GnosticChristianBishop

"Jesus drove out demons with prayer and fasting"

Many can according to scriptures.

I have done the same since my apotheosis.

The way you meant it, the supernatural way, it is a lie in it's phrasing that you cannot possibly prove.

Stick to facts please. 

Regards

DL 

"We need to defeat evil" 

Good and evil have relationship in our dualistic reality.

If we defeat evil, what happens to good?

If we take the evil out of our evolution by not competing, we have less good and are thus weakening our species.

Right?

Perhaps we should just use evil in a more civilized way.

Christians seemed to as they continue to sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

You see how it is, right?

We should not defeat evil then. Right?

That makes the bible correct, where it says that God created evil for his pleasure.

If you cannot see the way God and I see, catch up.

Regards

DL

How exactly does prayer reduce evil?

Einstein would look at praying people and see that they have been praying forever, without a result, while expecting a different result.

IOWs. Einstein's definition of  people who pray to some supernatural imaginary God.

Praying, other than to ones self, to get ones self in gear to solve whatever the prayer is, is a foolish and perhaps insane thing to do.

Show where over the many years, where praying ever paid off, except for lying preachers.

Regards

DL

Something supernatural could though. 

Tell us how you know this as a fact. Tell us of your personal encounter with the supernatural that advised you.

Have you read Dragon in my Garage?

Regards

DL

Saying is easy.

Showing is hard, stupid.

Regards

DL

"The punishment for sin has been paid by God's Son..."

Compare your thinking to what Jesus taught.

On Jesus dying for Christians from a moral perspective.

It takes quite an imagination and ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
 
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians parents would teach their children to use a scapegoat. Good morals and Jesus speak against the messianic concept and bids us pick up our crosses and follow him.

===================

"That people can arrive at moral conclusions without Christianity has nothing to do with whether the Christian standard is correct."

If an opposing standards can be argued to be better, like the secular and free nations preaching for more equality, while some vile religions preach the opposite, should the inferior Christian standard be forced out of Christianity?

They thought it ok to have their inquisitions force other.

Do unto other says Christians should not mind being forced.  Right?

We would not sink to their level and kill, but brutal indoctrination, like they use on their children, is also reciprocity and fair play.

In a real holy judgement, all would be forced to the better Gnostic Christianity.

We remember the good Christianity that capture the world, and live it after apotheosis, something Christians cannot even spell.

  

Regards

DL

  

On what basis would we agree? What standard do we have to determine what punishment each crime deserves?

Ever hear of a victim report.

Who but the victim should choose the punishment?

Not some God who cannot be made a victim. Poor poor God.

How the hell would he know how to judge fairly?

Hell, his first judicial decision in scriptures is the immoral concept of punishing the innocent instead of the guilty and ignoring the victims.

What kind of incompetent judge or God would ignore the victim?

That is why your bible tells us to judge and not God.

Try reading your bible junior Christian.

Regards

DL

Full agreement save this.

"No one directs our fate."

Strongly disagree.

We are all free agents in this reality together.

I choose and renew that choice  --- often ---,  to be a bully to the liars who call themselves believers in vile and immoral Gods.

They hide behind supernatural lies, while I keep burying them in their own biblical truth.

Regards

DL

"But if you wish to say that God's standards are wrong, on what basis can you make that claim? By what objective standard of morality can you say that His standards are wrong? And if you think morality is subjective, then "I subjectively disagree with God's standards" is not at all convincing."

Most moral issues are subjective, but I have one that I will offer as objective, and a true good, without an evil side, even as that goes against my normal pure dualistic thinking.

I Offer that killing when one is also able to cure is immoral.

To cure instead of kill is the moral position.

God is demonstrably evil in nature, as evidenced by his killings, if the literature is to be believed literally. I E. Noah's flood and Constantine's Jesus' Armageddon. Not the Gnostic Christian Jesus.

The moral position for God can also be found in the bible, but Christians do not read those parts, because the negate the need for a hell.

I learn a lot when getting Christians to discredit their own bible and beliefs.

If you do not like or accept my offering, give us an example or two of your objective moral tenets.

I cannot think of another.

Regards

DL

   

"Yes. My knowledge of what it would do has no bearing on the fact that it freely chose to do something wrong."

More lies, to me.

As to your bogus free will argument. you ignore where your bible says we are controlled by God's grace,  so here is more scriptures for you to ignore. I also gave an argument you cannot refute, junior Christian.

Bolded so you can find it.

Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.
 
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
           
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
 
This indicates that Jesus had no choice.
 
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
 
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
 
This then begs the question.
 
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
 
Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.
 
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
 
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
 
------------------------
 
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
 
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
 
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
 
If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.
 
 
Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
 
 
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
 
 Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
 
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
 
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
 
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
 
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
 
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
 
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
 
Regards
DL 
 
-----------------------
Evolutionary theology.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXOvYn1OAL0&list=UUDXjzOeZRqLxhYaaEhWLb_A&index=9
 

God in scriptures begins with God commanding Adam and Eve to reproduce.

Commands are incompatible with free will.

Especially when the next command denies Adam and Eve the knowledge that they were naked and that they could reproduce.

Eve and Satan made the right choice and that is why you sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Stop talking out of both sides of your mouth and pick a side.

I note that you maintain your stupid position, --- that the breasts you see on Satan in the Expulsion belong on a man.

You must be deformed.

Regards

DL

Satan is a he.

Satan is a she, logically, naturally and in the Vatican art.

Did you look at the Expulsion painting?

If those are a man's breasts to your eyes, get some glasses.

Regards

DL

Please do not believe that free will from God B.S.

Here are the quotes that prove our friend either does not know the bible or is a liar.

------

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?
 
Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ
 
Those quotes seem to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.
 
The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.
 
If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?
 
Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?
 
Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?
 
I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.
 
Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.
  
What is your choice of those two options?
 
Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.
 
I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.
 
What do you think is the truth?
 
Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?
 
Regards
DL
 

"Why are we even talking about the concept of God?"

Because of the way too many God believers who are abusing LGBTQ+ women, --- as a normal part of their vile lives.

Know and fight your enemy is why, as that is the moral thing to do. 

Regards

DL

Growing?

My stats show shrinking.

So do the many empty churches on the market.

I have been promoting equality and you read the opposite.

Reading comprehension may not be your forte.

Regards

DL

"Christianity is true, nor does it have anything to do with whether universalism is true."

What does true mean to you here?

True that Christianity is a immoral religion?

True that universalism is the way to think?

Regards

DL

"I wouldn't say that it was planned, but it was the result of our own actions."

Do you think A & E should have remained ignorant of all knowledge, even reproduction and knowing they were naked?

You do recognize that the tree of knowledge is the tree of all possible knowledge. Right?

Do you think Adam did the right thing?

If not, why do you Christians sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to God's plan?

As to Satan being male, go check the Vatican Expulsion painting.

If you think those breasts on Satan belong on a man. do not return.

In evolutionary terms, women are our prize and the source of all human against human evil.

They make men compete and create losers. Those losers are the evil part of evolution, but without it, we go extinct.

Embrace that evil, as it is in a big good envelope.

Regards

DL

 "We just disagree with them."

On the love hate or harm care response graph line, that modern moralists use, that is the hate side.

If you are to put sexual and gender issues above the love issue in value, that is hardly a way to do unto others, which is suposed to be what Christianity is all about.

Jesus said that what you do to the lowest you do to me.

Let me rephrase what I see you saying; Christians disagree with Jesus and punish where there is no victim and will embrace homophobia and misogyny.

That, I think is closer, to Christian right wing thinking.

That is why the more moral are leaving in droves.

Regards

DL

===============================

To your first.

You are saying that humans planned their own fall.

Was Satan, the female who made us fall, not created to do that perfect sin creating thing in your God's plan?

Or was the initiation of sin all Yahweh? 

To your last.

I do not deny the all creative forces around us as evolving perfection.

It is the believers who would divide and hate much of that perfection.

They pray for Jesus and his own inquisition and mass murdering.

Regards

DL 

Immoral leadership.

As we speak, they have their vile churches preach for the inequality of souls, based on what the body does.

Even, according to their belief system, the bodies are doing what their God given souls and God created them to do.

All who are not universalists are denying their own God's ability to create perfection.

They have no real faith in their God and cannot argue his way.

All they have ever had was inquisitions and jihads.

Ask anyone in the better religions that the Satanic ones tried to destroy. 

Regards

DL

Atheist churches belie your thinking.

The misguided right wing does more harm than the left.

Do not make such stupid statements, as religions continue to shrink.

Regards

DL

I agree that the Christian theology should be based on the Golden Rule.

In this case, homophobia and misogyny has Christians doing the opposite, by design.

Regards

DL 

"Yes, it is. So that is why God came down, and died for us, by his choice. That is why it is so beautiful."

I thought that Christians thought God to be immortal.

Where do the scriptures say that Yahweh can die?

When Jesus taught these, was he not saying that it is immoral for us to even want a scapegoat?

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Regards

DL

Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;

Would you not follow Adam and gain what he did?

Regards

DL

You sure deflected into a lot of topics that I would argue against.

You want a formal debate and show you cannot follow an issue or reply to points.

My issue with Yahweh was shown in my Job 2;3 reply, --- which you ignored, --- which has God admitting to being evil, --- and you just reply with a fucking "God is Good, ---- without negating or replying to my argument.

You win all arguments that way, so a formal debate would likely be a waste of time.

Regards

DL

  

U C 20/20 on Christian apologists.

I do not care when they believe B S, but when they start promoting their genocidal homophobic God, a fully immoral God, then I dig in.

It has to be about 20 years since most major God religions started complaining about their own lack of decent apologists.

When the moral majority abandons religion, they do not go back.

Regards

DL

Name this more evil than Yahweh God, and tell us why Yahweh created one who is more evil than himself?

In our dualistic reality, that would make that God more good as well. Right?

Regards

DL

Break the first commandment and name the one you put above God's for evil.

He said he created evil for his pleasure and here you are wanting to give some other God of evil the pleasure.

Yahweh will be angry with you.

Still want a formal debate?

Regards

DL

Question for you on how you perceive reality.

Are you a dualistic thinker?

That is usually describes as a body/souls or body/spirit way.

All but 5% of us claim to think dualistically.

If you do, your non-physical or inner self is your highest ideal and thus, in a sense, your God. 

Right?

That would be you thinking like a Gnostic Christian.

 Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.
 
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
 
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
 
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
Allan Watts explains those quotes in detail.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw
 
Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU
 
The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.
 
Gnosis enlightens adults.
 
Regards
DL
 

I thought we were going to do just that here.

Who referees in the formal debates?

I would love a debate on morals, but whenever such a topic is proposed, Christians just run away,  after the usual insult are launched.

 

I am a Gnostic Christian with decent arguments and all they ever had was inquisitor tactics.

Regards

DL

Would you agree with the notion that we are all created from star stuff?

We have heavy metals in our construction that are only formed in super nova.

If a God created us, he had to use naturally created substances and in a never ending evolving reality, a God is not required to create life. God becomes redundant.

That is what makes Gnostic Christian views of reality better than most. 

It is science driven.

The Gnostic Christian reality.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said,  "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
 
"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
 
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
 
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
 
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
 
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
 
As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.
 
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
 
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
 
That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.
 
Regards
DL

How many Gods exist?

Are any more good or more evil than Yahweh?

Same question for Jesus.

Regards

DL

So how would you explain what started time?

For all we know, man is the only sentient life and able to have or know of concepts like time, space, spacetime and reality.

Prove that statement wrong.

Would our instincts and dualistic thinking, with statistical proofs, be considered strong evidence?

Despite the title, this is on dualism.

 Religion Has No Earthly Purpose, So Why Do We Cling to It? | Reza Aslan | Big Think - YouTube

Regards

DL

If the soul is energy, it should be detectable. Correct?

We can detect all other frequencies right to their sub-atomic components.

Let me show you what Gnostic Christians think.

Gnostic Jesus was questioned as to what sees the vision?
 
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/mary.html
 
The Saviour answered and said, 'He does not see through the soul nor through the spirit, but the mind which [is] between the two - that is [what] sees the vision...'
 
For where the mind is, there is the treasure.
 
===================
 
Christianity does not quite agree, wording wise, with us.
 
Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
 
Our hearts just confirm that the vision is a treasure.
 

If a soul keeps memory/visions, then it is perpetually being recreated by whatever our minds are going through.

People creates their own souls, as they are a true reflection of who they are, being preserved for an imagined afterlife.

An unwarranted conclusion by those who foolishly believe in the supernatural.

Regards
DL

Correct on both counts, as I am learning.

Regards

DL

Go away. You bore with your talking animal friends.

Regards

DL

You see that as moral equivalency?

I see it as the opposite.

Here again I offer my sympathy to your poor thinking.

I'm out of here.

Regards

DL

I do not struggle with the story.

What facts?

Can a myth be known as factual?

If you believe talking serpents and donkeys are logical and or real, then I do not know how to continue.

All I can do is offer my sympathies.

Regards

DL 

I hear you.

We are all the same.

That is why we gave up freedom for liberty.

But you will note that you complain of words, while I complain of those who use death and inquisitions.

The same religious pricks who are using a mental inquisition against gays, not to mention women with their vile religious misogynous ways.

Give me a moral atheist any day before you offer me one of the pricks.

Give all those bastards to their genocidal Yahweh/Jesus combo.

Regards

DL

We all have a thing that we hold above all else.

The astute will call that thing God. 

Money is the God of many who are liars from the get go.

That is the definitions of all the God religions as they have all invented the Gods they lie about.

Read the Holy Books and the truth becomes apparent.

Regards

DL

It also states that serpents and donkeys can talk human.

What that timing thing is telling you is a truth.

The bible's scenarios and archetypal characters are fiction and timeless.

They are to represent all of us, as good fiction does.

Unfortunately, the less bright began to believe in the supernatural and corrupted a decent naturalist religion.  

The good was spelled Chrestianity while the evil became Christianity.

Regards

DL

My Kingdom to have the power to have atheist walk their talk, as it pertains to homophobia,  misogyny and abdicating of ones responsibility for ones actions to a savior.

I guess that how quickly atheists and other moral people end those sins will be what atheism, at the end of the day, will be judged by.

Someone needs to light a fire under the asses of decent people.

If not atheists, then who.

I am not an atheist, having suffered my apotheosis, but I recognize quality.

Regards

DL

Sure, and note how atheists have better stats.

Regards

DL

That might also explain the better atheist morality.

Regards

DL

Perhaps, but is the honesty, and knowing the truth instead of ending believing theistic liars not better?

I think religions should end their lying so as to be more honest the way atheists are.

Regards

DL

True, but who would want the homophobia and misogyny of the other, morally inferior religions.

Atheism, morally, has proven itself superior to theism.

Regards

DL

95% or so of believers are lying about their beliefs.

There are a number of various atheist churches with various venues.

Do you recognize why atheists are opening them up, and do you agree with them?

Regards

DL