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@Yassine
This thread has progressed quite a bit into the fourth page so I guess I'll quote some of your statements. The first part of your post will not be quoted. You wishing to post in whatever way you deem appropriate is fair game, do as you want to in the thread. I won't stop you. As I said in the earlier thread in which I replied to your posts, I won't distract online traffic from looking at your posts by posting redundant stuff or whatever.
- It's a debate website. I'm here to beat people
Lol. Haha. Well, go ahead.
...In-group "favoritism" applies to any & every ideology, by definition. Beliefs are exclusive...
You're making grandiose claims about human nature again. Islam's societal practices have no common ground with western societal practices. You're looking at the west with your islamic-tinted glasses. The fact that you're assuming that human nature has this certain innate bias clearly shows a lot about Islamic society in general. It clearly disallows a different viewpoint of human nature. This is where I disagree and decided to choose a different lifestyle. For the next part of your large posts, you've said a lot about submission. I am well aware that personal whims do not override religious obligation. Well, i know that islam has been consistent on this end. As I said earlier, the fundamental issue is that i don't agree with its lifestyle. Thus, I chose the west.
- Propaganda. Reality is otherwise. There is very little freedom to do anything in the West, except in self-gratification (aka degeneracy), then it's virtually limitless...
I guess it's fair that taxation is theft. Again, you're inferring corruption for granted. What is it with muslims and their grandiose claims? You've claimed that western philosophy came from Islam. Yet, here, you're making mistakes as though you read none of the Vienna circles' analytic philosophers. These inferences mean nothing if only to show a generalized rejection of those you deem different than you. I'm not intending to move to the west to be a pioneer of something, I just want out of a Muslim country and read literature freely until I grow old. Malays have a simple philosophy of life. Be simple, live simple lives. Jesus, I'm not an over-zealous american hell-bent on achieving her dreams.
- You have it backwards. The West controls education in Muslim countries, though various nasty conventions. They impose their ways on the world. They have much worse restriction of literature too. They just have better PR....
So, me encountering Rawls' essays in a decrepit indonesian bookstore is an elaborate scheme by western countries? That's interesting. Maybe, when I have free time, I'll look up that charlatan Chomsky.
I think the last part of your posts about inheritance laws seem like a rejection of my anecdotes. I think you've only offered your own rebuttal in the form of counter-anecdotes. ill read it a second time next time in case I miss anything. Once I do, expect a reply to that.
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@Yassine
Jesus, I've been at this for an hour. Here's how I will respond. I will leave the thread as it is and I prefer to have as much traffic online looking at your posts. In other words, I'd rather not distract the thread by opening a chain of mass quotes. So It might look as if Im responding sparingly when in fact I have read and intend to reply as much as I can.
I don't agree that much of western philosophy is inspired from Islam. The only agreement you're getting from me is the fact that Aquinas referenced arab scholars. However, that's where your culture's influence end. Mere citations is the only thing the golden age of Islam was capable of producing. Granted, you did pioneer medicine for a time before the inquisition burned the books and drove the muslims away from Spain. That said, medicine now is not islamic thanks to the inquisition. Plus, I can offer you glimpses of what a Butler-ean reflection looks like, and I can tell you what Hume thinks of necessary connection. Both are deeply unislamic. For example, necessary connection has a small chapter disputing miracles. If Hume was a muslim and if he mass-produced and circulated his book, he would've been executed for corrupting the public sphere. Additionally, Voltaire and the German idealists share none of your views. Absolutely none of their philosophy is inspired from your religion. What's next? That Max Weber's Christian Faith in Capitalism is Islamic? That Calvinism arose from the doctrine that Muhammad prophesized that he and his companions(and their followers) are the only worthy sect in Islam? No. Well, on an unrelated note, I did remember that Malaysia successfully commercialized Islam, so go ahead and make your own illustrations of what you think of that. I'll read them and I won't distract the thread.
I don't disagree with anything you've said about dhimmis. The only thing I want to note is that If you think that's where rights are sufficient for dhimmis, you're wrong. Though, muslims are right in the fact that there are indeed dangerous enemies operating within every muslim nation. You could bomb them (enemies of Islam) for all I care; they're just as extreme as Islam.
I don't live in the west. I've only lived vividly through their philosophers. Almost everything you said about western tolerance either makes absolutely no sense, because they don't connect to the philosophers or that they seem more of a tirade against the west than a genuine critique. Even if western philosophers did lie about freedom, and that they were "Medieval-CIA" style dajjal (anti-islam) operatives, then I must've been duped into the most biggest conspiracy theory I've ever seen. Uh, no. I don't find eschatological viewpoints compelling.
On the question of apostasy, what makes you think that clerics have your best interest at heart? Further, what makes you think the apostates in question are apostazing based on an infatuation of the west? Would you classify me as a malay fetishizing on an amoi? This is all very convenient of you to inject relativism without taking into account the amount of pain muslims have to go through once they've apostatized. You may judge me; I don't bite.
Im not talking about the persisting influence of the four imams, I'm talking about the Asharis and the Muatazis. Asharis literally grounded their belief in the same way as muatazis. Are you a salafi? Is that why you disagree with this? Then I'm not the person to debate this. Find another muslim; Indonesia houses another major sect called the Muhammadiyah, I'm sure you can find one online (they're not well versed in English but they speak fluent arabic). Back to the topic at hand, I think succeeding imams won because "islam will persist until Qiyamah", which is a pretty amusing statement after their victory over the Muatazis government. Again, I'm trying to say that this is an Islamic principle. Grandiose claims start and end at Islam. Stop mixing western philosophy with Islam. It bears no relevance when you're making grandiose claims about ideas. Western ideas are "free" while Muslim ideas are "grandiose"
Yes, I have read The Incoherence of the Philosophers. Just so you know, my parents implemented harsh hunger deprivation and threats of permanent disownment on me when they heard ive apostatized. They also told me to read Ghazali, which I did. Ptolemy writes scant little about philosophy and he merely extended Aristotle's De Caelo. Ptolemy was a careless astronomer and his textbook was quickly disposed in favor of Sufi's observations. Causality is not apparent and time is relative, well of course it isn't for you. Why do you think this ties to western philosophy, it's as Eastern as Eastern can be. Good luck with that level of generalization, you sound like my deranged anti-islam pastor when I first apostatized (not an insult to you in particular, just that the point youve raised is eerily similar to what he said to me).
Yes, moderate muslims don't exactly exist. Their belief structure is incoherent. I agree. They're not exactly true muslims. Hence, I told Lemmings that muslims generally label ihan omar a deviant. She's like mahathir who's notorious for having anti-semitic beliefs alongside that unsubstantiated "moderate islam". Muslims sure love to make labels. Disagreements in divisions in Islam are always labelled and classified with derogatory claims of blesphemy. I'm not interested in such a boring, uninspiring, narrow-minded lifestyle.
Chomsky sounds a lot like peterson. So a deranged conspiracy theorist met his equal in an equally deranged self-help artist. I'll pass.
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@Lemming
It doesn't end there. If you evaluate the muslim countries under some form of sharia, the Inheritance laws are incredibly punishing for non-muslim minorites and if you choose to marry a muslim whilst secretly retaining your atheist/catholic/Buddhist belief, you'll inevitably told to be buried alongside your "muslim brothers". No amount of petition/work will help you settle your grave alongside your deceased non-muslim parents. In addition, your properties will be given to muslim in-laws, rather than your own flesh and blood. Good luck with that level of freedom. I could survive in a fundamentalist society, so long as they don't pervert their way into banning western literature. That would be the final straw imho.
That aside, thanks for the compliment
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@coal
You've made exceptional posts in the thread. Thanks, I think I will subscribe. Your posts are all very useful but I want to say a few words about your statement below:
Here's the problem: There are a bunch of academics who call themselves "historians" in the United States and the UK (read: leftist frauds) who have essentially acquiesced to the Ayatollah-promulgated Islamist propaganda-version of Iran's history from the 1950s to the 1970s. Co-mingled with that nonsense are vapid, specious claims about "American imperialism," a claim that does not even rise to the level of idiocy in view of the Wilson Administration's role in thwarting British imperialism before and after WWII.
IMHO, i don't know anything about leftists but the islamist propaganda you speak of is not restricted to Iran. In a way, if what you're saying is true, then the left (or whatever) is pandering to fundamentalist islam all across the globe. This includes Indonesia, malaysia, brunei, saudi arabia, turkey, afghanistan, iran and iraq. What you essentially have in the US are fundamentalists looking to turn the country into a religious dustbin.
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@Yassine
There's a lot to unpack in your posts. For the record, I think you seem to be partaking in a sort of generalized rejection of the west. Although I'm interested in what an arab (than indonesian) would say about that, I still think your gigantic post isn't any different than other islamic clerics that I've seen.
You're beating a dead horse. You're free to suggest that I've strayed too far away from my Buginese roots. I could easily claim that I am a singaporean amoi and you'll even suggest the exact opposite. how very convenient of islam. Not withstanding the amount of muslim-to-muslim discrimination between indonesians and arabs, I can see that this tale of islam is predictably old. Case in point: my parents had done the exact same thing few years ago. I'll be honest now since you've been polite to me (as Safalcon did) in the past: I have no intention to pursue this along the lines of a generalized rejection. I have no intention of pursuing this along the lines of assimilation or reversion of either side; the waves have settled and I have moved on.
For a short statement of my issue with your post, I don't think you've actually looked at what "degeneracy" actually means. You're inferring degeneracy for granted, which is understandable given how islam is currently structured. And by suggesting that, you've essentially outlined the exact issue I have with islam: its clear, fanatical in-group favoritism at the cost of those who chose a different life. Islam is willing to converse with me in so far as I play-pretend and apologize for harmlessly choosing a different life. To do otherwise is to do exactly what you've done: accuse normal people like me of treason, blesphemy and defilement of islam. I'm definitely aware of the "public sphere" that clerics warn me and my family to safeguard wholeheartedly, especially against muslim enemies. That said, generally speaking, I don't see how you can beat the "freedom to choose/speak/read" lifestyle that the west offers. I'm betting that the middle east (like inonesia) has a tight control over its distribution of literature; the muslim countries are a joke. Practically, the countries are a mess and you should sort them out yourselves before critiquing the west. My opinion.
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@sadolite
OK. Are you still a loser if you learn things late in life? Do you think there is an age in which learning is too late?
If a 60 year old publishes his first book, do you think he's a loser?
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Edit: On an unrelated note, I Just saw the advertaient video or whatever. Yeah, I'm not interested in that interview, no matter how good the comments make it. Plus, the culture is pretty bizarre to me. No thanks, I'd rather read Butler's Five Sermons whose audience is universal. My opinion.
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@rbelivb
Interesting. I'm not sure I'm reading that right but I do agree that self-help books are generally useless. I think they take inferences for granted. I did find ancient philosophy helpful. Stoicism espoused by Epictetus is the best self-help so far (imho).
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@Safalcon7
There are some basic and fundamental rulings in Islam that either make or oust a person in or out of Islamic fold. By that virtue, she's close to losing that identity in the first place- again, not because she chose her path of freedom from her husband's authority but based on the conversation you had with her, her faith in God edges towards disbelief, Cause well, Islam is all about faith- more so than practice. So, to objectively decide upon a woman's mindset in a strict Islamic society, you'd do better exemplifying a strict Islamic female rather than a liberal wanting to compromise.
Yes, it took me all of my childhood to realize this. Islam leaves scant little to those dipping their toes outside of its fold. Submission requires strict observance of its tenets. While mere ignorance is excused, wilful disobedience is punished. I don't agree with this lifestyle.
For illustration purposes, the fractured Islamic parties in Indonesia often occupy themselves with rules of what women should wear. I'm pretty sure Iraq's leadership is also occupied with the same thing. Really, across muslim countries, this sounds like a trivial pursuit. In my opinion, I would go insane listening to similar versions of the same fundamentalist rule. Then again, Im told to do it for the sake of the afterlife! But no, I vehemently disagree.
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I think you're assuming pessimists don't contribute positively and that they merely refrain from punching someone. That's quite an assumption. A person with trauma could potentially use her negative experience to help those in need. I don't find your OP compelling.
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@BrotherDThomas
Well-said sir. I think you've made an exceptional comeback. Lol
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@oromagi
When I was in college, I took a job for some minor Saudi princeling ...I spent many hours at the Prince's nice house and his wife was always there in full niqab but she never spoke...I did, however, meet his wife once more at a grocery store on the other side of town months later....This experience has informed my assumptions about women in strict Islamic societies more than any other.
Really good read. I think she probably cherishes that memory more than her whole experience at Saudi Arabia. I never went through what she went through so this is just my speculation since I lived most of my life in an equally conservative muslim society.
Saudi Arabia's main jurisprudence (Hanbali) is not far off from other muslim countries. I'd say muslims split along cultural lines so I can reasonably expect other strict Islamic countries to have similar cases of abuse towards women. I do think they differ in manners of expression. For example, indonesians are more likely to throw in hunger deprivation than social deprivation.
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@BrotherDThomas
Maaf, ulasan tidak jelas. Saya akan lari.
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@n8nrgmi
I have read both of your posts twice
...i might be inductive reasoning but it's still good evidence. the fact that atheists just write it off and pretend there's no evidence for God or the afterlife, is because they lack good judgment and critical thinking skills. it's plausible to be agnostic on the issues, but to reject it all outright as atheists do, is irrational given the evidence.
I don't understand how you can arrive at the conclusion that rejecting induction is irrational. Induction only yields reliable results. I think that's where it ends: reliable results. It neither tells you of any cause-and-effect, especially in matters of faith.
Am I irrational if I reject Islam despite knowing the fact that it reliably produces billions of similar-minded muslims?
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@Barney
This was in the worst parts of Iraq. I think most of the rebels we fought against were not as bad as that (not to say good, just still definable as human).
I find that fascinating.
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@BrotherDThomas
Well...
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@Lemming
...I've been given to understanding that at various times and locations, Islam has been a religion tolerant of the existence and practice of religions different than it's own?"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error...
Well, that's a lot to unpack. First of all, the application of that verse requires the obligated help of the Hadith (sayings of the prophet). If you ignore the latter, you're branded as a Quranist which means you're not really a muslim. Since you've said a lot about history in your post, I'll end the implications of being a Quranist here and move on to more relevant things.
In medieval times, it is perhaps the most tolerant. Non-muslims (though branded derogatorily) are only obligated to pay Jizya (non-muslim tax) and they enjoy equal protection under muslim empires. If you look up medieval publications, Jewish authors tend to co-write with Muslim authors.
Unfortunately, that's where tolerance ends. For new converts, especially women, you are forbidden to leave Islam. You will always be branded a muslim and any attempts to convert out will inevitably lands you a one way-ticket to senior clerics/scholars. Even if you disagreed with their attempts to revert you back to islam, you're just inviting yourself to be slapped with a death sentence. I want to note that such sentences are rarely carried out because apostates prefer to live a secretive life. Islam is not "tolerant"; its believers will believe in this apostate ruling until the day of judgment and will still think it's right to apply death sentences to ordinary citizens. They'll call you evil and relish in the fact that they've carried out a command from god.
A good general rule for observing how Islam works is to think like the muslims themselves. For muslims, the scholars (ulama) represent islam. For example, when Islamic empires reached peak power, their philosophical guidance is largely directed by scholars: the Asharis and muatazis. Both were initially influenced by Greek philosophers. As such, reason-based philosophy was regularly applied in religious rulings. However, their dominance lasted less than a century. The Muatazis were the first to disappear as succeeding imams found that greek philosophy perverted Islam. For example, imam Ghazali wrote the "The incoherence of the philosophers" as a starting critique of greek-inspired ulamas. Plenty of other new ulamas follow suit. What you have now is the exact religious ideology prescribed by the prophet himself.
Since you live in the US, Id say that ilhan Omar is a moderate. Muslims will brand her as a deviant (which isnt bad for the west). It is a strong word -- used sparingly to denote muslims who are "lost in the forest". You should only start worrying if muslims start flocking to her in large numbers.
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@Sum1hugme
It's not stupid, dmt could very well be the explanation for NDEs
Huh, not to veer off-topic but that article you cited for the thread reminds me of a news story where a woman's amygdala was overloaded with electrodes. She said she had extreme feelings of depression so she asked neuroscience psychologists to kill her because she did not care what would happen to her.
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The apparent regularity in which theists hallucinate is a clear illustration of the problem of induction. I don't participate in an over-simplified rejection of what you characterize as atheists' critique of hallucination but I do think theists have no cause-and-effect to this. Otherwise, the large majority of atheists' would've converted. It's a simple thing really. Theists rely on induction which is understandably insufficient for atheists.
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@Barney
Yeah. From what I've seen most of it is normal people; the same basic people you would have in any civilized country... However, I've also been to places where the men padlock their houses when they go off on suicide missions, and tell their families if they leave the house instead of staying and starving to death, that they'll come back and murder them.
Very interesting. I suppose this is one of those extreme cases but mild cases of muslim-to-muslim violence involve food deprivation and sleep deprivation. If you don't mind me asking, how often do you come across this kind of case?
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@Lemming
I'd imagine for near all religions, same as governments. They go through different iterations, versions I mean, of their practice....
I'm sure you know this but what you said doesn't apply to Islam. During the Umayyads, Greek influence was prevalent. According to muslim historians, they were inevitably removed by argumentation (lol) because succeeding imams found greek-inspired ulamas incredibly erroneous. I think Islam now is the version conceived during the time of the Prophet Muhammad.
I chose to apostatize specifically for this reason: that I prefer the philosophers of the west rather than the east. My opinion.
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@Aryanman
I'm curious. How many apostates have you met in Iran? I'm assuming you live there. I want you to include apostates who were forced to apologize for apostatizing and apostates who remain incredibly secretive in their life.
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Seems like a lot of work. Do mods get paid? That said, I think the notification system was helpful. Otherwise, I would've missed posts like this.
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@BrotherDThomas
I think that would require me to sit and reread what I've extensively learned about Islam (and muslims) in the past, rather than just doing one on-the-spot. I'll have to pass. I'm not interested in searching for muslim clerics/scholars online at the moment. Plus, I'm no longer a muslim. I've at least did half the work for them though. No doubt they'll address your erroneous references at some point. So it's reasonable to expect them focus on those references you've made. That said, any muslim who claims to say that the opinion polls are unrepresentative of the core tenets of Islam is wrong. I know because I was one.
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@Bones
I've read the thread. So far, the references everyone made about the Quran and the Hadith are all wrong. I'll say this though: Bones is right about the study. I think the polls are underestimating muslims' predisposition to extremism. 40% advocating death for apostasy seems too optimistic. That number should be higher.
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I enjoyed Ragnar's posts in the philosophy/religion section a while back. I don't know much about how moderators generally work; Im not familiar with their bans/reprimands. The site is pretty nice and calm (i.e. spamless etc) so I guess I should say thank you for your services. Also, congrats to the new mods.
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Sons of prime ministers often end up as prime ministers. There's also hiring applicants along religious/racial lines. There's not much change you can do especially if you're poor. My rich friends get away with most things (i.e. getting temporarily kicked out of campus for failing only to return a year later) precisely because they're rich. If Nepotism is localized along values of compassion and empathy, I'm probably fine with it. I think it's rare to have compassionate nepotism. However, I have no control over it so I couldn't care less how prevalent Nepotism is in my world. I'll just say to myself "not my business" and move on. My opinion.
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I maintain that dreams are the best way to live your life. Hence, dreams are perfect.
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@Wylted
According to muslims, it's not only preserved but it's also the best book known to man. I don't know much about the former though, so perhaps you'd have to wait.
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@Safalcon7
I believe it's been quite a while since we've talked. I don't think it's been days, but months. Just want to point that out.
That said, your religion's record dealing with cases concerning apostasy doesn't bother you in the slightest? And of the blesphemy laws surrounding Pakistan? And of the selective bias towards palestinians to the detriment of rohingya, uyger?
Sure, I'll admit that it's not the religion doing the talking but Saudi Arabia's perversion of it. As far as I know, Bangladesh (in most parts??) and Indonesia (only in some small parts) remain key figures in moderate islam. But im still correct in suggesting that the punishment for apostasy is still death. Further, complete submission suggests exactly what it suggests: total surrender to a diety. I think it's silly to have everyone conform to such a hideous rule in which you're supposed to worship God as he was meant to be worship (through total submission). Additionally, I think it's also silly to classify non-islamic literature (i.e. Hellenistic philosophy, Malebranche's Occasionalism, Humean Necessary Connection) with derogatory classifications. I read them for quite a while and found them superior than reading the muslim scholars' general rulings. Muslims can't seem to grasp the simple fact that a sizeable minority might choose to be different and that some of them might prefer reading non-islamic literature for a living. Instead, muslims classify them as misled believers which is highly offensive. I am not ignorant; I choose not to subscribe to your religion. I'm fully aware of my decision and it was a fully informed decision.
For the record, I'm not giving the dhimmis a pass either. They've been antagonizing Muslims for a christian prosecution complex they've been fetishizing and they take every chance to mention it in mass.
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@Lemming
I don't know about all of that but you should see what the Sultans of Malacca were doing before the coming of Portuguese/Dutch/British. They were using cock fighting as an excuse for civil war. Revenge, usurpation, grave defilements are all common themes of history.
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I don't understand half of what you said. I guess I'll chalk that as a major difference in culture. There's little to no debates where I live and I think that is primarily due to my community's strong need to keep things simple. Disagreements do happen but they usually result in threats of disownment. I do think Islam plays a role in shackling my relatives to a complete life of submission, which is perhaps what drives them not to read debates. Personally, I'm content insofar I'm able to read debates. Debates and literature are useful distractions to free me from the predatory eyes of Islam and it's practitioners.
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I think you're talking about the center of civilization. In that case, you forgot to add the Ottoman Empire. It reached peak power about the same time Portugal went into stagnation. There were also the Umayyads (responsible for preserving Greek literature) and the Abbasids (responsible for pioneering surgery and medicine). I'm not a big fan of any of them though.
Personally, I'd rather have a western center of civilization than an eastern center of civilization. I don't really care if it's Biden's America or Johnson's Britain, I just want the center of civilization to be western.
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A somewhat interesting thread. I think I socialize and divide along religious lines. I wouldn't mind fully trusting someone with a completely different faith though future experience may change my view (just like some of the comments I've read on this thread).
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@drlebronski
Well, I guess what Lemmings say is true but bones have pointed out that you were with him in a troll debate. I can't help but seriously doubt your intention that you're weren't trolling.
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@fauxlaw
Ah! Okay thanks.
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@FLRW
Lol.
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Hmm...i've never heard of these books before. They look interesting. I think I should add them to my to-read list.
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@TheUnderdog
...a country for disagreeing with your ideology. This goes against the principles of freedom of speech... Freely moving encompasses the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness...If 70% of middle easterners moved to Europe, Europe would still be roughly 50% Christian...Only roughly 6% of the immigrants would be from China for instance.
I read everything and I enjoyed it. I won't disagree with freedom of speech. However, I do think the stats that you have are far too optimistic for my taste. Illustrations may not be representative but they do pose a problem to the West. You're assuming that religious nutjobs from Saudi Arabia will stay in Saudi Arabia. Yet, I see plenty of them proliferate the UK; In fact, they're making Saudi-style schools there now. Moreover, you have unique cases like Shamima Begum who was briefly allowed to return to the UK at one point. An ISIS sympathiser like Shamima Begum deserves no sympathy. My opinion stands, bend the rules and stop them (however small) before they enter your borders.
For example, Singapore, Taiwan, and Hong Kong are all majority ethnic Chinese, yet none of these reigns wants to join China.
That's a cultural thing. Amoi's support for China is higher than non-chinese asians, but it's tempered with their own nationalism and the need to self-hate. This is my observation. I don't know the stats about this.
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@Yassine
Personally, he (Copernicus) pales in comparison to Galileo. He never mounted a challenge to the Catholic church and his insistence on the status quo makes him a coward, imho.
...agree on conditions of the debate...couple of weeks...
Ok.
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@TheUnderdog
No taxation without representation is the motto the US was founded on.
I suppose I should read more. Fair enough.
And I want immigrants to learn English as a means of assilimination.
Well, since you've said that, I'll say that you can look at me as though I'm a case study. For example, I can get away with most of the stuff in Singapore, but that's only because I speak English. However, most of the fundamentalist clerics here are also well-versed in English. These clerics are a threat to western values. Tbh I don't think assimilating language is enough. What happens if a bunch of Erdogan fanatics migrate in large numbers to the US? Sure, they can speak English but they share none of your values. I would avoid that risk. imho, you should do the same as Eastern Europe: close your borders.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
That's an interesting set of assumptions. What sort of response are you expecting? Belajat macan Golok
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@Yassine
...What is your particular interest in Copernicus? You're not Polish
That's an interesting assumption. Well, the short answer is that I had read him a while back when I was in high school. Copernicus is my childhood memory. I would like to re-visit what it was like to read him.
I'm not a good debater but I am interested in the sources you're going to use. I'll send you the challenge sometime next week.
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@TheUnderdog
But what about no taxation without representation? Should the US get rid of that slogan? Because that is partly how we got our independence from the UK.
I have no idea what that means. I don't live in the US. Im assuming you're referring to migrants having some sort of "representation" if they pay their sales tax at a store. That's far too trivial for it to be counted. I doubt non-citizens file their taxes the same way citizens do.
Also, what in your book is the definition of the following:...renounce their old identity and embrace their new culture
They(migrants) need to stop acting like their original self and start acting (no matter how difficult) like the citizens of the country they're currently migrating to. A Turkish migrant should eliminate his Turkish identity entirely if he wants to live in Germany.
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@Yassine
His ideas are found with others before him. I would be debating this if we go too much further in the discussion. Care to debate?
Do you mean a normal debate or a debate through the forums? Well, if we're doing a normal debate, I guess I could employ some of 3RU7AL's methods for starting one. Though, with the range of new commitments you seem to have on this site, I won't take your attention too much. I'll just make a typical competitive debate in which I'll write 10k words comprising of what I think about Copernicus. My sources will be drawn from historians and old studies.
If you're opting for the forum, it is fine as it is though I probably won't read the whole thread. I'll still read all your replies though.
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@Yassine
Nicholas Copernicus is a plagerist
I've heard of this. Sufi was the closest to creating a helioentric model; he was regularly referenced by Copernicus. However, to date, Copernicus is the first scientist to complete the heliocentric model. How did you find him "plagerist"?
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@zedvictor4
This is fascinating....Apart from being a grammatically inept statement, this is also a contradiction in terms...
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Well, I think assimilation is a good measure of "the right to vote". I'm not talking about citizens, I'm talking about those filthy foreigners in your respective countries. If foreigners are unwilling to renounce their old identity and embrace their new culture, they should not be allowed to vote.
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@Lemming
For me, it's America, I was born their, we have a powerful military, great influence...
I'm curious. Do you think the US is a stagnant empire? It certainly is powerful but I don't see an upward trend in its power.
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