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@Discipulus_Didicit
I understand that you are very sure about the existence of reality, but please, lets dwell on this for a bit.
Any evidence that could be presented to undermine the existence of reality would be self defeating.
"It is reality that there is no reality!"
Now in nearly every case, I would agree with you that it is good to be open to the possibility that one's views may be in error. However, this is one of those things that I would say it is not reasonable to have doubts about. Reality by necessity must exist. There is no sophistry that can undermine this.
Can you agree on this, or do you have any reasonable objections?
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@Goldtop
There is no way to peace, peace is the way.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I don't pick and choose when the old testament is relevant.
I don't think you really understand my faith, and that can hardly be your fault even as your exposure to Christianity has been through heterodox not orthodox Christianity.
And really, I dispute your claim that Jesus had two commandments.
But make no mistake, whether you acknowledge it or not The God of Truth is the God of us all. If you reject The God of your Salvation, well...
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@Goldtop
So what exactly are your terms for peace?
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@Polytheist-Witch
The ten commandments come from those 2 commandments that Jesus said were the greatest.The Ten Commandments are nothing to Christians. Jesus only had two. Your go doesn't own my soul. Thanks though. He only has say over Jews and Christians. Maybe Muslims
The God we believe in is The God of everyone, not just those who believe. Your soul was given to you by God, and as free will is a gift from God, you certainly can choose whether or not you wish to acknowledge our creator as God or not.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I understand that you believe reality exists. However, you say you could be wrong about this.
I am saying there can be no reasonable room for doubt about this. Reality certainly exists. Can we agree on that?
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@Goldtop
Thank you for demonstrating once again that my accusers are in fact the ones guilty of what it is they accuse me of.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I have been very consistent that God is Reality as it Truly is in Actuality, and I have been very consistent about this because I know what I am talking about. You are talking about a god. I am talking about God. There is a difference.
I am not demanding that you accept what I say. I am saying that if you don't believe God exists, this is what needs to be discussed.
So how can you even entertain the idea that reality might not exist? The fact that you are having an experience at all demonstrates that there is some form of reality. I can't say it makes sense to question the existence of reality.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I find it hard to believe that someone can honestly say That Which is Truly Real doesn't exist and understand what they are saying.
if you refuse to do anything more than give a basic definition unless I proclaim that I will agree with whatever you say before you say it.
I am doing no such thing, and I certainly am not going to respect any argument to the contrary. Until we are on the same page about what is meant by God, I am not going to waste my time talking about these other things.
And why should I when you are currently adopting a position that to my worldview is translated into "Nothing is real, the truth is a lie!". You must agree that I would be foolish to even try to reason with someone who adopts such an unreasonable position.
And of course, it is my hope that you aren't truly so depraved, but are simply uninformed about the subject matter. That is what I am here for, to educate. I would appreciate it if you gave me the benefit of the doubt about this.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If you don't believe The Ultimate Reality exists, you don't actually understand the concept.
So you say you accept the definition, but I don't believe you actually understand it properly.
That which is truly real. This is the proper way of understanding the concept. And surely, this is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality.
So if you are in doubt about this, we aren't going to get anywhere talking about these other things. I would rather address one superstition at a time.
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@disgusted
Nothing carries weight to a nihilist except personal whim.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I do not think any 'ultimate reality' exists. I don't think there is any single entity or force with power over all of reality. I think reality is affected by numerous different forces, causes and effects, etc.
Without God, there are no forces, causes, and effects. These forces do not exist independently of God.
None of these things you mention would be there unless they existed, and if they exist God precedes them. All existence is preceded by God, The Eternally Existing One.
You do not think that The Ultimate Reality exists, but by saying so you are saying that nothing is ultimately real. That is nihilism.
And as for the rest of your post, there is nothing to address until we settle tgis matter, as I have repeatedly said. And the matter won't be settled until you are more sure of God's existence than even the existence of yourself. If you can't be that certain, YOU DON'T GET IT.
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@Goldtop
If I have offended you, I am sorry.
Now lets put it all behind us and reason together.
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@WisdomofAges
You don't have anything but the most superficial understanding, and if you ever came to knew the truth of the matter, you would look back at these days of your ignorance with great shame.
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@WisdomofAges
Yes, you have made clear what your opinion is.
You take the easy way out by being unreasonable.
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@WisdomofAges
The Truth is not an idiot comic book character.
The end result of Christian discipline is a clear intellect. How can I reject this? I would rather reason with a clear intellect than an intellect pushed to and fro by the desires and motivations of a heart corrupted.
A clear intellect is more scientific, more creative, and there is still plenty of mystery to this world.
You don't really know what practicing the faith is or even really looks like. Are you open minded to being wrong(because you are) or are you too close minded to overcome your prejudice?
Come, let us reason together.
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@ludofl3x
I don't know what you expect to get from me, but I don't appreciate you accusing me of being intentionally difficult. That is certainly not my intention. No smoke and mirrors.
Do I really need to explain why I believe that The Ultimate Reality is God? Can you show me anything greater? Of course you can't. Isn't that reason enough?
But this is also what the church teaches, and everything about what the church teaches has to do with purifying the heart towards God, who is The Truth, and taking care of orphans, widows, and the destitute.
So what can be said against any of this?
I can say atheism is wrong because it denies God, The Truth.
I can say Islam is wrong because the Koran expresses an ignorance of Christian theology, not recognizing the Jesus we believe and also claiming that we believe Mary is part of the trinity.
I can say Judaism is wrong because they rejected Jesus, and didn't get on board with The Church, which is truly Israel.
I can say every other church that calls itself Christian is wrong because they attempt to divide the body of Christ by deviating from the church founded by Jesus and The Apostles. They are not Orthodox. There is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
And I can also say that there are bits and pieces of the truth in all the varying traditions of the world, but true religion in this day and age takes the form of Orthodox Catholic Christianity.
And if you want to talk in detail about any of this, please make it one thing at a time, I only have 15 minute breaks.
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@Goldtop
I see you are giving me a fine example to follow. I shoukd strive to be more like you.
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@WisdomofAges
You don't seem to be open minded to the possibility that you are wrong.
Everything you post screams of hypocrisy.
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@ludofl3x
I defined God as The Ultimate Reality. You are the one that defined God as "amorphous consciousness".
You, a God denier do not get to define what we believe.
I could connect the dots for you, but historically those who wished to enter the church, Catechumans, would have to be educated over a period of sometimes 3 years. You won't even accept what I do tell you, and you want me to teach you anything? This is clearly foolishness.
You don't really want me to teach you Christianity, you want to dismiss what you think is Christianity.
The God we believe in is The Ultimate Reality. That is what we acknowledge as God.
If you don't believe that, I can't show you how it is the case.
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@WisdomofAges
Roman Papalism is a heresy of Orthodox Christianity.
What that means is that you are saying that pacifism is a murderous ideology because a large group of violent thugs calls themselves "the pascifists".
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Reality itself? Did you mean to say ultimate reality? You have said so many times that the two are completely different, it would be a shame for you to change your mind on that point so soon after I state that I agree with you on it.
Stopping you right there.
No, I have been very consistent. The issue here was that not just any reality is The Ultimate Reality. It is Reality itself, reality as it truly is. Not "It is reality that Dallas is a city in Texas."
And this is what Orthodoxy believes, that God is The Eternally Existing One. You attempting to make this into a semantic argument is vain, because making a straw man god to replace God is not a valid argument. Besides that, it isn't honest because instead of trying to understand what it is you are dismissing, you are simply trying to justify your own rejection of that which you are wholly ignorant of.
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@ludofl3x
Can you demonstrate that this being is eternal? Failing that, can you demonstrate that the universe in one form or another itself isn't eternal? No one says a word about god until about 5000 years ago. Up until then, he wasn't there, other gods were.
If the universe is eternal, then God of course would be eternal, because the universe does not precede existence. If the universe did in fact have a beginning, God is still eternal because existence precedes time.
Existence precedes conception of existence, so to say that God didn't exist before God was said to exist is a fallacy.
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@Goldtop
The only God I acknowledge, the only thing I acknowledge as being God is The Ultimate Reality. The Truth.
If you don't accept that my God is The God of Truth, there is nothing else that can make sense. Everything else comes from this.
But I am unfortunately dealing with people who falsely believe they understand my faith better than I do.
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@Goldtop
You told me to shove a vegetable up my bum, and you refuse to show me charity.
You also can think of several reasons to hate me.
I can't help but believe that you accusing me of bringing hatred is a projection of yourself.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You are the only one playing word games, don't kid yourself.
I know what I believe. You are being arrogant.
The Ultimate Reality is God. The Supreme Being is God.
I know my God. You don't. You are superstitious.
So instead of trying to argue dictionary with me, why don't you believe what I am telling you instead? Mine isn't a semantic argument. The Orthodox Church teaches that The Truth is God. This has been understood for thousands of years. The monastics have been writing about it for thousands of years. If you think that any created force in the universe can overpower The Supremacy of The Truth, you are a fool.
You denying God amounts to little more than denying reality itself.
And I until we get this straight, there is not much else to discuss, because you are trying to jump from kindergarten to 4th grade. You want to argue around this, and this is the essential most important thing!
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@3RU7AL
It really shouldn't be.
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@WisdomofAges
Yes, proof that you aren't talking about what we believe.
Obviously God is older than 10,000 years.
And what do you present?
Proof that you make no effort to understand what you are dismissing.
That makes you a fool.
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@WisdomofAges
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
So what you are having an identity issue, because God wasn't invented.
"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; that frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish"
You would not exist without God.
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@Goldtop
Well, what I believe is not what you say I believe. If you don't believe me, what then? It seems only that you hate me without a cause.
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@WisdomofAges
I am honest.
What else do I have but for you to show me charity and believe me?
Instead of bombarding me with a wall of text, why not talk about one thing at a time?
The Orthodox Church is not God. We don't believe this.
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Orthodoxy is not Roman Papalism.
Neither is Islam Orthodoxy.
And both of these groups persecuted us.
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@Goldtop
I don't really value your opinion.
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@keithprosser
I could always leave. Then everyone go back to circle jerking in their nihilism as they debate sock puppets and children while pretending there is no God.
After all, the general attitude towards God here seems to be anything but that!
I mean what else can I do? I know my warnings will fall on the ears of the deaf, and my attempts to educate will be met with the scoffing and mocking of the self justified.
It probably doesn't help that I actually don't like to debate or argue.
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@Goldtop
Maybe I should strive to be more like you, the paragon of competence.
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@keithprosser
Use your good sense.
The Ultimate Reality
The Supreme Being
How can these definitions mean the same thing?
Must I reiterate that my religion is older than the English language and I know what I believe?
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There is nothing violent or evil about Orthodox Christianity, and given how many millions of martyrs of the faith there have been throughout the centuries, this claim is asinine. As is identifying us with Roman Catholics and Muslims who have historically persecuted us.
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@WisdomofAges
If you wanted to have an honest conversation, we could you know.
That isn't going to happen so long as you adopt this approach.
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Perhaps it is time for the humans to be erased and replaced with a more advanced non violent species....of similar form....the universe does notneed these pathetic creatures contaminating other worlds...
And the truth comes out. The insipid rhetorician is really projecting his own hatred on all those he hates.
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@WisdomofAges
The ultimate REALITY is the ......ILLUSION....
You're an idiot.
No amount of vapid rhetoric is going to mask this.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
To those that know God but do not acknowledge God as being God, Saint Paul in his epistle to the Romans writes...
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things."
What is the supreme, final, and fundamental power to all reality?
The Truth. Existence. Actuality. The way things actually are. Clearly this has the greatest authority in all reality.
And I challenge you to find anything else that fulfills this, because you can't. You trying to semantically make God something other than God is a vain thing, because there is a cloud of witnesses, thousands of years worth of writings from the saints that back what I am saying, older than the English language itself, and all you have is your cleverness.
No amount of cleverness is going to invalidate God, and no amount of semantic jimmying is going to justify your lack of reverence for The Truth if you should decide to argue semantics in order to confuse the subject matter and justify your denial of reality.
How does Oxford define God? The Supreme Being.
The Supreme Being means the exact same thing as The Ultimate Reality.
What does Oxford say Being means?
Existence.
The Supreme Being and The Ultimate Reality are the same thing.
Do you understand or are you going to contradict me on this?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I will do it for you.
"Something that is the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality"
I know what I believe, and my faith is older than English.
Instead of believing me when I tell you what I believe, you instead are trying to wiggle around it semantically in order that you can appear to be right without actually being right.
I know what I believe, and my faith is older than English.
But the dictionary certainly does back up my position. You are simply being haughty.
There is no argument that stands against God. Your invincible ignorance is not a valid argument.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yes, that is certainly in the unabridged dictionary.
I probably posted that definition even on these forums several months ago.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
And you will note that just as "God" means something different than "god", so are there other ways of using the word reality.
So for me to say "Ultimate Reality" is a clarification of the reality that is being discussed.
Maybe you will like this definition as well, as it is applicable..
Full Definition of Superstition
1 a : a belief or practice resulting from ignorance, fear of the unknown, trust in magic or chance, or a false conception of causation
b : an irrational abject attitude of mind toward the supernatural, nature, or God resulting from superstition
2 : a notion maintained despite evidence to the contrary
As God is The Ultimate Reality, God by definition exists. To deny the existence of God is superstitious.
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@ludofl3x
You certainly have a right to choose delusion over truth. Thanks for not trying at all.
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@ludofl3x
Because that is what the church teaches, and one of the purposes of the church is to bring about a realization of this.
But as for me being a troll...
Trolling is a fishing term. Did not Jesus say "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men"?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I would not say "something", but other than that little nitpick, yes. The Ultimate Reality is neither derivative nor dependent and certainly exists necessarily.
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@ludofl3x
No, it is a stable full of horses.
Obviously.
I am talking about The One Reality. I am not talking about the reality that there are Germans living in Germany, or the reality that many dogs bark, or the reality that it tends to be colder in the winter than in the summer.
So the distinction is not arbitrary.
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@ludofl3x
So then, can you say that The Ultimate Reality exists?
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I would hve went with...
Appealing to knowledge when dealing with the ignorant.
Appealing to epistemelogical nihilism when dealing with someone who is educated.
Atheists don't really have a case when the God they are arguing against is The Ultimate Reality. There is no argument against this God.
Atheists know this, so instead they in effect reduce the debate to arguing that the map isn't perfect, that means the territory doesn't exist!
There is not much difference between a pagan and an atheist. An atheist is a pagan in denial usually. In the case of both the pagan and the atheist, they have for them a god that isn't God. While the pagan will usually acknowledge their gods, the atheist has an aversion to the very concept.
In the defense of atheists though, they tend to deny the reality of gods, and are wholly ignorant of God. Only the true blue nihilists in their heart deny The Ultimate Reality. The former simply don't know anything but gods, and may actually in their heart believe in God. The later have embraced their wickedness, and they are truly fools.
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