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@oromagi
Why would I need to argue that propaganda and sensationalism are good? I'm only pointing out that everybody does it all the time so it is irrational for you to assume every time somebody engages in either of these commonplace activities, the opposite of what they say must be true.
If everyone does it, than everyone is evil.
I'm actually using the golden rule to analyze this here. I know that I would never use propaganda or sensationalism to push the truth. It makes no sense. The truth doesn't need help. It just is, and nothing can defeat it.
Reasoning is how I beat you in multiple debates, yes.
It's actually because I get banned every debate, I get lazy and you argue for truisms because you are too cowardly to have a debate on equal ground. You argue stupid shit like "bigfoot is unlikely to be real", and manage to win because despite your sub par arguments, your opponents start off on unequal grounding because they are left to defend bullshit. We also have the issue on this site where even when I give a debate my best, I can't win because their is an overt bias towards normative ethics here as well normative positions. This is not like DDO where the superior debater usually wins. Here it is the person who plays better to the judges that wins. I'm actually about to drop debate entirely and just judge debates when I have time, so that way I can push the site to judge more fairly.
crazy beliefs are not evidence of analytic prowess- exactly the opposite is true.
off topic. Jesse ventura claimed to meet with CIA (or some other american intelligence agency) after being elected to office. This has nothing to do with his analytical skills and everything to do with whether he is an honest witness. It is legitimately possible to be both crazy, and an honest person. It doesn't appear his conspiracy theories are a result of delusions, but more a result on his distrust of institutions. From his wording it also seems he doesn't take the conspiracies too seriously, despite the fact he enjoys talking about them
They aren't. Studying an making predictions is not participation.
Interrogating people for winning could come across as intimidating. It is unethical. This is particularly the case when it comes to questioning outsider or anti-establishment politicians. Also it appears the CIA has admitted the Ventura meeting occurred https://www.mprnews.org/story/2008/01/03/jessecia . However it's kinda obvious it's unlikely to be something he lied about.
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@zedvictor4
the repossessor was still going about their legitimate business.
Nope, they should triple even quadruple check to make sure there is a 0% chance of a mistake.
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@badger
look, these Ukranians are very stupid people. They actually had an incredibly large supply of nukes that kept them safe from Russia, and they literally just handed them over, LOL
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@oromagi
Your naivety about the bilderburg group is embarrassing. They denied this group even existed until like 7 years ago. 8 years ago, you would have called their existence a conspiracy theory.
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@valkyrie67
Americans should support Ukrainians because thats the right human thing to do. Their humans and we should support other humans.
The Ukranian separatists are humans too, should they not have their rights respected?
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@Amoranemix
Was Ronald Reagan a puppet leader ? If so, who was the puppet master ?
His advisors were the puppet masters. Kinda like how biden's presidency is rule by committee.
[9] Please present a credible source supporting that 90% of Ukraine's government consists of Jews.Russia allegedly invades Ukraine to denazify it. How can a goverment of Jews be a Nazi government ?
Putin is obviously referring to the genocides in Ukraine when he talks about nazification and not antisemitesm. I'm also not going to provide evidence for 90% of ukraines power players being Jewish, but numerous Jewish writers from the Ukraine show some anxiety that their success in government will be used to persecute them, and any evidence I'll provide you'll miss the point of what is being said and bitch that the true number is like 70% or some other nonsense instead of focusing on the crux of what the argument means.
[5] Russia is attempting to conquer Ukraine, not liberate it.
[10] Can you prove that is indeed all Putin wanted ?
10 shows the hypocrisy of your unfounded statement in number 5. Putin has merely said he recognizes the ukranian seperatists regions and only invaded because the Ukraine attacked the seperatist regions
[13] What is your source for that information ?
Nato keeps an open invitation to practically all nations and Ukraine can join when they want, it looks like just above 50% of the population want to join, but the government never got around to making it happen
Letting systemic adversaries violate your interests, will encourage them to continue at your expense.
Worst case scenario, they reassemble the former USSR and leave the United states alone, having zero affect on it. No country is even remotely close to being able to defeat the American military so Russia will not violate American interests/
14] What the founders wanted is irrelevant. What the current population wants is relevant.
I think the constitution of the United States, particularly the Bill of Rights is very important and that the principles america was founded on and relies on to be the most powerful country in the world, is very important.
[15] Is that a fact or just your personal opinion ?
It's a statement on ethics, so obviously yes.
[16] Why is that ?
Because they would fight for it, the same way the people rose up and fought for Maoist China or how people rose up and fought for Pol Pot to lead their country. Americans fought and died for freedom, a lot of these people fought and died so they could make Pol Pot or Mao leader as a vote for that type of government. These people want to be persecuted, otherwise they would resist instead of fleeing to western countries and then voting for interventionist regimes like the ones they run from.
What evidence can you present that there is a genocide of ethnic Russians ?
Russian intelligence services with spies in the area claim this is true. Do you have more first hand knowledge of what is happening in the Ukraine than government officials stationed in those areas do?
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@oromagi
I just did (Jesus, God illustrated the argument) Now we are waiting for it to sink in with you.
That's not an argument for why it is good. It's an argument that Jesus and God engaged in it, which requires me to believe 2 things, that in these instances that they did something good and that, they did these things or even existed at all. This is not how you debate is it?
he believes the Bilderbergs invented COVID to wipe out the world's population- apparently not understanding that the Bilderberg Hotel is a place that hosts an annual economic summit.
That is likely untrue, but let's say he has crazy beliefs, that speaks to his ability to analyze situations, not his ability to honestly recall past events.
They shouldn't be analyzing American elections. It creates a grey area which can be constantly encroached on and lead to election interference.uh-huh. And in this "grey area" metaphor what would black and what would be white? Grey area suggests a poorly defined demarcation between at least two conditions.
The poorly defined area would be in how the intelligence community is allowed to participate in elections, if at all. They should only be used to secure an election prior to one occurring. gathering intelligence about possible election interference, prior to an election occurring. What happens here is that if we give them too long of a leash, some future terrible leader could abuse power. and have them interfere with elections, intimidate sitting politicians etc. I want to not only entirely eliminate corruption, but any possibility of corruption as well.
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@ebuc
Some years back I recall reading that in Rome or Roman times, more plump women were consider more attractive
Popular misconception. The reason this exists is because all of the nude paintings of fat women. What people don't realize is the artists could not use nude female models, so they would paint nude men and add feminine styles of fat stores around the body, to make the painting look more feminine. I think this misconception is pushed by fat women who want to insist they look pretty by standards of men that used to exist.
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@RationalMadman
I have seen americans on chinese broadcasts that escaped america saying similar things about America that former members of Russia, state when they escape
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@oromagi
So, you don't comprehend that all good politicians are good actors first. Churchill and Lincoln were terribly depressed individuals: very moment of confidence and satisfaction demonstrated during their public life was for show. Kennedy and Roosevelt lived in near constant pain but pretended to be healthy men for the cameras. Roosevelt actually played the role of a man who could walk. We now know that Trump was quite ill with COVID when introduced Amy Barrett and debated Joe Biden and held a rally making fun of CDC recommendations for preventing COVID. Trump is such an actor that he's never seen without camera ready hair and makeup.
I.m not understanding why you think that stuff is credible
There is no reason to accept Ventura as a legitimate source of information on any subject.
I don't think he would lie about a meeting with the CIA. His one criticism of them was that they refused to show ID until pushed. Nor is your statement about him hosting a show where he investigates conspiracies relevant. The guy basically just aired experiments to test theories and interviewed politicians and officials about certain conspiracies. For example he pressed an elected official on why the sign on area 51 threatens death, as trespassing is not a death penalty crime. It is a fair question. My understanding is the sign is just an intimidation attempt, but the appropriateness is fair to question.
He also asked why several things concerning 9-11 were not public record. I remember the FBI agent pushing back and asking Jesse if he would ever reveal classified intel from his days as a navy seal, and Ventura says "Of course not" and stops interrogating him. If you had been the host of the show, you may have conducted interviews in similar ways. It's not quack territory, and if it were quack territory, it wouldn't make him a liar.
They are the Central intelligence Agency. Predicting the outcome of elections in every country on earth and advising the Federal Govt accordingly is part of their job description.
They shouldn't be analyzing American elections. It creates a grey area which can be constantly encroached on and lead to election interference.
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@zedvictor4
Especially assaulting someone trying to go about their legitimate business.
I already explained that the finance company already admitted fault and said the car should not have been towed. legitimate business doesn't do unjustified things
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@Greyparrot
I can't wait until we start getting all these Ukranian refugees https://womenandtravel.net/hot-ukrainian-women/
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I wonder if they also falsely believe Americans die for stating their opinions
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@RationalMadman
If you lived in Russia, wouldn't you think those things about America?
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@RationalMadman
The Russian State media uses none of those, it's so honest and amazing and trustworthy...
Where did you learn that from? Western media sources that engage in propaganda and sensationalism?
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@Lemming
WW2 could have been avoided with appeasement, however if they wanted interventionist policies, than they needed to be tougher early on. Hitler could have been stopped early. Just like I believe we should ignore the Ukraine situation, but if I was president and wanted to intervene, I'd do some emergency orders with the Ukranians and force a resolution to make them a part of NATO quickly, then send American troops to the border and dare Russia to make a move.
The only two ethical choices, are to take the matter seriously or non intervention, but this limp wristed response is stupid
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Here is the Ukraine's argument for it's defense
Derp, there is less geographical distance from Russia if they take us over
That is such a shit argument, nothing about how a buffer zone actually does a damn thing for Europe, just a stupid argument in general, and I have been watching CNN, that is literally the best argument they have had to protect the Ukraine. If there were a better more complex argument, CNN would have already aired it
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@SirAnonymous
If the US was invaded, would you advocate surrender to save lives?
I wouldn't give a shit if Ukraine helped us, let's put it that way. there is enough republicans here with guns that an invasion would be a bad ideal. If we were taken over, it would only affect america and literally nobody else though, so kinda stupid if other countries defend America
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@oromagi
History tells us that Putin will seek more or less continual expansion until he is stopped.
I am pretty sure he would stop with the former USSR, we are more likely to avoid WW3 by just letting him do it, and bonus it will neither effect us or the people who live in those regions, because they will go from living in a shithole country, to another shithole country, but with a different name. The only way these citizens are affected is by resisting.
America should not be policing the world. We shouldn't use our power to bully other countries to do what we want, completely ignoring russia and it's actions would make both America, and Europe safer. The same with allowing China to take taiwan and hong Kong.
World peace is literally achievable within our lifetimes, by just having a non interventionist policy.
We can stop all death and destruction from war, very easily just by minding our own business. The seperatist regions of Ukraine is all Putin wanted and wants. Those regions even want Putin to be their leader, otherwise they wouldn't have rebelled.
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@SirAnonymous
Just because a country that has great power doesn't use it responsibly doesn't mean that the saying is false. The existence of responsibility does not imply that the responsibility will be met. Also, getting "ripped off" is a rather callous way to describe trying to save lives.
More lives would be saved by the ukraine completely surrendering as well. Why is that not an option?
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No I trashed your twisted premises and your absurd conclusion. Nobody expects you to understand that.
Give me a detailed case on why propaganda and sensationalism should be used as opposed to the truth?
If you can't give solid proof there is ethical reasons, than we can only assume malevolent intent
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@oromagi
If you disqualify professional actors from politics there is no party in world history that would lose more members than the US Republican Party.
Speaking of Jesse Ventura, since you like democracy so much. Did you know that when he became governor the CIA met up with him and interrogated him on why he won, when their models showed he should have lost.
Why is the CIA tracking who should win in elections?
Why is the CIA intimidating people, when they gain public office, if the results were unexpected?
Yes, if actors are politicians it should be highly suspicious. It doesn't make sense that they are so common in politics, especially when looking at heads of states. I also suspect that Reagan had dementia and everything he said was scripted, just like BIden. Even Reagan's supposed off the cuff remarks are rumored to be scripted. It shouldn't make you comfortable that people like Al frankin win office, we should be ultra suspect that they are plants. The fact you bring yourself comfort that because america has plants than it is fine for Ukraine to have them is ridiculous. It's actually anti-democratic
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@BearMan
Ah yes, that's why he invaded it of course...
he recognized the seperatist regions as their own independent states, Ukraine attacked the seperatist regions, so it seems the invasion is merely to save lives, and once he disposes of the current regime, he'll let the people vote on new leaders and allow ukraine independence
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@Dr.Franklin
Putin is asiatic and sending muslim Chechens over to kill Ukrainian whites
I noticed this as well, he is sending the portion of the population he has the most problems with, and not risking the lives of real russians
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@oromagi
Particularly when Big Brother Putin has instructed you to believe they are all NAZIs now.
I think putin is claiming because of the genocides of ethnic russians, not because of the fact they are Jews. Putin is a zionist as well, so he isn't going to bring up Jewish stuff
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@oromagi
There is 45 million people in the ukraine. Estimates on the Jewish population for whatever reason and depending who is doing the analysis is at best 300k, but some estimates have the population as low as 50k .
Even the best estimate has them as a minority of the population that control most of the government suspiciously enough.
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@oromagi
- Jesus told parables to tell his narrative in the absence of any real evidence to back up his position. Jesus sensationalized his objection to merchants in the temple by whipping the moneymen and overturning their tables.
- God engaged in sensational propaganda when his giant ghost hand wrote on the wall at Belshazzar's feast. MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Using your very silly, insanely absolutist formula, you are calling God and Jesus liars.
You are ignoring my premises and arguing with my conclusion. I am asking what the motives are for sensationalism and propaganda, when ideally the truth should stand on it's own
Here is Zelensky standing in front of parliament with his cabinet on the front lines of battle while planes are dropping bombs saying, "Here we are, we aren't going anywhere."
He is literally an actor.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Probably bad, every country should be allowed to prosper.
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@SirAnonymous
I don't see how it is. If we're judging countries and alliances as threats based on what they might do in the future, regardless of the facts of the present, then why wouldn't the US be a threat to Canada? It's a well-armed neighboring country. Of course, based on the present facts, the US doesn't seem likely to invade, but that might change in the future. How is this different than the logic you're using to justify NATO being a threat to Russia?
NATO literally has tried to landlock Russia based on what it might do in the future.
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@oromagi
Literally every major news outlet in the western world addressed Putin's argument within the hour.Just try reading any of them legally in Russia.
I've been watching CNN.
False. I am an incredibly honest fellow and I engage in sensationalism and propaganda all the time. Honest Abe Lincoln was so damn honest they called him honest Abe..... Did Lincoln engage in sensationalism and propaganda? Of course he did.
If the truth is on your side, why would you need to do those things, let's think of possible motives of sensationalism and propaganda. When we look at the possible motives they are as follows
1. get people to believe your narrative, propaganda needs to be done here, only if you have no real evidence to back up your position, otherwise you would just do in depth analysis and share it
2. sensationalism itself is a lie, it means making something more exciting than it actually is. it's the definition of a lie.
If every lie necessarily means the opposite is true than it must first be true that every lie has an opposite but that's not so. Not every lie has some perfect and obvious semantic mirror image.
Where an opposite can be identified
case in point. you fail to even state what the opposite of the metaphor "Putin is Hitler" might be.
- Putin is Gandhi?
- HItler is Putin?
- Putin is Churchill
In this instance, it would mean that Putin is not the incarnation of evil, but perhaps a human like the rest of us who has his good and bad sides, makes errors in judgement and is just trying to do what is right by his people. He might even be a deeply flawed human or leader, but that wouldn't make him the incarnation of evil, and the attempt to dehumanize him, certainly wouldn't help diplomats relieve tensions and negotiate effectively.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It's relatively simple, Putin just says that the 2014 revolution (the real reason for Russia's annexation of Crimea) was a bunch of right-wing neo-nazis and that the current Ukraine government is illegitimate. Watch the speech he gave when announcing the invasion, he calls for the de-militarization and de-nazificarion of Ukraine. Pro-Russian media has done little to add to these points.
Crimea voted to be part of Russia btw. I wonder why Putin would want to stop the Ukraine from putting Nukes of hostile powers just outside of his border.
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@oromagi
Better than 85% of Russians in the Donbass are recent immigrants, arriving after three major genocides of the native Khazars and Ukrainians in the '30's and '40's, two of those genocides perpetrated by Russians. The ethnic Russians popularly supported the 1991 Declaration of Independence from Russia but in Soviet times, the Russians were a privileged minority before Independence and so equality meant some decline for that group. Still, ethic Russians have always had the option of returning to their native country and we should agree that seeking the advantages of return to a less equal society is not a quality to be admired or justified in any demographic group, recently immigrated or not.
explain why Russia is so popularly supported that the region is supporting rebel fighters even before the Russian's coming to liberate the region.
Also if a government is 90% Jewish like the Ukranian one, but 00.2% of the population is Jews, it's pretty obvious what is going on as well.yeah, yeah- seig heil, etc.
Okay, NPC. We can't ask questions like why is .02% of the population, representing 90% of the power structure. Noticing coincidences is racist. How about address the point, if this were any other group besides Jews, you wouldn't hesitate to call it out. Imagine if the Ukraine government was primarily people of Chinese descent.
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@RationalMadman
Ukrainians speak Ukrainian, they are not a Russian territory. I literally cannot put into words the degree of BS in your post. It is like typing the opposite of truth over and over to build a nonsense case.
check out the russian speakers in dunkirk, the region being fought over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_distribution_of_Russian_speakers
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@zedvictor4
Whilst you have a finance agreement in place the vehicle remains the property of the finance company. Who can repossess said vehicle at any time.
Not really, that would violate our contract.
So as long as the random dude was repossessing said vehicle as directed by and on behalf of the finance company.....Then said random dude was not stealing your car.
cool
They were legally, repossessing the property of the finance company....Irrespective of the any mistake that might have occurred.
We are talking about what is ethical, not what is legal. Slavery was legal, the holocaust was legal.
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@sadolite
was it right or wrong to repossess a car that was paid for and up to date? Keep in mind the finance company admitted to making a mistake
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Putin's hockey playing is actually impressive LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbI55HdqQs
I would have did the same thing if Biden was playing me in Hockey, and let him get some points
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This isn't an argument that the first people occupying it are the rightful owners. The Dunbar region is russian speaking and russian ethnically. The majority want to be russian and have revolted against the Ukraine.
Putin has merely recognized them as independent states and when Ukraine attacked these independent nation states, then Russia stepped in to defend these tiny nations. It should be noted, that Putin has no interest in the majority of the Ukraine which is not ethnically Russian and do not speak Russian.
Nice try, but stupid argument on your part and does little to address any of this
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@n8nrgmi
yes
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@Lemming
Actually Russian propaganda seems like a juust a more intelligent sober analysis of current events than western media https://tass.com/
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@Lemming
I would like to see their propaganda to know. Honestly, propaganda is evil and should never be used by any country, at all ever and under any circumstances.
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@ILikePie5
Ukraine refused to join Nato, so really their own fault, but we should pull out of nato anyway. The founders wanted us to be isolationist. Spreading democracy is just code for imperialism and is highly unethical, if these people in other countries wanted democracy, they'd have it
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@RationalMadman
Here is my thought process. What if the media is lying and Russia is the good guys. I can test this theory by seeing if they are doing in depth analysis or doing something more akin to propaganda.
Since they are repeating the same 5 or 6 phrases repeatedly and refusing to make any in depth analysis and keep all analysis very simple, it means they must be hiding something.
P1- honest people do not engage in sensationalism or propaganda
p2- western media uses sensationalism and propaganda
c1- western media is dishonest
p3- If somebody is dishonest, they are lying
p4- A lie neccessarily means the opposite is true
c2- The media is stating that Putin is basically Hitler, so the opposite must be true
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@RationalMadman
I'll delete the post just in case, but I assure you I am correct
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@Lemming
Was Putin not a soldier?
He was a soldier as well, and a war hero. He almost died on the battlefield and is only alive due to his stunning courage and big heart
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@oromagi
Men with big dicks don't make professional hockey players pretend that a 5'6" 63 year old KGB agent could score 7 goals on them
That seems very interesting. Citation please
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@oromagi
If Putin is anti debate, why is the Western press refusing to address his arguments and instead sensationalizing things and seem to be speaking to the lowest common denominator?
lets do a simple cost benefit analysis of the ukraine invasion
1. non intervention
possible ramifications. Literally none, ukraine just belongs to Russia and there is zero effect on western nations.
2. intervention
possible ramifications. All out nuclear war, eradicating most of the life on the planet
Those are both worst case scenarios, but when we look at there being zero benefit to interfering, we can see that Ukraine should not be supported.
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@oromagi
I don't believe the average German ever wanted to liquidate the Jewish people or take over Europe either but we democrats believe that the people are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their leaders. There was never a point in history when the German people weren't morally obligated to revolt against the NAZIs and hang the bastards themselves. Now is the time for the Russian people to take their country back from the oligarchs and display Putin's severed head from the tallest spire of St. Basil's Cathedral.
Hold on, is it wrong to revolt against the government or morally justifiable. Please explain.
It sounds like you are saying if the government behaves unethically, than it is the people's duty to overthrow the government.
Has the American Government ever did anything unethical?
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It was literally the first Russian territory. The parts of Ukraine that Putin recognized as independent territories, literally formed a revolution against the Ukraine, because they felt more Russian than Ukranian, which makes sense because that portion of Ukraine is Russian speaking Russian people.
America literally wants to kvetch about Russia taking back a russian territory of russian speakers and russians. This is all about a port the want to deny Russia that literally has zero effect on the United STates despite being a minor strategic asset to Russia.
Here is why sanctions will be lifted. Europe is dependent on Russian oil, and they are literally unaffected by this Ukranian conflict and have no business in it.
I advise everyone to invest in bluechip crypto tokens immediately, because the crypto market has seen major losses due to an over reaction of Biden threatening to regulate it, and further false decline due to the russian effort to liberate the Ukraine. These sanctions will also force Russian billionaires to flood the crypto market with their money. We'll see bitcoin at 100k before end of year.
It should also be pointed out that Ukraine has a puppet government. It's literally a guy that used to play the president on a television show and they thought he played the part so well, they would artificially place him as the president. If you ever want to see if a government has a puppet leader, always look at acting credentials first, followed by the relationships the individual has to other governments.
Also if a government is 90% Jewish like the Ukranian one, but 00.2% of the population is Jews, it's pretty obvious what is going on as well. Putin literally only wanted the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that wanted their independence, but I am glad the Ukranian government's reaction has made him consider liberating all of the Ukraine.
Think about this, if Ukraine was legitimately in the right here, why has the press been just making bite sized headlines with very little intellectual depth, instead of making deep arguments for why Ukraine should be supported?
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@badger
Sounds like you were justified
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