Mopac

Better to be a smart ass than a dumb ass, I have always heard. You refusing my answers is not me intentionally avoiding your questions. I would appreciate it if you showed me a little bit more charity.

I would say that you in all likelyhood have superstitious understanding of the supernatural due to your materialistic "education". In other words, how you understand the supernatural is not likely how the church understands the supernatural.

And as I said before, and this is the truth, The Ultimate Reality is not a perception. It is not a postulation. It is exactly what it means. That which is ultimately real. Reality in the truest sense of the world. Your ideas and theories about it are absolutely not it. Can't be. In fact, the Ultimate Reality is not an abstraction, more accurately, it is the total absence of abstraction, and what you yourself are working with is an abstraction. So you are understanding that which is not abstraction through the medium of an abstraction.

Created things are not only contingent on this Ultimate Reality at the very least, but even other created things. The Ultimate Reality is not contingent on anything. It is The Uncreates.

Yeah, I know, I really should do better to follow your example, right?

The Vatican is Roman Papalism. They are not Orthodox. The Bishop of Rome was given the boot for arrogantly presuming supremacy over the church and corrupting the faith. 

1400 years of dark ages is a myth of protestantism because they don't remember anything before the reformation. Protestant/evangelical/reform/anarchy "christianity" is not Orthodox Christianity.

You are certainly not talking Orthodox Christianity, which is actually real Christianity. 

Any form of coercion is very much not Orthodox. Free will is a gift from God that we hold in reverence.

Slavery and servitude to who?

How does the church "punish people"? 

Power and control?

None of this is applicable to Orthodox Christianity.

Your conception of what my faith is about is very skewed and I don't see how it aligns with reality.

Highly venerated saint in Orthodoxy, btw

None of that is actually what the church teaches.

And fyi, St Nicholas, was a real person. Not really similar to Santa Claus, though he reportedly did give poor children gifts.

Maybe I should strive to be more like you, the clear paragon of an ideal participator of these forums.

There is no right relationship with God without turning from sin.

How am I supposed to answer such an absurd question..

"Tell me my relationship with the ultimate reality."

What kind of answer are you even expecting? 

Answer your own question through self reflection. Do you have a knowing and active relationship with God in spirit and in truth? Or do you rest on your knowledge, too prideful to look at yourself and see the things that keep you from being truly honest about the truth? Are you swayed by your passions?

You can answer your own question better than I.

But you don't really know what I believe, and I don't truly believe you are interested. You are, after all, coming off as very hostile and cynical. This is not really a conducive attitude for learning. 

You would get a lot more out of our conversation if you weren't rude.

Check the post above yours.

Your accusations of me intentionally avoiding questions is very false. I am answering to the best of my ability.

I am teaching you something now so that we can have a real discussion about it. Being arrogant because you think I'm a fool does not serve you or this discussion.

If something had a beginning or an end, it couldn't be the ultimate reality, the ultimate reality is eternal. All realities are contingent on it. If something has a beginning or an end, that means time is a reality greater than it.

The ultimate reality must always be what it is, it cannot ever not be what it is. Sommething cannot be the ultimate reality now and be replaced with another later.

It is reality that Donald Trump is President of The United States. In 10 years, Donald Trump will not be President of The United States. This is a reality, but it is not Ultimate Reality.

No contingent reality can be The Ultimate Reality. If what you are thinking of is contingent on something else, that something else would have authority over The Ultimate Reality. The Ultimate Reality must have the greatest authority to be what it is. It cannot be contingent on anything.

And so "The Ultimate Reality" is very specificly reality in the truest sense of what that means.

So it is not a meaningless distinction. If it was meaningless, the distinction would not be necessary.

And the difference between The Ultimate Reality and everything else is what we understand as the distinction between The Uncreated and creation.

Maybe it would be better if you didn't presume to understand anything and go back to the basics.

You know what ultimate reality means.

Whatever that is, that is God.

One thing it clearly isn't is a perception of it.

If these answers don't conclusively address your questions, please be considerate of the fact that I only have 15 minute breaks to respond, so being brief would be appreciated.

The Christian discipline is all about abiding in The Truth.

The Truth is eternal.

It is a hard connection to make I guess.

Mysteries for a reason I suppose.

You seem to be very passionate.

One of the things we strive for is disspassion, because passion tends to cloud judgement.

Your attitude is not actually conducive to learning. You are very dismissive. Very quick to declare victory. 

My religion is older than the English language.

Absolutely, this is what the church teaches, what the monastics right, what is witnessed by scripture, and it is really obvious to me that none of it can make any sense without this understanding of God.

The God we believe is The Truth, and that is what our relationship is with. The Christian discipline is about purifying the heart  or cleansing the nous. We Orthodox understand this. The Orthodox Church is the church founded by Jesus and The Apostles. Our Church has been around since the beginning and has faithfully preserved the faith while these other reformation churches are pushed around by the prevailing culture. We are very different, and their claims do not have the same weight.

If you would talk to me in a respectful manner, and engage me as an equal rather than a dog, I would love to have an HONEST conversation.

 I don't feel obligated to defend myself or my viewpoints to someone who thinks they have it all figured out and is really just looking for someone to abuse.

I am certainly able to elaborate on and speak at great length about what I am saying. However, if you lack charity, where are you going to get? Nowhere. You aren't judging me rightly. You aren't really even asking questions, you are just riding on your preconceptions and coming at me like an ambush journalist. Again I say, you are not judging me rightly.

What am I asking? Engage me honestly. I am here to educate, and I can hardly be blamed if people who don't really want to learn fail to do so.

If you don't accept that God with a capital "G" refers to "The Ultimate Reality", we aren't really even talking about the same thing.

I don't have to prove that this is what God means. That is what we believe.

But if that isn't good enough for you, Merriam-webster says "The supreme and or ultimate reality" and Oxford says "Supreme being".

Both mean the exact same thing if understood properly.

Oddly enough, I have probably explained this difference more than just about anything. You are coming at me rather arrogantly.

Maybe if you are more polite I will be more inclined to respect your question.

You are, after all, being mighty presumptuous.

Hey, if you want to believe people are destinned for hell and there is nothing they can do about it, believe in Calvinism. For 1500 years the church did not teach this. We put the bible together. It is our book. Not John Calvin's book.

And no matter how off track you are, you can always repent and choose good over evil.

You don't understand.

The Ultimate Reality is God.

Every atheist argument is contingent on making God something other than this, so it is not meaningless. Quite the opposite. 

And another. thing, there is no "my ultimate reality". The words are not meaningless.

Do you understand what ultimate reality means? There can only be ONE. It is what it is. Exactly what it means. How can words do it justice? That is what we recognize as being The One True God. The very God of Truth.

The church fathers didn't teach Calvinism. It isn't what the church teaches.

I don't normally link outside the site, but this article is first in a  series that pretty well explains the issue specifically between what Orthodoxy teaches and Calvinsim.

Not every claim has equal weight.

Every single bishop in our church can trace their lineage of ordination back to the apostles.

The Roman Bishop's claim of papal supremacy is simply not backed up by the behavior of the early church and a serious study of church history and the writings of the early church reveal this. They broke away from Orthodoxy, and protestantism is a result of their heresy.

Any other bases need to be covered? The New Testament is written in Greek. Does that not cover the rest?

Besides, Orthodox theology really is superior, and that has a great deal to do with the fact that we actually know the God we worship. We have a rich monastic tradition. Our methods actually work. The church isn't corrupted by culture.

It really is The Christian Church.

Yet even Isaiah wrote "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise."

There is a great mystery to eternal life, and that mystery is Jesus Christ, who is that very Word of God that stands forever.

Know God, know The Word. That is life eternal.

As I have been saying. Though it is not wrong to refer to a presbyter as a priest. 

The Orthodox Catholic Church is the original church, no heir necessary. 

I am giving you accurate information about a Church that is over a thousand years older than the English language. 

No.

The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

But God respects what people have to work with, and so because of his mercy, grace is extended to those who truly have a heart for God. The one who knows the hearts of all is God.

That is why the church doesn't really make a judgement call on who is or isn't going to be saved. In fact, being in The Orthodox Church does not guarantee your salvation!

It all has to do with the state of the heart. In the end, the state of our heart is the difference between heaven and hell. 

I didn't say. everyone is a priest. I said that every Orthodox Christian is a priest. What most people recognize and call the priest is a presbyter which is a special kind of priest.

I would say that it is silly to think that there can be reality at all without Ultimate Reality. The Ultimate Reality is not a concept, it is what it is. We use concepts to describe it, but what else can we do? We are after all, using the medium of creation to describe the Uncreated.

As for an afterlife.. after you die, the world will still be there. The Truth is eternal. 

"this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

And Jesus Christ is The Word of God, that word being Truth. As it is written...

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

So if that is all confusing, the meaning hidden in plain sight is this... Christianity is Truth Worship. That is Christianity demystified. Don't believe it? Well, I am telling you plainly what is expressed through parable.

Reality as it actually is. Reality in the truest sense of the world. Eternal unchanging reality. The reality that there is no reality apart from.

Contrast that, ultimate reality with the reality of....

Toenails.

Do you understand that The Ultimate Reality necessarily exists or are you still struggling with the concept?

Everything is contingent on understanding that this is The Name of God. If you don't accept this as God, it is impossible that anything else would make sense because everything else is contingent on this being God.

You have an idea of what Christianity is. When I say "The Ultimate Reality is God", you are trying to reconcile that with what you think you know Christianity to be.

That is why you are confused.

Your invincible ignorance is not a legitimate argument.

What I am saying is true, it isn't something you can just disregard.

It is not as arbitrary as you make it.

More nonsensical ravings from the nihilist punk.

Yet "Ultimate Reality" actually means something, it is not an arbitrary thing. Otherwise, why even make the distinction between "Ultimate Reality" and "reality"?

You dismiss what you don't understand.

There is no ultimate reality eh?

Nothing is ultimately real.

You profess this, so it can be understood that you have no conviction in anything you say. Nothing you say can be true. There can't even be a shadow of truth in it, because there is no truth. Reality to you is whatever you can get away with.

In otherwords, you have been defeated by your own nihilism.

Satan has let you down tremendously.

Sounds like you have an aversion to the word "God" because you are superstitious. 

The Ultimate Reality is God. If you believe in The Ultimate Reality existing, you believe in God, whether you acknowledge this as God or not.

But in doing so, you fulfill the scripture...

"...so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Calvinism is considered very much in error by Orthodox. Not only is it considered an error, but many presbyters I know find it even offensive.

Calvinism is very pervasive in protestant churches. The Presbytarian churches in particular are very Calvinist.

Believe it or not, not all "negroes" as you put it are trashy, and neither do "negroes" have a monopoly on being trashy.

Can either of you say...

"There is no ultimate reality"?

It seems natural that those who don't really believe in sexual immorality outside of rape would be just as blind to the immorality of abortion.

And why do you say that? I am an American. 

People tend to naturally segregate themselves.

But I am in a mixed marriage. We are black and white.

We get along just fine, and we are fine upstanding members of our community who have no intention of mugging anybody. That wouldn't be very Christian of us, now would it?

What do shepherds do to their sheep?

Haha..

No, but really, the explanation is actually in the text.

I'm pretty sure that if water is holy, it is God that makes it holy. And indeed, through the incarnation creation is sanctified.

By the way, we Orthodox don't use wafers. We use bread.

As far as you holding off until you are 70, maybe you'd be better off going to an Orthodox Church. They usually have classes. It isn't like they will just baptize you on the spot. They aren't protestants, you know.

I am of course, specifically referring to a presbyter or a bishop.

But no, really you are the one who is confused, not me.

As The Orthodox Church is the state church of Greece...

...well...

Some people will never get over the fact that women can't be priests, but the priest serves as a living icon of Christ during liturgy, and we cannot have a woman do that anymore than we could paint a picture of Mary as a male.

The greatest of the saints has the honor of being a female. Mary, the Theotokos.

But yeah, no church is more overtly trinitarian than the Orthodox Church. 

The pagans don't have The Truth as their God. They worship for gods created things and forces of nature. It is not the same. 

Earlier in Timothy it talks about women prophesying, so when it says to keep silent it specifically is refering to chatting during liturgy.

And that is what Orthodoxy teaches, and we are very Trinitarian.

I was giving you the opportunity to ask!

The purpose of it, like the entirety of the law, is to align the heart towards God, who is The Truth. It wasn't just any sacrifice that was accepted, but the firstfruits. This is a prioritizing God over anything.

Besides that, most sacrifices were also eaten. In fact, this is how the priests got fed!

But if the sacrifices themselves appeased God, it wouldn't be the case that the prophets constantly made a point that the sacrifices themselves did not do so. It was more important to live in mercy and truth.