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@EtrnlVw
I think SkepticalOne, has a point with "Depends on what god it is"
It's a very 'wide definition, to many of us,
Various afterlife's and religious realities, vague, lacking clarity.
Though I think there's a clarion call in the emotions, desires of others.
Good or ill.
That's a bit of a contradiction for me to say.
Religions, beliefs, values, passion, right and wrong,
People often feel the pull and push of, yet have difficulty enunciating the particulars.
I'm rambling.
. . .
Hypothetically, if I found singular or various Gods, afterlives, or realities to exist,
I might attempt to look for a way to profit from it,
Whether in my own life, or in acquiring power at large.
When I say profit, I mean improve my situation, so to speak,
Which could be something such as finding inner peace,
. . Or power over my surroundings.
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@ebuc
Tattoo ink would bother me less than a mandatory vaccine shot.
Though I've no tattoos myself.
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@TheUnderdog
Sure, one might prefer to be an independent, opposed to slavery.
But my 'guess, is that factions in politics follows roughly the same logic as factions of countries and arms.
Groups are able to enforce their will.
We all speak Americ- er, English in the USA (Mostly), have similar culture, environment, values repeated about.
Though 'maybe an American low/middle/high class is more similar to a (Insert Country) low/middle/high class,
Than an American high/middle/low class, I couldn't say.
Still, at a guess,
An American is probably more similar to someone from Britain, than someone from Afghanistan. Nation, not Ethnicity, I mean.
Not 'necessarily homeschool, but seems to me that people ought take an interest in their kids education,
Preferring their kids be educated by the values they think are right.
Whether it's a public school, private school, private tutor, parents themselves.
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@ebuc
Just numbers, fail to give me a sense of perspective, or scale.
'Personally, I don't have a good grasp of understanding of Covid, but if I owned a store, or was in charge of a school.
I'd likely mandate masks myself, currently.
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@Reece101
Logically, race realism is the product of (Insert various races here).
I would think.
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Personally, to me this sounds more like a post mocking religion,
Than an honest attempt at truth or understanding,
All posts like this do is drive genuine religious folk 'away from DART.
Better off in the artistic section, since there's no humor section.
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I remember a number of video games when I was young, where the cutscenes were live action.
I wonder what if any modern video games are the same.
. . .
Hm, Red Alert 3 I suppose.
But somehow that example feels like cheating.
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@Fruit_Inspector
How consistently must a person lie before we stop trusting them completely? - Fruit_Inspector
I'm unsure.
Fool me once, shame one you, fool me twice shame on me,
Is common saying.
Though people are often fooled more than twice, I think.
If a person has lost our trust to some degree, how can they earn it back? - Fruit_Inspector
Being dependable in action, and truthful in word, over an undetermined amount of time.
It's an uphill struggle, usually, I'd say.
Maybe person is unlikely to 'ever regain trust of level formerly had.
'Maybe they manage to gain 'greater trust than before.
How can we discern when a liar is telling the truth? - Fruit_Inspector
Common sense and logic, by knowledge of the individual, what they say.
Alternatively by verification of proof.
What biases might we have that make us want to continue trusting the liar, even after he/she has shown no commitment to telling the truth? - Fruit_Inspector
Familial love,
Friendship,
Importance of the task we want done that we risk the possible lie.
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@3RU7AL
Quite probable, for a number of them.
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@3RU7AL
They don't 'necessarily 'want to live in the 'USA.
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@MarkWebberFan
I'm a bit rambling.
The way I see it, 'most anyone who chooses to immigrate to the USA, ends up being assimilated, well enough eventually. May be some hiccups, but I believe in the strength of our nation and laws.
Though there's likely 'flaws in my perspective,
I don't see the difference between refusing entry to someone for being a Muslim, and refusing entry to someone for being of Black ethnicity.
'NOT because these are the same thing, I'm not saying all Blacks are Muslims.
I might as well have said,
I don't see the difference between refusing entry to someone for being a Odin worshiper, and refusing entry to someone for being of Inuit ethnicity.
I'm referring to the underlying categorization,
Refusal to someone under the claim of them not being Our Kind.
My current view of America, is apparently we take people of near any stripe, so long as they acknowledge the supremacy of our system and laws.
Though not through a 'forever en masse.
There's a difference between a specific wave, and a 'permanent open faucet, such as exists from south of America.
I can appreciate letting in the Vietnamese Boat People, or a number of Afghans who supported our nation.
It's the difference between keeping a stable population, secure borders, and being beholden to a group.
To my mind, it's shameful of America, lacking in honor, to ignore those it's taken responsibility for, by 'putting them in said position in the first place.
If America was a 'closed sort of state, believed and acted on discriminatory creeds, of race, religion, or culture. I'd think different.
I'd still believe that honor required we provide for them, but I'd not think we ought accept them into our nation.
But we 'don't live in 'such a closed state, so far as I can tell, only part we insist on, is they follow our laws.
One could argue the Europeans, Germans for example, are mad, to dilute their culture and people, as they have.
But America is a society of mutts, that insists on political and law, not other discriminations.
No significant organizations that I know of, exist in America, that insist upon purity of religion or race.
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@thett3
I suppose I don't immediately see a responsibility to move them 'specifically to the United States,
But the Invasion and War in Afghanistan,
'Still implies to me, a responsibility to do 'something.
And by 'something, I mean more than our prayers are with you,
Or here are some boxes of MREs we didn't use,
Though I don't think those are the actions you are suggesting.
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@thett3
A sense of responsibility, due to power and actions taken.
Though if they wanted to immigrate to 'other countries, that were more similar to their values, it would fulfill our responsibilities, to help them move there instead.
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@Greyparrot
I cede victory of the family living argument, to you,
Though I am not convinced of your point, myself.
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@drlebronski
Can't you see the connection between not having the right to sell their house, and no longer having the privilege to vote?
Do I next need explain why blind people lose the right to drive cars?
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@Greyparrot
@drlebronski
So, you're 'fine with my buying the house of an individual with schizophrenia, alzheimer's, dementia,
And selling it out from under them,
As they are clearly (sarcasm) understanding the situation, and capable of making decisions,
No need for society to protect them from themselves and others?
Funny, though 100 years ago, 'more people might have lived 'with their parents, depending on culture.
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@drlebronski
There is a reason 'other than the arbitrary age age 18,
18 is choses for 'blurry, but 'real reasoning,
And I think you know this.
By your logic, I should be able to contract individuals with schizophrenia, alzheimer's, dementia,
Buy their property, sell it out from under them,
If they are such individuals, capable of managing their affairs as coherent agents.
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@drlebronski
Do you think a baby in a cradle, unable to pronounce a word, ought have the right to vote in that instant in life?
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@drlebronski
There's a blurry line between citizen, and ward of the state, often they're the same thing. Perhaps.
Let's say that an individual had incurable schizophrenia, or alzheimer's.
I would not consider them competent to vote either.
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@drlebronski
I think the edit is an improvement, as it makes explanation of a difference of skin and genetics/dna.
If people were 'truly trying to follow some eugenics program to increase body or brain functions in humans.
I'm 'doubtful, they'd care about 'skin, so much as other factors.
. . .
Unless the improvement to body or brain was focusing on improving melatonin for specific environments, in which case I 'think, but don't know,
That higher and lesser amounts 'both, have positives and negatives, depending on environment.
. . .
Though 'really, I 'think eugenics just means,
the study of how to arrange reproduction within a human population to increase the occurrence of heritable characteristics regarded as desirable.
So if a groups goal was (Insert skin color) because they just didn't aesthetically or culturally 'like the other options of skin color, then it'd make sense.
But for 'improving the brain or body of humans,
Skin color, doesn't seem that integral to me.
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@drlebronski
Never looked into it myself, so I couldn't say.
All I know is certain breeds of dogs are more intelligent than other breeds of dogs,
And that people claim 'physical differences exist in groups of human races.
So myself, I'm arguing for the underlaying logic, than any proof.
Even if it were something as simple as a group of people having higher testosterone. (Not any real group in particular)
Such a physical difference, would lead to differences in experience in how one handles situations,
Builds up habits,
Habits can influence intellect and choices in life.
Or if people can have genetic probabilities, such as sickle cell, or lactose intolerance.
I see little reason schizophrenia might not apply,
And by this we see genetics/dna, effecting everything material in a human, same as animals.
.
Thus there's underlaying 'logic of people who claim mental difference in race,
I'm not saying that logic is right, wrong, based in fact or not.
Mainly as I don't care much myself.
Just pointing out, Muscle is material, brain is material, additionally the brain is 'effected by other material in the human body, as I said testosterone, which can effect ability, or habit.
. . .
"but if a white person and a black person both have the same experiences there entire life there would likely still be differences not due to the fact that hes black but ancestry and different dna etc." - drlebronski"as for sports yes it is true black people tend to be athletes." - drlebronski
As can be seen by your post,
black people tend to be athletes." - drlebronski
Even if earlier you say
"not due to the fact that hes black but ancestry and different dna etc." - drlebronski
People get used to looking at dna/genetics, through physical appearance,
For a reason of course, as appearance is 'linked to dna/genetics.
Black, White, just easy terms we use of category,
Though people of the 'same skin color, often have differences, based on where they've developed in the world over the years.
Eh, I'm rambling, with little to say.
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@drlebronski
I'm not saying I think or think not that blacks are better athletes.
But if someone thought or claimed that (Insert Group) were superior athletes.
Why is it inconceivable that there'd be brain differences between groups?
Though, I don't really think 'black or 'white is a 'genetic group, myself. Since 'black or 'white is 'just skin color.
There's plenty of white dogs of 'various breeds.
The 'color, not being so much in play in their genetics, body shape, and brain, as 'other factors.
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@3RU7AL
Well, be nice if it could calculate a way to extend my life, I suppose.
Through science.
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@3RU7AL
A person with eyes and ears, a mouth. .
Is not 'much able to effect the world.
I don't need maximum profit.
Just a small profit, would be sufficient for me to then make my own efforts.
Maybe not, maybe so.
If the computer is better at humans, at predicting it.
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@n8nrgmi
Other than his vote in 2002, giving Bush authority to use force in Iraq, I've no blame that I attribute Biden for Afghanistan.
And even that blame, is spread about multiple people, and extenuating circumstances.
If the Taliban are still a powerful force in the region,
If the government we supported is a weak force in the region,
Then we've been playing our cards wrong for years and years,
Not the short time of Biden's presidency.
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@3RU7AL
Actions that would profit me, such as predicting the stock market.
Actions that would prevent it from ever being able to physically 'do anything, or acquire power.
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@3RU7AL
I don't quite understand what the post is asking?
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@TheUnderdog
I mean this for instance, if one was opposed to slavery, they'd find it 'painful, to live in the South of America, during slavery.
Difficult to their conscience, to raise their children 'amongst such a society, even if they taught them against slavery.
The kids'd still be influenced, maybe change gears for the worse, adopt customs you don't like.
It's make sense to be part of a political party, that aimed towards removing slavery.
You say it's not hypocritical, well I disagree.
. . .
The two options are 'quite feasible, and have already been in action for. . . ever?
People already live in communities where others are more or less like them.
And it's 'easy enough, to move and form communities of like minded individuals, if the matter 'matters to them.
Of eradication, perhaps I should have used a different word,
Or perhaps the Confederates 'were genocided, if you want to insist upon culture of a people changing, as genocide.
"Americans are similar enough in values that we form a nation," - Lemming"This is false. Name one American value that every single American supports and nobody outside of America supports. Many of our values are shared by Canada, a separate nation. There are no such thing as exclusive American values." - TheUnderdog
Oneself being American, of the United States variety.
Joke aside, we've formed an identity, a system of shared values, though we still disagree a fair bit.
Just the way of cultures.
It's self evident.
Though I'll think about it and explain it if you insist again.
"Because if your a Republican, having your kid educated by a democrat teacher is easier than educating them yourself". - TheUnderdog
Such an action is lazy and immoral.
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@drlebronski
What should our response to 9/11, have been?
(I'm not saying that war in Iraq and Afghanistan, were the response we should have taken, just curious of your thoughts)
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@TheUnderdog
Two thoughts in my head, revolving around incompatible ideas.
Say slavery, no slavery, abortion, Anti-abortion, or big intrusive government, little government, the draft, so on, so forth.
It's hypocritical, galling, to live side by side with people who practice customs that one considers morally and ethically wrong.
There's two options,
One, is separation, people living in groups that practice life, as they see right.
Two, is eradication, whether in a mixed or separated society.
I think in the end, eradication comes about, if the values diverge far enough.
But even if they're diverging a 'fair bit.
Why live with people that practice a way of life that one considers immoral?
Sure there's tolerance,
To a 'degree.
It's like a classroom of students murmuring amongst one another,
Some vaguely defined level of noise, where it's too much, and the teacher screams at everyone to shut up.
. . .
But of course there 'is a measure of disagreement in society.
But does it make 'sense, to form tight knit groups with individuals that one disagrees on values with?
Americans are similar enough in values that we form a nation,
But why should we form 'smaller associations with 'everyone?
We shouldn't, I think.
Well. . . .
Actually I don't 'much care about politics. . .
Was just getting caught up in the speech of the moment. . .
For people with values though, I don't see why they'd want their children influenced unduly by people of opposing values.
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@drlebronski
I don't think he's saying that in post #53.
I think he's saying that the genetic makeup of a people, effect their actions/policies.
And making his case towards his OP claim race realism, or recognition of differences.
. . .
In response to your post though.
Would it be unreasonable for parents, or a society, to discourage their children or people, from breeding with an individual or people, recognized to have a genetic makeup that is seen as a weakening of the individual?
. . .
Then again, I 'think genetics vary widely in groups of people, if there's many of them.
Plenty of dumb (White/Black/Asian/Hispanic/So On) and plenty of intelligent (White/Black/Asian/Hispanic/So On)
And a Eugenic society wouldn't discriminate 'so much on race, as individuals, I'd 'think.
Since if a society was super anti lactose intolerance, they would prefer an Asian with no lactose intolerance, to a white guy 'with lactose intolerance, I'd think?
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@secularmerlin
Societies have changed in the past,
Are still experiencing change in the present,
Will change in the future.
. . .
Also, given the amount of clout you're attributing to technology and automation,
Amount of land 'needed, might shrink, given right technology, or lifestyle.
@NoOneInParticular
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@TheMorningsStar
If individuals can believe in monotheism with the trinity, why can't all these other Gods 'still be the 'One God.
Romans didn't seem bothered by other societies Gods having different names, often enough I hear, they just claimed they were actually their Gods, just with different names.
Even with multiple religious experiences, what 'matters in the argument to most people, is that to them it implies 'something more.
Though maybe if Baal lit the fire in the Bible, some people would be conflicted.
Though, maybe not,
Given how the Prince of Egypt (1998) Film, compared the Court Magicians Miracles to those of the Hebrew God.
@NoOneInParticular
Omniquantism
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@TheUnderdog
I think I'd rather people 'separate more into localized societies,
Where the law reflects their values,
Than compromise principles 'too much.
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@zedvictor4
Well, to myself, Utopia, or Perfection, just doesn't mesh with the human condition.
It's not bad to strive for a better life than what one currently has.
But my Utopia, perhaps is not yours,
Or our forefathers, and their fathers, so on.
So, by this, I mean I think Utopia even for an individual, unachievable,
And that for 'generations, their values do not always match.
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@oromagi
People 'do want better search engines, I'd say.
And will want such 'more as the internet continues to expand.
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@zedvictor4
There is no capital P 'Purpose, no capital G 'Goal,
To my thinking.
But we 'are, we're material animate,
Human, have love and hate,
Dreams born of nature, nurture, and the chance niche river valleys, channels, existence has cut through,
So we bob along the waters, along our courses.
Hm, incoherent. . .
Anyway,
Individuals have their goals, and will make their way towards them.
Groups will more often than less act with good, reciprocity, intelligent recognition. Maybe.
Though some groups and individuals may indeed, find certain individuals and groups, redundant.
If we have device, maybe we don't need 'such innovation, as people find what works, improve upon.
Technology and comfort, ethics, is improved compared to the past, seems to me.
Utopian, though?
. . .
Well, maybe society can find enough to eat, enough to educate, enough to not harm one another too much.
It's not utopia,
But 'might be realistic.
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@zedvictor4
Must it be?
I'd suppose society,
Could develop into big government and socialism, which I don't like, personally.
Could develop into medium government, where people can produce all they need in their own land and homes.
Could continue as we are, just finding new jobs, wants of individuals and society.
. . .
Population though,
I don't know how that'll play out.
I suppose I have minor worry about politics, war technology, and social changes.
Which 'might turn into something bad for me, but maybe not.
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@drlebronski
It 'is frustrating, when one can't access scientific articles, studies, statistics, and books, without shilling out some cash.
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@Reece101
Fair point, though regardless,
The British had an obligation to the Tories in America,
The Americans to the South Koreans who supported them.
What action 'follows such an obligation, I've not thought deeply on,
I suppose my mind first goes to 'acknowledging that it exists.
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@secularmerlin
What is considered traditional employment varies, in different times and places.
Though I suppose, 'most of the time, and any time I've heard,
It's 'still employment towards providing physiological and safety needs.
Food, water, shelter, property, personal security.
Sure there's people who work by making sugar cakes, or video games, neither of which 'provide physiological and safety needs, to the customer.
But 'does give the worker money, by which he purchases physiological and safety needs.
Hm, no 'human society/nation, comes immediately to my mind, who 'provided for physiological and safety needs, with 'very little need for the inhabitants to work.
Though I think a billionaire or few millionaires 'could make such a city.
Where much is automated, and machines actually 'do cut the work day down.
'Still be a 'need to work society though.
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@drlebronski
'Bit of a problem 'once involved though.
A question of morals/ethics, I'm not sure which.
But if USA destroys infrastructure and society,
Or if citizens in region support USA involvement and policies, puts those citizens in danger, if we leave them in the lurch.
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@secularmerlin
Heh, that experiment 'is what was on my mind.
Also Jordan Peterson and Viktor E. Frankl.
Peterson, as I think he says 'something or other about people needing to devote their energy to something.
Frankl, as I 'know he says something about people needing to devote their energy to something.
"I published a study devoted to a specific type of depression I had diagnosed in cases of young patients suffering from what I called unemployment neurosis. And I could show that this neurosis really originated in a twofold erroneous identification:
Being jobless was equated with being useless, and being useless was equated with having a meaningless life. Consequently, whenever I succeeded in persuading the patients to volunteer in youth organizations, adult education, public libraries and the like-
In other words, as soon as they could fill their abundant free time with some sort of unpaid but meaningful activity-
Their depression disappeared although their economic situation had not changed and their hunger was the same.
The truth is that man does not live by welfare alone."
- Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search For Meaning
@Topic
I assume, maybe incorrectly, that people gripe less about a wealthy individual being unemployed, as one might assume they have not the 'need to work.
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@TheUnderdog
I agree, just being loyal to a 'name of a party, is not ideal.
But forming groups, to pursue goals, longtime part of social animals.
Though,
There 'is a reason that religions/churches, often splinter into many different denominations.
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Is a time and place where all is provided, safeguarded, Heaven or Hell, I wonder.
Offhand thought, sparked by topic.
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Afghanistan, Taliban taking over, says the news, America trying to claim it's not abandoning anyone, has the look of Vietnam again.
An embarrassing failed war,
Saddam aside.
But that's what you get sometimes, with vaguely defined wars.
I suppose.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Well, I have heard of team spirit, fighting spirit, spirited individuals.
That is to say, lively individuals.
People mindfully active in existence, is it, your definition of spirituality?
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@EtrnlVw
Thanks for the words.
I'll admit intuition has value, but I'm sure you'll admit yourself that it's not everything.
We have different conclusions, of what amounted to evidence over the years, I think.
I'll also admit there is often value in having an open ear to ideas, even those one disagree with.
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