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@whiteflame
Yeah, I can definitely see some room for arguing that the ending could have better utilized what it had built upon throughout. I like that he was able to find his spark again, but it's only a matter of time until he's in the same rut.It's hard to classify it as a Christmas or Halloween movie, exclusively. It definitely has pieces of both, but I'd say it leans into the latter more than the former. As for what it is, I'd just say it's a lot of fun and leave it at that.
Exactly my feelings at the end. But definitely a lot of fun and I can see why it is so iconic.
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@Lunatic
@whiteflame
for my review, I thought it was interesting. I don't really think it was a Christmas movie, nor a Halloween movie. Good movie, but I wish that it could have ended with Jack being able embrace the joy of Christmas and incorporating that into Halloween Town
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@Lunatic
My wife found out in talking about this game that I had never seen Nightmare Before Christmas so she is insisting I watch tonight.
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@Elminster
Connor rides my ass all the time over how I chose to play mafia. I just ignore him and keep doing my thing. I think where you lose people is drawing a line from them disagreeing with you and connect it to "I'm a woman".
I was not saying that people disagreed with me on my reads because I am a woman. To the contrary, I said Tuf strikes me as someone that is very respectful of women. That comment about gender bias was in response to Tuf's perception/sensitivity to my expressions of game related frustrations or anger and especially as it relates to live mafia. The fact is people literally curse each other out, call people fvcking idiots, go batshit, and belittle other players throughout the game and in endgame in every game, when they disagree or just out of random annoyances with the game. This behavior of screaming at players into submission, being belligerent and overly antagonistic/aggressive is especially prevalent in live mafia. Yet, when I engage in behavior similar, though not to the same degree, it evokes a different response and stands out. It is perceived as personal or emotional.
I stand by the fact that this differentiated reception/perception of the behavior is very much gendered, and that is something I am sure Danielle would confirm, having had private discussions about how annoying that differentiation is and how I would be better off playing into the gendered bias by softening my approach for the sake of game enjoyment, even if the differentiation is unreasonable and due to unconscious bias.
That said, I am happy this thread has brought entertainment to your day. :-)
That said, I am happy this thread has brought entertainment to your day. :-)
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@Lunatic
If I seem anticipatorily defensive of you, it's because your behavior towards me in the game suggested you probably were gonna do exactly what you did. The entire game you kept saying the same thing about no one listening to you and undermining you when I was trying my hardest to show you that I WAS listening to you even though I didn't agree with you on the point about whiteflame.
You simultaneously acknowledge my frustration at no one listening to me then make it seem personal to you. Anyone would be frustrated to be right about reads and not be able to convince enough town. It wasn't personal, and I also said I needed to work on how to better argue my reads since convincing town is important. You seem to be be reading personal issues and emotion into things that aren't there. I find this interesting since so many players do crazy irrational, seemingly emotional things on the regular including regularly rage quitting or sabotaging the game when people don't do exactly what they say, yet you do not seem to have the same concerns about this. I do not behave this way, yet you are now expressing some weird concern with my "emotional" behavior. It is worth exploring why that double standard is.
I've seen you blow off the handle at mikal in live mafia for example. Normally mikal doesn't just sit idly and let people throw insults at him like that, but we make an exception for you because we like you. I think you get angry or flustered very easily.
The fact that you are referencing Mikal here demonstrates the point for me. Maybe it's a woman thing, I dunno, but Mikal is a prime example of a player who flies off the handle in the game and will willingly blow up a game if people simply do not listen to him or lynch his chosen target. I think he would acknowledge it and laugh about it, and from what I have seen he does the same thing in forum. The fact is y'all constantly yell at each other and get super aggressive, call each other idiots, go on aggressive diatribes and tangents, but the moment I do something remotely similar or express the slightest frustration, everyone is like "woah woah chill." I think it's a gendered thing. It is something I have discussed with danielle, because i don't get the double standard. But nonetheless it's unfair and frustrating.
The very first game I played with you for example, you wanted to quit when we got into it. I realized at that point I have to be less aggressive than normal when playing with you, because winning as scum wasn't more important than actually having a player that reads and contributes and isn't lazy. I try to stick to that with you when we play live mafia, and in forum mafia....especially since you just said you don't like playing forum games because of our reactions to you. It's like walking on egg shells.
The reality is, game is game. I don't actually take any of it personally, until people make it personal like they have in this thread. I get frustrated like everyone, get annoyed with balance issues like everyone, but for some reason it is met negativity when I do it. In that lovers game we are referencing you used semi-personal attacks in the game as a tactic to discredit my read of you as scum, since you were scum. I literally said in that game that I hoped you were scum and this was a psychological tactic, because if so I would respect it, clearly indicating my belief that game is game. I think that the reality is you're probs a nice guy IRL who is honorable and believes you should treat woman with a certain level of decorum and consideration. I think it is this sense of honor that makes you more sensitive to potentially frustrating, angering, enraging, or upsetting a woman during a game of psychological manipulation. But I have never expected nor acted like I should be treated less aggressively than other players. However, I also expect to be allowed to be enraged, frustrated, annoyed, petty, and sore at times, just like every player I have played this game with. Whether those reactions are authentic or contrived.
You've always been a player I have respect for, but based on your description of me it doesn't seem you enjoy playing mafia with me, which is totes fine. Mafia isn't very important to me, and I only joined this game and the last game because danielle asked. I don't need to keep playing.
The whole game you STILL kept saying I was undermining you or disrespecting your read, etc etc. Forgive me for not knowing the line of tongue and cheek jokes vs you being serious,
Again, I need to clarify that I have no issue with disagreeing on reads. We are town and have to be inherently suspicious of each other. Reads are hard. I take issue with being told, especially in endgame that I 'stumbled on' my 'baseless' reads with no logical grounds. Suggesting an articulated read was discovered by chance, very much is a dig at the skill and quality of a player.
For all the talk of asshole behaviors, I think gloating over being right takes the cake in most cases.
I never said I told you so or gloated. You and others started off by immediately making numerous comments about my reads being baseless and invalid even though they "happen" to be right, like some broken clock I responded in defense to these insulting statements by noting my reads were not baseless and that it is insulting to try and discredit them instead of think hmm maybe this human isn't an idiot and came to these conclusions for logical reasons.
I maintain my position about whiteflame, though that you were scum reading him for a behavior he uses as town. If you want to see that as an insult, that's your perogative.
I have no problem with your disagreement on whiteflame, I take issue with you implying my read was baseless tunnelling and that I stumbled onto a read without any valuable analysis. Something you implied multiple times throughout this thread, as well as others, not just in comments to me but in exchanges with other players. It is rude. I respect you as a player and if you nail reads in a game and I turn out to be wrong you can bet your ass I am going to be like "Tuf, what did you see that I didn't" and not imply that a broken clock is correct even once a day.
I did congratulate you on being right, and I still do, even if I dis-agreed with your reasons.
I thanked you and acknowledged you for that. Thank you again.
You called me out before any real congratulations could be made. Also like I said, I expected you to do what you did, so I wanted to wait and see how humble you were going to act before giving you a compliment.
I didn't call you out, I said you are at equal blame for the loss as water. Because it's not fair to put that on water. The lynch was rushed and no time was given to assessing what motive a scum water would have to lie about Pie, a widely townread player, knowing Pie could turn around and contradict him immediately as a living player. if he was fake claiming he could have just ended his results with "I saw speedrace visit Supa." No need to bring Pie into it. So while I do think Water's miss-claim was hurtful to town, it was not the largest factor in the loss. Scum's play in that DP was very good, so water was simply outmatched.
Strange, when you call someone out that they don't come groveling to you and praising you. Aren't we humans odd? *sigh*
I don't know what you're talking about, I never expected groveling or praise, I expected you not to imply that I came to the conclusions on my accurate reads based on faulty logic or essentially chance.
Let's be fair here, and credit that was given to whiteflame was also you calling him a liar as he was literally telling you he would have acted the same way as town. In giving him credit for a mafia game, you stole credit from him as a human. Not sure the pay off is there.
This is a game and he is a player in it. I was explaining a phenomena in the game that is hard to recognize, something I am pretty sure (could be wrong) that you explained to me years ago. I, in end game ,was convinced I played super townie and couldn't understand why certain players read me scum since I was certain I was playing very consistent with my town meta. I believe you pointed out that I was scum so no matter what, every action is colored by my knowledged perspective and a motivation that is not the same as towns. I believe you also said, the very fact that I was reflecting on my behavior and whether it was consistent with my town meta, is a scum exercise in itself. I read Whiteflame as scum as did a few others. There is nothing dehumanizing in me noting that he should not assume he plays 100% consistent as town and scum, since the probability of same is small and it will deprive him of an opportunity to reflect on what stood out to people to improve his scum play next time. Notably, danielle identified some inconsistencies between his town v. scum play styles. At the same time I acknowledged that in the end his playstile convinced enough people which is a win.
Notably, I offered this positive feedback in response to comments by him, in exchange with you, implying that I stumbled onto the right answer but had no valid basis for doing so.
Notably, I offered this positive feedback in response to comments by him, in exchange with you, implying that I stumbled onto the right answer but had no valid basis for doing so.
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@ILikePie5
come join the fun Mr. You Should Not Shoot NP1 as Vigilante
why not? is that SOP? I was happy with this play. It had a pretty big town benefit.
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@Lunatic
Dude are you kidding?
1) I didn't attack, nor blame you. I defended water from your attempt to put undue emphasis or blame on him. I said you are equally to blame. That is not me solely blaming you. There are multiple reasons we lost the game including balance, bad luck, water's fake claim, good moves at pushing/rushing the DP2 lynch by scum, and refusal to give weight to my reads (for whatever reason) etc. You seem to have come into the endgame feeling anticipatorily defensive of me then read my post which was more about how much waters should be blamed than you as validation of your need to be defense and responsively antagonistic.
2) the use of asshole in the game was tongue and cheek and is not at all relevant to what is being said in this thread.
3) I have never acted as god. I have asked for constructive feedback on how to better argue my perspective and instead you and others feel the need to instead imply my reads were baseless, idiotic, illogical, worthless, foundationless/factless tunneling etc. It is very much demeaning for people to be doing this and is especially disappointing that you would. Even now saying "I too have been right for the wrong reasons." Like wtf is that? Multiple people, including danielle have said my reads and reasoning were sound, yet your instinct is to undercut it. I even said in the game that getting people to actually vote for my reads isn't a strength, humbling myself to the fact that I need improvement in that regard, yet you cannot just say "you know what magic good call, heres how you can argue it differently next time, or I need to look back at my own play and reflect on how I missed X and why I couldn't be convinced by you." All I know is if roles were reversed I would be like holy shit Tuf, how TF did you know?! I would never try to invalidate you in the manner multiple people are attempting to invalidate me here.
4) I have given credit to multiple players, including Pie and Whiteflame, so I am not acting superior nor asking for credit. Instead my defenses of my play are in direct response to attempts to imply my reads were nonsense, in spite of being right.
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@Bullish
Magic, I literally offered to buddy you at the beginning of DP1. And here in the endgame thread we literally both scum read the same person for the same reason. And then the moment I said you derailed your own wagon which by the functional history of the wagon you did, the conversation devolves. A normal person would have just said "oh yeah I should stick my my guns more next time." Instead you start making it about me and deny what you did.
Up until the point where you made a personal attack against me, the conversation had not devolved. I merely disagreed and argued why I disagreed with your position that I derailed my wagon. I still do not think keeping my vote on white would have resulted in his lynch, but do think it is a good note generally that when convincing people is a struggle stubbornly sticking to your guns is sometimes the best answer. Hard to do, but worth considering. That said, nothing I said prior to your personal attack warranted your personal attack IMO. but bygones or whatever.
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@Bullish
and BTW I voted Water in the same minute that1 and yourself voted white, so at that time I was weighing 2 wagons that had the same number of votes. The moment I saw white had more votes I hopped on that wagon, which is exactly what I expect at least some other players to do, and more players would have done had white been at 4 votes for longer.
there was a lot happening in that last 2 hours, including a lot of new scum reads. I do not agree that me keeping my vote on White would have resulted in his lynch, based on who was online at that time and their articulated positions on white. But I do think it is a good note when I am so certain on a read to not give up. though at the same time I was pretty convinced Drafter was scum at that point too and arguably his play was more obviously so, so it was a hard call. I made a calculation in that last hour and thought I had a best chance with drafter because he was more likely to draw votes from Speed, MisterChris, and Supa, with Luna on the wagon. Most people were scum reading you, and I thought drafter was scum, so I did not think you two would be as effective at coralling votes as Luna.
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@drafterman
As I said before, I’m not aware that it’s SOP to claim hated and it was your role that allowed us to win early. We were able to play as recklessly as we did because we knew your role.
It is SOP.
and you played a role in the loss by not being able to get support for your point of view. Reads mean nothing if you can’t turn them into lynches and you failed to do so. It is a positive requirement on your part, as an unconfirmed player, to convince people to lynch your scum reads.
I literally have asked for constructive feedback on how to better present my reads. Instead I am being told my reads were baseless and to the extent they were right it was luck and not at all a reflection of a skill in scum hunting.
Instead you called people assholes.
I only called you an asshole in response to a specific, unnecessarily antagonistic specific post
And you claimed 100% accurate reads here:
I was responding to something lunatic said about my "reads" on whiteflame. I have acknowledged multiple times that my read on Pie was almost full town. lIKE pie was top 3 townie in my analysis.
As a scum in this game, I’m perfectly happy with your play and was completely unphased by you scum reading me because you were unable to do anything with it. Not sure why you think I’m annoyed at that.
Again, this is a very insulting thing to say and an absolutely unnecessary attempt to diminish me and make me feel small. It speaks more to your character that you feel the need to keep doing this, than it does to my actual quality and impact on the game.
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@Bullish
I've told u twice in DP1 and now here in the endgame to not derail your own wagon and here you are refusing to even admit that taking your vote off of white while white had the highest number of votes can be considered derailing. You get mad far more often than any other mafia player on the forum and in live. If someone's an asshole to you, they're an asshole. If everyone is an asshole to you, you're the asshole.
That is nonsense. People constantly tantrum our of this game and throw fits. Especially in live. I will not name names, but it is clearly a perception you are fabricating to justify your behavior and reaction to me. People constantly self kill themselves and do crazy shit in game when people just won't listen to them. It's a regular part of these games. I didn't do that. I just kept making the arguments, then I was met in endgame with multiple attempts to try and claim that though my reads were right I am still wrong, silly, nonsensical, or otherwise lacking in quality or value.That said, I never said anyone was behaving as assholes. I called a single person an asshole.
I said that people's refusal to just simply acknowledge the accuracy of my reads and give any credit for them is a reflection of a problematic instinct that is worth reflecting on. I noted this while simultaneously seeking feedback on how to better argue my reads, and yet am am now being met by personal attacks from you, when I have made no personal attack against you.
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@drafterman
I called only you an asshole for insulting me and posting an antagonistic meme at me for no reason. Stop claiming I called everyone assholes. It is a lie.
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@drafterman
So you want me to lie to soothe your feelings? You called me scum, sure. But you didn’t have me scared because I could see that your abrasive tone was counter productive to turning those reads into lynches, and it’s lynches that count. I was scared when Lunatic pressured me because he can gain a following. And did.You can’t expect a warm reception when you literally blame the loss on everyone but yourself and basically imply you were perfect and everyone else was shit for not listening to you.
It is so transparent, you attempts to diminish and demean my play for whatever personal egotistical gain you think it is bringing you right now. "you didn't have me scared" please get over yourself.
What reason did you give people to listen to you?
I outlined my analysis clearly. I was no more aggressive or abrasive in my reads and arguments than Lunatic and Bullish. They were arguable more stubborn and incorrect. Yet, for some reason my arguments were met with dismissiveness.I was not solely willing to lunch White, I was hunting and investigating everyone, was willing to lynch you and willing to lynch myself strategically. So I was not irrationally tunneling as town and you seem inclined to imply.
I have already asked for constructive feedback on how to more effectively argue in these games, yet you feel the need to belittle and demean my play and insult me along with numerous others in this thread and throughout the game.
I do not feel I am responsible for the loss, yet have asked for pointers on how to better argue my reads. I would challenge anyone to argue how I contributed to the loss and objectively had people listened to me, town would have won, so it is equally worthwhile for town to reflect on their own instincts and biases that made then uninterested in my accurate reads.
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@drafterman
would clarify someone saying that everyone except them deserves credit for the loss, falsely claiming 100% accurate reads, and then calling others assholes for disagreeing is arrogance and inclination to disrespect.But I suppose an expert would be best in noticing it in others.
I did not play a role in the loss, objectively. I had no night actions, I did not screw up my claim. I made no errors in how i reported investigative informtion. Though simultaneously I have asked for constructive feedback on what I can do to better convince people of my reads in the future. I never said my reads were 100% accurate. I said my reads on you and whiteflame were accurate. Which they were. I conceded I probably would have never scum read pie, except for what happened at the end of DP2, which was clearly done because you all knew you won. I have also complimented whiteflame in staying under the radar of 70% of the players in the game. I called you an asshole for posting insulting and antagonistic memes to me, for literally no reason.
For some reason you are annoyed and taking it personal that I was able to scum read you, which is weird, unless you think you're perfect as scum.
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Honestly, the behavior in this end game is the very reason I do not partake in Mafia much.
Due to ego or whatever else, instead of coming into this game like Supa and That1 and being like holly shit you called it, wish we listened to you, the instinct is to try and demean and undermine me and invalidate my play to the extent it was successful at all. Hell you could even reflect and be like, maybe I would have listened to you if you have presented it X way and give me that note. Instead you just pretend I was baselessly tunneling, without skill, analysis, logic, or understanding. It is insane.
Even scum, instead of being like damn Magic, you had me figured out, you had me nervous feels the need to diminish my play for whatever egotistical satisfaction it brings them in their play.
I spent 90% of this game correctly targeting one/two of the three scum players, and yet I have been antagonized by nearly every player and blamed for your own unwillingness to consider my accurate reads. It is crazy.
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@Bullish
When u switched votes whiteflame had more votes than drafter, that's a fact. you're tunneling against facts again, just like how you keep saying white never played scum when in fact he has."never had 7 votes" is defeatist thinking. When the day is near end and 1 player has 4 or 5 out of 7 votes, the momentum will carry null-reading players to vote for a lynch.
There was no null leaning players except Supa. Everyone else had adamantly argued against my accurate read. I love how you're simultaneously accusing my accurate well articulated scum read of Whiteflame as "tunneling against facts," while simultaneously saying that the 30 minutes I had my vote off of him in the entire DP is the reason the scum, everyone mocked me for calling scum, wasn't lynched. Your arrogance and inclination to disrespect is fascinating.
Again, That1 joined back into the DP at 30 min til end. She voted for White with 20 minutes remaining. I immediately brought my vote back to Whiteflame, which gave him the 4 votes for the first time in the entire DP. YOU THEN SWITCHED your vote to Water, potentially undermining any chance at momentum and creating suspicion of you and your motives. Not a single other vote was added to White after that.
Again, That1 joined back into the DP at 30 min til end. She voted for White with 20 minutes remaining. I immediately brought my vote back to Whiteflame, which gave him the 4 votes for the first time in the entire DP. YOU THEN SWITCHED your vote to Water, potentially undermining any chance at momentum and creating suspicion of you and your motives. Not a single other vote was added to White after that.
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@whiteflame
I don't think I did flip flop on my position, and I explained that my position was to get a claim, not a lynch. You didn't accept that, but it doesn't make what I said a flip flop. Readily backing down is, and I mean this seriously, awfully common in my play. It's not something I'm proud of. I've also been pushed into posting a lot. Again, not something I'm proud of. As for logical inconsistencies, that's basically the majority of posts I've seen nailing someone as obviously town or obviously scum, especially in DP1. They're all based on pulling at straws, and yes, in many cases inconsistent with what that same person said earlier. I was not alone in logical inconsistencies.
YOU WERE SCUM. I am sorry for not accepting your explanation for your logical inconsistencies as scum? I don't know what you want from me. Logical inconsistency is a common scum tell. I am sorry I noticed it and didn't buy your scum motivated explanation.
And yes, I did find it problematic that you were using the fact that I was away and had other things to do as yet another reason to scum read me. I'm sorry that I wasn't on to respond to you at 9 PM. It's fucking frustrating to have someone proclaiming that I'm somehow more guilty for having other things to do. You can say that it's just the cherry on top, but seriously, it was a bit much. And yes, I used the rest of my post to give my reads, weak and uninteresting though they are. Surprise, surprise, I'm still rather new to this, and don't produce the best reads early on.
It is weird that you were annoyed and took it personal that a townie was building a case on you as scum. Again this wasn't a primary part of my argument, but it was valid. You came on, made a barely responsive post to my arguments, then disappeared immediately with no other posts, no scum hunting, no response to Bullish's reads, no response to the lunatic Bullish flamewar. That was scummy. Because again, scum is focused on not being read as scum as a primary goal, not investigating or hunting for scum. It is possible for a town to be absent in critical moments, so it would not be enough for me to lynch you, but was worth noting on top of my prior analysis. Maybe you really were fully inactive from the game during that period, but I would be curious if you were inactive in your scum PM through that whole period of time, before I would be willing to let go of the fact that it appeared you were trying to stay under the radar and let me scum read fizzle out (a good strategy by the way, so there's not reason to be offended by it).
My blanket response to many of your bases for scum reading me was the same: this is how I play. You didn't want to accept that as an answer from me, Speed, Lunatic, or MisterChris, but that was the answer I gave. If I had been town in this game, I would have given you the same answer. You want to call it scummy? Fine, then I'd be scummy no matter what side I was on. If I had been town this game, you would have had the same amount of reason to lynch me because I would have behaved exactly the same through all of DP1 and most of DP2. You have 4 people telling you this. If you don't want to accept that at this stage, then I guess I should just expect for you to have a lynch called on me every game we play together. That's bound to be fun.
You just admitted you are new. So the fact that you think you played "as town" in your first game as scum is silly. You were scum, you had an informed perspective, a chat with two other scum buddies, fake claims, a motivation to avoid being lynched and avoid the lynch of your scum buddies as much as possible, a motive to avoid suspiscion, a motive to "appear town," and a motive to have mislynches.
You kept pushing a scum read on waters, but wouldn't vote him. I am sure there was a scum motive for that. No matter what, at the end of the day you were scum, and therefore your behavior was scum. It is very hard and takes a lot of experience to remove all of the scum thoughts and motives from your play and play convincingly town as scum. I am certain I won't have a scum read on you in every game we play together because you won't be scum in every game. I am not sure why you are bothered and feel the need to undermine my scum read. When I have had a player scum read me I come into endgame and say , woah good read, nice play you had me nervous, so glad I was able to avoid a lynch in spite of you.
And I will say it one more time. Your play was logically inconsistent and demonstrated anti-town motives, that was the basis of my read. Not passivity. No one, lunatic, speed, or misterchris addressed this. They all were focused on the passivity aspect, which is why my read was unchanged from their input. The only reason I noticed your scum motivation was because I did an ISO on your posts. Nonetheless, it went undetected by 70% of town so its a good outcome for you.
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@Bullish
At the time you voted drafter the votecount on him was 1 (lunatic), the vote on whiteflame was 3 (yourself, me, and drafter). https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5360/post-links/231329That1 had interest in voting whiteflame, we knew that, and she eventually did.Water can probably be pressured into voting whiteflame, since he was one of the alternative wagons at the time.
As of 2:30pm (2 hrs before the end of the DP, I was the only vote). We needed 7 people.I do not know why you feel the need to rewrite history here. Waters wasn’t even online. The players online and their focuses were as follows:
- oromagi who focused on waters, speed, and then supa
- speed who was essentially calling my read idiotic and ultimately joined the supa pressure
- supa who wanted to no lynch
- MisterChris who was hard on Supa and was only present for the last 1-2 hours
- drafterman who joined my wagon with about an hour left in the DP
- You who joined my wagon though you started focusing on supa too
That1joined back in at 20 min til end of DP, initially voted Drafterman then at 9 min til end of DP switched to Whiteflame, which I immediately joined. Immediately after I re-voted whiteflame, YOU CHANGED YOUR VOTE TO WATER. You were then called out for swapping your vote, randomly claimed I derailed my own wagon, then you switched back to whiteflame with like 4 min left in the DP.
There were never 7 players willing to lynch Whiteflame. There were 4 and that is what we ended the DP with, at best, 5 with Supa.
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@whiteflame
And I'll say this: that's my normal play, too. In DP1, I tend to shift around a lot. I've jumped from vote to vote and given reads without backing them up with votes before. It's not terribly unusual for me, and while that might seem scummy to you (and I could understand how it does), it's not any kind of stand-out performance from other games where I have behaved the same way as town. Didn't say I was a good player, not claiming to be doing this well, just saying that my normal poor behaviors aren't scum tells. They're just me mucking about.
Dude, you were scum. everything you did in this game was scummy because you were scum. I am not sure why you are trying to make an argument that you played as town when you played and won as scum. You were successful in avoiding a scum read from all but 3 town members, so GG. But that does not make my read invalid or inaccurate. Danielle has already noted an inconsistency in how you played this game vs. others as town. I am sure if we went back and took the time we could identify more, and I am sure they would validate my basis for accurately reading you as scum.
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@whiteflame
I'm right there with you here, especially after she stopped responding to my posts. If anything, I tend to reveal more when I'm asked to provide inferences on the game and put myself out there more. That tends to lead to at least some subset of players scum reading me, and even when that's inaccurate, at least it's based on some shift in behavior. Pushing a narrative that basically says "your normal play is scummy" just does more to prevent me from showing anything I'm doing differently.
You tagged me in two posts in DP1. one you mocked my read and said something like "if you want to read me as scum when everyone is saying it is my meta, then have at it." You then said you were busy and doing a debate. That obvs did not warrant a response since it did not address any of my arguments about your flip flopping, readily backing down, forced posts, and logical inconsistencies.
You next tagged me two hours before the close of DP1 where you said it was rich coming for me to note your absences as another potential scum tell. This was a cherry on top of my prior arguments and not a major part of how I formed my read on you. You used the rest of the post to say how busy you were and give your "reads".
You never responded to all of my bases for scum reading you, which makes total sense, you were scum. What you did is exactly how you should have played it as scum. Let the arguments play out among town, hope another town target arrises and that my arguments do not give steam, then avoid substantive arguments and resort to echoing mochery of my read already being articulated by townies. So no one is attacking your play, you were successful. But do not try to undermine my accurate read by claiming it was illogical or baseless.
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@Lunatic
On this same note though, the game didn't get to go long enough for whiteflame to behave in a way that would indicate if he would follow his previous agrresive style or not. His meta of wanting to be more stand offish and vtnl dp1 was consistent with his play from avatar for example. I even told magic that if whiteflame is scum, it will probably be easier to pick up on it later. I genuinely think tunneling him for the logic she did, made it ultimately harder to read whiteflame, since at that point he had to dedicate all his time to responding to analysis about his meta consistencies with someone who hasn't played in a single game with him lol. I think magic's tunnel vision on whiteflame actually made it HARDER to read whiteflame by proxy since we weren't analyzing natural responses and gameplay.
I am going to say this one more time for the people in the back. My analysis was no limited to his passive nature. It was logical inconsistency, willingness to flip flop under slight pushback, pushing reads/lynch targets without a vote etc. You all focused on the passive play and kept saying that is his town meta too and I kept saying that was not my only basis so it didn't change my read. For whatever reason, Town didn't want to hear an argument on White, which I found especially strange since you had like 5 games to base his meta on, none of which he was scum in, as he just acknowledged.
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@drafterman
I predict Magic will scumread me for the next 10 games out of principle.
It is unlikely. I rarely EVER have strong scum reads. Like a once a year thing maybe. I am usually more reticent normally because I don't want to be wrong and screw up. I felt emboldened to really hunt this game and make my thoughts known because I truly thought I'd be lynched DP1 or DP2
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@Lunatic
Well congrats on being right, even if I believe at least as far as whiteflame goes, you were right for the wrong reasons.I refuse to take responsibility for the loss though, and I really think it's fvcked up that you insinuate that this is all my fault when I was willing to lynch scum with you dp1 on a mutal read. Also I don't appreciate that you continuosly say that I don't respect your reads, when I did the opposite. I said there was a valid reason for you to feel the way you did about whiteflame, because I pointed that out with danielle in a forum game as well where he was town, and elminster also read him recently for the same logic. Sure whiteflame was scum, but it wasn't for the reasons you mentioned. I am not closed minded, and take insult that you keep saying that. I responded to everything you said with a lot of detail and explained where I was at with everything. I wasn't just disagreeing with you for the sake of being contrarian, I hate when people do that, so why would I do it myself?
Thank you for the acknowledgment. Maybe this will earn my reads more cred in the future.
I never said it was all your fault. There was a wealth of reasons, including my inability to convince people. As I have explained multiple times, my read was not limited to the behavior you all explained from prior games with White. For whatever reason, my reads and analysis tend to carry little weight in these games. I am sure that is in part a skill I should work on, but it is hard not to think it is some personal judgment you and others are making concerning the weight and value you believe my reads warrant. Having played with you a number of times, that is a bit frustrating to be screaming a fact (that turns out to be right, for all the reasons I came to the conclusion in the first place) with town being the main voices undermining me and writing me off as irrational (Speed and You in particular). When certain people are sure of their reads, those reads are accorded with more respect. If you have feedback for how I can improve my presentation to be afforded a similar level of respect, I would love to hear because it is useless to be right if you cannot get anyone to back you up.
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@Bullish
Magic u literally derailed your own wagon on white DP1
How so? I was the only vote on White up until 2hrs left in the DP. At like 1hr left Drafterman joined, then at some point you, but no one else online at the time was willing to join the lynch. Speed refused, Lunatic refused, MisterChris refused, as did Pie if Pie was active. I cannot remember. Luna then proposed a lynch of drafterman as a compromise, I joined that lynch at like less than 1 hr left in the DP. That1 then came in and proposed White and I ended the DP with my vote on white, where it had been for all but like 30-40 min.
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@Lunatic
What happened is I voted for him with you. That1 then joined. He never received more than those three votes, then in the last 20 min of DP1 That1 wanted to switch to White, and was pushing for it with some limited success so I switched back to the other scum.
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@Lunatic
I did vote drafterman DP1, I was willing to work with you on that. then no one joined and someone suggested White again so I changed back. But I was always willing to lynch drafterman or White and read them scum for most of the game. I probs never would have lynched Pie though had he not done what he did to Water, which I assume he only did because scum knew they had the win no matter what
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@ILikePie5
You are VERY hard to read. I'd have town piled you for so so long.
I would love to go back to White's prior games to see if he did that many scummy things. The list was extensive and was not limited to the low profile thing that you all were focused on. I also noted his logical inconsistencies, 180's avoidance, pushing lynches that he wouldn;t join etc. No one cared though.
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@drafterman
Dude I called you scum as well As whiteflame DP1. Clearly incapable of giving credit where credit is due. Must be a pretty insecure person.
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@That1User
You tagged a different magic I think.
Honestly Pie threw me. Pie was playing town as hell. I was so confused when he came on and challenged Waters. But I was like wtf would waters lie about that knowing Pie could immediately say it didn't happen, which is the only reason I help onto the town read of Waters.
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@Lunatic
Classic egotistical attempt and avoiding accountability. My reads were 100% accurate and based on scummy behavior that is seen as scummy in games constantly. You just don't respect my reads, and therefore were distracted by your own biases in that regard
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@whiteflame
You definitely did plenty of scumm things, all very clearly articulated by me. It is just unfortunate that it seems my thoughts, game play, and analysis are not respected or valued as much as yours and other players.
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Reposting here.
Town (with the exception of me) deserved this loss, hard. It seems clear that for whatever reason, town had more respect for the reads and thoughts of literally every player but me, including Drafterman and Whiteflame, who were almost playing laughably scummy. (INB4 nonsense ego argument that my reasoning was trash and I just so happened to be right)
WTF would scum Water's motive have been to claim Pie visited Supa, if he didn't actually see Pie visit Supa! It's immediately verifiable and would result in his lynch.
Nice extra dig Scum to have me vote for myself with your vote steal.
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@Lunatic
Don't blame water, you are just as much at fault for the loss.
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Town (with the exception of me) deserved this loss, hard. It seems clear that for whatever reason, town had more respect for the reads and thoughts of literally every player but me, including Drafterman and Whiteflame, who were almost playing laughably scummy. (INB4 nonsense ego argument that my reasoning was trash and I just so happened to be right)
WTF would scum Water's motive have been to claim Pie visited Supa, if he didn't actually see Pie visit Supa! It's immediately verifiable and would result in his lynch.
WTF would scum Water's motive have been to claim Pie visited Supa, if he didn't actually see Pie visit Supa! It's immediately verifiable and would result in his lynch.
Nice extra dig Scum to have me vote for myself with your vote steal.
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@Lunatic
Because I have an anti-town utility role. If the obvs scum isnt getting lynched we should not risk a mislynch with so many unknowns, knowing I need to die anyway.
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@drafterman
Dude, you spent half the day telling everyone it was Lunatic.
Lunatic voluntarily confirmed he visited me, since i received results from a player, it was natural to assume he was the caroler, him having outted himself as same. Now knowing he is not caroler, it makes no sense to give scum even more info.
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@drafterman
This is suspicious as fuck. You aren't pretty much confirmed town. You claimed a role that can't be verified without lynching you. A role that can be scum. And all of a sudden you have results we're just supposed to trust from you and pretty please don't ask around to validate them?Lunatic speculated SK as a possible second third. You know what I'm thinking? Lyncher.
Feel free to lynch me then if you think I am scum. Please articulate your full analysis leading to that brilliant conclusion though first. You're clearly scum and desperate. I would be fine with my lynch or White's this DP. I am tired of trying to convince everyone. It's annoying. Nonetheless the caroler should not out themselves when scum potentially has lots of info already. I am not willing to put a target on a player with a town-positive role to save me, a hated. I could see why you as scum would want caroler to out themselves though.
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@oromagi
@MisterChris
oh well regardless, it wasn't established because up to that point everyone thought Supa recruited scum.
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@Lunatic
@oromagi
I am pretty much confirmed town. I claimed hated and am clearly not TP since there already is one (Supa). Caroler should absolutely NOT out themselves. There is zero reason to doubt my results.
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@WaterPhoenix
also, how did mister chris know you visited magic then?
That is the point, MisterChris's role has to be legit because he knew Luna visited me. Affiliation is not determinative of role claim. MisterChris could still be scum, but I am leaning towards you both being town, further info. from pie pending.
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@Lunatic
I was really hoping not to say this, but I am not the caroler, and didn't give you those results. Why would a caroler's own name be on their results? That would guarantee that scum was one of the other two, which makes the role basically a justice (one of the most OP investigative roles). If water flipped town, I would still actually probably want to lynch bullish fisrt, but yeah there would be a lot to indicate misterchris is scum in that scenario.
Okay then the Caroler should not out themselves and this is looking more and more like role madness or an OP scum team. Because so far everyone who has claimed has roles and fairly significant ones. This gives credence to MisterChris and Water both being town. But again, we need to hear from Pie
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@Lunatic
Unless it is role madness or scum is overpowered either in numbers or roles. Either way, it is not automatic scum read on one or the other. Instead we should wait for Pie.
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@MisterChris
Speed did not visit Pie, what are you talking about. Speed and Pie apparently visited Supa, which explains Supa's death. Prior to Water's results, everyone assumed Supa recruited scum and died as a result. Now it seems, assuming water is not lying, which I will wait on Pie to determine, that Supa actually died because he was Vigged by speed.
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@Lunatic
Alternatively, I'd be willing to put the water lynch on hold and lynch bullish based on the caroler results. I know I am town, and I suspect whiteflame is town, so this kind of confirms bullish is scum to me. I doubt others would bite for this option, just saying I am equally willing to lynch bullish if anyone's interested in that option.Otherwise, it probably has to be water this phase.Here's the thing with water, there is a world where water actually fvcked up and claimed the wrong role. He is kind of lazy and made a mistake as town doctor protecting a bulletproof because he didn't read the phase. Chances are less likely he didn't read his role PM correctly than reading a whole day phase though. And if he is town, he has no one to blame but himself for his action.In the event he is town though we get a lot of good information from this, and it will guarantee us a scum in misterchris.
Are you kidding me? if Water flips town, then you go for MisterChris? Not White? You literally gave me the carol, the carol is confirmed, the carol lists a players that behaviorly was very scummy last DP (White), but you still do not trust my read or seemingly my results. We are screwed as town
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