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@3RU7AL
I think I have told you this before, but I don't think you really get what I mean yet.
The western Latin church developed along very legalistic lines no doubt because of the influence of Augustine and even Latin itself. This passed on to western philosophy which is descended from Latin Scholasticism and Augustinian philosophies passed on to even the protestants and the secular culture that developed from this.
You keep thinking about these things as if we were in a court house.
This way of thinking is very alien and contrary to the way Orthodoxy understands things.
Besides, you are not treating God as The Ultimate Reality or The Truth but like a man. This is a very faulty and immoral way of looking at things.
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@Ramshutu
If a Doctor says the tests show you have cancer, it is a fact even before you go get your second opinion from another doctor who tells you the same thing.
I already know how you see my opinion though. You think that because you are perverse.
Subjugate women. What a joke. You are just parroting off propaganda that the people who are trying to destabilize your country implanted into your culture. Also, you aren't impressing me with your repeated arguments to straw men.
Throughout most of human history and even in the great majority of the world today, there is an established order of things that is determined both biologically and socially.
Biologically because women carry children in their wombs(can you imagine a woman who is 8 months pregnant chopping wood btw? Who would let them do that?), are able to nurse their children, and lets face it... are the weaker sex because women are by nature not as strong as men.
Socially because whether you acknowledge this or not, a woman is not a man, and men can not be expected to go against their natural inclinations and pretend that women aren't men. They ARE treated special, and even women know this because it is an easy thing to exploit.
But besides this, even going back to the OP and my point about how this fluidity of gender roles is really not the norm or even progressive but an anomaly... look at how they do things in Africa. In the middle east. In Japan. South Asia? You don't have to go further than Mexico!
So you live Canada, a country that has for decades been cooperating with things passed in the UN such as, and I'm not making this name up, The "Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women", which, to be frank, is written in such a way that if it were universally enforced, would require that any man who acknowledges that he is talking to a female would be chucked into a van and sent to a reeducation camp.
Yet even in these countries that have been reeducated over several generations to buy into this men and women are the same nonsense, no one really believes it. Men are still dogs and pigs. Women still exploit the fact. that men are dogs and pigs. Even the most hardcore of feminist witches will use her femininity to exploit men who will be put off guard and treat her differently because SHE IS A WOMAN.
So what? Maybe how you think things should be sounds nice, but it isn't real. It's bullshit.
As an Orthodox Christian, the strength of women is even acknowledged in our scriptures!
"Zerubbabel, began to speak: "Men, is not the king great, and men many, and wine strong? Who then rules them, or who is their master? Is it not women? Women gave birth to the king and to all the people who rule over sea and land. They came to exist from women, and women reared those who plant the vineyards from which wine comes. Women also make men's clothing and bring glory to men. Indeed, men could not exist without women.
"Moreover, if men are gathering gold, silver, or anything beautiful, but see one woman who looks good in form and beauty, they drop everything and gape at her, and with mouths wide open they stare at her. They all choose her rather than gold, silver, or any beautiful thing. Yes, a man will even forsake his own father who reared him and his own country so as to cleave to his own wife. He will live out his life and not even remember father, mother, or country. From all this, you should realize that women rule over you!
"Do you not work hard and grow weary with toil, then bring it and give it all to women? Furthermore, am an will put on his sword and go forth to rob, steal, and sail the seas and rivers. HE will stalk a lion and walk in darkness, and when he steals, whatever he takes and pillages he will bring back to his beloved. For a man dearly loves his own wife more than his father or mother. Yes, many men have lost all sense and even become slaves because of their wives. Many have perished, stumbled, or sinned because of their wives.
"Do you not believe me now? Is king not great in his authority? Are not all the countries moved with fear to touch him? Yet I saw him with Apame, the king's concubine and the daughter of the admirable Bartacus. She sat at the king's right hand, removed the crown from the king's head, and put it on her own. She also struck the king with her left hand. At this, the king gaped at her with his mouth wide open. When she smiled at him he laughed, and when he exasperated her, he flattered her that she might be reconciled with him. O men, in what way are women not strong, since they do such things?""
So where is this dominating over women myth you like to perpetuate in order to prop up your feeble delusions? How ridiculous! That certainly is not how to have a successful and happy marriage!
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The nonbelievers stumble.
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@Outplayz
I didn't say just allegorical.
I am saying there is an allegorical meaning to every story.
And every book of the bible is different. Some books are accounts of history.
What can I say?
The Church has never believed that the books of the bible were dictated by God. They are written by people who were inspired by God. There is a difference. And what makes these writings scripture is that we use them.
The Old Testament we use is what was in the septuigate. We use that because it was the scripture that the earliest Christians use. The New Testament was compiled over 300 years after Jesus. The writings were there, but because of certain heresies trying to pass off writings as being written by the church that really weren't, a canon of scripture had to be recognized. The church agreed that what is in the New Testament is legit.
However, the church has never stopped writing, and we have plenty of writings from monastics and saints that make up our Church Tradition. And so we honor Church Tradition while these others you call Christians do not. Protestants do not remember anything, they are churches with amnesia. The Roman Catholics are united by submission to The Pope, who has greater authority yhan Church Tradition.
And what can be learned from Church Tradition?
The faith is fundamentally Truth worship, and the Christian discipline has to do with purifying the heart so that one can be more sincere in their love of The Truth and Charitable in their interactions toward their fellow man.
The religion is Sincere faith and charity. And this is true religion.
You ask "Do I have to say that I am a Christian in order to be saved?"
My answer is, saying you are a Christian will not get you saved.
But I will also say this, if you are anti-Christian, you are warring against The Truth, and this is how the foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men. Those who stand against Christianity don't know what it is they are really condemning. This is because they don't have charity. They get stuck in the external things and never actually get to what the faith is about. For that reason, a lack of charity, they make fools of themselves by mocking what they don't understand.
And that is why it is an easy thing for me to be so bold and sure of what I proclaim, with utmost confidence. I know my God. The enemies of God do not know my God. They can't, and the reasons why are prophesied of in scripture.
And the surest proof of this is that compared to most, I speak very plainly about the mysteries, and people still fight God. This validates why it is Christianity teaches through allegory and parable. Why it takes the form that it does, and why it looks so strange to outsiders.
And The Orthodox Church is the true church. We know what we believe, we hold the mysteries in reverence, and The Spirit of Truth is with our church. It is the very church founded by Jesus and the apostles, and the gates of hell will not overcome it.
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@Outplayz
Every story in the bible is allegorical.
But it would be wrong of me to say they don't also account real events. It is impossible to answer that question, and it isn't really even that important.
And I am telling you truthfully that nitpicking the bible is the wrong path of questioning to take, because there is an innate presumption about the bible in these questionings.
That is why I told you it is better to ask instead what the bible is used for.
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@Ramshutu
No really, it is a very small segment of the Earth's population even today that subscribes to this nonsense you are saying.
I don't need to prove anything, since time immemorial it has always been this way. And what? Only now in tbe most decadent countries is it any different?
Yeah, I am not making extraordinary claims at all.
In fact, it is for biological and social reasons that there is a right way of doing things and it is not arbitrary.
You take what I am saying as a concession, because as I said, you are simply being arrogant.
There is nothing backwards about what I am saying.
There is something backwards about you claiming that a very recent development, which by the way is not the majority view around the world anyway, is somehow not perverse.
If you want to view your wife or partner as some thankless baby factory, who’s sole job it is to procreate and then take care of the children, and if you want to give your children the male role model of weak, selfish human being who views himself above women
Why do you even associate this type of thinking with what I am saying?
You have a very perverse outlook on things. You only prove my point that you have a low opinion of a mother's place in the home.
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@Outplayz
You believe you are something you are not. Your false identity reduces you to the level of a dog. I am telling you that this isn't who you really are, and you are better than that.
Instead of being curious, you dismiss it and double down on your false sense of identity. Well, funny how I tell you that you are better than what you think and you are, and you take that as not loving yourself.
No, you don't really understand. And you won't, because younare dismissive.
Yet, here I am, ready to answer questions. It would be easier if you didn't presume to know anything.
And I will answer to the best of my ability.
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@Ramshutu
If you want to be a stay at home dad, go for it. And do it with all faith.
After all, it's 2019. Men can be women, women can be men, and I can be a pangendered giraffe on fullthrottle.
And when this mountain of bullshit and virtual reality falls apart, you'll see that there are biological AND social reasons for why the peculiar time that we live in is not a reflection of what is normal or even healthy.
But believe what you want to believe. After all, it's all arbitrary. I am not going to convince you otherwise. I certainly wouldn't limit someone's choice to live the way they want to live.
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@3RU7AL
God is responsible for giving you free will as well, which does make you responsible for your actions.
You have the choice to choose good or evil. And this in no way compromises God's sovereignty.
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Apparently, going out to make bread for the family is not loving your kids.
Apparently, being steward of the home is not an honorable position for a woman to have, even though despite Ramshutu's bogus claims to the contrary, has always been the norm.
A few isolated examples of the contrary does not change this. Biology dictates these roles quite naturally. Women give birth to children and nurse them. Men are stronger than women. They toil. Not to undermine the toil that a mother does at the home!
And really, why take that honor away from women?
Envy on both sides. That is what it looks like.
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@WisdomofAges
If you have a question about Orthodoxy, I will happily answer to the best of my ability.
Please, one question at a time.
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@3RU7AL
Why, because you can't wrap your head around synergy?
If God is the cause of these bad things, he is to be invoked not blasphemed!
Yet, God exists and you have been given free will. You blaming God for your actions will not be a valid excuse.
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@Ramshutu
You take it as a concession because you are arrogant.
And no one said anything about dad not loving their kids except you, presumably because you're an asshole.
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@3RU7AL
In other words, you aren't responsible for your own actions, correct?
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@TwoMan
The universe is so full of order that we can't even co prehend it. What we can't comprehend is chaos(chaos is a mathematical term even for that which we can't make sense of).
But the order is apparent. And that order in itself is evidence for the existence of Ultimate Reality.
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@3RU7AL
Those who do not have God are morally blind, because there is no morality apart from God. Without God, you are simply groping in the dark. You don't know what makes something moral, you are simply going by your reasoning or even your gut. That isn't to say you can't be moral, just that you don't really know what morality is!
And I would like to point out that this judicial type of thinking is very typical of western theology, but very foreign to how Orthodox view things.
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@Ramshutu
The justification is that this is how it has beem throughout all of history. It is what nature dictates.
Your justification for your opinion is that it doesn't match your personal sense of aesthetics.
You are actually the one with the arbitrary viewpoint, not me.
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@3RU7AL
3RU7AL v.s. God
That ought to be an interesting court case.
This is a really perverse line of reasoning. So when something happens that you don't like is blaming God going to be your go to? No, I imagine you would simply reject God all together. Reality isn't the way I want it to be, so I'm going to blame it, deny it, or replace it with something else!
How arbitrary.
This type of attitude will only lead to mental illness, not healing.
That ought to be an interesting court case.
This is a really perverse line of reasoning. So when something happens that you don't like is blaming God going to be your go to? No, I imagine you would simply reject God all together. Reality isn't the way I want it to be, so I'm going to blame it, deny it, or replace it with something else!
How arbitrary.
This type of attitude will only lead to mental illness, not healing.
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Oddly enough, no one ever accuses anyone of hating men for saying they have a role.
What is all this rooted in?
The low opinion these feminist idiots have of being a mother. Shame on all of you, you are the real woman haters.
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@Ramshutu
Look at the armchair psychoanalyst go.
You must be having a blast constructing this image of me in your head. Funny how the multitude of your assumptions manages to undermine your accusations of me.
Go on, make me some kind of strawman characterization of what I must be to hold the opinions that I do.
Forget about nature, we live in 2019. Anything goes! Be what you want to be!
And when your perverse society collapses in on itself, you know who is going to be better off? The ones who didn't try to swap the roles of men and women. When shit hits the fan, you delusional idealists are going to remember why the natural order of things is not to be messed with.
If not, don't be surprised if the barbarians snatch your wife for being all out in the open doing what their husband should have been doing for them.
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@WisdomofAges
Once again, I must ask you... do you ever say anything that isn't just mindless rhetoric?
Better yet, do you have a question about Orthodoxy?
Of course you don't. The entire purpose of you being here is to be a lousy rhetorist.
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@Polytheist-Witch
There is a difference between having a job and having a career.
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"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry."
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@Polytheist-Witch
I would not call your husband a bad father for working to support his family, and spending time with his kids.
Duh
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@Polytheist-Witch
I actually love women, which is why I want every little girl to be raised by their mother and father and to have a good strong mother as a role model.
It takes real strength to be a good mother. It is a full time job, and there is nothing shameful about it.
A stay at home father? Is a laughing stock and a disgrace. All men know it. Hell, most women know it.
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There was a time when men were expected to not be bitches. I guess those days are long gone.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Says the witch.
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@Ramshutu
19th century?
Try nearly all of human history.
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@Polytheist-Witch
For all you or anyone know around here, I'm a woman.
I wonder what you would accuse me of being if I thought this way and you knew I was a woman?
I am sure you would find some other names to call me.
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@Ramshutu
You are actually arguing that women should have careers and that fathers should stay at home with their kids.
Ok, yeah, maybe with the right hormone treatment fathers can even breastfeed their kids.
If you want to advocate the emasculation position, I won't stop you. But you are wrong about several of your assumptions as to what I believe.
I won't bother addressing them though, because the real point here is that you have no dignity.
Ok, yeah, maybe with the right hormone treatment fathers can even breastfeed their kids.
If you want to advocate the emasculation position, I won't stop you. But you are wrong about several of your assumptions as to what I believe.
I won't bother addressing them though, because the real point here is that you have no dignity.
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@Outplayz
You openly admit to placing your perversions as an idol before the truth and that you love your darkness.
You don't reject me, you reject God.
Giving me a chance has nothing to do with it.
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@Polytheist-Witch
the universe has a spirit like any living thing. That is the creative force that brought life into being.
Oh, you mean The Holy Spirit, that giver of life? The breathe of God that enlivens all creation?
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@Polytheist-Witch
Why, because I'm telling the truth and you want to hear something that justifies your perverted viewpoint?
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@Deb-8-a-bull
As I said, excommunication is a way the church disciplines those who are in the church for being unrepentant in their sin. An example would be living with someone of the opposite sex and having intimate relations with them outside of marriage and refusing to accept that this is wrong. They would be excommunicated until they repent.
What does that mean? It means they are not allowed to take part in the eucharist. That is all that means.
Disgusted doesn't know what he is asking, he is just trying to stir up strife by arguing for something he doesn't even believe in or understand.
But I say Rome doesn't represent the wntire Church because there was a time they were Orthodox, and that is the context of that comment. They did not represent the entire church. Never have. They are no longer Orthodox, and have not been for a while. Since the schism they have only strayed further and further from the faith. As this is the case they don't represent the church at all.
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@3RU7AL
Logic doesn't overrule reality.
The reality is, God has granted us freewill, the ability to choose between good and evil. That doesn't mean that these are equally valid choices. We can choose to be wrong, and that isn't really in our best interests.
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@Ramshutu
Being a good mother certainly is a full time job. I don't see what is so controversial about this. A mother should be focused on her kids, not a career that will undoubtedly conflict with this.
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@disgusted
Rome does not represent the entire church. And really, both declared anathema against the other.
Roman Catholicism is a heresy. The Orthodox Church is faithful to Church Tradition.
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@Ramshutu
I don't see you making an effort to clarify.
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@3RU7AL
So basically, you are arbitrarily passing judgement on God, the only real righteous judge, because we don't all live in candyland.
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@Ramshutu
If you don't mind your kids picking up really bad habits at daycare, fine.
That isn't raising your kids.
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@keithprosser
That is because you want to believe in anything other than the truth.
Which is what we recognize as our God. You want it to be anything else because you can't reconcile what you see on the surface with what I am saying!
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@disgusted
There were 5 churches.
Rome was 1 of them.
Common sense time, who is the schismatic?
You are assuming the supremacy of the Roman Bishop, which was never accepted by the rest of the church. This is the defining characteristic of Roman Catholicism. That all authority is concentrated into the hands of the Bishop of Rome.
The Orthodox Church does not have 1 Bishop over the whole church, in fact, all bishops are considered equals, the main differences being administrative and logistical in nature.
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@keithprosser
Sounds like a historical anomaly due translational errors.
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@disgusted
When I studied Church history independently, what I found overwhelmingly ruled in favor of Orthodoxy.
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As it is written in Paul's second epistle to Timothy...
“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”
Or to translate...
To lead people to The Truth, and to help guide them into proper relationship to it.
The Truth is God. The proper relationship is to love God with everything. We do this by purifying the heart.
And that is the point of not only scripture, but everything the church does.
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@disgusted
Actually, the Patriarch of Constantinople was excommunicated, not the church.
And the rest of the church responded by accepting Rome's schism from the church.
Because they departed from Orthodoxy, and the proof of this is easily demonstrated in every single thing that they did after the schism.
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@Outplayz
Well, because you are such a know-it-all, you won't learn anything.
Isn't that how it always is?
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