an argument is somewhat immature. Other than that you sound like a decent dude. Maybe you guys should squash this before anymore damage is done.
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@3RU7AL
The only reason the RELIGION category even exists is because we'd like to try and keep the kinds of people it attracts OUT of the PHILOSOPHY forum.
This is idiotic and is seriously part of the problem. The topic of existence and reality is obviously directly related to religious ideals. Religion and religious propositions make up a large percentage of philosophical inquiry and always has, so what the hell do you want? a bunch of snot-nosed atheists blowing smoke up each other butts about materialism?? well why don't we just create an atheist forum altogether since they can't seem to keep their noses where they belong?
I've given a lot of very intriguing and interesting things to ponder over the years and just for yal, I keep religious dogma at bay so as to not disturb atheists allergic reactions to any particular religious source but it doesn't matter does it? I'm just simply lumped into their category of another dumb believer, swept aside as another piece of theist trash. What's the point in even trying to be original and creative to spoon feed the baby brats? here you want us out of the philosophy forum yet here you are in our part of the cite to complain, WTF?
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@3RU7AL
Are you saying you want to solicit atheism in a religion forum? whatever man. I'm not a Mormon, I'm not here to harass people or taunt atheists. I just came here originally because DDO turned into a shit fest where obsessed weirdo atheists bombarded every discussion and an insane Hindu took over the entire forum. I'm one of the original members here to participate and it was our hope we could establish a decent, intellectual place where everyone could have a great time.
As sure as the sun shines, the loonies followed us over here and even though some of them were banned it's really not much better than our former retard show was. And TBH it's not just obsessed atheists, there's a couple of real strange I-have-no-clue-what-the-hell-they-are nutballs that are Bible-crazed freaks. One has severe reading comprehension issues, thinks he's some hero exposing passages he really has no clue about and the other might be an atheist acting like an asinine Bible Thumper who obviously has some real communication problems.
One atheist here cannot for the life of him come up with a single original thought lol, he just follows us around posting stupid quotes and one-liners. I could challenge any one of his silly quotes but will it do any good? of course not, because he's one of those obsessed loonies that have no plans of an intellectual exchange that could change his worldview. He just wants to be here to vent his obvious daddy issues.
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@949havoc
Well I can't speak for others, but I would assume the average person entering a public discussion forum to expose a wide variety of beliefs aren't "afraid". Why even come to debate beliefs and discuss them if one is scared of what they may hear or encounter?? I don't think that's the issue really. I think people are finally getting tired of the supposed "open-minded" showing up to completely dismiss the possibility God exists and not consider that spiritual phenomenon might have truth to it.
I mean what's the point in even coming to a forum tailored for spiritual concepts and discussion just to claim atheism/materialism, I mean it's always Atheist vs Theist in almost every thread. Personally it's getting old being a target for close-minded one-dimensional thinkers who parade themselves as intellectually superior.
It's getting to the point where we might as well create a separate forum just for atheists to moan and groan about God not existing lol, and how they feel believers are mentally ill. On the other hand I've been in this game for probably too long, it would be a nice change to collaborate and explore instead of playing the "God does not exist God is a delusion" game. It's nearly impossible to not have some goober come in a normal thought provoking conversation and start rehearsing nonsense.
Not only that, but there's always a battle of insults to every topic. Why does everything have to be fight or war?
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@Polytheist-Witch
then you are clueless
Perhaps I am lol, I'd rather not lump anyone into the same category until they prove they belong there. I mean, I don't like it when I'm lumped into a category just for my beliefs so I wouldn't want to do that even with an atheist. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt...There are some here I do like and respect. You might be right though, but I do prefer if they are nice about it. I can't deal with punks and snot noses very well, I think attitude goes a long way.
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@Wylted
1. Be respectful, ask questions to learn about the religions, but never to challenge any of them.
I do personally agree that the presence of atheists within a religious section has really ruined these topics altogether over the years. But there are some here that aren't just contributing to harass, the atheists that are interested in spiritual ideas because they really don't know or understand them are the best kinds of people. It's the obsessed, militant weirdos, I'll mention some from the past so as not to call anyone out that is here now. But atheists like Bulproof, Goldtop, Ruvdraba and all those who come into the discussions with presumptions and assertions that may or may not apply and who are just acting on their weird compulsions as they have no interest in truth or what could be true. And there's quite a few here that soil up what could have been decent topics.
They have chips on their shoulders and so they lash out on innocent Theists just here to have a good time and share some interesting ideas and observations. They carry over their anger and outrage of their past experiences and take it out on anyone who believes in God. I've come to realize that many atheists grew up in a Christian environment, and because of their outrage and resentment for their own parents for forcing them to do and think certain ways they come to forums like these just to tear Theists new buttholes.
What kind of way is that to find out the truth in something or discover what could be possible? then it's no longer about evidence, reason, logic, honest debate or sensibility it's just about their little temper tantrums and piss poor attitudes because they probably think they were emotionally abused and even if they were I don't want any part of it because I'm not here to abuse anyone and lead anyone away from what is real and true. I let these bullies run all over me for years without ever raising a hand or even insulting anyone back. Then I realized that being a nice guy simply did not matter and I've lost much of my zeal and respect for atheists.
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@Wylted
You've always been a very sarcastic person so it is difficult to know when you're not fcking around. Are you sure you're even a Theist lol?
Otherwise you get idiots trying to mock us by worshipping spaghetti monsters. Sticking to sensible abrahamic religions is a good compromise
I don't see how that follows, they do that even when we are sticking to the Bible. Actually the Abrahamic religions are why they mock us, did you forget? Other religions do have sensible aspects, and sometimes more realistic too.
atheists belong in the philosophy section.
I see where you're going with this. And obviously there might be more intelligent and profitable conversations but then again, we need more intelligent Theists to start contributing. TBH though, the Bible has been talked about, argued over and monotonously scrutinized for so long what's left to discuss? I mean the battle between Catholics and Christians is so boring it's disturbing. When we have a room full of Christians that's pretty much where it all devolves, do you really want that again?
I think leaving out other potentially insightful religious ideas contradicts what this forum should be about. I honestly don't want to argue with other believers about the Bible, can't do that anymore. There's many things to debate and discuss besides Bible verses, and I may add much more interesting things. For example, if I were to expand on what a soul is, what it is and how it originates or what God is, or how creation was formed from scratch, what all entails an afterlife, what is there and how it operates ect ect and then some Bible thumper comes along and can just say...."well that's not in the Bible", and then we can all just call ourselves retards.
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1. Be respectful, ask questions to learn about the religions, but never to challenge any of them.2. When we have our worship services, you are welcome to attend but you can not participate in online holy practices like confession or drinking the blood of christ.
We have enough stupid atheist humor here, do we really need more? Wylted, over the years you've become even more of a shriveled mess. I have to have hope though right :/
theists of all religions are welcome to debate God here as long as it is the abrahamic God.
Lol, that makes sense.
Though atheists are welcome, because we want you to learn and avoid burning in hell.
Yeah, throw some more fuel on the fire. I guess it's impossible to avoid complete retards wherever there is spiritual discussions. Oh well, after 15 years of this shite I should be used to it.
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@Bones
Brother is a joke on purpose
I agree he is a joke, but have you ever asked him of his purpose?
and brings diversity to the religious forum
Then you are really bored son.
Ethang on the other hand tries to engage in serious conversation and wholeheartedly believes that people who disagree with him are cripples
First of all, have you tried to engage in serious conversation with Brother Dick? give it a try...
Secondly, it seems to me that Ethan gets the impression that your topic on the teachings of Jesus are somewhat of a worthless endeavor. I would have to agree with that.
Whilst brother has a unique dynamic in which he is funny
Maybe to immature punks who think anything related to spiritual topics are fantasy because of their limited worldview IDK, I'm not one of those and never was. Certainly my take on what is funny differs from yours. To me the guy is a retard.
I get the feeling that ethang seriously wants to hurt me.
Lol, he said a lot of things but he certainly didn't wish you to hell.
He calls everyone a hell-bound atheist, as part of his true Christian identity.
Whether he believes that or not, it's a lot like me wishing you the worst death even though I may not believe in death.
I think it's pretty obvious that he doesn't actually want me to spend eternity burning in a pit of fire.
Why don't we ask the Dick head, and see what he says? do you think you could get an honest answer out of a really stupid person?
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@Bones
Honestly, this Brother Dick guy is a bit of a laugh. I mean really, how can you say that about one guy while completely ignoring the fact that this guy is a complete joke? unbelievable lol. Why don't you try engaging the nutcase instead of complying with him? I mean he just called you a hell-bound atheist to your face and you have absolutely no objection to it, you just took it right up the arse. The double standards here are astounding.
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@Greyparrot
Does this imply God has a butt?
Lol, do you really want any answers?? ya know I don't mind looking like a nutter temporarily so that when some of you get a taste of the afterlife you don't feel like complete morons when you get there, unexposed and all. There's quite a bit of beautiful, yet usual things that take place in the heavens. Most humans have no idea what is even possible beyond the limits of the physical realm, what exists, in what forms, in what places ect ect. Physics change drastically outside of the rigid material world and the dynamics of what is really possible become more of a reality. Souls that have had spiritual encounters and those who have had an NDE or an OBE are forever changed by their perception of what exists and what may be possible.
Say....if you went to the Kingdom of Heaven as recorded in the scriptures of the Bible there would certainly be a throne room and an actual throne within what is described as a "city". Actually the river of life flows directly from the throne room right through the gardens of Heaven which is unbelievably beautiful, which is lined by magnificent trees like you've never seen before. There's a lot here on this planet of what we would see in the afterlife just on a greater, much more grand scale. So people might find it amusing that scriptures would suggest such things about God or the afterlife not knowing that this world mimics many things that were already in existence in other places.
There are many differences though, God is not a physical being with any human features, but then there are spiritual beings that have spirit bodies that resemble human form. They aren't limited like human bodies are even though they have likeness.
A throne room in Heaven!...this would be more like a power center, energetic spiritual amphitheater and focal point of energy of such an existent paradise where you would also see Jesus coming to and fro where a powerhouse/vortex of energy would flow from the presence of God (the Father), the being of Jesus, the saints and all sorts of angels out into Heaven and into parts of the physical world where this energy could be channeled. God doesn't have to have a butt to fill a throne room with presence, Jesus though does have an incarnated body where he has features what you would refer to as human form, albeit a spiritual form.
If you were to see the throne room of the Kingdom of Heaven if you were so lucky, you would see what would look like a massive confined point of light and energy emitting the most beautiful array of colors and power. It would certainly put you on your face in awe, as that power would shake you to your very core you could only collapse. Out of that magnificent light and energy you would see Jesus going into the Father and out of the Father where you could witness in Jesus something you could define and touch.
Jesus is the form of God you can talk to, feel and relate to. Known as the Son of the Father, the King of Heaven is a being that you can approach and learn from all things regarding you and creation. It's a shame that such marvelous places like Heaven get scorned and mocked without people knowing truly what reality is and what that entails.
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@Polytheist-Witch
When the hospital overdosed me on fentanyl and I had to be revived I have no recall of what happened in that time.
Just to expand on this a bit....not everyone who blacks out or goes unconscious experiences an NDE. Since you are not in an unconscious state during an NDE it is something you wouldn't have forgotten or not recalled....You have to actually detach from the physical body due to extreme trauma where the physical body can no longer sustain its presence, otherwise your perception will still be primarily influenced by the confines of the brain. There's a fine line between being connected and disconnected from the body, but you can't experience an NDE unless you fully disengage the brain. Having said that, that doesn't mean things couldn't have occurred during that time, you were just unconscious of it. Had you had an OBE you would have been aware of it though.
You could have also been near death, just didn't experience an out of body travel because of the connection of the body still present.
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@Bones
The Christian Heaven is a Kingdom, which is a literal planet in the next life, which exists in a parallel universe....and Jesus obviously being the King (Ruler) over that particular Kingdom is who you would encounter if you were lucky enough to visit. It is a literal society among many others which exist in different locations. A Christian, being a follower and citizen of that Kingdom sees Jesus, it's because Jesus wanted to appear to that person for whatever reason.
Rarely would a soul leave the body during an NDE and be present within that Kingdom because souls must be brought there and permitted to enter. This doesn't always happen but could, they may also encounter any number of spiritual beings just like you would encounter any number of humans if you were to walk down the street.
But if a soul has inherited the Christian paradise or is a follower of those teachings, their experiences will primarily entail those particular features because that is where their next stop will be. Although, that is not always a given, even so-called Christians may not inherit such a place and depending on their actions they may have very bad experiences alternatively.
Even then an NDE is when a person hasn't fully crossed over to the other side, otherwise they wouldn't be coming back to tell about it. An NDE is when a soul has experienced sudden trauma that forced them out of the physical body. If they left the body due to some sort of an accident in which they never finished their time here they may be urged or told that they must go back. That is, if the physical body has not been damaged beyond repair.
Most souls don't have any knowledge of the afterlife and they may think when they leave the body that whatever they are experiencing is heaven. But they are unaware of the reality that they have merely left the body and are simply present within another plane of existence. Heavens exist on actual planets, and societies extend to all places within the next world. Just like our physical universe has many, many planets so does the following experience.
Leaving the physical body would be much like being in space, where you could travel to any number of places. Of course it's much more controlled than just floating about in space, souls are not limited by the atmosphere in the astral plane like humans are when they leave earth. There's spiritual beings all over the place when you leave this world, and when that occurs there will be an order of decisions you will have to follow that dictates where you will arrive.
Did you know that Hindus have heavens and hells? Buddhists have heavens and hells? not just Christians? did you know that any number of societies (religions) have places of pleasure and places of correction for behavior of their citizens? did you know there's places for souls who have no religious affairs or backgrounds? creation is virtually endless, and the Creator is not that stupid to accommodate one group of peoples. Nor is God that limited in creative genius.
All these features and places exist within a massive stretch of creation. Souls fight, argue and throw fits over their belief that their place of destination is the only place that could exist lol, but they are true patrons of their societies and to them that is all that exists. It doesn't mean only one of those places could exist though as it is irrelevant, rather there are many places that exist beyond this world. And when a soul leaves the physical body they could have many differing observations.
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The fact that there's a variety of places, people and things one can experience when they leave the physical body is what makes creation beautiful. It doesn't discredit NDE's, it works in its favor.
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@Bones
Because there's not just one place in the afterlife, why does everyone always ask this?
If you sent ten people all over the world (or all over the universe) do you think they all come back with the same experiences of people, places and things?
When you leave the physical body you will be present in a parallel universe, you could be located in any number of places and where you go from there could be virtually any numbers of other places.
Now having said that, NDE testimonies have many similar features. They all experience dying, leaving the body and from there they may see other spiritual beings, they may believe they hear God say something, they may see heaven (which is a planet BTW), they may trip through the Akashic Records to review what they have done in their life or visit certain memories that they need to see. They may see Jesus, or any other number of spiritual Masters depending upon where they are and where they may go.
You know, when any person dies here in this physical world their spirit moves on, and those beings can be encountered. When you die, there's not just one or two places lol, there's many. These aren't different versions, they are literally different experiences because there are countless societies that exist outside the physical world.
But, I must ask you. Are you just making crap up or have you actually studied NDE's? because most people neither see Jesus, Brahma or Allah when they leave the physical body. Normally they are just present within the astral plane, sometimes souls see Jesus but not always and not likely. I linked a documentary in another thread involving many NDE testimonies with corresponding medical facts associated with each case. That documentary is called "I Survived Beyond and Back".
Also, if a soul experiences God in some way, to them it's the only God they know of. So just because someone calls God Allah doesn't mean it's not Brahma to someone else, or any other number of "names" or titles. No one "sees" God anyways, if they see anyone it would have to be an incarnation like Jesus because God cannot be "seen". In order a soul be seen they must have an embodiment.
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@ethang5
Right. Your mother will never die.Now, go cry on her shoulder, mine are soggy from your begging tears.
LOL, good to have ya back Trash Man, there's lots of scum here that needs to be cleaned up. What's new though right Ethan? these religion forums seem to attract obsessed, loony nonbelievers by the truck loads. Once we haul out a load, another follows lol.
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@949havoc
However, the alleged NDE experience has scientific study opposition
There's nothing new there, science cannot account for the soul and it has no way of measuring consciousness outside the body. I've thoroughly explained why brains measure activity....My posts in this thread go over all of that, feel free to read through them.
Also in this topic
It's funny though, when someone digs up a link that tries to disqualify NDE's through conjecture or making a fuss about brain activity they don't look any further. Find a source that supports it, that's how you get a more thorough understanding of the subject. It's not very hard to google "debunking" this or that because everybody has an opinion especially regarding topics of a more spiritual background.
Materialists will always try and makes excuses for why people have transcendent encounters, that's their job to attempt to stay legitimate as if they know what exists and what doesn't.
The second completely discounts the claim. of out-of-body experience as being simply a "mind trip."
I'm sure they do, reading through the link there is nothing more than opinions. They basically claim it's not possible because it hasn't been scientifically proven lol, do you know how silly that is? no one here is claiming it's been proven through the scientific method, that is irrelevant. Has it been proven through the scientific method that God exists? does that mean God does not exist?? of course not, that too is out of their body of knowledge. These are subject matters they cannot reach and is of a contrasting nature.
You can watch the documentary series that I provided of people who have had them along side medical facts that correspond with each case. Then you can see what the actual claims are instead of trusting some biased link that really has no place making any claims about these experiences. That's not their field of study, they are limited by material tools and materialistic assumptions.
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@949havoc
and the mind can take on any flight of fancy it can conjure.
The afterlife is an apparent objective reality, it doesn't rely on the mind or our feelings about it to exist. Actually, NDE experiences go well beyond what one may conjure up, and many times these experiences are observed by people who have no ideas or thoughts about an afterlife, they are simply observing it.
The worlds of God are parallel worlds that can be experienced, the soul can have any number of experiences that involve being aware of them whether that be from higher conscious receptions, visions or simply leaving the physical body and being there to witness them.
The soul in this world is much like a receiver of radio frequencies where it can pick up on any number of channels that exist on a conscious level, but when the soul leaves it's radio it may enter those frequencies and experience them and inhabit them. During an NDE, the soul is simply observing another range of frequency outside of where it previously was stationed. I get the feeling you believe in the soul right? well the soul is not restricted to the physical body when the right circumstances arise. When the death of the body occurs, whether that be permanent or temporary, the observation point of the soul is adjusted accordingly.
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@949havoc
So-called after-life experience isn't really fully after life since we're still here in body
NDE's are technically experiences outside the physical body. That's because the soul exists independent of it, it can travel freely outside those domains. While the body is still functioning it confines the soul to that vehicle. When the body loses it's normal function (dies) the soul is released. If the body regains function, many times the soul will be urged or permitted to stay in this world and finish their journey. In essence, NDE's are more like accidents, where a soul is released into a parallel world.
When you die, your soul will be present within that reality. An NDE is basically like a glimpse into that world, and they are able to tell of their encounter.
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NDE facts
an NDE is a powerful event of consciousness; it is not mental illness
a sense of being outside one’s physical body, sometimes perceiving it from an outside position
4 to 15 % of the population have had NDEs
18% of people who suffered a cardiac arrest and were clinically dead had later reported an NDE
lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function
A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain
Aren’t NDEs hallucinations? No. Hallucinations are usually illogical, fleeting, bizarre, and/or distorted, whereas the vast majority of NDEs are logical, orderly, clear, and comprehensible
NDEs often lead to profound and permanent transformations in personality, attitudes, beliefs and values, something that is never seen following hallucinations
People looking back on hallucinations typically recognize them as unreal, as fantasies, whereas, people often describe their NDEs as “more real than real."
Further, people who have experienced both hallucinations and an NDE describe them as being quite different
Aren’t NDEs the result of anoxia (lack of oxygen) in a dying brain? No. Physicians have compared oxygen levels of cardiac arrest survivors who did and did not have NDEs and their findings discredit the anoxia hypothesis
In fact, in one study, the NDErs had higher oxygen levels than non-NDErs
Haven’t locations in the brain been found to produce an NDE? there is no empirical evidence that any one of these, or a combination of them, manufacture the NDE. Every perception we have will be associated with activity in a specific part of the brain, but that doesn’t mean the activity caused the experience
Millions of people from all over the world have undergone a Near-Death Experience. In 1983 a major American survey by George Gallup Junior reported that about five per cent of the adult population had experienced one
Studies in many different countries have shown that people are having the same experiences all over the world
People see what’s happening to their body while they are unconscious
A huge percentage of near-death experiencers are able to describe exactly what happened to them while they were unconscious
They know who was present, what people were talking about even at a distance
Many of the patients who have been revived have been able to describe in great technical detail exactly what went on in the operating room
It doesn’t take a Near Death Experience to make you aware that you are a soul having a human experience here on earth, but the evidence certainly makes the case that there is life beyond our human existence
One in 10 people have near-death experiences, according to a new study
What it can do though is give you good reason to believe in the possibility that bodily death is not the end, and provide some scientific evidence that supports this view
They do not seem to be culturally motivated nor do they have bias when it comes to age or gender
The International Association for Near-Death Studies says: “Every day in the U.S. 800 near-death experiences occur.”
Around 85% of the people who experienced near-death states say that their lives were forever changed by the experience
Psychological changes include no longer having a fear of death
Did you know that nearly 85 percent of children who undergo cardiac arrest have a near-death experience (NDE)?
NDEs Absolutely, Positively NOT Caused By Malfunctioning Brains
While many skeptics continue to suggest that malfunctioning brains produce near-death experiences, the evidence is now overwhelming that this is not the case
“After decades of concerted effort on the part of neuroscientists, psychologists, and philosophers, only one proposition about how the brain makes us conscious — how it gives rise to sensation, feeling, subjectivity — has emerged unchallenged: We don’t have a clue!”
— Alva Noë, Professor of Philosophy at the University of California, Berkeley
The most reasonable neuroscientific explanation of NDEs, the one that accounts best for all the data, is that NDEs are not a product of brain activity at all
They result, instead, from the removal of the brain’s filtering activity
In fact, some NDErs spontaneously use the filter metaphor to describe feeling free from their brains during an NDE
The brain filters out everything and doesn’t help our thinking, but hinders it, slows it down
While clinically dead, a person witnesses events, sometimes in distant locations, that are later confirmed to be true
Groups of dying people share the same NDE
People born blind can see during an NDE
People with large portions of their brains missing can still be fully functional
People that have been clinically dead FOR DAYS return to life with stories of the other side
NDE memories are more real and remembered more accurately than ordinary memories
Atheists and materialists abandon materialistic world views when they personally encounter spiritual realities
it has been verified that an NDEr accurately perceived an event that occurred precisely during the period when the NDEr’s heart was stopped and normal brain function had ceased
Out-of-body experiences support the reality of spiritual, otherworldly domains
An 82-year-old man had an NDE in which he floated out of his body in the hospital trauma room. From a position up above the goings-on there, he saw a quarter sitting on the right-hand corner of the eight-foot-high cardiac monitor, a quarter dating from the year 1985. After he was resuscitated, he asked Lerma to go and check whether the quarter was really there, so he could know whether his very affecting spiritual experience was real. Lerma took a ladder and climbed up to look, and there indeed was the 1985 quarter, just as the patient had seen it
A patient described having an NDE in which she was pulled upward through the floors of the hospital until she came up out of the roof. From there, she noticed a red shoe lying on the roof. A skeptical physician later went onto the roof to check and indeed discovered the red shoe she’d described
During cardiac arrest, the brain activity of the cortex is shut down within an average of about 15 seconds to such an extent that, according to materialists, no complex conscious experiencing can occur after this point
Survival of consciousness after brain shutdown has now been proven by a four-year international study of 2,060 cardiac arrest cases across 15 hospitals around the world
50 percent of individuals who experienced an NDE mentioned an awareness of being dead
Some observers claim that NDEs display a rift in current neuroscientific theory, and that the experience shows another, more esoteric facet to our existence
OBEs are commonly a part of NDEs and sometimes include autoscopy – seeing one’s body from above
40% of cardiac arrest survivors interviewed described “awareness” during the time they were clinically dead and no brain function was possible
86% of these patients recalled having heightened cognitive function: increased speed, logical reasoning, and clarity of thought; overall visual and auditory clarity
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the current scientific consensus rejects any notion of soul or spirit as separate from the activity of the brain
I don't give a crap, is that supposed to serve a purpose? maybe for you because you're used to being spoon fed BS that confirms your materialistic worldview which you can't defend by arguing. That's for you, I'm not that easy.
You, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules.
Is this the sort of conjecture that convinces you lol? I bet that guy could say anything and you'd believe it, huh?
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Uh ohhh, let's see if the resident zombie has another quote of someone who might know something!
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ALL embodiments are channels for consciousness to have experience through, the brain is the conduit that controls the output of consciousness and what that vessel is capable of. Brains are nothing but devices that isolate consciousness to form. It is the very same usage of how any electrical component harnesses, uses and controls electrical output. Brains control and conduct conscious current and reduces its experience to whatever form it occupies.
If your soul was placed into an insects body, your conscious perceptions would be inhibited by that brain and embodiment. You would not be able to function as a human but as an insect. That's because that form would control your level of awareness and abilities.
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What the brain washed, zero intellect dumb butt doesn't realize is that I'm aware that all life forms have consciousness (including insects), that's what makes them animated and aware, but it's not their brain that makes it so, their brain simply controls/restricts their output. Every source of consciousness that is confined to form is subject to the anatomy of their embodiment and size of brain, that determines what they exhibit and how they function. Like FLRW's small brain size reflects his intelligence it is also reflected in insects being the amount of intelligence it can display depending on what the brain's output is.
Why does the dummy think that I'm not aware that insects have consciousness lol? according to all the papers he reads no wonder he can't think for himself.
according to a new paper that might show us how our own began
LOL, well I can't say your intelligence exceeds that of an insect, you might have a point.
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Something physical might be able to explain the phenomena of near death experiences
Get it guys? you materialists should get a clue that these other guys are just playing guessing games. They really have no clue, more than that they confirm what you guys call confirmation bias, which in this case just means finding excuses why people's souls leave their body at death and trying to insert a material reason to make it appear it's all due to brain activity, because that's what they already believe.
Is this really what you want? the question is why? I can give you very simplistic and logical explanations why brains read activity without resorting to stupidity, and here we have direct evidence through normal people's testimonies of what happens when the physical body shuts down. Spirituality has provided the answers, real life experiences have provided very clear evidence, the question remains why are there so many skeptics when we such obvious answers? have people really become so detached from who they really are they resort to jumping through all kinds of silly hoops to avoid the truth?
Brains don't create consciousness guys, it's not possible, sorry. Any real honest expert (so-called) will probably admit that such assumptions are ultimately not conclusive, yet the same beliefs are accepted as fact, what a shame and what a scam.
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Discussing anything with Brother D!@$ Head is like rubbing yourself with poison ivy, the question is......why the hell would you even do it lol? you know if you do you will just end up irritating yourself with a useless effort, in the process making yourself look really dumb for even trying. Most likely, your just engaging an atheistic idiot pretending to be some "real Christian" just to mock believers. It's hilarious anybody even entertains this quack. He should be put on mute through simply ignoring him and then hopefully he goes away making more room for valid members to join in.
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at least in the brains of rats
lol
a sudden surge of electrical activity that continues for roughly 30 seconds after clinical death.
So what? did you know that NDE's occur long after 30 seconds?? but you don't care do you ding dong? all you care about is quoting dummies that have no idea why brains reflect neural activity lol.
generate neural correlates of heightened conscious processing at near-death.
All this would suggest is that the soul has produced a heightened sense of conscious awareness because it realizes it's dying, you could probably correlate that with adrenaline surges. So what? the level of awareness present because of the soul will be reflected in its readings of the brain.
we were surprised by the high levels,
Why? seems pretty obvious. Then again, these guys appear pretty stupid at times.
suggesting that the brain is capable of well-organized electrical activity
This is true for any electrical component that conducts electricity, I've been saying this for a while now. As long as a soul occupies the physical body the brain will read activity. This is due to the energetic presence of the soul and the brain which is responsible for isolating the souls experience to that body.
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@ludofl3x
And, you may not even know what evidence means.
based on the available evidence.
Here let me help you out.....
EVIDENCE-
"the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."
"an outward sign : INDICATION"
"something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY"
"A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment:"
"Something indicative; an indication or set of indications:"
"The means by which an allegation may be proven, such as oral testimony, documents, or physical objects."
TESTIMONY-
"evidence or proof provided by the existence or appearance of something.
"Evidence in support of a fact or assertion; proof."
"a declaration of truth or fact"
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@ludofl3x
No, it's my conclusion based on the available evidence.
What evidence has convinced you of your position? demonstrate it Mr. Demonstrate...
Present more evidence and I'll gladly change my position.
Evidence for what? NDE's are a great example of evidence demonstrating that the soul exists independent of the physical body. You can't give me any reason why a soul can travel outside of their body when they die without making up some tripe.
You won't accept any evidence is the problem. And, you may not even know what evidence means.
"Spiritual concepts" do not as presented constitute a representation of reality.
Why not? what is a body of knowledge used for?
They are just concepts.
And if it exists? what are they then?
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@ludofl3x
there's nothing in your arguments other than your imagination.
Well that's your conjecture
You say you're trying to add detail to these concepts, that doesn't make them any more realistic or true
You don't know what's realistic or true, that's obvious.
it's bizarre
I don't know what's been said that's bizarre, but you are always entitled to your own bizarre opinions. I've been discussing basic spiritual concepts. Much of what I say has already been presented for a long time.
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@ludofl3x
Ok, so I don't know why meditation is considered any of that.
I know you don't know why, that's partly because of your own beliefs. You do know that meditation has been practiced by spiritual minded people for thousands of years right? ever heard of Buddhists or Hindus lol?
When I meditate it's not to get beyond physical pboundaries,
Well unbeknownst to you, you are. Because your conscious soul exists independent of the physical body, when you pull your attention beyond your immediate physical body to your inner being or soul, or conscious self you are reaching to that part of you that exists beyond physical boundaries. But because of the below, your practice will always be limited and shaded by your own beliefs.
whatever that means in real life, and I don't know what "spiritual level" means vis a vis meditation, sorry. I do it because it's a way to enjoy the quiet, focus my thoughts.
"but then again it might be limited by your ideas of the world."
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@ludofl3x
How am I mocking you by asking how can I tell if you're telling the truth?
It's your attitude, I mean do you think I'm stupid? I've seen enough of your posts to get where you are coming from and what kind of individual you are.
And why are you yelling at PW?
Was I?
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@ludofl3x
I believe in meditation, I just don't understand what you mean by 'spiritual practice.'
Spiritual is simply a term we use to define that which extends beyond the physical boundaries, meditation for example, is a tool that can be used to pull your attention in that direction. So it's considered a spiritual practice, but then again it might be limited by your ideas of the world.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Ludo doesn't get it, he doesn't understand that these topics can't be "demonstrated" but he's also a prick and is just here to mock people. That kind of thing is fun for pricks.
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@Polytheist-Witch
then why can't you demonstrate it?
This is the religion forum where we are discussing spiritual concepts, basic ones at that I'm just expanding on them to give you a better idea of how it works and comes together instead of just saying "hey, you have soul" I'm willing to go much deeper into the subject. Rather than just feed you some religious dogma I'm here to give you the mechanics of how things operate. But these are spiritual based concepts, even though they are actual, it's not things I can harness or duplicate. This isn't science class or a chemistry set were I can demonstrate some material experimentation for you. Maybe if you don't want to consider information related to your soul you shouldn't be poking your nose around here?
I'm struggling to think of anything that I know to be true, that CANNOT be demonstrated.
Well then, it should be fairly simple for you to give me a few examples? how do you plan on demonstrating something for me....
Great! Let's see the application and your documented observations.
Well at least you know you are a prick.
I'm sorry, anecdotal evidence from a TV show does not make for compelling evidence.
Well it's partly because you're a prick and you probably believe peoples observations aren't worth hearing. However, as I said the show doesn't just cover anecdotes, it gives you the corresponding medical facts beside them, these are people that have been hospitalized. Doctor testimonies and documented time frames of how long they were dead.
You said NDE's only happen after the brain shuts down, and you haven't said how you know that. Empirically, there can't be brain activity to detect if the brain shuts off
These are people who have flatlined and show no signs of activity which indicates they were alive, ya know... EKG tests and all the little devices they read when they declare your azz clinically dead.
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@ludofl3x
If you wish to stop being a stubborn jerk, I would suggest checking out some episodes of the link I left for you, maybe watch episode 4 from season 1. It will give you a good idea of what you will also experience one day. Maybe you will think back to yourself when that day comes and remember that dude from that debate site actually knew what he was talking about lol. "What a douche I was to fluff off what he had to say, what a pompous prick I was to demand he demonstrate something in order than I consider it".
Just so you know I've put in the time, application and observations to present what I know to be the most accurate path to knowledge I can offer you. I'm not just some hillbilly playing games here, I take this very seriously.
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@ludofl3x
You can label it whatever you want, you can decide to read the rest of the post or not. I don't know what you mean by "demonstrate", all I can offer you is the truth by writing to you information you should consider. You do realize your ideas about consciousness and your materialistic worldview are also conjecture?? then who are you to avoid anything I have to say? honestly I don't really enjoy conversing with you anyways, you're kind of a prick. In reality it doesn't matter if you take what I say or leave it, it will be demonstrated to you when you leave the physical body anyways. I'm just trying to create a path of knowledge for you.
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@ludofl3x
@n8nrgmi
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