Total posts: 17,895
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I’ll note that the only information we gain from shooting Vader first is whether he’s scum or not. We don’t learn anything that will help contextualize previous DPs since we already know Vader is the double voter. It tells us nothing about anyone else. Shooting Casey first is the right call because it lets us test their role and how it relates to Pie before we make a decision on who to lynch. Vader is not taken off the table by doing so.
Test what as it relates to me?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Dude, I quoted your initial post. I’ve done it several times. It makes no mention, nor does your clarification in DP1, of a DP/NP split. This is a brand new clarification in DP3, so don’t pretend that it’s always been there. Why did you leave it out of the information you gave in DP1?
Yes, I did. Here it is:
“Now being me, I picked Luna’s brain a lot and I got some other stuff out of him because the info was confusing. If scum have a passive role (ie Hammerer from one of the categories) they can still use an active role at night. Functionally, scum can use two active actions at night + NK assuming their “town role” is passive. If their “town role” is active, they have to waive a mafia action at night in place of the the active “town role.”
Here is what I said as well when you responded to that initial post which is more clear:
“I know. It’s confusing af, which is why I asked Luna a million questions. Here is my understanding that I confirmed with Luna. Let’s say that Austin is scum and fake category role is Hammerer and night role is Roleblocker. He will function as a Hammerer during the day and can use his Roleblock at night. Now let’s say Austin’s fake category role involves a day action. Then he can’t use a mafia night action. Ask me more questions. It’s confusing as hell.
So you’re wrong. I did say it. You just misinterpreted or missed it altogether.
I think Casey’s flip will be more informative and could alter our perceptions of what to do with the lynch. If they are the Mason Recruiter, then you’re confirmed town and we can be more confident in town support of Vader’s lynch. If Casey flips scum, then we can have a discussion over how you confirmed their role.
Masons can recruit scum members. Thats why Casey is in the POE.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Any particular reason you prefer this order? I've taken to the opposite: shooting Casey and, depending on the flip, lynching Vader.
What information does Casey’s flip give that Supa’s doesn’t and vice versa?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I don't see anything about limiting what can happen during a DP/NP cycle, and that information would have been super relevant since it would have hinted at the existence of a DP-use role on the scum team.
I mentioned it with the whole active/passive role. They can’t use a DP active role and NP active role. It’s one or the other.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Now you're just modifying what you said initially. The message said:
Then you misunderstood what I said initially. I said scum have 4 roles, 2 each. Each scum has a role in their category to prove it and then one role from the special category. If a member of the mafia has 2 active roles, they can only use one DP/NP cycle. For example, if Earth uses Vig right now, he cannot use his mafia active role tonight.
I said I'd prefer to shoot Casey, hence that whole "vice versa" in the parenthesis. I'd like to see Casey's flip before we decide the lynch, but right now, my default is to lynch Vader.
What difference does it make if we shoot Casey and lynch Supa vs shoot Supa and lynch Casey. Mechanically there’s no difference
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
At this point, I'm not believing that because I think you're putting us in a place where Vader and Earth get killed first and then Casey. At least one person between Vader and Casey are scum. That's my position. If that's true, then we should absolutely not lynch Earth under any circumstances this DP, and when you argue this:
Okay so you want to lynch Casey today? Fine with me.
I'm entirely baffled. This argument relies on there being one scum between Vader and Earth. That's possible, but I'd say we're guaranteed to hit scum if we shoot Vader and lynch Casey (or vice versa, which right now, is what I'm supporting), since they cover all possible scum pairs, whereas this is a gamble based on one possible scum pair.
That’s fine with me. It’s POE either way. Cause there’s 2 scum in Earth, Casey, Supa. If you townread Earth and Vader flips scum, we can lynch Casey.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
See my responses to Pie. My point is not that scum could not possibly have picked Godfather as a role. My point was that it makes part of his information suspect if Earth specifically did, since it creates a non-choice between using his roles, whereas Pie's info strongly suggests a requirement exists for each scum player to choose.
I still don’t understand what your point is. I’ve said that scum can have 2 roles each. If they have 2 active roles, they can use only one per DP/NP cycle.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
We’re arguing for zero reason. If you think the team is Casey/Vader, we’ve already won the game.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
I read the last page. I'm okay with vigging Vader.
Okay, vote for Casey and then shoot
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@AustinL0926
Your plan works as well now that I think about it cause we’re say there’s 2 scum in Casey, Vader, Earth
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
@AustinL0926
If the 3 of us agree that there’s 2 scum in Casey, Earth, Supa, we’ve already won the game.
1.) Have Earth shoot Supa 5-2 —> 5-1
2.) Lynch Earth today (Win or 5-1 —> 4-1)
3.) NK on Pie/GP/Austin (4-1 —> 3-1)
4.) Lynch Casey (Win)
Alternatively, we can just lynch Vader today.
1.) Lynch Vader 5-2 —> 5-1
2.) NK on Pie/GP/Austin (5-1 —> 4-1)
3.) Earth shoot Casey (4-1 —> 3-1) + Earth Self votes
4.) 2 out of Pie/GP/Austin vote Earth
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
@AustinL0926
WF probs town by role because why else did I get options for Miller and Gravedigger.
Agreed.
GF probs town by role, if we lose to that than w/e.
I agree.
Casey, Earth, Vader, Pie.I'd probs take Pie out for the check and the mech that Casey is claiming, as well as generalized aggression that I associate with town pie.I think it's correct just to have Earth place his vote on Casey and shoot Vader, and then we decide from there.Thoughts?
I’m fine with Earth shooting Vader, but he can’t vote again after that if he’s alive in future DPs, which would be a problem for us. That’s why I’m saying we should force Earth to shoot Vader, then lynch Earth (just to be safe + utility). If Earth is indeed town it is 3-1 MYLO tomorrow. And then lynch Casey or VTNL for better odds in a 2-1. With one of Pie/Austin/GP alive as town and Casey/Whiteflame.
If we leave Earth alive and he shoots Supa and Earth is a townie, we’re permanently down a vote. We cannot win at MYLO with a Townie Earth alive. So the option is make Earth shoot Vader and then lynch Earth. Or just lynch Vader right now. I like the former option because I townread WF and it would leave Casey as confirmed scum in 2-1.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
Grey is not a confirmed town. Obvious I’d assume you say yourself as confirmed townie but you are not confirmed either. You are simply just a town read. Austin is the only confirmedFor someone who is adamant on role =/= affil. You are very ballsy to call GP confirmed town
If you think Austin is town, then GP is town because he revived him.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Based on that alone, I'd agree with you. It is possible, since it says they have "a special selection of roles exclusive to mafia"... except for two things.First, that kind of throws a wrench into your whole "they have an every night role" part of this explanation. If scum have a Godfather and a 1X Day Vig, then they have no night roles to select, yet you say they individually "can use one role per NP aside from the NK". Unless you consider a passive role a "role use," that doesn't match.
Idk what every night role entails. I received no clarification whether it’s an active or passive role. Regardless, if it’s passive, it could be GF, if it’s active, it could be a Lawyer.
Second, here's the text from the OP in DP1: "7 of the following 9 Role Categories belong to the town. Mafia will have role options to pick from not on this list however." Specifically, the "list" he's referring to is the Categories, not the list of available roles under them. Maybe that leaves some leeway for certain roles, but it puts Godfather in a tricky spot since it's clearly a Passive role.
Yes, options to pick from not on this list implies the special category for scum. Just cause GF is a passive role doesn’t mean it can’t be in the scum category of roles.
Honestly, I don't know why everyone seems so ready to townread you for this. This entire argument is WIFOM.
I spelled it out. You’d have to assume I chose a non-confirmable role as scum. On top of that, I made up the entire Informed claim information. On top of that, I am WIFOMing this entire argument. Literally that’s a million assumptions to make.
Claiming you chose a non-confirmable role that looks like the information behind it could be confirmed by flips seems like a genuinely good tactic for scum. I understand that there's value in claiming a confirmable role, but considering your own claim put the spotlight chiefly on confirmable roles, I can see you doing it as scum. Sincerely, why not? Because there's value in being confirmable?
Yes? There is clear value in being confirmable. Scum don’t know that I knew that they have 2 roles. If they have confirmable roles, they just POE the non-confirmable roles into oblivion. It’s easy for them to.
Everyone that's been sussed so far has been confirmable. Austin had a confirmable role and was lynched. Savant arguably was confirmable as well. It didn't save them.
You and I are the only ones who have roles that aren’t confirmable based on everyone that has claimed. I read you as town. I want to lynch to Vader today. Tomorrow we can decide on Earth/Casey. Earth hasn’t played in a townie manner at all.
I think a lot of people gave you a pass because they thought this was risky, but I sincerely don't see a huge risk at all if you only tie yourself to one other player's flip.
Again. You’re arguing that I would go out of my way to choose a non-confirmable role in the hopes that all the townies got confirmable roles and I can WIFOM the fact that I chose a non-confirmable role. Wym tie it to one player’s flip?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
what if earth was scum and wanted to confirm yesterday with vig and the vote was too fast, so now he is trying to make it so he can't do it? Cause from what I understand they can only be one town role on any given day or no?
The “town” role they chose is permanent I’m sure, so is their scum role. The only restriction is that if both are active roles they can only use one each DP/NP cycle.
Still, I find it unlikely scum team got a day killing role or would choose to fake that, so Earth probs town
That’s fine. I want to lynch Supa today anyways. We can leave the Earth/Casey/WF POE for tomorrow.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
There may be value in using it for the sake of reducing PoE, I just don’t like the way that Pie’s using it throw sus at Earth.
Idk why you’re sussing me. You have to assume I chose a non confirmable role at the beginning, knew that everyone would have a confirmable role, and had to WIFOM it. It makes zero sense.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
One more thought that’s been bothering me. Assuming the information Pie received is real, there’s very little likelihood that Earth is the Godfather. That would be a Passive role, so it wouldn’t support his Category claim at all (and couldn’t anyway if he had claimed Passive). Pie said scum were given a role to prove their Category and a role outside of the 9 Categories. So the explanation that he is the Godfather and that’s how he showed up as town when I Copped him doesn’t work, at least not if you believe that he has a Killing role.
They have 2 roles. One to help prove their category and one from special category for mafia. So Earth can be a Day Vig and Godfather at the same time? Where’s the confusion. Regardless we lynch Vader today. What are his town tells to you
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
There is no chance scum chose a non-confirmable role. No chance.ageed
You, me, and Austin are basically confirmed townies.
That leaves Earth, WF, Casey, Vader. Vader should be scum no matter what. Just his partner.
Created:
Posted in:
Also, scum knew Earth was the killing role via POE yesterday. Why shoot Wylted
Created:
Posted in:
If Town Earth permanently loses his vote and shoots a townie , that’s effectively eliminating 2 townies + a lynch + NK making it insta-MYLO. Talk about swingy
And assuming that, there is no reason at all to select this role in the first place. Bookie is a far safer option and basically would’ve been town confirming. There is no chance scum chose a non-confirmable role. No chance.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Misfiring was a concern of mine. And my vote being gone is permanent even in MYLO/LYLO.
So a direct difference between how yours works and how Supa’s supposedly works
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Possible maybe, but not what I’d consider likely. As for whether Earth scumread someone yesterday, it’s clear that he had thoughts on it, and I’d have preferred that he shared them publicly as well as his role. The DP got cut short, but not so much that he couldn’t have done that. Still, I don’t see that as necessarily scummy. Why would he reveal that he’s the Day Vig now if that’s the case?
Confirmability.
Why not just push attention to someone else, claim a night acting killing role, say he’ll use it this NP, and end the game at the start of the next DP with no one the wiser?
Your point makes sense but the issue is if Supa is his scum partner and the likely lynch today, he can’t do that. Earth has explicitly said he thinks Supa is town.
The point wasn’t that it’s not a guarantee. It’s that the balance argument actively runs contrary to your point. Giving scum a Killing role under the premise that GP was always going to pick Reviver is a weak claim for how the “balance” was supposed to be struck, and I don’t love how quick you are to walk it back, either.
Wym walk back? I said explicitly that I hate making the balance argument in the first place. I’m fine dropping that argument. But what’s scary is Earth hasn’t used his ability and has lied about not scumreading anyone.
I’ve said the three pairings I’m entertaining as scum. Earth is in one of those pairings. So are you. Casey and Vader are in two of them, so as of right now, they’re my top scumreads.
That’s fine but there is no chance in hell Supa is town. He’s all over the place
I don’t like how Earth has played, but if balance suggests anything, it suggests he’s town. His choice not to use his role reads as anti-town, not as scummy to me. It’s still possible that he’s scum, but as of now, he’s below you on likelihood for me. I’m still not sure who I’d prefer as the lynch between Casey and Vader, but one of them is my priority this DP.
Interesting
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
I said it for all the other roles that had vote manipulation and are you seriously going to play this game???? Have you ever made the politician role go thru MYLO/LYLO. That is just basic balancing
No. You only said it for 2/4 roles. All three are vote manipulation yet you didn’t say it for Double Voter nor Politician.
“Popular - takes one extra vote to lynch (deactive MYLO/LYLO)
Dark Lord - forces lynch at plurality (deactive MYLO/LYLO)
Politican - control another playes vote during DP”
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I... really don't like how you're talking about balance this way when just two DPs ago, you were dismissing balance altogether as not meaningful in this game due to Luna's OP.
I said I hate making the balance argument in the first place, but it’s a possibility nevertheless. My main point is that I want to avoid the possibility because it explains why Earth hasn’t used his ability yet especially since he is lying that he didn’t scumread anyone yet he voted to lynch Earth.
Considering it was never a guarantee that GP was going to pick the Reviver role, the notion that it's there to balance a Killing role that was definitely going to exist regardless and be scum-sided to boot just doesn't sit well with me, either. Nor do I like this attitude that it's either Vader or Earth that has to die.
I know it was never a guarantee. But the option was there. Anyways forget about the balance argument. Who else are you entertaining as scum right now?
I'll revisit this when I have more time, but as of now, I'm not liking this post.
Just forget about the balance argument. It’s conceivable that scum could have an extra kill, and Earth hasn’t exactly played in a townie way today.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
I'll give this some thought, though I highly doubt that scum were given an extra killing role, not to mention a day killing role with only one Protective role in play (and only one of those even being useful in this instance [the BP] and only then as self-defense), and that Earth would out himself as having it if he was scum and waiting to use it. That doesn't line up for me.
It balances well with the Reviver that GP has. I just want to avoid the headache of this being a possibility tomorrow because his reasoning for saving it is garbage. If Earth refuses, then we lynch him, plain and simple.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
Final thing before I go away. Put yourself in my shoes. My role expires at MYLO/LYLO.
Why are you saying this now? You had ample opportunity to say it yesterday but did not. Why? What’s the point in hiding the fact that you couldn’t use it at MyLO/LyLO
Why would I use a role that could send us to 3v2 or a 4v1. Versus one that sends us to a 6v1 or a 5v2. I played the role a lot more beneficially to town and if I were scum I would’ve saved it for this DP. Unless you think I’m actively shooting myself in the foot to try and gain town cred which at this point just take a hard look in the mirror.Yes I know I probably rushed the vote and hammered too early. Looking back I honestly probably shouldn’t have done that. Tbh should’ve probably asked if I could just double vote at L-1 to spare any neg utility but tbh I was very confident in my savant read and maybe a bit too tunnel vision than I like to admit
Or you’re scum.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
Normally I agree. However the circumstances of this game made me quick hammer using the role. For 1. we could easily afford a lynch in this DP, 2. We had enough preliminary info to get a mislynch. WF going after Wylted when wylted was gun hoe on Savant
Explain.
Pie literally came up with a 3rd of us both being town that you simply are not reading into. You are so dead locked and not thinking critically about any of the actions of the other that could have been beneficial.
I also said it doesn’t make sense
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Greyparrot
@whiteflame
@AustinL0926
I'm going to call it here for tonight. I will say that it's frustrating to only find out about this actually being a Day Vig this late. At 7-2, using it would have been very helpful in reducing PoE. Now, with 5-2, it puts us at MYLO.
My working theory is that he is scum and “saving” the extra kill till LYLO so scum can auto win. It just doesn’t make sense to avoid using it for 2 DPs straight when there were plenty of targets. He’s also implying that he didn’t scum read anyone, which is just not true considering he voted to lynch Austin DP1. An Earth/Supa team is likely imo.
I suggest we force him to shoot Supa today. If Supa is somehow magically town, we no lynch and go into LYLO tomorrow not worrying about this. If Supa is scum, then we go ahead and lynch Earth. I hate the balance analysis argument but it makes sense for the second kill cause GP can theoretically revive a townie.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
I was scum reading Vader pretty hard yesterday, but I felt some nagging doubts. I can't really rationalize why a scum Vader would waste his double vote like that.
To secure the lynch cause otherwise he was going to get lynched seems like a good reason. Not to mention confirm ability.
@WFTbh you are in my PoE. Nothing more. And yes, I purposely bolded my day vig in the DP for a reaction check. I am supposed to PM Vader. It does not end the day btw.
Why would you not shoot someone especially when we had no NK during NP1. We’re literally playing a game of POE.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
A) i felt like I didn't really have a good option besides hipfiring.
So you had no scum reads at all?
Created:
Posted in:
WyIted: Role Changer - Category: Manipulative
Savant: Roleblocker - Category: Role Prevention
Austin: Hammerer - Category: Negative Utility
GP: Reviver - Category: Protective
Pie: Informed - Category: Passive
Supa: 1x Double Voter - Category: Voting
Casey: 1x Mason Recruiter - Category: Communication
Whiteflame: Cop - Category: Investigative
Earth: 1x Sacrificial Day Vig - Category: Killing
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
I am the 1x sacrifical day vig. Once I use my day vig I can't vote again.
A.) Why haven’t you used it yet
B.) What were your other options
C.) What is your scum line
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
He said he did and Gp confirmed he did last DP
Show me were Wylted said he did and GP confirmed
I misworded it and even then it's not a big deal lol
It’s not even close to what you “intended”
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Can you please claim. This is the third time I’m asking
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
I meant to word it as he already used his role.
A.) How do you know that?
B.) This is not even close to what you said.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
That seems a bit interesting to me. Wylted couldn't even use his role yet scum decided to kill him.
Explain.
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Earth manipulated my result and it's a Vader/Earth scum team.Or... Casey and Pie are a scum team.I kind of wrote off this pairing being in the game after Casey tied themselves so tightly to Pie last DP. If Casey was somehow killed and flipped scum (and given Earth's still unknown Killing role, that was still a possibility), it would put Pie in the crosshairs. But that might just have been a risk they were willing to take. Setting that aside, there are really only two unknowns: why didn't they commit an NK and why did I Cop Pie innocent? The latter question applies just as well to Earth. The former is more of an open question, but given what WyIted was suggesting he did with his role and how he believed GP's role works, there does seem to be an explanation:
Casey could be scum. Luna has made Masons scum before. I willingly chose a non-confirmable role, which makes zero sense for me to do as scum. Everyone else has a confirmable role except you, but you weren’t given one to begin with, which is an outlier as well. If you’re alive, scum are relying on a Godfather or something similar from their special category. Casey/Vader is conceivable to me
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Casey_Risk
There is no reason we should not lynch Vader today. After yesterday, I cannot see a way for him to be town.VTL Vader
Unvote until Earth claims
Created:
Posted in:
I hate Post 119 by Savant
Wylted also makes a great point about why scum would prefer an Austin lynch over a Savant lynch
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Savant
They sucked. One let me block non-killing actions against me at night. One let me block any ability except the night kill. One let me take a player's x-shot abilities. The role block was the only option that let me stop night kills.
Names please
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Earth
Why would mafia purposely no kill? Austin is confirmed town and now WF has copped Pie innocent. So assuming WF is town, that is three players in the town pile. What is the point where you start playing to your win condition?
Full claim please
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@Vader
Well mafia knows that Austin was going to back from Grey's role, so no matter what they go to a 6v2. A risky gambit could be waiving an NK to fake a RB. Would very much work because of the nature of the game
It’s a massive risk because if Town Savant targets scum, they’re implicated
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
If savant flips town we lynch VaderVtl savant
Why?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@whiteflame
Well, I guess it’s basically obvious what I am given Earth’s gambit earlier.I’m the Cop. Needless to say, Investigative role, probably useless now.I targeted Pie last night. I needed confirmation that I could trust his information. I was pretty blatant about my uncertainties last DP. Result was innocent. Not impossible that he’s the Godfather or something (wouldn’t be a first), but for now at least, I buy that he’s town.Other options were Watcher, Tracker and something called a Category Cop, which would have told me the category of my target but was also 1X.
Watcher and Tracker make sense, but what’s the point of Category Cop?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
It's not risky. Savant was today's kill. It delays it by one day and I have never seen roleblocker stop the NK . It blocks roles and NK is not a role
There are 3 possible scenarios based on info we have:
1) Supa is scum and Savant roleblocked him to prevent the NK. (This one makes most sense)
2) Savant is scum and scum waived NK to implicate Supa and gain another day. (This one doesn’t make much sense because GP was going to revive Austin)
3) Savant and Supa are both town and scum waived to create 2 mislynch opportunities. (This one doesn’t make sense because Savant could target scum and implicate them—way too risky).
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
My explanation for no night kill is scum refrained in an attempt to fake confirm themselves.
What do you mean? They can do the NK + their 2 active actions assuming they didn’t use their active action in the DP?
Created:
Posted in:
-->
@WyIted
Roleblock doesn't prevent NKs so savant is obviously trying to insinuate it does and frame you here which makes him scum so do your thing
In my games roleblocked prevent NKs
Created: