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@RationalMadman
The decrease in the slave trade resulted in additional reforms during the last years of Ghezo's rule. He significantly reduced the wars and slave raids by the kingdom and in 1853 told the British that he reduced the practice of human sacrifice at the Annual Customs (possibly ending sacrifice of war captives completely and only sacrificing convicted criminals)[6] However, these positions were reversed dramatically in 1857 and 1858 as Ghezo became hostile to the British; he revived slave trade through the port of Whydah, and in 1858, Dahomey attacked Abeokuta. The decision to attack Abeokuta had been resisted by Ghezo, but there was significant domestic pressure on Ghezo that the attack had been allowed to happen.[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghezo
Never watched the movie myself,
But it 'did look well made, by the trailers.
And I'm not trying to be a jerk, by pointing out the slave trading and human sacrifice,
West had a hand in the slave trade as well,
Lot of war and struggle of power in Africa, can't always do the right thing,
Have to deal with one's own people, and politicians,
Enemy armies.
And as I said, lot of 'historical movies take liberties with source material,
But people enjoy them anyway,
Like Braveheart (1995).
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@b9_ntt
Cool,
Though I disagree with Uragirimono, I thought they were a well thought, well spoken person.
I am interested in your own thoughts as well,
What are your own views?
You specifically asked for non-religious arguments,
Which I found curious.
As. . . Well, rhetorical question,
What is religion?
I think people can believe in ghosts, alien abductions, souls, flat Earth,
Without being religious,
I don't, but some people do.
But then again, maybe I shouldn't be curious,
It's common assumption/usage of word religion,
To mean supernatural include beliefs.
Though,
I include some atheist/materialist groups under my personal definition of religion, so eh.
And have some spots in life 'I'm unsure on,
Consciousness for instance, confuses me a fair bit.
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Maybe I shouldn't take myself so seriously,
Some people like making jokes with other people,
Friends often josh each other roughly.
Text communication has ability to distort 'intention,
. . .
Hm, should I even 'care about 'negative intention?
. . .
I doubt it's good to be a doormat in life
. . .
Eh, I think I'll just try to mind people less,
And only take myself half seriously,
Keep 'some seriousness though.
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@TWS1405_2
How 'much is homemade is the pizza,
And what do you like on it?
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@Best.Korea
History/Legend, claims the early Romans overthrew one of their monarchies.
Their consul system was pretty cool,
Though they also had a temporary position of Dictator,
Who would assume great power in time of troubles, then give that power up,
Such as the time Hannibal invaded Roman territory.
. . .
Though I suppose even in community systems, hierarchies of sorts exist.
Though I think at times that can just be understood as social interactions,
Some hierarchies are like a pyramid,
Others a flat circle of individuals interactions with one another.
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@RationalMadman
Cool, you enjoyed the movie,
Reads them as slavers and slave traders though.
Still, not as though colonial powers don't have their faults in history,
And people enjoyed that 300 movie about Spartans well enough, despite 'their history.
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Hm,
I have a sudden worry,
That my mental list of people not to interact with is wrong.
Is this like that time as a kid, I made a karma list of people to get back at in equal proportion or method, who wronged me?
Why didn't I have a 'good karma list?
Or accept that people make mistakes, change?
. . .
People can make mistakes,
I know 'I make mistakes, can misperceive people, situations,
Maybe it's better to interact with people, even if there was an event or many, that I disliked.
Though I don't even mean events between them and me,
Sometimes one just see's another persons actions and thinks, "Yeah, I don't want to go near that."
Still,
It can be lonely for people in life,
Agh, and I am reminded of goodness by action and memory 'other people towards me,
And seen in people to others.
Eh, better mentally erase that not to interact list, a bit.
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@b9_ntt
If you're interested of more of my views on abortion,
I state some of my views in the below two threads,
Also other people state their views.
In this one, I greatly enjoyed my conversation with Uragirimono,
After not enjoying a conversation with TWS1405.
In this one, I greatly enjoyed my conversation with 3RU7AL, and a few others.
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Hm, 'valuing.
Defining the objects,
Using a value system,
'Focusing the value system.
People perceptions vary,
Value systems vary,
'Way even the same value system is used, varies.
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@TheUnderdog
By that logic,
Does it follow people should pursue the quickest path to wealth, then retire?
Regardless of if Atheist or Theist,
Though I suppose a theist might expect eternity,
Compared to an atheist expecting an end,
Though some atheists believe in immortality after.
Example, military, 20 year then retire,
Or government job 30 years then retire.
Though I think you need to be X age to 'actually get your benefits for retirement?
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@b9_ntt
A human, mouse, and snake,
They all look distinctively different to me.
Certainly there are religious people who believe the soul comes about during conception,
But there's also religious people who believe the soul comes about with breath.
Also a bunch of in between times.
Atheists who believe personhood comes about at conception,
Atheists who believe personhood comes about during childhood experiences.
Also a bunch of in between times.
Religious or Atheist, both can have people who don't care,
Even if they believe the unborn has a soul or personhood,
They may value personal comfort, or a variation of freedom value.
. . .
People's reasons and values vary.
. . .
I don't believe in God,
I value humans,
'Might be you have a point in post #45,
I still need to research,
But currently, I don't care for abortions at any stage.
@NoOneInParticular
Emotion is fallacy 'if,
It makes you ignore other arguments
Not fallacy if you are concerned with virtue ethics rather than consequentialism?
'How human life is valued,
Focus on honor duel culture,
Focus on alive culture,
Course people often pick and choose, various values in head, various scales weighing.
Even for Pro Life,
Abortion can be good if it prevents greater number of unborn and mother deaths,
But such is consequentialism,,
Not focus on individual action?
. . .
Edit, ah wait,
Did I confuse Deontological ethics with Virtue Ethics?
Though I 'like philosophy, I'm not well 'learned in it.
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@b9_ntt
I'm not aware of any birth control that is 100%,
But then even in life, not everything is 100%,
And I imagine there are situations which have a 'possibility of causing harm.
Though choosing 'not to have sex, sounds 100% that there will be X% chance to harm
. . .
Then again,
Driving accidents would be 0% if no one drove,
. .
Then again, again,
People can drink, and think the odds are in their favor of not having an accident, because of past experiences,
Drinking is a pleasure,
While driving is a necessity for many people in the modern age.
. . .
Of the man lying,
I imagine a number of people Pro Life, would see that as the woman not consenting.
I suppose there are people who also 'think themselves infertile,
Which again,
I imagine a number of Pro Life people, would see that as neither consenting.
. . .
Well,
There's 'still people Pro Life,
Who highly value humans,
Especially weak helpless children, (Though such words depend on what one see's the unborn as)
Hence the people who are opposed to abortion,
Even in the cases of rape.
While they may view the pregnancy as a great wrong,
They also view abortion as wrong,
And view carrying the pregnancy to full term and birth, as a lesser wrong,
Than to kill the child. (Again, use of child depends on persons perception of the unborn)
. . .
I use child, weak helpless children,
Because it is descriptive of perception and value.
I understand appeal to emotion can be a fallacy, but I forget why,
So going to Google that after I post this, but still use it here,
Because it speaks to 'why those people act as they do.
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@b9_ntt
Limits to bodily autonomy I suppose,
Specifically when another person is involved.
There are people Pro Choice, who are big on personal freedom, which isn't wrong,
Who see an unborn as an unwelcome parasite.
But the Pro Life view often,
Is that the individual 'chose to invite that individual into their body,
(By the act of consensual sex)
And that it is not right, that they should then kill them.
Which is why you see some people who are Pro Life,
But accepting of people who were raped, choosing to abort.
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@b9_ntt
@TWS1405_2
Another good point,
Possibly because you are correct,
But at the least because I'm unfamiliar with the exact science of human reproduction and development,
So I don't know if you are, Though it 'sounds like you are.
And so another tab on my browser opens up.
Arguably, early term abortions are a middle ground for a number of people Pro Choice or Pro Life.
I've seen you debate this point before,
And am not inclined to add my own view to those against it,
As I think those who have already argued against it, are sufficient.
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@b9_ntt
A fair point.
But if they are not eaten.
A chicken egg develops into a chicken,
A human egg into a human,
Most store bought chicken eggs are not fertilized I think,
And though what a fertilized chicken egg 'looks like,
May depend on development,
A fertilized egg and unfertilized egg, are different I would argue.
Myself I come back to my concern about 'when in development to say 'human.
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@b9_ntt
Ah, yes, the other end of the question,
I confess, I have a harder time having a strong opinion,
The further towards that moment of conception, it gets.
But, I 'still value humans, individual persons,
And does an embryo 'not have it's own unique genetics?
That define it as different than mother or father?
So, still valuing individual humans,
I value 'that unborn as well.
I don't like people freezing embryos for use.
. . .
A more difficult question for me, is valuing personhood 'when,
Of which I am unsure,
Though one doesn't need to be 'religious to believe in a soul,
I don't believe in souls.
. . .
But I do value personhood. loosely though it is defined in my mind.
Certainly my brothers, sister and I, were all different in temperament, preferences, actions, as babies,
My mother says.
I 'think fetuses have differences from one another, in action,
When does this difference of mind appear?
But I am digressing.
. . .
I value humans, and I view humanhood to begin from conception, this is not a religious reason, I think.
I value personhood, and am unsure 'when it begins, thus staying my hand towards abortion further, this also is not religious, I think.
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@Sidewalker
I appreciate this,
A reminder of awareness and continued effort towards continuing to build on what will help him.
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@b9_ntt
I wish this site currently had it's past forum posts feature active,
But ah well, should return in some days.
So being unable to review my past well thought out answers,
I suppose I'll wing it.
. . .
Well, you've not been 'exact on what you mean by abortion,
So I feel free to take an extreme stance,
Though if you become exact, I'll instead address that.
An extreme stance,
A woman who is an hour from a natural abortion in a hospital,
Suddenly decides she doesn't want it,
Saying she doesn't know how she'd take care of it.
. . .
I value humans,
And see the unborn as human.
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@Sidewalker
I appreciate it.
It was a single incident.
I haven't heard of Narcan before,
But will research it as an option.
Thanks,
Though one does what they can, they 'do hope for the luck.
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@b9_ntt
Well, I'm an Atheist and a Materialist,
Who's against abortion,
I think there are.
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@Sidewalker
He's doing okay,
Still has odd memories and thoughts at times,
Cheerful and good natured most of the time, but I think he's depressed about where he is in life.
He gets urine tested ever X days, I forget how many,
No incidents since the air duster,
Recently applied for some jobs,
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I 'do type in a specific way,
Write, restructure,
Separate here, there,
A comma, An apostrophe.
This above I notice, a shape emerges.
But I've no 'rules in mind, set stone,
Though unconscious remembrance, reflex perhaps.
I 'do notice alliteration here,
But am unsure if that be all, or if too, shape, syllable, word usage,
What 'exact people see, I'm not sure.
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@Public-Choice
McCarthy,
Some politician being a lying jack,
Getting people blacklisted and fired,
Had some paper he claimed had a list of Communists.
People eventually had enough and pushed back,
McCarthy found himself politically discredited and shunned.
Did it make people less rabid towards Communism, after feeling they went to far?
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@zedvictor4
Will it 'last though?
"An ostracon (Greek: ὄστρακον ostrakon, plural ὄστρακα ostraka) is a piece of pottery, usually broken off from a vase or other earthenware vessel. In an archaeological or epigraphical context, ostraca refer to sherds or even small pieces of stone that have writing scratched into them. Usually these are considered to have been broken off before the writing was added; ancient people used the cheap, plentiful and durable broken pieces of pottery around them as a convenient medium to write on for a wide variety of purposes, mostly very short inscriptions, but in some cases very long."
I sometimes think about the digital age,
And what will or won't last,
There's so 'much information,
But then,
Has always been a lot of information in history, and lacking means to store it,
Library gets burned down,
Or that warehouse of books is needed for some other purpose.
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@Melcharaz
I was thinking more blue and red mixed together,
But now that I google indigo,
Yeah, that's purple looking.
Somehow I was thinking indigo was light blue greenish color,
Yet surely I 'must have heard and seen indigo before?
Well. . .
I like knowledge and like my passions,
I get a 'bit justice thinking now and then, but it's a brief breeze then gone,
I sacrifice at times, but rare, and usually a sudden passion,
I like power and fame and attention sometimes, but not usually.
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@IlDiavolo
Well, we disagree on the definition of doctrine as well.
Cultures, communities, nations,
Have values, curriculums that they brainwash the new generation with,
I don't mean that word negatively,
It's simply descriptive, to my thinking.
Living more freely. . .
I don't know,
Someone being a Christian,
Doesn't make them unfree, I think.
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@IlDiavolo
I do not disagree that the West was/is influenced by Greece and Rome,
"Historical democracies with state sponsored religious laws:"
But, do you deny the influence of Christianity upon the west?
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@IlDiavolo
Third definition "law : a principle of law established through past decisions"
Fifth definition "something that is taught"
I don't think I am,
Though I'd be willing to agree that many people use your definition,
Which is also in the link, but I'm in a rush, need to get to bed.
"The Ten Commandments form the basis of Jewish law,"
Religion, laws and cultural norms, often go hand in hand I'd argue.
I ask again,
How do you define religion?
Not because I'm trying to corner you, but because I don't understand your view.
Goodnight for now though.
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@FLRW
Bah,
People have a view,
They clump into a group,
Ingroup, Outgroup,
What is valued, what is reviled.
The French Cult of Reason, pf,
Off with everyone's heads,
Who be against the revolution.
The Russians,
Gulag the believers, and any opposed.
The Chinese,
Destroy the temples and all our old culture,
In with the new, which you aren't allowed to question.
. . .
Disregard the accomplishments, contributions, and thought of religious thinkers,
How like yo-
Bah.
I don't disregard Atheist achievements,
But your one-sidedness bothers me.
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@IlDiavolo
In my view,
People and societies indoctrinate,
It doesn't matter if theist or atheist.
The law is in force,
Be it a parent, or government,
They have rules, expectations.
Says the parent,
I need to explain to my kid why he can't kick other kids.
Says the government,
This is the law.
. . .
I could use the word teach,
If you take indoctrination to mean without question,
Though even with the negative definition,
The law is in force.
. . .
Certainly it is a new era,
Technological changes, societal changes,
Though I am confused by your refrain of religion as the problem.
Your profile says Buddhism,
Though it's possible your definition of religion is not as wide as mine.
. . .
How do you define religion?
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@IlDiavolo
Certainly Christianity has roots that go deep into time,
But arguably each new branch also starts when they are founded,
Even today, new views of Christianity, Churches, are founded.
Theories of medicine go back further even than the Greek physician Hippocrates,
But that the roots are deep in time, does not prevent our use of them.
It is for individuals to decide, I'd argue,
Whether they believe Jesus is God,
Or his mother a virgin.
Indoctrination exists,
But this is unavoidable,
Even if we abandoned our young in the woods, to formulate themselves,
It would have been a choice of inaction, also a choice of forest.
People will raise their heirs as wards as they think is right, and as they are allowed by community.
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@IlDiavolo
I would argue people are 'easily still able to use many religions as allegory, partial, or aesthetic,
I'd argue many do now, as well as in the past.
I'd argue religion has many examples of logic, observation, and game theory,
Take for example,
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Or Ox Mountain,
Mencius said, "The woods on Ox Mountain were once beautiful! On account of its being on the edge of a large country, it had been attacked with axes and hatchets, and then how could it remain beautiful? The refreshing breezes of day and night, and the moisture provided by rain and fog, did not fail to give rise to sprouts of vegetation. But cows and sheep have been repeatedly pastured there, and for that reason it has remained desolate. People observe its denuded state and assume that it never had any good resources. But how could this state be the true nature of this mountain?" — Mencius, 6A:8
Mencius argued that "bad" human natures were produced just as the bad condition of Ox Mountain had been produced, so the answer to "bad" humans was to protect and nurture them from birth. He also thought that punishment does not do much good. It does not cure the root of the problem.
. . .
Lastly, I question,
If religion makes a claim of what existence is, how it came about, what we ought do,
How becomes this different from any other claimant?
For what reason is there a 'church of Humanism or a humanism Chaplin?
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@IlDiavolo
How will this be 'different than religion?
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@BrotherD.Thomas
That we or our loved ones are capable of evil,
Yet remain loved,
This consideration only need be extended to others,
For who is without sin?
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@FLRW
It 'can be a 'sign of low emotional intelligence,
Doesn't mean that it is certain.
Understanding, isn't the same as action.
. . .
Let's say there's a person who often interrupts, bullies, or insults others,
It's quite possible that they have a low understanding or perception of other people.
This might be seen if they are surprised that other's become angry at them, or dislike them.
This surprise would show their obliviousness,
As you say low intelligence.
Perhaps they blame other's, for the situation,
Rather than accept responsibility,
Again, such may show a lack of awareness of themself and environment.
Perhaps they have difficulties in cooperation,
Showing a lack of restraint and understanding of give and take advantages.
But I still argue that understanding is different from action.
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@FLRW
Well, I 'have heard people argue about what 'qualifies as IQ before.
Certainly there exist animals capable of actions and mental tricks that we are not.
But what do you mean by intelligence?
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@IlDiavolo
Well, that depends on how you define religion.
And even then, I'm not expecting the old religions to disappear anytime soon.
I'd agree love is an emotion,
But I can also view it 'expressed as behavior,
An action one experiences from or to others, influences.
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@FLRW
How do you mean?
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@TheUnderdog
A third solution would be to kill and kick out the people of the other side,
Likely the solution some of them want,
Not that I'm advocating for it.
. . .
Some would so they never left,
Though other's might argue other groups became majorities over time,
Christians during Crusades, Muslims during Ottoman expansion.
. . .
Though Odysseus was long away from home,
I don't imagine he saw his house or wife as belonging to those partying in there.
Not that I'm advocating for anything,
When someone's parent and parents parents have lived somewhere,
They look to it as much their own,
For the Palestinians I mean,
Though, whether they are 'all 'so set up and not immigrating to the location. . .
Rather than,
Kicked out by this or that Arab country,
For use as pawns.
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@Greyparrot
You forgot about the German Americans and Italian Americans,
Also the Mexicans, they probably want Texas back,
We probably messed their country up some with the War,
More money.
Ah, then there's Hawaii,
...
Ooh, then there's also just 'cultures, rather than blood people.
Lot of laws against atheists in our history,
Maybe they should be given money as well,
Indoctrinate kids in school until every belief is of equal proportion in the population.
Not that I mean indoctrinate badly,
It's just a fact of human rearing.
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I consider loyalty an admirable trait in others,
Least when I'm looking for solidarity/support in them.
Or even just admiring something beautiful/admirable/respectable in others,
Even myself some days.
That trust I have in immediate family, close friends,
To meet challenges and other groups, situations in life 'with.
Though that's not to say loyalty to another group or ideal is wrong.
People are often part of 'many connected groups, ideals, conflicting loyalty.
And certainly leaders can lose loyalty from their followers,
If the leaders actions show themself unworthy.
. . .
But still, I have an admiration of people who stick by in foul weather,
Though this is not the same as blind loyalty,
Unconditional love, unconditional loyalty, spring to mind,
Though of course they 'have conditions, but they are meant as 'strong versions of their definitions.
Still,
One 'could see it as loyalty, to refuse to 'find the votes Trump wanted,
Not really going to help Trump get elected in my view, just make the situation worse,
Besides, not good for Trumps soul either. Poetically speaking.
. . .
Good as I normally use it, anyhow.
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I maintain my view that guns in America are not the problem.
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@Melcharaz
I'm doing as well as a boat on a lazy river.
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@Best.Korea
Hopefully,
I liked reading mine and other people's comments, forum posts.
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@Skipper_Sr
I don't see my forum posts in my profile,
Though I see my created forum topics.
Qualifications is nice.
My profile picture looks a bit blurry now, I 'think.
I'm not a fan of it so far.
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