ILikePie5

Also theres no night kill so whats your explanation?

Do vanillas get action failed notifications?

I didn't get a notification saying I was roleblocked so... no??? Lmao. So you are lying lmao. My role is used in the DP so why would I know I got roleblocked

So either Savant is lying through his teeth or I've been framed

I keep re-reading this and taking something different away every time I do, so I'll just ask questions.

Did you know there were still 9 people left in the game when you claimed or did you miss that and claim under the presumption that there were 7-8 people left?

Regardless, why start off the DP with your claim? The only explanation I see here is that you say there were "enough options and leeway" but I don't understand what you're getting at. What value did you see in claiming this early?

You wanna post your thoughts on Vader/Savant?

My other roles were popular, politician, and 1x dark lord. All of which are "role confirmable," hence why I said I don't believe in the validity of role confirmations. Plus Dark Lord and Politicians had choices to switch the momentum of the game completely. It was between popular and politician and I just thought 1x Double Voter would not hurt town the most 

Pie, I assume you can confirm?

I realized if all you have is one-time info, it would be good to have WyIted change your role. But we'd need to somehow be confident you are town, which is unlikely rn.

I’ll respond to you when I get on my computer in a bit, going to be difficult covering this on my phone.

I’ll respond to you when I get on my computer in a bit, going to be difficult covering this on my phone.

“Pretty sure this hard confirms me as town, since it'd be atrocious from a balancing perspective to give scum a useless when town has seven non-negative utility PRs.”

Pie's whole argument is based on two things:

1. I'm too confident in being town.

He says it's unreasonable to think I should be considered town.

The logic here is simple - I'm literally negative utility, a type of role which I have never seen given to scum and is especially unbalanced in a game where town has seven PRs. I think it's reasonable to work from that perspective in order to see how others read me and read them by proxy.

2. I scumslipped.

He says that I know scum were given roles from the two unknown categories.

That's objectively false. Read my posting. If you think I said that, then tag me.

-

Ngl I was kinda expecting more from Pie, not a wallpost I refuted in 3 minutes lmao.

Just to be clear, you are investigative role?

That's fair. We could lynch Pie. I would then make GP bullet proof so we have another safe town to be with us at mylo.

I will say that despite GP not contributing much, his reads are usually pretty good so we can depend on him to normally make the correct decision

Austin's reads seem pretty reasonable to me, which makes me town read him as well. Only thing I'd shift is maybe Earth, who seems pretty neutral to me. But that's barely any difference.

Pie's role claim is interesting. I agree with WF that it does seem to give us a peculiarly large amount of information, and yet I'm inclined to believe him. From a balancing perspective, it makes a certain amount of sense. I also agree with his thought process regarding Austin placing an unusual amount of importance on role confirmation -- that also didn't sit right with me.

And conveniently puts town on even numbers, losing us a lynch.

I'm not even sure what Pie is saying here. I'm saying that:

a. Luna gave me this role (in the form of options)

b. If I was scum, I'd either not have chosen this role if I had other options, or if I didn't have options, then Luna's bad at balancing

c. Thus, I'm not scum.

I didn't say that scum were given roles from two fake categories.

Pie is straight-up not reading what I said here, either deliberately or negligently.

I said that I was given roles from negative utility category, and that if I was scum, the options that Luna gave me would have been unbalanced.

I'm working from my own perspective of the information I have as a townie, and given that, pointing out that it doesn't make sense for me to be scum.

Saying that "I am [X], "It doesn't make sense for me to be scum]" doesn't mean that Scum is [X]. It's a hypothetical.

I really struggle to see Pie genuinely believing in this. I think he's capable of far better solving.

My hesitation mainly comes that when I flip town, it's going to look pretty bad for him. But I think that he is a good enough player to talk his way out of it. I strongly want to see whether he continues this push, because if he does, I'm going to assume he's just going for the mislynch.

I'm not clear on the sus here. 

The first point is true of basically anyone who is town, since GP's role will confirm them regardless of their prior role. I also don't really like that you started with that, since the implication is that Austin is a mislynch. I know you used "can" in that sentence, but it's still weird to state this if you strongly believe he's scum, since the flip necessarily would make GP's role useless for this DP.

The second point is really where you're sussing him and I guess I'm getting it a little more based the info you say you've received from Luna. If you're right that scum have been given roles specific to the two Categories town doesn't have in their ranks, then you're correct that no amount of role confirmation suggests confirmation of their affiliation.

I agree it doesn't "hard confirm" him regardless (and I think that was jumping the gun a bit), but he's also not the first person to suggest that scum might have access to roles in the two Categories that aren't in town.

There is some presumption in that line that suggests that scum could have received a role from those Categories, which seems to be the stronger basis for your sus, but I read this as making a case for why it couldn't be because it would throw off the balance of the game.

That's not to mention that this post is from early in the DP, well before there was any significant discussion of what roles scum could or could not have based on what we know from the OP and the signup thread. Maybe he's implying that he has inside information about what roles scum have access to and if I squint at it hard enough I can see your position, but that's not how I'm reading it.

So we have our first unconfirmable role claim. That doesn't automatically make you sus, but I'm going to point it out because this is a marked shift from the claims made so far.

It's also a claim I'm unfamiliar with, though I also hadn't heard of a Role Changer. I will, however, note that that particular role seems very tailored to this setup, while your role seems more generalized, so it comes off to me as pretty distinct from the rest of the existing claims and from my own role.

I looked up the role as well. This is an abnormally large amount of information for an Informed player to receive. It's listed as usually getting something like the identity of another townie or the existence of a particular PR. It's weird as well that it partially contradicts the information I spelled out from the sign-up thread and OP, specifically giving you information that scum have access to a role that belongs to their fake Category.

If we take this at face value, that means scum have access to two full claims that are, essentially, just real. That's more support for the scum team than I think I've ever seen in a game, but given that this is a unique game, I suppose it's possible. This essentially means that the only ways to determine that scum isn't what they say they are is to find behavioral tells (which is a lot harder to do when they're literally just telling the truth about what they can/cannot do) or find evidence that they used another role/committed the NK.

That's possible as well, and given the explicit lack of a TP in this game as well as the issues with balancing it that come from people selecting their own roles, it might just be that Luna wants to force town into a more difficult position using this setup.

Still, I'm struggling to buy this. Is this a rephrasing of what he sent you?

I'm assuming it's not just c/p'd, so I'll function under that assumption, but the way it's written just seems... off. This all seems needlessly clunky, particularly: "The first to prove the category they know to be fake one to help prove their fake category". Why not just say "Scum receive a role from the two remaining categories"? Why spell out that the purpose is to "prove their fake category"? For that matter, why were you provided the extra information that the other role they received is an "every night role"?

I'm also struggling with some of this follow-up. The way you phrased it above was that they have access to four roles, but can only use one per NP, suggesting that scum have very strong PRs and that they effectively have a pool to select one from and use per night. Now you say that they have four roles and can use two per night, one for each player, so long as they're active roles. The latter does make more sense, but that makes your phrasing on the PM you say you received feel even more off.

I've already discussed some of this, but I'll address a couple of distinct points. Yes, we know balance is wonky in this game. As Luna stated in the OP, though, the reason for that is pretty explicit: "the game balance was entirely determined by player choice". He's clearly concerned about how the balance will play out given what we chose, not so much based on how he set it up. I wouldn't say I agree with him that scum wouldn't be given a negative utility role, particularly Hammerer, though it skirts the line on what I'd even call a negative utility role in the hands of scum. That's a separate issue, but I feel it's worth mentioning.

Apart from that, I just don't buy this scum slip. First off, I don't think his confidence on role confirmation equaling affiliation confirmation is a scum slip. It's more than I'd be willing to say on the subject, but I already expressed my view that strong role confirmations could at least be close to an affiliation confirmation.

Second, I don't think that sentence demonstrates that he "knows that scum were given roles from the two fake categories." Again, I think he's spelling out a balancing issue he would perceive specifically if they received a role in the Negative Utility category.

I'm going to give this some more thought, but in general, I'm not liking this post.

“Pretty sure this hard confirms me as town, since it'd be atrocious from a balancing perspective to give scum a useless when town has seven non-negative utility PRs.”

Mafia started with two roles each. The first to prove the category they know to be fake one to help prove their fake category, and one every night role from a special selection of roles exclusive to mafia. Even though scum have a total of 4 roles, they can use one role per NP aside from the NK.

I can change a role so anyone who regrets it just tell me what number the role they prefer is. It's a 1x ability.

Challenge accepted.

I have a one-time ability to undo a lynch. After someone is lynched and their role is revealed, I can use my power to bring them back into the game. However, they’ll return as an ordinary vanilla townie. This ability (obviously) cannot be used on mafia members.

I trust you. Mainly because I think scum would have more thought out opinions on what role they want and be more committed. If a lot of people scum read you though than I will pick 4 even if I continue to trust you

Role confirmation =/= affiliation confirmation

Especially in this game too

Pie has been weirdly quiet this game. I don't know if that's necessarily alignment indicative -- he as scum would know that suddenly going quiet would be a very noticeable behavioral shift -- but I would like to see more from him regardless.

Null on Vader for now. I disagree that Hammerer was a poor choice in comparison to Austin's other options, but I don't really scumread him for his thought process.

I am going to vote for Pie for now because I want to hear more of his perspective on this game.

VTL Pie

Thoughts? You're usually the one who starts out making accusations.

Oh, for no particular reason what role number did you prefer your role be changed to? 

As in, saying what our other options were besides the role we chose?

Does anyone else regret the role they chose and want to change it?

After conducting some 25,000 interviews and running down tens of thousands of investigative leads, the FBI found that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.