Mopac

The main difference between hell as understood in the west and in Orthodox Churches are as follows...

The west either believes hell is seperation from God or a fiery fiery pit of torments.

Orthodoxy does not accept that hell is seperation from God, rather the love of God through a choice to reject it. Depending on one's spiritual state and preparedness, someone will experience the fully manifested divine presence as peace and joy or shame and anguish.

To hate God is to hate yourself as a divine bearer of God's image.

So really, identity issues are central to this, which is why in our walk we often find ourselves identifying with something that isn't who we really are! These corruptions are a cheapening of who we really are, which are bearers of God's image. Our depravity is like mud covering this image, but as it is central to what a human is, it cannot be ridden of.

There is a huge difference in spirit between how the pagans worshipped their gods and how God is worshipped.

You can't tell the difference because you only see external things but fail to see the spirit behind it.

For example, you think sacrifices are for placating God. Maybe so with the pagans, but not the case for Israel. Neither will lip service will get you nowhere with God. 

The Truth is God. That being the case, the religion we have that worships this God is about directing our hearts towards The Truth, to abide in The Truth, and to place no false god before The Truth.

You can't tell the difference between this and paganism, so you deny The Truth itself. In doing so, you make yourself the fool. But God is certainly long suffering towards your rebellion, and is forgiving and merciful towards those who repent from their evil deeds.

Disgusted is a nihilist, so he isn't going to accept any evidence as valid. If he himself ever uses evidence, it is because it is convenient for him to do so, not because he believes it.

No, God is The Ultimate Reality, and that is how The Church has always understood God. I have read the church fathers and plenty of monastics. I am very confident about this. 

In fact, not accepting this literally throws everything off. What is purifying the heart towards an idol or created thing? Nonsense. Self inflicted delusion. That isn't what the faith is, nor has it ever been.

But the west has forgotten the faith because it has never known anything but a heretical form of Christianity that inevitably leads to secularism and atheism.

So it is not about what you believe. Most atheists aren't nihilists. Most atheists don't know any better. It is about what your words mean, and when you are in denial of God, you are either saying that you don't believe anything is ultimately real or that there is no ultimate reality.

And I have to teach these things to those who believe in God as well, so you are wrong to say that I am simply trying to sound convincing. I am telling the truth plainly.

And I am certainly not claiming anything other than you don't know any better, not that you are truly depraved or a complete fool.

Yet Paul, refering to the church in his letter to the Galatians writes "peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

The Church certainly sees itself as Israel, and always has. 

And socialism certainly is a religion. 

Definition of religion courtesy of Merriam-webster...

"a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"

And it is a very intolerant religion at that.

You say you are an atheist, which means you don't believe in God.

Merriam-webster tells me that God is The Supreme or Ultimate Reality.

Oxford tells me that God is The Supreme Being.

Atheism is nihilism. Your stated belief is that you don't believe anything is ultimately real. 

Seems to me that you have adopted an indefensible and patently self defeating position. An insane position. One that gives credibility to the psalm that reads, "Only a fool says in their heart there is no God".

In fact, most superstitions concerning God are contingent in bad language.

What bad language are you accusing me of using? 

The "Jewish religion" that you see today is descended from an anti-Christian pharisaical sect that didn't get onboard. I don't expect you to believe that though. After all, you can't even believe that Peter existed! Strange.

It is obvious that Roman Catholicism broke away from Orthodoxy and not the other way around following a real study of church history. Besides that, their actions speak for themselves. Torturing and burning to death those that don't submit to The Pope, waging crusades, sexually abusing children for hundreds of years...

Really, you have much reason to prop up Roman Catholicism, because you of course would love Christianity to either be associated with that particular heresy or protestantism, which historically has not been much better when it comes to waging so called "holy wars" and persecuting those who don't step in line with their churches.

Well, I'll have you know that the ones who get blamed for it and tend to get killed over all this tend to be Orthodox Christians, and protestants in particular love to claim our martyrs as their own.

And by the way, people like you who follow the socialist religion? More Orthodox Christians have been killed by those following your religion than any other. The genocide your people commited against mine would make even the Muslims blush!

Well, we don't thirst for vengeance. Revenge is not very Christian. We bless those who persecute us, and pray for those who despitefully use us, as Jesus Christ instructed. And I would rather see you repent and be saved than tormented by your own wickedness.

Well, technically you could say I am a priest I suppose. However, I am specifically referring to someone who can be present physically, preferably a presbyter. I am not a presbyter. These are usually what people think of as priests.

The Orthodox Church is the continuation of Israel. 

As it is written in Peter's first Epistle...

So yes, we Orthodox of the Christian race are a nation of priests.

And The Orthodox Church is the very church of Jesus Christ. It is The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

"He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame."

Well, until you accept it you are going to continue on holding every heretical argument as being representative of what The Church teaches.

And believe me, Orthodoxy is very different than the thousands of protestant churches, or even the Latin Church that protestantism revolted from.

The Orthodox Church is THE Church following Jesus and the Apostles. 

Well, you are wrong, because the book itself was written by the ekklésia, or those called out from the world to be set apart as a nation of priests.

As it is even written in the book of Exodus, "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation."

That being the case, of course there was a Church Tradition.

The Orthodox Church is the only real Christian Church.

You have no fear of God, that is why you have embraced arbitrariness and shamelessly commit evil. Your conscience seared with a hot iron, dulled in its sense. You have reduced yourself to a mocker.

You hate The Truth. And as it is written,

"the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding."

The bible is meant to be read in the context of Church Tradition, not in the context of the pagan society or the heresy of gnosticism.

And so, you refuse sound advice to consult an Orthodox Priest because you are approaching this "reading" in the spirit of irreverence.

"A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth."

Funny how we Orthodox know better that it is God who is the judge of these things, not us.

Yet here you are, mocking me by saying things you don't even believe in.

It was not even uncommon for church fathers to refer to Christianity as being a race.

But yes, we are certainly called out as all Orthodox Christians are considered priests.

In other words, you are demanding a miracle because can't believe in Wisdom or living out the truth on their own merits.

How depraved.

My religion is Truth Worship.

You can't see past images.

And you don't even believe in "Hinduism" as if that was a real religion anyway. There is no "Hinduism", it is a label made up by the British to describe the myriad of beliefs found in India.

Yet you still say that I am confusing "God is real" with "God is reality".

Which shows you don't get it, and it is in fact you who are confused. I stand in unison with the church. You do not.

The Ultimate Reality IS God.

And you, in your foolishness say that The Ultimate Reality exists but God doesn't. 

The Ultimate Reality is God

Wisdom is God's Son, The Word of God, who is God

The enlivening spirit of Truth who fills all things is The Holy Spirit, who is God

And these three consubstantial, of the same essence, 1 and undivided. The Father being the unknowable essence of God, and the Son and The Spirit being how God is manifested in creation.

And this is truth of a certainty, but if you would rather embrace arbitrariness by making all these claims "fill in the blank", do so at your own detriment. Wisdom comes to those who seek it, and discernment is the crown of wisdom.

I am not confused, I know what my faith is. You do not. I would say you pretending to makes you awfully arrogant.

And since you can't accept the very fundamental, the single most essential truth of my faith, you get nothing else. 

You don't know my God because you lack the charity to get past your own superstitions.

And that is how I know that the truth isn't in you.

Yet in the same post you blaspheme God you confess that God exists. What can you say? That Ultimate Truth is nothing like I can imagine it to be?

Find me anyone who would dispute you on this! Obviously imagination, something which is by definition creation, can not be The Uncreated!

And my words you will not take as a sign, because if there is anything you are in error about it certainly isn't this!

The Only Reality is God.

Don't need truth to be good.

Gotcha. I guess it makes sense that good is about as arbitrary as everything else.

I guess that is why you think children in Christian schools shouldn't be allowed to pray.

Making it a lot harder to believe that you wouldn't look the other way if Christians were taken away in unmarked vans never to be seen again. After all, believing in God according to you is not good.

I'd like to point out this one is even at a Christian school. Students are instructed to thank the sun and the rain not God.

Step in the right direction, eh?

The very same that exists today in the form of The Orthodox Church.

A step in the right direction, eh?

Why do you care? So you can ignore the very real advice I'm giving you, the actual advice you should take?

You are clearly critiquing the text by referencing and comparing to things outside of the text. You are passing judgement on the text itself. 

But as I said, you are reading the text outside of its intended purpose, which is to train a nation of priests, and you would be better off having an Orthodox priest to consult.

Unless your whole intent here is to demonstrate that you are pursuing this little project of yours irreverently. 

I am giving you good advice. You are not going to get anything by reading the way you do. I have been telling you this for what, 3 topics now? Maybe you should consider that I am telling you the truth.

Instead of explaining the obvious to you, I will instead point out something that may not be obvious to you.

Detached from its intended purpose, you aren't going to understand anything about scripture. The entire point of scripture is to train up a nation of priests. 

The way you are going over scripture is very irreverent. You would be edified a great deal more if you consulted an Orthodox Priest.

I would go a step further and say that because you are against The Orthodox Church, your interpretation would always be suspect. Really, it is our book to interpret.

All of the heretics claim to believe in the bible. Many these days even claim to believe in it alone! They say it interprets itself. Yes, there are even those who say they have been taught by angels.

Well, that is something heretics have had in common even in the earliest days. Not much has changed. Heretics rarely accept yhat this is what they are, and only in recent times have the especially prideful taken this as a badge of honor.

But The Orthodox Church is THE Church, and so if you aren't with us..... well....

Your cynicism is misplaced.

The Son of God is Wisdom, who you hate in your ignorance.

The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth, which is not in you because you deny The Son.

And if you had Wisdom in Truth, you would have The Most Perfect Image of God The Father!

Your are blind, but Christ can heal you of your blindness!

Who would have though that someone so hateful and ignorant would be a pinko.

Not surprised.

The God you don't even believe in was a socialist. That's funny.

Socialism violates several of the 10 commandments. For example, do not covet. Do not steal. No idolatry? Yeah, funny how anti-God and really anti-human socialist governemnts tend to be.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out that you want the pinkos to be in charge so that they would take care of this Christian problem.

From the confession of DocitheusShould the Divine Scriptures be read in the vulgar tongue [common language] by all Christians?
No. Because all Scripture is divinely-inspired and profitable {cf.2 Timothy 3:16}, we know, and necessarily so, that without [Scripture] it is impossible to be Orthodox at all. Nevertheless they should not be read by all, but only by those who with fitting research have inquired into the deep things of the Spirit, and who know in what manner the Divine Scriptures ought to be searched, and taught, and finally read. But to those who are not so disciplined, or who cannot distinguish, or who understand only literally, or in any other way contrary to Orthodoxy what is contained in the Scriptures, the Catholic Church, knowing by experience the damage that can cause, forbids them to read [Scripture]. Indeed, tt is permitted to every Orthodox to hear the Scriptures, that he may believe with the heart unto righteousness, and confess with the mouth unto salvation {Romans 10:10}. But to read some parts of the Scriptures, and especially of the Old [Testament], is forbidden for these and other similar reasons. For it is the same thing to prohibit undisciplined persons from reading all the Sacred Scriptures, as to require infants to abstain from strong meats.
Question 2
Are the Scriptures plain to all Christians that read them?
If the Divine Scriptures were plain to all Christians that read them, the Lord would not have commanded such as desired to obtain salvation to search them; {John 5:39} and Paul would have said without reason that God had placed the gift of teaching in the Church; {1 Corinthians 13:28} and Peter would not have said of the Epistles of Paul that they contained some things hard to be understood. {2 Peter 3:16} It is evident, therefore, that the Scriptures are very profound, and their sense lofty; and that they need learned and divine men to search out their true meaning, and a sense that is right, and agreeable to all Scripture, and to its author the Holy Spirit.
Certainly, those that are regenerated [in Baptism] must know the faith concerning the Trinity, the incarnation of the Son of God, His passion, resurrection, and ascension into the heavens. Yet what concerns regeneration and judgment — for which many have not hesitated to die — it is not necessary, indeed impossible, for them to know what the Holy Spirit has made apparent only to those who are disciplined in wisdom and holiness.

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In other words, you doing it wrong.

Op claims to "just be readin" when really he's really making a critical commentary.

That is a very cynical way of looking at it, but it obviously isn't what we believe.

The Jesus we believe in is God, and the scriptures point to Jesus.

You don't know Jesus. You know a historical figure and think that is all there is to Jesus.

The Church has always approached the Old Testament in a typological manner.

In other words, you won't accept the possibility of it being the case so it isn't really a matter of whether the word was "virgin" or "young girl".

Regardless, Mary herself belonged to the early church. The virgin birth is what the church teaches. 

That is only if you buy into the idea that the masoretic texts, which are in themselves a translation, are more accurate than the septuigate. 

The masoretic texts are not actually in the original languages of the scriptures. The septuigate is almost a thousand years older, and even has passages in it that would have had to have been in the original. For example, there is an acrostic poem in psalms that is complete if you were to translate the septuigant into Hebrew, but is clearly missing in the masoretic text.

But there is no borrowing, that presumes the account of the virgin birth was made up. We certainly believe it actually happened, as did the earliest church.

There is also good reason to believe that the modern Jews, who decend from pharisees in particular who rejected Jesus and were even anti-Jesus, altered their texts after the exhile. The source material for the Masoretic texts were translated from were even acknowledged as being corrupt by those who made them.

The Orthodox Church sees itself as being Israel. And it is not just for Jews, because it is not blood that ties us together so much as faith. We are the seed of promise.

"My truth"

How arbitrary.

See post 5 for massive reveal

I doubt you believe anything you are saying.

Yet, you do not know Jesus so you speak of things you don't understand.

No. Those who submit to vain idols that cannot save are undiscerning and have been made dumb as beasts. They know nothing but wickedness.

It would be better for them to humble themselves, repent, and turn to love of The Truth that they may be saved.

You don't know Jesus, you're a pagan. 

Jesus is The Word of God. The Word of Truth. Wisdom itself.

"You, O men, I exhort; and utter my voice to the sons of men.