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@Reece
No, it isn't a claim.
It is a definition.
And that is what I mean when I say God. My God certainly exists.
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@Reece
The Ultimate Reality is God.
This God certainly exists.
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@Outplayz
It is really a shameful thing to be controlled or defined by one's lusts or passions. We would not say this is who you really are. This would say this is a false identity. An identity that cheapens who you actually are.
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@Swagnarok
The church certainly does not condone this sort of thing.
I actually know a surviver of this war. Interesting guy. Speaks like 4 languages. Crazier than a shithouse rat.
But you blaming this on Orthodoxy makes very little sense.
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@Outplayz
There is a love even greater in paradise. A type of love that is so much greater than the eros you speak of, you would not miss it.
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@Stronn
Well, we are talking about The Trinity now.
3 Hypostases, Homoousios
The Word is The Most Perfect Image of God. The Truth. It is The Son in The Trinity.
We know The Father by The Holy Spirit which proceeds from The Father through The Son begotten of The Father.
The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth.
1 God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The Supreme Being is God. The Ultimate Reality.
Now if you can understand what I am saying, and see how it is true, that is very good! If not, I don't think me explaining it any more would help.
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@Outplayz
Yes to all of the above.
Except no god does these things. It is God who does these things.
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@Outplayz
God doesn't condemn anyone. People condemn themselves by rejecting God. And in that, there is a resurrection of the dead. Both just and just. Rest and paradise for the unjust, and torment for the unjust."those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!"~Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises
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@Outplayz
This world is not going to change.
As Jesus even said, "My Kingdom is not of this world."
The church teaches that God alone is infallible.
God doesn't condemn anyone. People condemn themselves by rejecting God. And in that, there is a resurrection of the dead. Both just and just. Rest and paradise for the unjust, and torment for the unjust.
"those who find themselves in hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo no greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God . . . But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!"
~Saint Isaac of Syria, Mystic Treatises
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@Polytheist-Witch
If I cared to begin with, I wouldn't be here.
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@Outplayz
If you have questions about Orthodoxy, I will be happy to answer them to the best of my ability.
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@3RU7AL
If you are an epistemological nihilist, this is an admission that knowledge is meaningless.
Vanity even.
Follows naturally.
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@janesix
If you aren't going to believe me, why ask?
Rest in your solipsism if that is what you want.
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@janesix
My humility or lack thereof will not be an excuse acceptable before God when you are before the great judgment seat.
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@janesix
Purify the heart.
Abandon everything. Sell all that you have, give it away. Humble yourself. Be nothing. Love God with all of your heart, soul, mind, and strength. The opposite of love is selfishness. Don't love to gain, love God because God of who God Is.
Everything will be added to you.
Abide in these.
Faith. Hope. Charity.
Be honest. Examine yourself. What motivates you? What controls you? What gets in the way of The Truth? Even you. Kill yourself. Die to the world. The only worthwhile is God.
If God isn't that important to you, you have accepted your bribes. You have chosen darkness rather than light. Don't blame God. You have been given freewill. You have made your choice. You have put your trust in what perishes. You will perish with it. Put your trust in The Immortal One. You will live forever with it. Abide in The Truth.
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@3RU7AL
This fetish for explanations and understandings will only get in the way of what is really important.
Being that you seem to be hinting that you are an epistemological nihilist, it should even be plain to you that this approach is vanity.
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@janesix
You don't really want the truth.
So believe what you want to believe.
I am secure. I don't need your validation.
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@janesix
You are smoking cigarettes.
How do you quit?
Stop smoking them.
It really is that simple. So it is with loving The Truth.
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@3RU7AL
The Truth is either known or unknown. Knowable or unknowable.
But you know that there is Truth. Love The Truth more than anything. You do this through abiding in The Truth, discarding that which tempts you from it.
The Truth is God. Place no idol before God.
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@janesix
Abide in The Truth.
Abandon that which pulls you away from it.
Put no idol before God.
The Truth is God.
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@crossed
The Truth is God.
Don't be fooled that you need to prove God any more than you need to prove there is truth.
Think about how ridiculous this sounds..
"Prove to me that it is true that there is truth!"
That is exactly what the God denier is demanding when they ask you to prove God.
Keep learning. If there is any one thing you can be absolutely secure about, it is that God exists. The enemy will use every trickery and lie to convince you otherwise. It is never a shame to say, "I don't know" or to admit you are wrong. It is a good thing to learn. In 10 years, you will see things differently. 10 years from that, you will see things differently. Hold fast to God, there is nothing more sure. Remember, The Truth is God. We all know that The Truth exists. To even doubt this is insanity.
May God be your guide.
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@janesix
Grasping with the intelllect is less important than seeing clearly.
Open your eyes. Unplug the ears.
Purify the heart.
Same thing I have always been saying.
A defiled heart is going to see differently than a pure heart. A defiled heart is going to interpret the same knowledge differently than a pure heart.
More important than facts and information is a pure heart.
And even if you were a scientist, purifying the heart would only serve to make you a better scientist.
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@janesix
Words.
You don't have to be agnostic about that.
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@3RU7AL
See, you have explainesd these things, but you are wrong.
I know we have been over this before, and I hate to see you backtrack.
The Truth has very little to do with knowledge. The Truth is not contingent on knowledge.
Before electricity was discovered and known, it certainly existed.
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@janesix
You know what they say(don't ask who they are).
If you fall down, get back up.
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@janesix
Knowledge of truth is not the end of things.
In fact, such a goal will only frustrate you. The west likes to approach the truth intellectually. Instead, they should be cleaning their microscope.
Clean your microscope. Every observation you make is throwed off by the smudged lense.
And this is really the discipline. A life of polishing the lense.
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@3RU7AL
It is easy to say atheists make up truth because if you are an epistemological nihilist who equates knowledge with truth.. it means you don't believe in truth. As that is the case, any assertion of truth is made up by the atheist.
So an atheist really shouldn't be shocked at accusations like this, because technically they have adopted an indefensible and irrational worldview.
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@3RU7AL
Something does not have to be verifiable to be reality.
Something has to be verifiable to be knowledge.
There is a difference between knowledge and truth. Facts and reality.
If you are epistemological nihilist, by that standard, nothing is fact. If you make truth contingent on knowledge with an attitude of epistemological nihilism, nothing is reality.
And sure enough, that is true atheism. Nihilism. The denial of reality itself.
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Or reality.
From the same dictionary.
the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
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@janesix
Knowledge is not the truth.
You do know what the truth is though. How can you not believe? If you don't at the very least believe in truth, how can you believe in anything?
It should be easier to believe in truth than even your own existence, after all, if there is no truth, you would not exist. There is no existence without truth.
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@janesix
You don't know the truth.
Does that mean you don't believe the truth?
Knowledge should not be an idol before the truth.
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@3RU7AL
Epistemological nihilism is the end of it all!
And it certainly is if knowledge is taken as an idol before The Truth.
Loving The Truth isn't about knowledge. It is about living The Truth. So how do you abide in The Truth?
That is what the Orthodox discipline is and has always been about.
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@WisdomofAges
No one is condemning you. You have such a hatred for Christians that you project every evil you have towards them on them.
Basically, the way you say Christians are is not really different from how you yourself are. It is pretty plain to see.
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It is really crippling to only commit based on 100% certainty. Getting sucked into an epistemological black hole isn't much different than depression in mentality. It is really self defeating.
If you can't at least believe that there is truth, where is there to go?
It might not be apparent to those who suspend their belief in truth because they don't know it, but this is actually a pretty haughty position to take. I don't believe in truth because I don't know it!
How can you ever come to know truth if you don't believe in it?
At some point, you really do have to have faith. Faith is a dirty word to those qho are in denial of their own faith, but it is really not a bad thing. In mant ways it is a good thing. Can faith be a bad thing? Certainly, but faith in itself is not bad.
Faith in the truth is a good thing. At the very least, believe it exists. If you can do this, that faith the size of a mustard seed will reveal so much. If you love the truth, there is clearly a right way to do this. Be sincere. Be honest. Strive for purity of heart. Polish the nous clean.
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@EtrnlVw
@Outplayz
New Age Jesus from etrnlvw, who isn't a Christian...
Some of the heretical beliefs he has professed...
1. God doesn't know the future, only what is currently happening.
2. Jesus was a created being.
3. It doesn't matter what is written in the New Testament, because those that followed Jesus didn't get it.
Outplayz invented his own religion, thinks he is god, and seems to believe whatever he thinks up that sounds aesthetically pleasing.
Neither of you are Christians.
And etrnlvw, Jesus didn't hate priests and religious establishments. You can't tell me that the one who read scriptures in the synagogue, picked out the 12 Apostles, sent out the 70, etc. Hated religion!
What he hated were religious hypocrites like yourself who put on a show of spirituality on the outside while inwardly being ravenous wolves. Look at you, who are quick to side with devil worshippers in order to attack the true church, which is certainly a threat to your spiritual egotism!
You should certainly repent, because your words are not the words of an enlightened man who has obtained disspassion and humility, but the words of someone who embraces lawlessness. And like most anarchists, this is really a means to elevate yourself.
But above all, you don't really understand Orthodoxy or what we teach. We are not Roman Catholics. Our priests do not lord themselves over anyone. They do not burden and guilt people because of their sins. They are there to teach people at all steps in their walk. They do a lot of work. And as you show, it is thankless work. They are very busy, not only in conducting liturgies, which are long and ordered, but in constantly hearing other people's problems and having to suffer through people's confessions. They have to be a shoulder to cry on. They have to tell the truth. They have to be examples themselves. It is very hard work, and can be taxing on their families. Because yes, many priests are married.
During liturgy, there are certain vestments that the priests wear at certain times. The purpose of these vestments is not to call attention to the priest, but to call attention away from the priest and to minimize them personally. They are performing a function. And like a doctor who wears a white coat or a policemen who wears a badge, they have a uniform. When they are not performing their obligations at the altar, which not everyone can or should do, they are dressed in a very simple manner. Some do have pectoral crosses, which are given to them by the bishop to acknowledge faithful service. And being a priest is A SERVICE. I have nothing but respect for all good priests. I am thankful for the archpriest at my parish, he is a very humble man who is wise and full of love. I consider him not only a priest, but a friend.
Now seeings as neither of you really understand Orthodoxy, and cannot really distinguish it from Latin Papalism, this is the pllace to ask questions. I will do my best to answer them. I wish the best for both of you, and sincerely hope for your salvation. I am not either of your enemies. So I would appreciate it if you did not hold it against me for believing what I do. Over 66.5 million Orthodox Christians have been killed last century by those who hate us for our beliefs. But we hate no one, and we do not persecute anyone. We are peaceful law abiding Christians who are called to love all. Loving people doesn't mean lying to people so they can feel included in something they have no part in. We take corruption of the church seriously, and will not compromise our faith in order that idolators feel secure.
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@Tradesecret
The wording was changed - an addition was made - and it was an ecumenical council. It was just that some - did not attend. They themselves chose not to attend - for other reasons. And even after that - there was another council where agreement was reached even in accord with the new wording - the problem was at that stage the East decided to renege.
If they did not attend, it wasn't an ecumenical council. Rome has this idea that whatever the Pope signs is an ecumenical council. There is a reason why they aren't Orthodox!
The council that the "east decided to renege" on, I am assuming you are talking about the Councils that were held during the invasion of the Ottomans. The one where the entire church allegedly agreed to submit to the Pope as supreme pontiff and effectively become Roman Catholic? Who attended this council?
Obviously, The Orthodox Church could not see this council as legitimate. And you know what, how could we? The Crusaders, on their way to fighting the Muslims robbed our churches and killed our people. They deposed our bishops and tried to replace them with Latin ones.
They are not Orthodox for a reason!
The pope was starting to rise in the church -but his authority was still very much at a lesser level than you are opining about.
There is a historical pattern going back to the earliest days of the church where the Bishop of Rome would try to rule on things outside of his jurisdiction, and being rebuked by the rest of the church. In fact, if you could pinpoint the cause of the schism on any one thing, it is the idea that the Bishop of Rome was bishop over the entire church.
Now what makes more sense.. That 1 Patriarch broke away from 5 or that the 4 left the 5?
The New Testament, I might add, is written in Greek, not Latin.
These are just common sense observations.
It simply is incorrect to state that the East somehow did not have an opportunity to join the discussions. I have no doubt that there may be some people within the Orthodox church who are saved by grace through faith. Nevertheless, there are many, like there are in the RCC, who rely only upon their denominational tag as a means of salvation. the problem is - denominations are not the means to salvation - Jesus is. It is not tradition, it is not even the church, it is not good works, it is grace through faith in Jesus Christ by which any can be saved. Baptism will not save you - not will taking communion.
Orthodoxy does not teach that being part of the church, partaking of the eucharist, or baptism will save you.
So you clearly don't know what we believe.
We do not believe in "greasy grace" which is the idea that you can just root for team Jesus and be saved. If you have faith, you will have works. Faith without works is dead.
Sin is the problem and Jesus alone has dealt with sin by his death and resurrection. We trust in him for our life and our life will reflect what he has done for us in the way we live.
And so if you reflect this in the way you live, there are works with your faith.
Now, you being a protestant should understand that there is something seriously wrong with The Roman Church. You are right, there is something wrong! That is why by the time the protestants revolted against them, they hadn't been Orthodox for centuries!
And it is my hope that you and others come back home to Orthodoxy.
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@Tradesecret
Protestantism is not defined by schisms. I have already addressed this above. Protestants protested against the authority of Rome and for the authority of the Bible. There is basically one Reformed church - albeit containing numerous denomination - from the episcopal, Lutheran, and Presbyterians groups. Baptists are not traditionally protestant - but rather dissenters.
One reformed church? Authority of the bible? That is a pretty bold claim. Presbytarians? They are Calvanists! How obnoxious that must be to a Methodist. And I know it is, because I am good friends with a Methodist pastor. We Orthodox do have that in common. On that note, I know this one Methodist church where they refer to God as "mother" during service and the clergy are all openly homosexual. Wild, eh? Lutherans? Are you talking about the Martin Luther who added words to his translation of the bible to justify his salvation by grace alone theology? Are you talking about the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America(the largest by the way) that conducts marriages between same sex couples within its walls?
I know a man who was a Lutheran pastor for over 20 years. He is an Orthodox now. It happened, like many of the other former pastors at my parish, after they got some education. It happened to me too! One of our deacons was an Episcopalian pastor for just as long.
But no, there is no one reformed church. That is a claim that I don't believe can be backed up. And even now, there are new denominations popping up. A relatively new denomination has sprang up in the last couple of decades in my city.. They have churches all over town. I presume this is because they can't get along with the established churches.
It was the Orthodox church which was left the fold, not the West.
Yet, the council of Ephesus in 431 (3rd ecumenical council) clearly ruled that anyone who alters the creed will be anathemized, and on that...
This is the same as good works. If people can be saved by good works, then Jesus death and resurrection is meaningless.
Pelagianism was also recognized as a heresy at this same ecumenical council
Apostolic succession in the sense of "laying on of hands from the beginning" is a myth and a superstition. The only real sense of apostolic succession is in relation to the teaching of the Apostle's creed. Otherwise, Jesus' death on the cross gets lost in the hands of the traditionalists.
I don't know what you think I'm saying, but laying on of hands is something you see an awful lot in scripture, even in the context of appointing someone to an office. It happens in Acts when the Apostles appoints deacons. It happens when Barnabus and Paul were sent to be missionaries from Antioch. These are all just examples from the book of acts. If tradition was bad in itself, why does Paul write in his second letter to the Thessalonians to hold to the traditions?
The Orthodox Church has kept to Holy Tradition as other "churches" compromise to the prevailing culture.
If apostolic succession is simply the laying on of hands, then why bother with Jesus dying? Why did he not just lay hands on his apostles - and then get them to do the same? Why would he need to go to the cross?
Because simply touching someone with your hands doesn't do anything on its own, and no one is claiming this.
If you ask me, it is the so called orthodox church which is incomplete. Incomplete in relation to the Trinity. Incomplete in relation to salvation. Incomplete in relation to Jesus. Incomplete in relation to church history.
This is a pretty bold claim considering we actually remember what went on during the so called "dark ages", keep the writings of the church fathers, remember the saints, hold to the ancient monastic tradition, and take our religious education very seriously.
You really have nothing to back this up, it is the type of opinion that can only come from someone who is wholly unfamiliar with Orthodoxy. Well, that is why I am here. To educate.
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@Ramshutu
The Truth is what I acknowledge as God.
I don't need to substantiate this.
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@Stronn
The Word is God's Word.
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@3RU7AL
Creation doesn't share the essence of God.
Creation is not The Ultimate Reality.
Yet...
Reality has no reality to it if The Ultimate Reality isn't in it to give it reality.
So God is certainly omnipresent. It can really be no other way.
Creation can be likened to the flesh of The Word of God, enlivened by The Holy Spirit.
But The Word of God itself is not creation, neither is The Holy Spirit. They are even really the same being. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
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@Ramshutu
Please, there is nothing in common with someone such as myself who accepts The Truth alone as God and this witch who bows down to vain imaginings and creations of men.
In fact, the pagan is closer to the atheist than the monotheist, because while the atheist is ignorant of or in denial of the idols they prefer to the truth, the pagan takes pride in their perversity.
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@Outplayz
I'm curious then, what does it teach about believing? Can you be someone like me that is agnostic towards if Jesus was real or not?
Well, if you don't believe, we wouldn't baptize you. You can always talk to a priest. Maybe even go out for lunch or coffee. Talk about these things.
That actually makes sense if these other places are not like the west countries. In places where there isn't a strong lean towards science and technology, i can see the 'original' being more popular. But somewhere like America, it would make sense if the Jordan Petterson way of looking at Christianity isn't the most popular. All though, his way isn't the most popular currently, i predict a very metphory way of looking at it will be the one that gains in popularity as time goes on.
It has very little to do with science and technology. Christianity is not anti-science. It is not that popular in America because all the churches in America are descended from Roman Catholicism and the churches that splintered of from them.
Roman Catholicism broke away from Orthodoxy over a thousand years ago, and have done a fine job giving Christianity a bad name in the west.
But in Orthodoxy, there is always an allegory or parable that gives a deeper meaning to everything.
The great mystery behind the whole thing? Our religion is Truth worship. That is the hardest thing to get if you are distracted by appearances and think it is really about rituals and such. Everything is done the way it is done for a reason. It is all a lot deeper than it looks on the surface.
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@Polytheist-Witch
You aren't saying otherwise.
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@3RU7AL
I am not really arguing with you at this point, I just thought you might be interested to know that what you are saying might not be too far from what we understand in Orthodoxy.
So I am giving you a baseline to look more into it.
Uncreated Energies and such.
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@Polytheist-Witch
You said...
".You are an atheists to all gods but one, therefore you are a bigot. "
And as you also call atheists bigots, my conclusion is really quite intuitive.
You are pretty much saying that anyone who doesn't believe as you do is a bigot.
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