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@janesix
Great post and very interesting, thanks for the insights.
I still look for the nuts and bolts of how everything "works"
Unfortunately it's usually assumed that this conflicts with Theism but really it doesn't. There's nothing about wanting to understand all the mechanics of the universe that is contradicting to believing in a Creator. That's just my opinion though because I'm interested in the same things and I've never been an atheist.
The one thing I do know is that nobody knows what the F is going on.
I can see why you would believe that, especially with such a vast array of information and seemingly contradicting religious sources and a method of study limited to just the material aspect of things but it's not really that complicated and there's been a lot of intelligent beings that have highlighted factual bits of knowledge. Once the pieces are all sorted out and put in the correct spaces we have pretty clear picture. You just need someone who can put all the pieces in the correct order or maybe you configure it yourself.
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@zedvictor4
We could ask questions until we were all blue in the face
If this is not an interesting subject matter for you maybe you shouldn't be here?
and never get a factual reply
As long as you assume facts can't be obtained I guess you'll never know.
I guess if you go to a Doctor to get your problems diagnosed you'll never know if their diagnoses are factual?
How does a Doctor begin to gain understanding and knowledge of your human body that they may diagnose it?
Through source material and the study of a body of work that correlates with that subject...
How does a Doctor become someone who you can rely on for a factual diagnoses?
Through a rigorous process of applying that body of work and research to real life.
How does a Doctor become someone you would rely on more than any other Doctor?
Through years of study, application, practice with years of hands on experience and observations culminating in a wealth of wisdom and becoming a Master of their trade.
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@ludofl3x
Which theist on this board do you find yourself disagreeing MOST with?
Well there's not much to pick from lol, they are mostly fundamental Christians or Catholics with a couple of "outsiders" here and there. I'm not really one who judges what people choose to embrace as their beliefs and how they see best expresses their feelings about God. I wish we had a lot more of a variety, I'd love to see some eastern religious thought around here, and certainly some Native American spirituality. But I would have to say Mopac, mostly due to his constant pointing fingers at other Theists, whining about protestants all the time and how other believers are heretics and all that bull crap. Those are my least favorite types of Theists because they sow so much discord.
Catholicism (Roman or Orthodox) just happens to be my least favorite faction of Christianity as well so it doesn't surprise me the guy I disagree with most fits in that category, to me Catholicism is just distorted nonsense and is unrecognizable to the Gospels of Jesus and His teachings. Ironically they always parade themselves as the only body of Christ and their teachings are the only authority when in reality it couldn't be any further from the truth.
This is not meant to be construed as an insult, I'm just answering your question. If I have a problem with a poster I would just confront them directly as I have in the past. Generally speaking I have no issues with people who happen to be Catholic.
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@Mharman
Sum1hugme please, I feel as if I'm all alone here!
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@FLRW
Religious people are less intelligent on average than atheists
What does that have to do with whether or not God exists? did you read through the OP?
because faith is an instinct and clever people are better at rising above their instincts
If stupid people think they are clever enough to rise above their intuition and instincts perhaps they are not fit for their environments. Even animals aren't that inept.
found religious people to have lower average intelligence than people who do not believe in a god
What does that say about you, you appear to have a very low level of intelligence, actually you do a very good job at lending support for my topics lol.
and intelligence the ability to rise above one's instincts
You realize this statement is nonsensical right? or do you?
A negative correlation between intelligence and religion
If every Theist in the world were stupid it would be completely irrelevant in justifying your own worldview.
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I'm only in this because I have a passion for you guys, that's it. I mean I love the exchanges to be open to learning new things and different perspectives but believe me when I say I deeply care and have no ill will towards atheists. Quite the contrary.
I don't get to express that very often because one, it sounds stupid and two I'm usually defending myself from a position of being treated as inferior because of my beliefs per say. But to be perfectly open, transparent and honest I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the atheist.
I love my fellow believer but I've spent plenty of time with them in real life lol, that's not my main interest here.
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Atheists, why is it you feel that Theism as a proposition to be something you perceive as absurd or ridiculous? the reactions and comments through all the years I've been involved in these discussions basically tell me that creation as a philosophical option is regarded by atheists as something that is unintelligent (stupidity), influenced primarily through indoctrination (and wishful thinking) or the results of mental issues (that's my fav lol)...
I'd like to know what is so superior about interpreting the universe as a product of matter rather than a product of intelligent work, I mean it simply comes down to what is more obvious to the person's estimations. Maybe Theism isn't that absurd, unintelligent or just the products of wishful thinking? The topics I've created recently serve to provide some decent guidelines of how the universe is interpreted as a product of God without the need for stupidity, indoctrination and wishing things to be the case.
Even "if" Theists were indoctrinated, stupid and or mentally ill none of those factors justifies the rejection of Theism as a strong proposition. Are religions and their assessments and rules stupid? it's possible I suppose but......it is completely irrelevant to whether or not God exists, so what's with the negative attitude towards it? why be so adamant about something that could have some good reasons to consider? possibilities (logical possibilities) should always be looked into as worthy to be considered. It's almost as if atheists have been programed/brainwashed to automatically assume anything related to God is just nonsense, and to me this seems to foster close-mindedness to the point where any other options are just off the table if it doesn't coddle materialism or anti-theism.
And TBH there are only two options! and interpreting the universe as matter being the fundamental substance of the universe is not that intelligent, not that thought provoking and not that superior. IMO it doesn't take much thought or consideration to adopt such a worldview so it makes me wonder how such a mindset that anything related to Theism is just inferior.
Maybe nobody will admit to that but that is my assessment and no, this does not include all atheists but it's a general observation. All you have to do is follow any topic in this religious forum and you see anger, sarcasm, mocking, pride, smug comments, contention, rudeness, vulgar attitudes, hatred, close-mindedness all directed at topics related to God or anything of the like.
Now to be fair to atheists I am well aware of how you've been treated, at least in the past but theists of all kinds have also been persecuted so that doesn't just apply to atheists. I'm not stupid, I'm well informed of how snot-nosed religious people are prone to condemn unbelievers and anyone that doesn't support their special ideas of the world. I'm sick of that too, but at some point we all need to move past that and be open-minded of each others knowledge. In todays world, it's not so much the case where any of you atheists are being ridiculed or persecuted and actually it seems to be more the case that Theists are ridiculed especially in what seems to be a majority of a secular environment.
If we get past the immaturity and mistakes of humans and look squarely at the only two opposing propositions being offered, or that are available, then it would make this a much more approachable subject. Being stupid from either side of the coin does not effect the reality of either premise, so there should never be any presumptuous attitudes towards people that become an obstacle of considering either view.
Why do I even care what you think? well it doesn't really matter in terms of who you are as a person or how you lead your own life. I really only care because I'd rather you see the truth behind the universe and what the implications are for you as a soul. I know that when your physical body dies you'll be present within the next experience and so I know that you could have been apart of something much greater than what you thought was possible, or at minimum aware of it and prepared for it. You could have used your time here to extend your relations beyond what you thought were the limits of what you assumed exists. This does not condemn you in any way though, this is not about judging or condemnation but purely about my desire that all souls know how beautiful creation is and how dynamic the Creator is and how that could relate to you personally.
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@janesix
Athias is a good person to get with, he seems to have put a lot of time and effort into researching this sort of behavior. So I would consider what he might have to say about it.
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@janesix
Why are secret societies, like the masons, rosicrutians etc secret? They are supposedly modern mystery schools, and the ancient mystery schools were secret as well. What's the secret, and why are they hiding? I can understand that during the middle ages that they had to hide things from the church, but before and after that?
It's always the case where the self proclaimed "elite" have access to information, powers or motives that no one else should except for those who believe they are equipped to handle it or capable of carrying out the intent. Secret societies and groups are basically like little clubs on larger scales. Remember as kids there would be some brat that would start a club and try and keep all outsiders from gaining access to it lol? it's the same premise really where some brat or brats have access to something or have special interests and then tries to keep it only accessible to the "privileged" or some bull like that. You'll usually see some type of silly initiation, rituals or ceremony involved with those permitted to belong. And the more secretive the source the more bizarre the initiations and rituals.
Then there are societies or powers that are open to the public but have inner hierarchies within the organizations that are kept secret from the majority eye. In any case it most likely signals someone's up to no good.
This is more of a mentality and ones that mostly have ulterior motives so it's nothing really rational, reasonable or ethical so asking "why" might not get you very far. I mean there may be situations where this type of mentality could prove to be reasonable but usually secrets play out to have negative consequences.
What's the deal?
There are many factors involved so it's not that simplistic to answer depending on whom we're discussing. Remembering that forces and authorities extend beyond the immediate physical realm and that they have real influence over this world is something to consider. They of course have motives, interests and intentions so it's not always easy to uncover.
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@ludofl3x
Great, so what exactly can you prove to someone other than yourself?
The objective here is not to prove anything but to show that there are answers available and they may help in assisting someone make their own assessments, draw their own conclusions from the information supplied.
Which religions are definitely WRONG?
One's in which would have any negative impact on it's people, culture, land or nature. Religions are mans expressions towards the Creator and they help create a means of collective purpose and cultural belonging they really have no basis in what's deemed right or wrong until such beliefs perpetuate negative outcomes.
Each religion may have both useful information and information not so useful. They may reflect reality accurately or inaccurately or both depending on what information is being conveyed.
Not all religions are right and not all wrong it depends on their levels of observations/revelations whether or not they reflect any truth.
People have needs both individually as well as collectively and you can see people's passion across the world in relation to their ancestral backgrounds and their patronage to their lands and religious beliefs. God knows this, and so God accommodates this and their experiences extend beyond this physical world. The Native Americans seem to have a good understanding of this and it is reflected in their spiritual beliefs. This makes creation much more exciting and interesting and people should learn that variance is not a negative thing but a beautiful aspect of creation and God's creative desires.
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@gugigor
what do you think God would say about the following moral theories?
The Creator doesn't give a pimple's puss about people's "beliefs" or religions regarding what is morally acceptable and ethical in God's created worlds. Lets get that straight from the get go, they have nothin to do with morality unless of course the beliefs themselves aspire harm on nature or people. Creation is driven by cause and effect laws both for the natural world and also less observable...the moral experience. Moral laws have nothing to do with people's preferences or what they accept as their beliefs or cultural traditions as long as each individual acts within the constructs provided for them, and even if they don't they are held accountable by their own actions in the form of their future experiences.
So all people's are under the same laws of cause and effect regardless of their lifestyles, political backgrounds or preferred method of honoring the Creator.
As long as the following hold up under the principles of negative and positive there should be no issues.
The universal laws of cause and effect are based upon the impact of a persons thoughts, intentions and of course their actions. And while most ethical propositions might not deal with intentions or thoughts the laws of God's creation indeed reach that far.
Kantian ethics
"Kant's construction of the moral law is the categorical imperative, which acts on all people, regardless of their interests or desires."
"bound to the moral law by their own will"
"His principle of universalizability requires that, for an action to be permissible, it must be possible to apply it to all people without a contradiction occurring."
This seems to fit fine within the parameters set above!
Utilitarianism
"the doctrine that actions are right if they are useful or for the benefit of a majority."
"the doctrine that an action is right insofar as it promotes happiness, and that the greatest happiness of the greatest number should be the guiding principle of conduct."
"a doctrine that the useful is the good and that the determining consideration of right conduct should be the usefulness of its consequences"
Nothing wrong about this concept! this is a universally acceptable principle...
Contractarianism
This one is a bit irrelevant and vague to be considered as anything significant. What cultures and political movements decide what to do within their boundaries are theirs to decide, but again if what is determined has any negative impact on one's environment or culture (people) the same universal laws apply, so it is essential for any governing authorities to remain wise and smart about what they enforce otherwise they reap the consequences.
For example, if any authoritative figure imposed ethics or laws that inflict a negative outcome on its people or land the consequences of their actions will be much greater. When a persons actions or intentions effect numerous people the return for that person is much more severe so in essence, the consequences reflect what was perpetrated, the outcome correlates with the type of crimes against humanity were inflicted.
Virtue ethics
"Virtue ethics are normative ethical theories which emphasize virtues of mind, character and sense of honesty. Virtue ethicists discuss the nature and definition of virtues and other related problems that focus on the consequences of action. These include how virtues are acquired, how they are applied in various life contexts, and whether they are rooted in a universal human nature or in a plurality of cultures"
Again this is in line with universal laws and principles, very useful models IMO!
All in all these seem to be well thought out and I see no harm in relation to God's overarching policies.
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@ludofl3x
you're just a guy with a sandwich board harassing passers by with "the end is nigh!"
Lol no one has forced you to be here. I'm just here trying to present something different and interesting to break up the monotony you don't have to be an azz.
I've paid my dues as a believer, I've submitted to just about any teaching you can find on spirituality and have applied it to myself. I have no biases towards any sources of knowledge, I consider scientific sources the same as any fanatic as well. I've learned, applied, observed, studied, experienced and put in endless hours thinking and sifting through information to be able to relay God's knowledge about creation efficiently and accurately. I don't peddle or proselytize religion, rather I give them all a fair shot by studying as much as I can so I have no agenda or ulterior motives to convert anyone to anything other than to at least consider the existence of God as a real thing. This of course doesn't mean I know everything but it does mean I know quite a bit and I've never seen a question that I haven't seriously thought about and applied all my knowledge to to solve the issue.
I'm not indoctrinated, mentally ill, biased, or a wishful thinker. I don't personally care about what I want or what anybody else claims when it comes to understanding what is most likely true or simply true. My conclusions are based upon my own observations and experience of the world...logic, commonsense, good rationale, evidence, cross referencing and I've considered every side of the equations. Needless to say I qualify as someone to be trusted and considered. If anything it's good to have someone who can answer questions unbiased and from a wide range of information and facts.
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@ludofl3x
Why should anyone believe what you say on this topic?
They're not required to obviously. But "if" I know something someone may have not known or have no way of knowing now would be a good time to ask anything they'd like. Is there any reason not to consider my answers?
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Is this the best you guys got? I find the existence of God to be one of the most fascinating questions one could ponder! the implications of course are infinite, if I were an unbeliever or even a Theist who's views of God were restricted to a very limited source and someone was taking questions about God of any kind I would be all over it.
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@gugigor
So I ask the same question, if God exists, what do you think of Neitzsche's
"Nietzsche’s claim, however, is that “God” is a fiction created by human beings. Thus, God “dies” when there is no good reason to believe that God exists. "
Nonsensical, irrelevant.
According to Nietzsche, the idea of God was created to help people handle widespread and seemingly senseless suffering.
Presumptuous
From antiquity to today most people turn to God when awful tragedies happen
Boring
God is a psychological fabrication created to soothe distress, ease trauma, and provide companionship in the face of suffering.
LOL, oh....and generic?
Now that we have affirmed that Nietzsche begins with the assumption that God is fiction, let me know if you have any unique questions regarding the existence of God, the soul or anything related. Thanks.
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@gugigor
what do you think of Neitzsche's famous passage "God is dead"?
Presumptuous, boring and unprovable. Oh....and generic. More over it makes no sense, it is a nonsensical statement. God either exists or does not exist, if God does indeed exist there's no such thing as death. Death is only relevant to created bodies.
Now back to the topic, assuming God does exist, what questions would you have pertaining to that?
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Get creative guys, lets see some unique and interesting questions! If God and the soul exists, imagine the implications of that.....we haven't even dug deep yet.
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@Athias
I'm glad you commented on this
It renders that "we are the universe, and the universe is us,"
Wow, that's interesting, Do you have any thoughts about that in particular?
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@janesix
Does it have to be one or the other? Or is it just my wishful thinking, that there could be a reality where both are involved?
No it is both. It's not one or the other you have your own will within a reality and environment where your weaknesses are exposed and tested. You're almost like a free agent that's been placed within a simulated maze so to speak. While you're working your way through the maze you're also creating bits of your own world, future experiences and such. Though you have been placed within a maze your interactions within that set are completely your own to choose.
So fate is real. It has to be. But I don't understand why there is spiritual growth supposedly happening. And it often involves my personal decisions, morality etc. Things that involve free will and choice, choosing between good and evil etc.
There's a few factors involved that are the reasons for your experiences here. But fate is not tied to your will, it's tied to your environment. There's also an objective component related to your spiritual journey, you're learning about your true self while at the same time improving yourself so you can move along to better worlds and more elevated experiences.
The choices you make "in the now"...in the present tense are what dictate your future experiences (own will) and your past decisions and desires are what you are experiencing right now (fate).
Like I could have a seemingly meaningless synchronicity, and a year or two later, I have another that ties into the one I had a long time ago.
Your dreams and the "universe" will appear to be getting your attention on certain things that will be beneficial for you whether or not you know it at the time. Of course there will be those who tell you the "brain is hardwired to detect patterns" but it's completely irrelevant BS, you're just noticing it more than others. Some people are completely oblivious to it.
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@ludofl3x
So, then this version of god isn't omniscient and didn't know how it would "affect physiology" beforehand?
Correct, God can know what is knowable but God tests creation when outcomes are not yet knowable. I don't care about this "omniscient" baloney, that's not my argument. God is a maximal Being and knows all that is knowable, and the Creator is the epitome of all accumulated knowledge. These terms humans create don't always reflect what is true.
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@FLRW
Psychologists have always been fascinated as to why some people believe in a higher being
A secular psychologist would, and their confirmation bias would be reflected in their studies.
while others are happy to accept that we are alone in life
And these are people that have no damage to the brain I assume lol?
Now researchers claim
They can claim til they die, no one cares about their speculations except for drones like you...when their soul exits the physical body then they will know for sure.
a region of the brain that, when damaged, may
And for those who believe in a Higher Being who have no damage? This correlation you keep spouting is useless because it's completely irrelevant to whether or not God exists. I don't personally care what people believe who "may" have damaged brain.
If you're never going to contribute anything useful for my topics you might as well go play in another part of the forum.
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@zedvictor4
So why did God create dinosaurs?
Creativity, testing the environment and how it would affect physiology.
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@FLRW
You just go ahead and vent all the things you've been led to believe my dear Flower, get it all out pal.
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@n8nrgmi
what is the purpose of human life?
To experience life on this planet, within creation. That might seem like an obvious answer but its that simple. We are here for the experience...Each soul (which inhabits human bodies) will have many experiences here and in other parts of creation and so each soul is on a very long journey through many, many experiences. Along the way each soul begins to learn about itself, improve itself through various cause and effect consequential situations and eventually come to learn who they really are and where they originate.
God exists in an alone state, and so God knows that as conscious beings (souls) it is good for us to have opportunity to express what it is we desire within worlds God creates for us. God also has access to each soul, and God can observe everything you observe and experience. The investment God has in this is that God can have more than one observation point, giving God also opportunity to experience something other than existing in a singular state of existence.
Don't fool yourself though and think that this one planet is all we got lol, that's not even close to the truth. This is only one temporary experience out of endless places to exist, this is where parallel planes of existence come into play. When you leave the physical body that's when the fun really starts.
And this is all just for you and I to have virtually endless experiences. Each souls journey is much different than others and so each experience is tailored for each soul.
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@zedvictor4
Did GOD get rid of dinosaurs for a reason?
So that the human species could inherit the Earth. Humans and T-Rex's don't do too well together, for obvious reasons.
Were they sinners, big time?
Lol
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@Sum1hugme
What do you mean by the words "ultimate reality."
That's not terminology I personally use often but it kinda speaks for itself. In a nutshell it's reality as it exists independent of our personal perceptions, or our individual experiences of reality. You could label God the Ultimate Reality, because again, that would describe Reality as it exists independent of anyone's personal reality. God is not limited in any way like the way things that exist within creation are, God observes everything from an ultimate perspective, an infinite and eternal view.....a wholistic observation if you will. God is aware and present within all things at all times and so the whole of reality is absorbed by God.
So the term "ultimate" reality is meant as a contrast in comparison to our "little" reality as we observe it.
Here's another religious source that uses the same terminology, maybe this will be more helpful.....
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@Tradesecret
This term explains more along the lines of what I believe, it's not a religion for me per say but articulates what I believe is most accurate about the world. This seems to coincide more with reality and spiritual phenomenon as a whole, and so its a universal worldview.
Spiritism-
"the nature, origin, and destiny of spirits, and their relation with the corporeal world".
"Spiritist philosophy postulates that humans, along with all other living beings, are essentially immortal spirits that temporarily inhabit physical bodies for several necessary incarnations to attain moral and intellectual improvement. It also asserts that disembodied spirits, through passive or active mediumship, may have beneficent or malevolent influence on the physical world."
Personally I don't see this as being distinct from Christianity but that's just my take on it. But I'm also an Omnist in regards to religion so I have more of a wholistic approach to the subject.
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@Tradesecret
Interesting thoughts, thank you.
Yes sir.
Yet I don't concur completely . The story of Genesis indicates that God breathed in human body - and that this then became a living soul. Hence - both body and life or consciousness together constitutes a soul.
Yes you will have to understand my answers aren't limited to what the Bible says, that's not the intent I'm aiming for. I've been a Christian since I was a young man so I can certainly relay only Christian theology but again. that's not my main concern.
One of the things we probably will disagree on is that I believe much of Genesis is figurative and symbolic. So I would have to argue that God did not create man from dirt or breath in a human body and it became a living soul.
Being made from the dust of the ground is analogous to us being made from the same elements as every other created thing....it's a lot like atheists saying "we are made of star dust"...
God breathing into human form animating it just means we have Gods living qualities within us that are innate to us. We know how human bodies are made and they aren't made with dust lol.
Eve being created with Adams ribs is a figurative event meaning women and men fit together, they were created as a pair, they were meant for each other. We know that girls aren't made from the ribs of boys, it's a figurative statement.
The soul exists independent of the physical body, the soul came out of God before it was sent into creation. So in other words you existed within God before you existed within the physical body prepared for you by your parents. The soul (your inner being) is a separate reality from a physical body, the body is simply the vessel for the soul.
The physical body has nothing to do with consciousness, consciousness belongs only to the soul. The brain does not create consciousness, it is a component that confines the souls experience to a physical body. So the body has no relevance to a soul other than providing a vehicle to navigate the physical world. The body is how we interface with the material world, but when the body dies the soul leaves that body.
I'm not going to argue over what the Bible says unless I have something useful for you to consider about it, I know what it says because I've been reading on my own accord since I was a young kid. But as I said my answers will not be dependent on that alone so you will have to be patient with that.
I'm going to be as short as possible here with my replies so if I fail to elaborate just ask me about anything.
Still - there is an aspect of what you say that is compatible with the OT. It certainly often uses interchangeably the heart, or the kidneys, or intestines with the word soul. I would take the view that spirit and soul are the same.
A lot of what I will say will be compatible with the Bible because the Bible has some good useful information, but what I write will not be limited to the Bible.
The soul and spirit can be used interchangeably but a "spirit" body is distinct from the soul itself...this is where religion sort of mixes things up. They believe that the spirit body is the soul but that is not so...The spirit body, is also known as the subtle body (look up that term) and this is the form you are present within when you leave the physical body. It is the covering of the soul like that of the physical body which also covers the soul. The physical body confines you to the physical world and the spiritual body confines you to the spiritual worlds. Yet the soul is the part of you that is observing through those forms, the soul itself has no true form. The reason for this covering, is so that you have a point of reference within the created worlds that confine your soul to locations therein. There's a lot to this I won't touch on at this moment but if you're interested just ask about it.
The heart is often used in scripture analogous to the inner most part of yourself but again, this is figurative language....but the kidneys and intestines have no relevance to the inner soul at all lol, these are just functions of the physical body which is just a mechanical vehicle for the soul, without the soul the body is stillborn. The only thing that animates the physical form is the soul itself.
The inner person and the outer person. I suppose I take the view that the difference between the inner and outer persons is a mirage. We might not reveal our inner person to many people - yet that is still us on the outside.
Well that depends on the context I guess, if you're referring to the outer person as in the material make up of your physical image the inner person (soul) is quite distinct from that.
The inner person can also refer to the deepest aspects of a person, their thoughts, their interests, their motives, their desires, their emotions ect ect but all those things are a factor because first there is the soul. The outer physical form is but a shell.
When we are resurrected according to the Bible, we will not just be spirits or a consciousness wandering around we will have real bodies.
If you're resurrected within the physical realm again you will have real material bodies. The whole resurrected bodies/soul arising at some point in the future thing is not an accurate depiction. As soon as your body gives up, the soul is released from that body, and this can be verified by the evidence and through other religious sources. The soul doesn't remain underground while the body decomposes and then resurrects that is a misconception. Again, you have to understand that I'm not trying to follow the doctrines of what Christianity teaches unless they are ultimately true so I hope not to offend you. I certainly know what the Bible says in the passage you refer to but there are countless examples also in the Bible that spirit beings exist apart from what you call a real body.
The only loophole in favor of coinciding what I'm saying with your theology is that in order that you "resurrect" within the physical world, or earth is that your soul must have a physical vessel to interface with the material world. But buried dead bodies coming out of the ground is disturbing. Most likely you'll be given a new body and the resurrection thing is metaphorical or misunderstood. At any rate you should fully expect that your conscious being (soul) will leave the physical body at death, this is almost certain. Which BTW is a good thing, because you will be transported to the Kingdom of heaven.
This would open a whole new subject here about what the afterlife entails. Which you would probably find very interesting. But don't rely on the theory that your soul remains in the dirt until a resurrection because you will be quite surprised as the soul leaves the physical body, at least be prepared for that.
Don't think I'm being I'm contentious here, I'm just trying to explain my understanding of the subject.
Yet I am understand there is a difference for the temporal and the eternal. I note that Psalm 11 talks of God hating the wicked and the violent with his soul. Yet God does not have a body like humanity.
That's true, God doesn't "have" a soul which would depict that God carries it around with Him, rather God is a soul. The soul is the fundamental substance of what God is. The soul exists independent of physical form, and likewise our soul (that first originated with God) exists independent of material form as well.
The reason I pointed out that consciousness is synonymous with the soul is because that is the fundamental substance of what God is as well, they refer to the same thing. That may not be an orthodox way of understanding the terminology but they both express the very foundation of what God is.
If I say, hey! God is soul....you may ask what is a soul? or what is it made of...my answer is consciousness, this is the very first layer that makes up God. God is first a conscious Being, and there is no other factor or substance that precedes that and the soul is not distinct from that, it is that. Religions use words to express what it is they may not have words for, or maybe failed to fully understand what it is they are giving names to. In Hinduism and many other eastern philosophies this concept is fully articulated and understood. The soul and the conscious inner being are one and the same fundamental substance, there is no other substance.
Thanks EtrnlVw
Thanks Tradesecret! maybe we can collaborate on some of these things even though we may have some differences.
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@SkepticalOne
I appreciate the effort you put into your answers, but "how do you know" is the most important part to me. I can't reasonably consider something 'knowledge' if it can't be verified.
That's why I said it's not useful for you, because of how you will expect or presume "verification". It's not going to be something that I can demonstrate for you and have verified by science or whatever it is you feel it should be "verified" by. So I show you the value of what I'm sharing through rational thinking, logic and realistic answers that correlate with reality as we observe it. I can break it down for you how I know something to be true but there's no way for me to verify it for you in a way that you might find satisfying. As I said, it's not efficient for me to explain a complicated system of experience, observation, correlating evidence, cross referencing and many different sources of information for each answer I give. We have to have some level of trust here, and if you find the answers to be acceptable we can elaborate on them. The first step is for me to give you content you find worth considering. I don't expect you will agree with my own observations and my own process of gaining knowledge. If what I'm saying is true, it's completely irrelevant to what you are asking anyways.
I don't have single answers for how I know something to be true it's not that simple. My answers are contingent on a lifetime of experience.
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@Tradesecret
Once they admit that testimonial evidence is a real form of evidence (that which provides proof of a claim) then their baloney about there being no evidence to support Theistic propositions falls flat on its face. NDE's for example are a realistic and useful form of evidence that supports the proposition that the soul exists independent of the physical body, and there is well more than enough of them to establish that the conscious experience extends beyond the confines of the human form. Well this just happens to fall in line with tons of religious sources supplying the same informative insight about what we call a soul. Correlating evidence for a claim!
Paranormal encounters and spiritual experiences across the globe by the millions provide more than enough "evidence" that beings exist beyond the immediate physical world, which also supports religious propositions that entities exist outside the physical domain. What do ya know...correlating evidence again.
There's more evidence in the form of eye-witness first hand observations for spirituality than any other topic by a long shot. There's not even a close runner up! the fact that guys like weakeredge like to sweep it under the carpet as having no significance because they believe everyone to be either a liar or mentally ill having any affiliation or experience within the theistic spectrum is laughable. They like it the way they pretend it to be, that Theism and religion are just the products of ignorant wishful thinking dopes. That makes them feel like they have reached some height of intellectual progress lol.
Great post BTW!
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@FLRW
Does God breathe and fart? Does he get diarrhea? We are made in his image, right?
God does not suffer the consequences of having a physical body. "Made in His image" does not mean that everything we are, God is. It's not that literal, it means we have a likeness of God, and that likeness more or less refers to our inner being not our physically created bodies.
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@SkepticalOne
Ask me anything except "How do you know?", eh?
I focused on your questions that were of significance, you ask me a series of questions that take time and thought to answer and then ask "how do you know" after each question and you think that is conducive to my time? I don't have a problem with the question in general but it's your intentions that bother me. I like sincerity I don't like to play games. How I know for each inquiry is a very intricate process, as my knowledge on the subject matter extends in many directions so there is no efficient way for me to tell you how I know for everything I write. Either you find the content satisfying to your intellect or you don't, how I know is of no importance for you.
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@Tradesecret
Does God have a soul?
God IS soul. The soul is a term used to describe the nature of God...what God is. Even though it is generally not recognized as such, soul is synonymous with consciousness. At the very base layer, that is the fundamental nature of God, soul is just another terminology for the same phenomenon. Consciousness (soul) is the backdrop out of which all other things arise.
So when we refer to our conscious being (inner man), we are also referring to our soul.
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@FLRW
I know Bumba exists,
Again, what does it matter the name? I've already went over this with you...is anyone alive in there?
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@Tradesecret
Sounds like you are getting fed up with some posters who disagree with you.
Not necessarily with me, but theists in general. I think it gets in the way of useful dialogue, it also creates the illusion that the user has some advantage point. I'm just bringing up to bring awareness to the ignorance of such an assumption.
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@3RU7AL
If we can't agree to God being "living" (alive) as a universal starting point, I'm sorry but there's no chance of a successful exchange between the two of us. If you are unable to follow a basic level of logic that says if the quality of being alive is not evident then there's no relation to a "Supreme Being" then your rationale is way too far gone for me to handle. And I can handle a lot, but I can't work with sheer stupidity. Not that you're stupid, but being too skeptical can only lead to an imbalance of rational thought.
I admire your intelligence and I believe we actually agree on a lot of underlying concepts.
I appreciate that but your train of thought is just too scattered and far fetched for there to be any efficiency within our dialogue.
I ALWAYS SEEK COMMON-GROUND.
Not in a way where it's recognizable lol, I used to accept you as one of the more intellectually capable posters here but I've come to the conclusion that I can't relate to your process of thinking on any level. A good example would be the following....
I write:
"God is a conscious (living) Being"
You respond with:
Like a dog?
Is a dog a "conscious (living) Being"?
This is a ridiculous response and one that was completely unnecessary. My answer of course would be yes, like a dog but obviously we're not talking about a dog. But yes, living is living and living includes a dog. But I fail to see the relevance in it to whether or not God is to be determined as living, as opposed to inanimate. You either agree with the statement or you do not, your response was entirely unrelated and useless. This makes any upcoming engagement with you not very exciting to be nice about it. All it shows me is that there will be a lot of worthless content I have to sift through just to get you to agree with a simple premise.
If a deist were to accept the existence of a Supreme Being, "living" would follow by necessity otherwise we are no longer discussing a "Being" or an Entity but rather an inanimate object, a thing. Once we establish God as at least being alive, then we can articulate what that would entail. But since we know a dog can't create a universe your correlation there is utter garbage.
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@Dr.Franklin
One of the tactics used to convince atheists is to get them believing all theists are stupid and indoctrinated, and more than likely they have a mental illness lol....this makes them feel special like they are now "free thinkers" and gives them a sense of pride and superiority. From there the brainwashing is easy and ironically they mock the religious as being "sheep" but then they themselves become victims of the same process.
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@Dr.Franklin
Lol one of this guys problems is that he's put so much trust in people of a specific mentality and ideology. Because of that conditioning all he's capable of is to parrot what he's been led to accept. If he reads "they provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exist" (even though that's impossible) he believes it. If they tell him all Theists are the results of mental impairment he believes it, if they tell him to jump he jumps and if they say sit he sits. He's basically lost his ability to formulate his own thoughts and freedom to make his own estimations.
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@Dr.Franklin
what is your personal favorite argument for the existence of god?
I don't really find most of the traditional arguments for God very convincing, at least in the manner of converting someone. None of them really satisfy my personal intellect TBH...I tend to just use my own logic, rationale, experience and observations of the universe to get people considering something they may not have thought about. Since I'm not anti-science or held down to some fundamental religious ideology I feel free to just put all the pieces together from a myriad of sources as they make sense to my rational mind as long as it aligns with reality. So my approach is a bit unorthodox.
I know God exists, so it's simply a matter of being capable of articulating what is true about that objectivity.
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@janesix
What does this ACTUALLY mean, in literal terms?
The most well explained general meaning I could find would be this....."In essence, the expression looks at any place there is a duality, one where half of the duality is deemed “above” while the other half is deemed “below,” and tries to establish a relation between the two."
While the originator of this phrase may have had a specific meaning the phrase itself can have many interpretations because the meaning of it can be applied to various context. The same way in which we use the same catch phrases which can be applied to endless situations.
So a lot of it depends on who's using the phrase to understand what exactly they might be referring to. For example an occultist or a witch of some sorts might be using the phrase as a way of undermining traditional Christian thought. Or it could even be interpreted in the way the Bible states "on earth, as it is in heaven"....A "new ager" might be using it to express all things are ultimately of one origin or expressing a singularity or maybe someone might be trying to say there is reason for all things and so on. So really you have to know the objective of the user.
This has popped up frequently in my synchronicities. Mostly in the form of, that the outside is a reflection of the inside. A while back, I was pretty paranoid that the outside world was LITERALLY a reflection of my inner world, the turmoil, the changing sociopolitical environment (not just the US, but the whole world.)
You can get caught up in a social network or social consciousness if you're not careful. This is where things get weird, this is why you have to be watchful and learn to subdue the mind, the thoughts and the emotions because many times we are being affected by things external to ourselves unknowingly. Powers that be are aware of this factor and use social consciousness as a means to manipulate, influence and control this world in certain directions and it works real well on those who are primarily focused on superficiality and the immediate physical perception. Ironically those being controlled mock outsiders and those who think outside the box and then are deemed stupid, mentally ill, crazy ect ect and they become categorized as outcasts and shunned so that the manipulation may prevail. It happens all the time, you see society being controlled by forces of political, religious and societal trends and then someone comes along and challenges that consciousness and they are targeted, ridiculed and even killed.
This took place in the time of Jesus on a massive scale, where Jesus challenged the authorities that were in control of that part of the world and he was murdered. His message got through because ultimately even though Jesus' message has been deliberately tainted He still managed to alter the face of religion and that power was eventually brought down. Unfortunately it wasn't long before the next power came in and took control, while distorting the same image that came to usher in freedom and the light of God.
Didn't mean to ramble sorry, you just got me thinking about some things. But yeah I get where you're coming from, just be careful and learn to detach yourself from what could be trying to control your output and experiences, your inner peace. Even though you are very much apart of the sociopolitical movement and social consciousness on one level living in this world you also have independence within your inner self/being. This is why I compare consciousness in creation with there being many channels of observation throughout radio signals. You could be thinking and even feeling things that are not even from you because you're the "receiver" so to speak of many various radio signals and frequencies of conscious activity, I know that may sound weird lol but I'm just trying to create an image for you.
It is true as you say on many levels that "the outside is a reflection of the inside" and you just want to make sure you're the watcher and the one who is in control of the conditioning, and the reflection. But if none of this resonates with you just disregard it, sometimes you bring up topics that get me thinking about other similarities!
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@FLRW
He finds that the observations of science and our naked senses not only show no evidence for God
Perception is not a fact, its an individual perspective of their interpretations.
, they provide evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that God does not exist.
Lol, good one.
A number of authors have noted that if some physical parameters were slightly changed, the universe could no longer support life, as we know it. This implies that life depends sensitively on the physics of our universe.
This in no way contradicts a theistic interpretation of our universe, it only signifies that the laws of physics are precise in ways. Maybe instead of being subjected to other atheistic pieces of literature you do your own thinking. You may be surprised how you then see the world.
In his in-depth and highly accessible discussion of this fascinating and controversial topic, the author looks at the evidence and comes to the opposite conclusion.
You sound like you're reading the back of a book.
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@janesix
Do you think it is possible to reach God without meditation, prayer, or yoga?
Those are tools to open oneself up to various conscious channels, the point being that the physical perception is just but one channel of experience. Consciousness though is not limited to one channel of observation so there are methods we can use to assist in becoming aware of other places to experience outside the immediate physical perception.
Prayer is useful for petitioning and giving while meditation is useful for listening and receiving and so both are very valuable exercises but to become aware of the Creator one simply has to absorb It not necessarily find It.
I personally don't think we have to "reach" God because God is all pervasive and always present, basically there is nowhere you can go where God is not present so the idea we have to reach for God is slightly misconstrued, we just need to become aware of that presence. Someone said the seeker of God never finds God, he's always seeking outside of himself when the answers where always within him and all around him all along and so by seeking elsewhere God always evades him. This is kinda true, we aren't always aware that we are always very much apart of God and there's nowhere to go where we are separated from that. At some point we just need not seek and just absorb God in the moment, stop thinking and just observe rather than chasing ideas and unrealistic assumptions, distorted ideals and other people's doctrines.
Don't get me wrong, I get that we can "seek and we shall find" because we need a method of penetrating deeper beyond what we believe are the limits to our observations but the objective is not to "find God" rather it is to get outside our limited views of the world. To get outside our faulty thinking and emotional turmoil. Spiritual principles are really more about getting oneself familiar with submitting our presumptions and aligning ourselves in position to receive rather than finding God somewhere. We don't need to reach God we just need to free ourselves from the burden of believing we are separate from God more than anything else. Once you become aware of that you will feel more contentment knowing you really don't have to achieve anything to reach God.
This doesn't mean you should avoid spiritual practices but I think you will find they don't really aid in making you feel any closer to God, in reality you can't get any closer to God than you are right now just as you are. If you can picture the soul as a spiritual traveler within the creation and framework of God and that all of creation is already within God, it's easy to see then that no matter where you go you were and are always within God already. You can always travel outside the physical body through practice to many places and conscious levels of experience but no matter where you are, God is still there.
So my answer to the question is yes obviously, because God is always present there is nothing you can do to make that any more real. There are things to do to remove yourself from your own limitations though, but they have nothing to do with the location of God but more to do with your own barriers to that Reality.
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@SkepticalOne
I'm going to answer the questions how you ask them but "how I know" won't be of much value to you, so you will have to be content with my answers and we can build from there. I know why you are asking how do I know, but how I know will be more of a distraction to what could be useful for you. It will also contribute in adding way more content than I'm willing to commit to in a single post, so for efficiency I'll simply answer the questions.
To get any useful insight out of this you may have to just be content that I know what I'm talking about, at least temporarily.
What is the basis of morality for "God"?
The basis of morality for God is an elusive inquiry because it's a misunderstood subject and one of not much relevance, but the basis of morality for creation is simple. With God, the concern for morality is moot because God is a singular Reality so there is no conflict of interest or opposing interactions, there's nothing to determine what is good or bad really. But for creation the basis for morality is carried out by cause and effect laws, so God is not really sitting around punishing and rewarding people for the actions they commit rather the person themselves interact within the laws of cause and effect without the need of God imposing any will.
In creation we have natural laws and then we have moral laws, both are driven by cause and effect only one deals within the forces of nature and the other deals with the intentions and actions of sentient beings.
The basis of these moral laws have nothing to do with beliefs as are projected by religious sources, but are based upon right and wrong intentions and actions instead of what someone may believe about this or that. These laws apply to both those who may be believers or those who may not be believers it matters not to the law of cause and effect. The governing factor for moral laws are..... are the actions we are committing either positive or negative to ourselves or to others and what are the intentions and motives behind our thoughts and interests and the consequences of such directly effects our future experiences one way or another.
Good intentions and deeds contribute to positive outcomes while bad intentions and deeds lead to negative outcomes, and these outcomes are not limited to time or space they can unfold in any number of ways and any number of time frame.
How long has "God" existed?
Outside (transcendent) of time and space and the ongoing movement within creation is a static fixed Reality. So actually there is no real past and future, that only applies to the appearance of matter and the measure of birth and death, in essence time is only an illusion even though we can experience it within creation. Our bodies begin and end because matter itself is subjected to birth and death but behind the physical bodies consciousness (soul) exists without time. There is no infinite paradox because God does not exist within a state of time passing. Awareness, that is the awareness of God is the fixed foundation upon which the moving picture play of the universe arises and dissipates.
God exists as a state of awareness, it simply exists but exists separate from the notion of a birth and death, again....only the appearance of matter and form and the span in which it lasts creates the illusion that time exists. So while God is indeed eternal, because like energy consciousness is neither created or destroyed it's not a matter of "how long", rather it simply exists in a state of being, there is no frame of time passing. Time then is only relevant to matter because matter has a beginning and then an ending, that's how we measure what we call "time".
So God exists eternally but independent of how we perceive time.
Why did "God" create existence?
I don't believe there is a single reason but if you could imagine existing in an alone state observing nothing but self awareness at some point God is going to get interested in doing something different with Itself. The investment God has in creation is that God can observe, and observe something other than being alone. So God creates a type of simulation where real experiences can be observed. This allows God many channels of observation rather than a single channel.
If you could imagine being in a room alone with nothing but self awareness for no amount of time what would you do? what if someone offered you a TV with an unlimited amount of movies would you take it as a form of entertainment? of course you would so this same concept extends to creation and why God would do it. God is creative by nature and consciousness is a prerequisite for expressing oneself, so creativity is a natural expression of consciousness. This is why humans will always have an innate desire to create and express that which it finds compelling and interesting.
Of course no one can give God the option of having a TV lol....so God creates Its own entertainment through creation on many different levels of conscious experience. For us souls, we are but objects within the simulations of God, and God has access to each of our channels of experience as we interact within the simulation. I'll leave it that for now, your imagination should be able to take over from here giving you an idea why God would create worlds and souls.
How did "God" create?
Great question, it begins with that fixed state of conscious awareness we went over. Even though awareness is a fixed static reality, out of that fixed state of existence comes the "movement" or "vibrational quality" of that conscious activity, and this conscious activity generates what we call energy. Both energy and awareness co-exist then, they are both "eternal" and omnipresent and while we know energy is not created it is indeed generated. It is the byproduct of the conscious activity of God.
This eternal and boundless field of conscious activity generated megatons of energy. This energy was manipulated and condensed, and then released to create what we call a Big Bang which then enabled God more materials to create with through the fusion and chemical boding of force and heat. So basically energy (being a byproduct of the existence of God) was the first step in the process to begin creation. From there we know through what we study through the scientific method how processes begin and what those results are, needless to say God utilizes such processes to bring about desired results within the universe which is but a moving picture play of of the interactions between energy and element creating what anything God desires to manifest.
One must know that the rules for the physical universe as we observe it only apply to this one plane of existence. Transcendent of the physical world the rules change because the laws of physics change and so the experiences are very different.
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There are a lot of threads titled "AMA" that usually refers to the person creating the topic but this one will be,
Ask me anything about God, deism, the soul, creation, religion, spirituality or anything related! There won't be any bias as I will not use any specific religious source to answer the questions unless you have a question specifically about religion. That's not to say the answer won't reflect what is taught by religion as some things are unavoidable because there are universal factors that are involved but overall I'll just answer without an appeal to scripture unless otherwise asked. It can be an objection OR an inquiry, all questions or objections are on the table.
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I've heard just about enough of the widespread presumption about those who interpret the universe as a product of intelligence assume it so because we "want it that way", and because we "want it that way" we base all of our observations through that wishful way of thinking.
What a bunch of nonsense, it's disrespectful and downright interruptive to intellectual progress and in no way is it a productive way to determine the truth of what we are all here for. Get a grip, those of you who are either atheists or those who maintain a materialistic ideology of the world have no more of a grounded, intelligent interpretation of the universe through observation and evidence than Theists do. This has nothing to do with what anybody wants, it's not an emotional evaluation, that is not the factor that is involved in making a determination whether or not the universe is more than a product of matter and material.
It is very insulting, at least to a guy like me, who has spent countless hours, years and most of his life weighing evidence and sifting through information to uphold the most accurate way of making decisions and conclusions. I'm also a guy who has had many spiritual encounters and those experiences had nothing to do with what I "wanted", rather they were thrusted upon me and I observed them from a position of learning and curiosity. Never has it crossed my mind that my beliefs (if you wish to label them that) would be based on what I wish to be the case, that's so far from the truth whenever I read someone making that assumption it disgusts me.
To me, it seems like a way for the opposition to make themselves feel superior and really it simply is a way to stifle progress in a conversation. I guess it's easier for the guy that happens to be an atheist to assume the other guy is just a product of what he wishes to be the case, and again it's downright dirty! it is a very demeaning condescending accusation to say the least.
As I've been saying in this forum, there's really only two interpretations we have to choose from in regards to the origins of the universe, and with the universe being the target of this subject it's either a product of matter or a product of intelligence. This is not rocket science, it's not an emotional issue either and so it's not that hard to make an educated well-formed estimation which interpretation is probably most likely true. In my observations over the years, it seems to me that Atheists and those who interpret the universe from a materialistic perspective get off on feeling superior to their Theistic counterparts. They get off on believing the idea that somehow they've made a more educated assessment of the world and then they walk around acting all high and mighty. This is not directed towards all Atheists, some of whom I have engaged with are very beautiful people! very thoughtful and very bright individuals.
But let me make this clear, it doesn't amount to wishful thinking to have a theistic interpretation of the universe. There are many ways to make that assessment and what we "want" has no bearing on that decision. I'm not saying that there's no such a thing as confirmation bias or that maybe some individuals want their beliefs to be true, but overall in a forum like this one where we are all here to establish logical and educated estimations those types of assumptions are useless, it just makes the person asserting those claims look immature and ridiculous.
I come here to show there's much more to the equation than indoctrination and wishful thinking by presenting well thought out and unbiased content. So it is a slap in the face when I read some snotnose making such absurd claims and then actually believing them. There's nothing superior about interpreting the universe as a product of matter as opposed to a product of mind and thought, nothing at all actually and there's no more evidence in favor of that position than there is for the other. As a matter of fact, materialists like to fancy themselves as ones who have the evidence on their side as if somehow science supports their views lol, it doesn't. We use the scientific method to understand the processes of the universe and how they work, but science is a neutral study and those processes can be just as much interpreted as products of intelligent work than as products of mechanical matter. Science does not make additional claims it cannot account for, it's not an ideology or a worldview. Atheists and materialists interpret the works of science just as Theists interpret the same body of works...and they can because again, science is a neutral study it is not a materialistic or atheistic methodology.
The fact that the universe absolutely appears to be a product of intelligence has nothing to do with what "I want", the fact that there are countless spiritual encounters across the globe in every culture and on every continent has nothing to do with what I want. I can't change the fact that many religions and religious cultures have come to the same conclusions I have and that had nothing to do with me. I had zero influence on any of that and I can't change that I'm simply observing it. All the indicators that a Creator exists has nothing to do with what I want, my own experiences and my own observations of the world have nothing to do with what I want. I'm a person observing the world from a neutral position trying to make the most accurate assessments possible according to what I have to work with, and again, has nothing to do with what I want.
I can only make the assumption that other Theists are using the same honest and sincere evaluations to make their determinations, and to me it's a cheap shot for anyone to assert another's position to be a product of what they want to be the case. So if you're a person making this assumption back up a few steps, take a breath and realize that your position holds no more water than your brothers who hold a theistic view of the world, at least in terms of honest sincerity of heart and curiosity....and each interpretation has a legit premise and foundation. Interpreting the world Theistically doesn't rely on wishful thinking or confirmation bias, it is one out of two options that our existence originated and at least according to me all the logic follows and is held up by rationale and evidence. Materialism is not a superior option although it can be accepted by the beholder obviously as a stronger interpretation. However, being humble about your brothers opposing views will only help your quest for truth about our world. Asserting nasty and hasty generalizations about other possibilities and those who seek them will only make you less of a person, and make your views of the world shallow and less approachable.
Although both materialism and theism are in stark contrast to one another a person can really only make one out of two estimations and so to accuse the other party of being intellectually inferior and only estimating according to "what they want" is a very pompous assertion when in reality it simply comes down to what is more obvious to the person holding the view. We should come to the table first assuming that the person we are debating has made the same conclusions out of sincerity as our own selves.
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@Jasmine
To understand and learn about the self (you). You will always exist alone in your individual observations and experiences whether or not you share space with another person. You enter this world alone and leave this world alone, your observation point entails only you. Your experiences will always be about what you desire, what you need to learn and what you create in your own world. No matter the picture play the objective will always be the same....to learn about yourself and all of your experiences will be tailored to improve yourself, and in the objective of refining yourself you will discover your true origins....what you truly are.
This is the journey of the soul.
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@3RU7AL
Lets do something entirely different than what normally happens, lets see how quickly we can agree and move forward! we do that by using very simple and efficient reasoning and rapidly move ahead. So when I say something that makes sense and you can agree with it, let me know and then we take steps from there. Playing word games will seriously annoy me, so its up to you here where progress goes.
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@3RU7AL
How are you defining "intelligence"?
"the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills."
"the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria"
"the ability to learn or understand (reason)"
Hows that?
There are many religions that use language consistent with MAGNUM MYSTERIUM.
I would allow you to elaborate on that but for now lets not touch on religion until relevant.
How is "god" NOT "a thing"?
I mean, "god" is necessarily (EITHER) "a thing" (OR) "a no-thing", right?
Lol, ever hear the terms person, place or THING?
We're going to make the assumption that God is animate (living) correct? I mean we have to make some obvious assessments so that we aren't stuck on stupid right? I would not classify God as a thing in the sense I wouldn't classify YOU as a "thing"....since God is obviously not a place, lets just say God is a person, meaning God is an animate Being. If you're too shy about saying God is a person then lets just say God is a conscious (living) Being, how about that? anytime you add consciousness, living, sentience or awareness or even intelligence that automatically disqualifies it as a thing.
Thing-
an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being.
Lets back up a couple steps before we move forward. Which qualities or attributes are you willing to give to a Supreme Being (Deistic God)? if you're not willing to commit to being conscious are you not willing to say this Being is alive?? if this Entity is alive (living) then that means It is also conscious as they go hand in hand, can't have one feature without the other. I wouldn't label anything living as a thing, as in an "inanimate object".
I don't want this to become a game of semantics as many of your conversations become. Lets just try and be focused and rational here or I will become bored very quickly.
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@janesix
I feel that I am about equally evil and good, just like the yin and yang. I wonder if everyone is the same like that.
Yeah, not that it makes such a difference but I prefer to use the terms negative and positive. I believe there's an internal struggle or self awareness between both negative and positive at all times...kind of like the ol cliché where we have a "good" angel on one shoulder and an "evil" entity on the other lol, it's a pretty clear realistic image of such a dichotomy though.
When we left God and entered into creation we took on essentially a dual nature or better put a dualistic environment because contrast and duality must be present for there to be creation at all. If you took away duality and contrast there would basically just be a singular reality, so as long as you're within creation you will always notice both forces and because of that we must always struggle with the interaction between those forces whether that be within our conscious being or externally. As long as we exist within a dual environment it will always be something that imposes on all our intentions, choices and actions.
This is why creation also imposes the laws of morality, what some might label Karma, which ensures that while we are free to choose whichever force to interact with we will have to experience the repercussions of our choices. This keeps at least a form of balance within all things, while at times it seems like the balance may be off kilter at another time it realigns itself. Creation is a constant wobble between dual forces and as they pull and push against one another they will always maintain a balance of equilibrium.
On the other hand, if you were to exist within a state of non-duality (within God per say) as opposed to creation like a singular environment, such terms have no meaning or affect because no interaction between opposites are a factor. In order to interact between opposing forces there must be contrast and separation, forms and locations. At times creation can seem scary because of the extremes of two forces as they combat between themselves, it's also what makes creation interesting and fun....variance and difference are what make for realistic and unique experiences.
Since creation is also layered, there are places one can sojourn and observe where the swing of duality is not so wild, and where one force can have predominance over the other and that goes for both evil and good. In this physical world we see a good bit of both forces prevail at different times and places but in other planes of existence it can be much worse or much, much better.
The Creator which we call God exists as a Singular Reality so God in Its full state of Being has no such battles between good and evil because God exists primarily in a state of non-duality and unification where those terms have no meaning because there is no interaction, there's just a Singular Reality. In other words there is no contrast present, no other thing or person to have conflict with. So while God obviously understands what they mean, God does not wrestle with either force, only we do within creation. So yes, naturally if we were to absorb back into/within the One....we would no longer have any option to do good or bad.
It's very interesting to think about.
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