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@keithprosser
It is a bad idea to marry someone who is of a different religion than you.
I wouldn't ever recommend it.
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@disgusted
That might be what Calvinists believe, but that isn't what The real Christian church teaches, and there is only One Real Christian Church.So your god deliberately creates people to torture them for eternity. Good God.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
My faith isn't in true things, it is in The Truth itself.
There is a difference.
My God is The Truth itself. The God of Truth.
The Truth is the most perfect image of The Ultimate Reality. From my faith in The Truth, works manifest themself.
I worship God in Spirit and in Truth.
This is how we as people relate to God, through The Trinity.
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@keithprosser
Constantinople and Russia can feud all the want, but every other Patriarch is in communion with both, so that pretty much invalidates the idea that there is a genuine schism.
The prevailing opinion that I get is that it will blow over.
There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
None of these other so called churches are it.
And they can debate over interpretations of scripture all they want, but The Church existed before their scripture was compiled by THE ORTHODOX CATHOLIC CHURCH.
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@3RU7AL
Cabbage is a vegetable isn't a logical argument either.
But if you want to call God by the name of Deism, I would say that is the first time I ever heard of anyone using that as a name for God.
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Saint Paul at least expresses a belief on this in his first epistle to Corinth.
"But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her.
And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy.
But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?"
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@ludofl3x
Five pages and not a single attempt at answering the question, theists? For real??
Translation "I am willfully ignorant, that makes me right!"
The Ultimate Reality is God, there is no other.
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@keithprosser
Theologians have an impossible task because scripture is full of contrdictions and pardoxes. Islam solves that problem using the principle of 'abrogation'; Christians prefer to split into factions!
There is no such issue in The Church, and there are no factions in the church. You are either Orthodox or Heterodox.
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@ludofl3x
That is clearly taken out of context.
Free will is not being able to do whatever you want. That is not the free will you have.
Free will is the freedom of choice.
Like the choice to love the truth or arbitrarily disregard it in favor of the delusions of your fancy.
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@ludofl3x
Is this your reason for denying reality? It doesn't fit your own arbitrary sense of aesthetics?
Only protestants think everyone should read the bible, and that is why they have something like 23+ thousand churches who all believe different things.
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the very church descended from Jesus and the apostles. It is the original Church. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I think that counts for something.
But if you'd rather listen to Crazy uncle Joe who filled the proper paperwork and started their own church, go ahead.
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@ludofl3x
Space and time are necessary contingencies for created things. God is not a contingent existence. The Ultimate Reality cannot be contingent on anything, otherwise it wouldn't be what it is. It cannot require another reality to exist.
Though it might be hard to wrap your head around, you have free will and this in no way compromises God's sovereignty over all of creation.
Obviously, we don't truly have free will. Like, I can't jump to the moon and back on a whim. But as Keith pointed out, you have a freedom of choice. You can choose to go with God or you can choose to reject God. Nothing you choose undermines God in any way.
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@ludofl3x
Is god ever to blame for bad things happening? For example, is god at fault for childhood cancer existing? Did he author it, or was it brought about by 'the fall'? If your answer is no, god definitely put it there on purpose, okay, then god does things that are objectively bad.
I don't know any god, we are talking about God.
Without whom, there is no such thing as objectively bad. If there is no Ultimate Reality, there can be no truth.
Well, as we are all here existing, I think that proves that there is some form of reality. If there is reality at all, The Ultimate Reality exists.
Your church doesn't follow any part of the old testament? Because that's full of Jesus's dad telling people to commit violent acts.
The bible is not really your book to interpret, it belongs to the church.
So how do I know you're orthodox, really?
I can't say how you would know, but I don't think it is important.
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@ludofl3x
God doesn't need anyone.
I am not saying anything of what you are saying. That is how you are interpreting what I am saying, which is wrong.
The church does not condone violence. In fact, the church is even against forms of coercion that are even commonly accepted in some evangelical circles, like, going to a starving country and promising food to those who go to church services.
I am not conceding anything. I am rightly pointing out that just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn't mean they are a Christian. I am rightly pointing out that a group of murderous thugs who call themselves the pascifists do not represent pascifism.
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@ludofl3x
If you wanted to join, I suggest walking in to one and talking to a presbyter about it. They wouldn't immediately let you join the church, you would first go through a period of time as a catechuman where you would be educated about the faith and are given plenty of time to change your mind.
No, you cannot surprise God because as I said, God knows everything that you are going to choose out of your free will. God knows where you are going to be in 10 years. It isn't that God has no plan, it is that it was God's plan that things are this way.
If God was subject to time, then time would be a reality over God. As God is The Ultimate Reality, this cannot be the case. Time was created by God, who existed before time and has existence outside of time.
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@keithprosser
The disputes are only among the heretics, because Orthodoxy knows and recognizes that there is no old testament God and new testament God. There is one God, and it is the same God.
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@ludofl3x
In other words, you find being called out on an identity fallacy obnoxious.
Oh yeah, I forget, it is 2019 where self identification is proof of identity.
The Orthodox Church does not believe in "Holy Wars". The Bishop of Rome has called crusades. Islam has Jihad built into it. The protestants had holy wars from the beginning.
The Church does not persecute those that are at variance from it, and The Church does not wage wars. No, quite the contrary, we are as lambs to the slaughter.
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@keithprosser
As I said, that was the emperor.
The emperor is not the church.
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@WisdomofAges
This is really just a medium for you to practice your vain rhetoric isn't it? You certainly are not having a conversation with me.
And that is why you don't get any good responses from me. Everything you say is a lack of substance fluffed up with rhetoric. What is the point in talking to you if tou are simply going to play the windbag?
Is responding with a few sentences at a time beneath you?
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@ludofl3x
There is only One Church. If your church was not that church, it isn't the church. You can dispute me on this and make it an arbitrary thing, but you'd be wrong.
The Church doesn't teach that God absolutely determined everything. If that was the case, you would not have free will. This is what Calvinists teach, and they are not The Church.
God doesn't change because The Ultimate Reality precedes time and is not subject to it. There is never a time when God is not The Ultimate Reality.
And as such, God can see the end and beginning of all things. We still have free will though, even if God knows what we are going to choose.
And that is what The Church teaches.
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@ludofl3x
You are not part of the church, and you are an unbeliever. You really don't have any ground to stand on.
You are simply speaking about things you don't understand.
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@keithprosser
This was clearly an act of the emperor and not the church.
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@DeusVult
Orthodoxy doesn't tie its faith to the emperor any more than Rome did. In fact, there were times post Christianization of the Emperor when the Emperor persecuted the church. This reference is hardly ancient, and this Patriarch isn't even canonized as a Saint. Unlike in Rome, the entire Church cannot be corrupted through the concentration of Authority into one human being.
Rome did crown a "Roman Emperor" in the west, and it was this Holy Roman Emperor that eventually pressured The Roman Bishop into corrupting the creed and thus subject to anathema.
Besides that, flying in the face of all precedent in Church history, The Bishop of Rome actually believed that he could depose and select bishops and Patriarchs by his own whim.
What else? Calling crusades, sacking the churches in the east, stealing relics, killing Orthodox Christians, torturing heretics, the list goes on.
In fact, it is probably the fault of Roman Catholicism that the west has become secularized, because it's scholastic theologians thought they were more clever and advanced than The Church fathers.
No, Papal supremacy certainly is a heresy, and if nothing else should act as proof of this sin it should be the reformation and the shameful state of the Roman church even today. Overrun by sodomy, apostasy, and all manners of evil.
No, The Roman church is cursed, and will be until they return to orthodoxy.
But come now, use good sense. Was the New Testament written in Latin or Greek? It was written in Greek. Our scriptures are in Greek.
Which church has gone through the most persecution? The wicked one has done everything they can to stomp out Orthodoxy, but we are still alive today and strong. The Papal church is infamous for persecuting the world, and I am sure that if they had the political pull to do so even today, they would be torturing those who do not submit to the bishop of Rome, just as they did even to many of our saints and martyrs. Even some of their own saints!
The Orthodox church maintains that it is Jesus Christ who is king over all Christendom, not The Pope of Rome, and it doesn't matter how may feet the Pope washes, and how humble he makes himself, as long as he claims supremacy over the whole church he has adopted the position of anti-Christ.
I cannot accept Papal Supremacy, and neither does the church. It never has.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Oh, I wouldn't put a number on it.
I believe what I believe because it is really obvious to me that faith in The Truth is better in every conceivable way than faith in vain things. It seems obvious to me that The Truth is what makes one free, and that salvation is only in The Truth.
I look around me at the things that make life for the pagans, and I cannot say I envy them for putting their faith in lying vanities. It seems to me that this only leads to mental illness, dissatisfaction with living, slavery to the passions, the moral decay of society, and descent into tyranny as the love for many waxes cold and people become increasingly more self absorbed and detached from reality.
I look at the society around me, and I am very concerned. I do not envy the people who are caught up in this delusion. It is a road to hell.
I have chosen The Truth because it is superior in every way.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
As this is what I believe, I would say pretty confident.
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@WisdomofAges
You are not giving me the impression that you are reasonable. What do you have to offer?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What a bummer that this is what you got out of it. Oh well.
Let me put into my own words.
The Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Of one essence and undivided.
The Father is The Ultimate Reality
The Son and The Holy Spirit are how The Father is manifested in this world.
The Son is The Word of God. The Word of God is Truth. God spoke everything into existence. There was never a time when The Word did not exist, it is co-eternal with The Father, begotten, not made through The Father. Everything that was made was made through The Word. If something exists, The Truth is in it, and nothing can exist without there being Truth in it.
The Holy Spirit is the breath of life that enlivens all creation. It is The Spirit of Truth. It originates or proceeds from The Father, and like The Son is co-eternal, there never was a time when it did not exist.
So these three hypostases or persons as it is commonly translated, are homousa or of same substance/essence as it is commonly translated with eachother. It is One God of same substance and undivided.
The three persons are different manifestations of God. So still, one God. These persons don't really exist apart from each other.
So Jesus Christ is The Word or The Son of God made flesh in a hypostatic union. Fully Human, fully divine. The Christian discipline is about abiding in The Word, becoming One in Christ and becoming partakers of this divine essence and coheirs along with Christ. This is done through purifying the heart unto truth, because the ideal Christian is to become less so that The Truth becomes more manifested in themselves. This is done through purifying the heart, and that is the point of our religious discipline.
So we Christians are the body of Christ, and we are given our flesh through The Church which is The Virgin Mary.
Or as St Cyprian put it, and forgive me for using anothers words "You cannot have God for a father if you do not have the church for your mother."
And that Church is The Orthodox Catholic Church, and that is part of the mystery ad to why we revere Mary so much. She is the mother of all believers! The Church, and Jesus Christ gets his flesh from his mother, conceived of the holy spirit.
These are not easy things to explain, nor are they easy to grasp. I am doing my best. Do you have any questions?
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@ludofl3x
No, God cannot be surprised.
Intercessary prayer is still not a futile exercise. If someone asks you for prayer, and you pray for them, doesn't it mean something to them? If nothing else, the charity of the action makes it a good thing.
And I am in no way trying to diminish the efficacy of prayer. I myself have had my prayers answered, and they have been answered in front of witnesses who marvelled at how they were answered.
So what can I say? This isn't really something you can be scientific about. There is no way to test these things. Do I believe in prayer? I certainly do. I couldn't reasonably expect to convince you of what I am convinced of.
But there are other aspects of prayer that I am sure even you could hold on to and make sense of. One of the main purposes of prayer is to align the heart properly.
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@ludofl3x
We Orthodox believe that God gave us the gift of free will. As that is the case, no, not everything has been determined already. We are responsible for our choices.
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@Goldtop
As I said, if I ever called you these things, I hope you accept my apology.
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@Goldtop
You keep making this claim, but that isn't really how I think.So, calling us all idiots and morons, murderous scum and those who aren't worthy to lick your boot doesn't hurt? It's all good? This is what you think of others.
And well, if I ever called you any of these things, I hope you accept my apology.
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@ludofl3x
Moses prays that God wouldn't destroy the rebellious Hebrews when they were wandering in the desert. There are many more biblical examples of prayer being used in scripture as a means of asking God for mercy. Examples of God saying that this is going to happen, and then holding off from doing it because of prayer.
So intercessary prayer is certainly scriptural.
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@Ramshutu
Couldn't hurt. At the very least, it is a good thing to think of others besides the self.
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We Orthodox pray an awful lot during liturgy, in the intercessary way I mean. We pray for pretty much everyone. We ask God to show mercy.
I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Most of what I said was using my own words, so maybe you should read over it again.
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@keithprosser
Purity of heart has to do with how we relate to God, not anything else!
You can't tempt someone with sex who is averse to sex. Is someone who is not tempted by sex pure of heart for that reason alone? You cannot tempt someone with money who does not value money. Is someone who is not tempted by money pure of heart for that reason alone?
No.
And really, tempt might be a bad choice of words. You can be tempted without having a lust. Jesus was tempted in the desert, but he did not have lust.
A defiled heart is pulled to and fro by their lusts. Even if they do not act on their lusts, their lusts oppress them internally.
With purity of heart, there is a type of stillness.
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@ludofl3x
As soon as "The Ultimate Reality" turns from a meaningless string of syllables into what it is those words actually mean when put together, the truth of what I am saying is self evident.
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@Polytheist-Witch
@ludofl3x
Why one God?
It's very simple.
The Ultimate Reality is God.
All other gods are created beings. If they exist at all, it was because of God. They are gods in name only.
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@keithprosser
Just because you can't be tempted doesn't mean you have a pure heart either.
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@keithprosser
The inability to be tempted could be seen as a fruit of a pure heart.
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@DeusVult
The letter of Pope Clement to the church in Corinth is not proof that The Pope of Rome is head over the entire church, and neither is the church in Corinth writing to them an evidence of this.
Orthodox Catholicism does not tie the faith to a secular authority, but Rome certainly does, as not only did the Pope use fabricated documents to form the papal states, but is still technically the head of state.
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@DeusVult
As Papal Supremacy was never at any point in history accepted by the church, and there are numerous examples before the schism of Rome being rebuked for trying to exercise authority outside its ecclesiastical jurisdiction...
...No, rejection of Rome's assertion of Papal Supremacy is not a heresy.
Rome would say that, but out of the 5 patriarchs, they were the ones that were booted. 4 against 1.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
It is written in The Gospel according to St. John the Theologian...
"The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
To worship God in Spirit and in Truth is to worship God through The Holy Trinity.
"He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
So to abide in The Truth, which is The Son in The Trinity is how The Son can be fully divine and fully human.
As the Christian discipline is about abiding in The Truth, that is where everything comes from.
Jesus said "blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God", and so how we abide in The Truth is by purifying the heart or Nous. This is a lifelong practice.
At least in Orthodox Christianity, and I can not speak for the heterodox, Christianity is about worshipping God in spirit and truth through the active purifying of the heart.
Do you have any questions about anything I just said?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Reality is one of those things that cannot be disproven. At best, you can prove that how you perceive reality is not real.
The Ultimate Reality would be reality as it truly is, as opposed to how reality is perceived.
There is nothing with a greater authority, control, influence, capacity, physical might, the ability to produce effect, etc than Reality as it Truly is in Actuality. The Ultimate Reality. The Supreme Being.
And to maybe jump ahead a bit to further relate this to the Orthodox conception of God as The Trinity, the most perfect image of God is The Truth. The acting force that enlivens everything is The Holy Spirit.
And so we have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three hypostases, One Ousa or homousa. Three Persons, co-eternal, undivided, One God. And it is a mystery.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If that were the case, it would not be The Ultimate Reality.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Yet acknowledging The Ultimate Reality as God is not necessary for it to have sovereignty over all things.
A person born with female genitalia may say they are a male, but their delusion does not overthrow reality.
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@keithprosser
It seems like for some, politics is their religion.
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@Goldtop
I can not help how you interpret the things I say. I would say that better for you would be to simply forgive me and move on.
If it helps, pretend I am a child.
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@keithprosser
The statement stands independent of whomever is the alleged originator of the phrase is.
If a word of truth came from a guy with needlles in his arms laying in a puddle of vomit, the wretchedness of this person would not make the word of truth less because of who said it.
If a word of truth came from a guy with needlles in his arms laying in a puddle of vomit, the wretchedness of this person would not make the word of truth less because of who said it.
And for all we know, that is where A J Muste originally heard this saying from.
There is a billboard on the highway when I am heading to work.. it says "A house divided against itself cannot stand" - Abraham Lincoln
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