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@3RU7AL
You might find this interesting as an introduction.
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@keithprosser
Lets assume that God is not conscious. Not because it is true or untrue but for sake of this point.
God is still worth worshipping because it is always in our best interest to abide in the truth.
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@Polytheist-Witch
In otherwords, anyone who isn't a polytheist is a bigot because they don't believe in your gods.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Another cop out.
Care to try again?
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@janesix
I know what I believe. You don't. That is why you say such things.
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@Polytheist-Witch
What makes me a bigot?
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@janesix
That is your accusation.
It sounds to me like a reflection of your insecurity.
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@Polytheist-Witch
So you admit to lacking charity?
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@3RU7AL
I understand that is how you make sense of it, yes.
But if all of creation was wiped out, a piece of God certainly would not be missing.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Sounds like another cop out.
Care to try again?
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@janesix
What is there to be open minded about?
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@Polytheist-Witch
I have noticed that you never defend or explain your beliefs, you simply call people names.
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@janesix
Despite your accusation, I feel pretty secure.
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@janesix
Bunch of bullshit.
The truth is better.
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@janesix
I don't need to know the truth in its entirety to know the truth exists. I can see enough concerning the truth to know that if you love it, there is a proper way to conduct your relationship with it.
It is not so arbitrary.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Even you know deep down that your gods aren't real, and are merely embraced as an aesthetic decision. Your faith is not grounded in the truth at all.
And you certainly have the right to be arbitrary about the divine, but it isn't in your best interests. The truth is better.
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@3RU7AL
It is more of an argument that everything comes from God. All the information in the universe doesn't equal God.
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@janesix
There is nothing about God's essence being incomprehensible that opposes Christianity. We openly believe this.
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Definition of "bigot" courtesy Merriam-webster...
"a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance"
Don't see it.
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@janesix
The essence of God, The Ultimate Reality, is acknowledged by the church to be incomprehensible.
If we openly believe this, how can your assertion of God's incomprehensible essence undermine our faith?
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@Polytheist-Witch
It sounds to me like you are actually the bigot, and you are projecting on to me.
Though you hate me without a cause, I do not hate you. In fact, I love you. That is why I pray you are one day freed from these demons you call gods, and come to know The One True God.
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@Polytheist-Witch
You seem to hate me a great deal more than I hate you.
I don't hate you at all.
I am not a bigot for telling you the truth.
It is not hard to get along with everyone. Tell them what they want to hear. Don't tell them what they don't want to hear. That is why satanists don't give unsolicited opinions. It's because they love themselves, not others.
The opposite of love is not hate, it is selfishness.
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@janesix
The Ultimate Reality IS the God Christianity acknowledges.
You don't know that because you don't really know Christianity. I speak with knowledge, I am not posturing.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I am not a bigot because I warn you that your pagan delusions and false gods will not save you.
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@janesix
Because when I say "God", superstitious people think bearded man in the cloud.
So I must make it very clear that I am talking about The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
This serves dual purposes. Firstly, it educates those who are open to being taught something. Secondly, it makes it very clear that those who argue against my God are fools, and that it isn't written in vain, "Only a fool says in their heart there is no God."
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@Polytheist-Witch
Well, you aren't correcting me or clarifying. You are simply calling me names.
I am feeling very secure right now.
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@janesix
The Ultimate Reality does exist independent of religion.
And that is what I call God in my religion.
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@Polytheist-Witch
You think I am calling some created thing The Ultimate Reality. You think this because you are a pagan, and that is what you do.
I am saying that The Ultimate Reality is what I call God. There is a difference.
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@3RU7AL
I have never made that argument, nor would I.
I know God exists because The Ultimate Reality exists, and there is no other alternative that can even be entertained.
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@janesix
The Ultimate Reality exists independent of religion. The words "ultimate" and "reality" have meanings, so when these words are put together they have a meaning. What these words mean when put together describes something that necessarily exists.
The Ultimate Reality.
It is reality as it truly is.
Anybody who denies the existence of reality as it truly is... well... they are either a liar or crazy.
So when I say my God is The Ultimate Reality, I am describing the only being that can possibly be God. If God isn't this, it is not really God, because there is nothing greater than The Ultimate Reality. There is nothing that has more authority than The Ultimate Reality. There is nothing that could exist independent of The Ultimate Reality.
So when people deny this, they are making fools of themselves.
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@janesix
I would go so far as to say the words "ultimate reality" mean something independent of religion.
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@disgusted
Where do you even get 2000 years from "The Ultimate Reality"?
You must think these are meaningless words. Or really, you attach a meaning that isn't there.
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@keithprosser
It doesn't resemble your concept of a god.
In fact, there is nothing like it.
It is what it is.
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@3RU7AL
I am neither arguing on the basis of age or popularity.
You of course understand that these would be fallacious arguments.
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@keithprosser
There are no gods, but gods in name only. However...
The Ultimate Reality exists.
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@Stronn
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
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@Stronn
Why do you respond to me with questions I already answered?
Do you just think ignoring what I said and plowing through adds legitimacy to the nonpoint that you are making?
What I said stands on its own. Maybe you are reading too much into it. I never said, "Aha!"
Who said anything about being correct?
But I know my faith, and I know it is correct. You can't know my faith is correct, because if I tell you plainly what my faith is, you will in your mind make it something else.
And that is part of the vetting process for Orthodoxy, why it takes the form it does. If you don't have charity, you'll never get past the images.
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@3RU7AL
What does zoroastrianism have to do with Gilgamesh?
Or are you trying to point out that there are people who still practice a really old religion? Because if you are trying to do the later, no one disputes that people practice really old religions.
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@disgusted
Say "The Ultimate Reality exists".
You can't do it. You deflect this question by talking about me.
Because you are dishonest.
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@Outplayz
@Swagnarok
Pardon, ya'll. I responded to your questions but did not mark yous as receivers.
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1. Does not Luke 9:49-50 suggest that parties independent of the line of apostolic succession which are favorable to the gospel of Christ might still be a part of His church?
Being for us is not the same as being with us. ;)
2. If there was a pagan village in the middle of nowhere, and then a Bible translation in their language happened to wash up on the beach, and through it the whole village became Christian, but they were unaware of the existence of the Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church, and as a consequence never joined such, would they be eternally d*mned? If not, then it would appear that a church can exist outside of the line of apostolic succession, or am I wrong?
We Orthodox don't teach that anyone who is not a part of The Church is damned. We teach that God knows the hearts of all men. We also teach that God doesn't damn anyone, people choose to reject him. The universality of this is made more clear when you accept that The Truth is God. It is also made more clear when you have the eyes to see that some people truly have embraced arbitrariness, and genuinely have no love for The Truth. Yet, even in such cases where this seems apparent, we know that God is the righteous judge, not us. So we do not make judgment calls on who is or isn't "damned".
As The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, we don't really acknowledge any other church as being legitimate. That said, we really try to be charitable about it. We tend to place a great deal more emphasis on free will. As such, we are very averse to coercion. In the cases of churches which have not been identified as heretical, but claim to be Christian, we refer to them as heterodox. They are not Orthodox.
3. If apostolic succession is not necessary for salvation (even if desirable), then the only thing that really matters is correct doctrine and faithful practice, no?
I wouldn't put a limit on God's mercy. I know that God offers salvation to everyone, and that those who out of their own free will reject the truth and seperate themselves from God will be tormented for it, and they don't even have to wait until the next life to see that strong delusion naturally comes from a rejection of the truth.
It is universally better to go with God. And The Orthodox Church is God's church. These heterodox "churches" do not have the full religion, and I can say this as someone who might have been considered a protestant for a longer period of time than an Orthodox.
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@disgusted
The Ultimate Reality is not invented, and everybody knows this whether they can admit it or not.
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@disgusted
There is no "my" ultimate reality, there is only One Ultimate Reality.
Which you can't admit exists because you are a liar.
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That isn't really what we teach.So, a lot of people are damned to hell then?
If it is the first, i personally would say it's the best by being the original.. but i don't think it is. I'm pretty sure a lot has changed up bc that is what humans do... ruin / corrupt things. But if the argument is besides what i think of it, i would say the original by default should be the best obviously. But i do think being marketed as the original will also make it least popular among Christians.
Well, what brought me to Orthodoxy was studying church history, and really, Orthodoxy most closely lines up with what the early church writes.
It is the original church. Really The Church.
It isn't popular in America at this time. Other places it is more popular.
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@Stronn
God's word is The Truth.
It only seems whimsical and arbitrary if you have in your mind a god that isn't real.
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@disgusted
You just said ultimate reality exists in imagination.
That firmly establishes you as an idiot.
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