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@disgusted
You're an idiot, you prove yourself wrong.
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I can hardly blame people for doubting the existence of God. There are a lot of people preaching a god that just doesn't seem real!
It's pretty easy.
It's a shame. How can they know any better?
I try to be helpful.
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There can be no security in nihilism.
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@janesix
Even those who receive the crazy check need something to decorate time with.
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@Stronn
Because there is no church of Gilgamesh that stretches back to antiquity.
At best, maybe some neopagan nerds have fabricated a mock religion in recent times that they certainly wouldn't die for.
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@disgusted
It is the easiest way to expose your posturing and establish that you are simply an arrogant nihilist who has no ground to stand on.
Not to you of course. You lack the insight to learn anything. You're an idiot.
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@Outplayz
Okay, my bad. You're right. I wasn't being specific enough. You need to believe Jesus is lord and savior, died for our sins and surrendering to him and his ways. That's what makes you Christian right?
Well, even then, that doesn't really tell you much about Jesus. To some people, that might mean you are a Christian. To us Orthodox that means you could be accepted as a catechumen, go through classes, and be educated so that you actually know what all that means. Then, after you have been educated about what all that really means, you can be baptized if it is clear that you understand what you are saying you believe!
So for us Orthodox, it is a bit more complicated, and part of that has to do with the fact that we hold these things with reverence.
So Orthodoxy is the oldest?
Oh yeah, easily. It goes all the way back to the beginning.
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@linate
I am not familiar with Georgian Baptists.
This is the only forum I am on.
My faith is in The Truth, not miracles.
I personally do not find it hard to believe that there are real saints in other churches. However, I still would say that studying church history is a big part of what lead me to Orthodoxy. I did not become an Orthodox first. I do believe that The Orthodox Church has the best claim to being the visible church here on Earth. The evidence points to it. Besides that, the theology is really good.
There are a few examples of government meddling with the church. It didn't last. A lot of that meddling was in fact done in Russia. There are a few minor break offs, but they are simply being stubborn about what can historically be proven as an error and anomaly.
There are the so called "non-chalcedonian" churches, and from what I gather we are on pretty good terms and reconciliation seems to be an inevitable thing. The bishops and priests seem to believe that we really believe the same thing.
There is no division over here though. These "independent orthodox denominations" are likely making false claims of orthodoxy. I can't really speak about them. I have heard in my city there are some new age type churches that pretend to be orthodox, but are not really.
Apostolic succession is a real thing. If a church forms independent of that, they are not really with us!
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@3RU7AL
Yet Jesus left a church, and it exists even to this day.
The Orthodox Church
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@linate
what is your standard of unity? if the russian orthodox church excommunicated everyone else, who is to say where the true church is? and that goes for any of the districts.
Conformity to Church Tradition is a good measure. The Roman Catholic Church as an example has deviated quite a bit from Church Tradition.
If The Russian Orthodox Church excommunicated all the other churches, well... 1 patriarch against 8. They would clearly be the schismatics.
But that isn't the case. My Church is in communion with Russia, and we get along fine. They have a lot of really nice saints, Russia.
are non-orthodox services that try to be orthodox as the early church was, valid? why not?what makes those protestants not part of the true church?
It is a misguided thing to do. The Orthodox Church has not changed since the schism. Rome has. Why aren't they simply becoming Orthodox? The effort seems nice, but it would save them a lot of trouble if they rejoined with The Orthodox Church, which is something I would like to see. The Orthodox Church in America is still pretty tiny.
does it all boil down to apostolic succession?and if it does, that leads to my last post, which groups of the orthodox represent the true church when they start ex commnicating everyone from each other?
"When" is an awfully presumptuous thing to say.
The Orthodox Church doesn't really have a problem with schisms. Not really since Rome broke away from us. Since Rome broke away, they have had constant schisms. Protestantism is practically defined by its never ending schisms.
Orthodoxy is pretty stable, and even manages to remain intact after government meddling. When persecution and government meddling lets up, it returns to default. That is one of the good things about The Orthodox system. We aren't really seperate churches, we all share the same Church Tradition, and we are all One Body of Christ.
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@Tradesecret
It actually really does have a lot to do with the Pope exerting authority beyond his jurisdiction. There were several instances going back several hundred years of the rest of the church rebuking the Pope over this.
But the issue about the trinity and the creed was this... all of the churches agreed on the creed that we Orthodox use even to this day. The Romans altered the creed without an ecumenical council, a requirement to do such a thing. The change was done because of pressure from secular authorities in the west that the Pope had a hand in creating. The corruption of the creed originated in Spain in an attempt to combat Arianism. This corruption spread to a church that Charlemagne grew up in. He was the first to pressure the Pope into altering the creed. It didn't end up happening until later.
Scripture does say...
"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."
And the entire church agreed that the spirit proceeds from the father. The corruption didn't happen until later.
The Orthodox Church doesn't see the west as having an idolatrous position in regards to the bible, it sees it as having an idolatrous position in regards to the Pope!
As far as the protestants though, more that they lost a great deal in their schism from Rome and that they have an incomplete form of Christianity.
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@Outplayz
Well, anyone can say they believe in Jesus. That doesn't mean they know Jesus. The Arians, Muslims, and even the new agers will say they believe in Jesus.
But none of these are the Jesus that we believe.
How it is different depends on what you are comparing it to. Could you give me something to compare it to? You have to understand that there are thousands of churches under the protestant/evangelical/nondenominational umbrella that can all be very different. What sets Orthodoxy apart from all of those churches, which at the oldest are maybe 500 years old, is our church is 2000 years old at least.
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@disgusted
Say "The Ultimate Reality exists".
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@Polytheist-Witch
It is haughty of you to declare that your interpretation is what is written into the text. It certainly is not written in the text that Cain's raggedy sacrifice killed his relationship with God.
That said, it is also not what the church teaches, and the church has greater authority over these matters than you.
That said, it is also not what the church teaches, and the church has greater authority over these matters than you.
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@keithprosser
You of course, are interpreting the text in a way that is not actually conducive to how the text is used.
It also isn't really useful at all. The only thing you are doing is sowing doubt while mocking. That isn't really the proper way to go about scripture.
The bible is full of people doing wicked things. Many of the figures who are used by God are guilty of some terrible sins. Something can be learned from this alone.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Says you and not the church.
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All the pansy God deniers come out of the woodworks to debate their ideal opponent.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Loving God half heartedly is not really loving God. The opposite of Love is not hate, but selfishness.
And Cain's sacrifice did not kill his relationship with God. His heart was filled with envy, and his brother WAS killed. Murdered.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You will probably avoid this question but I will ask it anyway on the off chance that you won't because I am genuinely curious and would like to know more about this subject... Is that interpretation based on oral tradition your church attaches to the story, or additional scriptures adding to it? Either way, if that message isn't written in the book that I just read then the church is teaching from a modified version of the story compared to the one I happen to be reading
The story you are reading was never intended to be read apart from the church. In fact, none of the bible is. Despite what the sola scriptura crowd believes, it is very recent development that didn't occur until nearly 500 or so years ago with Martin Luther.
Without the church one can read the bible front to back 10 times and not get it. Worst case scenario, even use the bible to justify false doctrines andevil actions. The bible is inseparable from church tradition.
But we do have commentaries of scripture from the church fathers who make it clear that Cain's offering was considered less because he did not sacrifice with faith, he did not offer the best of what he had.
In the epistle to Hebrews, it is written...
"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."
The moral of the story is parallelled in later stories, parables of Jesus, and even the law of Moses! Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. No idol before God. There is nothing in this world that is worth putting before God.
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@Vader
We are a lonely breed out here, eh?
Church of Antioch here, but I'd go to a Greek Church.
We all Orthodox here, eh?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What Keith is saying about why Cain's offering wasn't accepted as well is more in line with what the church teaches.
He didn't bake his cookies with love.
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@Outplayz
What makes it different?
It is the same church founded by Jesus and the apostles with an unbroken continuity of existence.
So really, you never knew Christianity because what you learned of it was likely from those who are at least 2 steps broken off from it.
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@EtrnlVw
If you say so.
Next step I suppose for you would be to study church history.
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@disgusted
The excommunication was mutual.
Rome first.
Constantinople second.
The other 3 patriarchs sided with Constantinople.
Rome first.
Constantinople second.
The other 3 patriarchs sided with Constantinople.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Because when I say The Truth, I mean exactly what that means.
If it helps, uncapitalize it in your head. It is a name of God, so I will capitalize it.
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@disgusted
History rules in favor of Orthodoxy overwhelmingly.
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@EtrnlVw
You are ashamed to call yourself a Christian, have questioned the omniscience of God, called Jesus Christ a created being, and how many other things have you said?
Technically, you are the one who has adopted heretical position, and because you have a lot of pride, which is why you find authority to be obnoxious to begin with, you aren't likely to repent, but double down and pretend to be enlightened while hating the church.
It really hurts me to see you have such a negative attitude of the true church while knowing so little about it.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Because The Word of God IS Truth.
As it is written...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."
And....
"Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth"
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@keithprosser
That scripture is often taken out of context to justify the belief that a group of people calling themselves Christians can use the Lord's name in vain together while making arrogant demands from God and/or gossiping under the pretense of prayer while feeling sanctimonious about it.
That passage has more to do with church discipline than anything anti-church.
But I would not deny that we each have a personal relationship with God. The church is supposed to help people in this, so painting the church as some kind of power play couldn't be further from the truth. What power? Priests are slaves to their congregation, constantly being burdened with other people's problems. Besides that, their priestly work during liturgy I imagine can be repetitive and exhausting.
Bishops are selected from the monasteries. All Orthodox are called to be ascetics, but monks are real athletes at it!
But there will always be those who make evil accusations against the church. That is how it has always been. The world hates us without a cause, just as Jesus said.
And the world is working very hard to destroy the church. It isn't some ancient past I am talking about, there are people alive today who are witnesses to this very real genocidal attitude that is directed at us. It is still going on, even at this very hour.
As I pointed up there, I have have frequently mentioned 20 million martyrs in the last century. The figure according to that source may be closer to 66.5 million.
No one cares, in fact, it is pretty mainstream to encourage it through antichrist rhetoric.
And we don't even resist those who slaughter us.
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@keithprosser
Yes, even to this day there is some organizational structure!
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The words "god" and "God" mean two different things, and it is always a temptation for me to refuse to converse with those who refuse to acknowledge this!
When I say The Truth, I am refering to The Word of God, The Truth very specifically. This is in contrast with, "the truth is that the sun is out during the day" or "To say that the moon is not made of cheese is the truth."
It isn't that I mean. something different when I say The Truth. It is that I am very specifically referring to truth in the truest sense rather than simply a truth that is relatively true.
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God.
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@keithprosser
Yet, The Truth is not a story, and a story is not The Truth.
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@keithprosser
The Apostles selected people, and later that passed on to the bishops who were appointed by the apostles.
Justin Martyr accounts how church services were done in the early days...
The earliest Christians did go to the temple and synagogues though. James, the first bishop of Jersusalem went to the temple every day, and was even martyred there. Teaching at the synagogues is something that is recorded in Acts even.
Orthodox Liturgy today is not much different, perhaps a bit more refined because of the influence of John Chrysostom, than it was in the earliest days. Still very Jewish even. We do a lot of praying. A lot of scripture reading. We burn incense.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
I don't understand something. It looks ridiculous. It must be ridiculous.
They say this. My gut reaction is to disagree. They must be wrong.
In fact, without charity it is impossible to get past the surface level. Without humility it is impossible to get past the surface level.
After all, it takes charity to suspend judgement about something. It takes humility to say, "I don't get it" and ask for help.
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@keithprosser
The Truth is not a story.
And if you see The Truth at all, it is through The Most Perfect Image of Truth, by The Spirit of Truth.
If that is still obscure to you, know that it actually means something very profound that can be experienced and is real. To you it is not real, but you haven't realized it.
And you likely won't without the faith to get to that point.
We experience the uncreated God through the medium of creation. The Word of God is not creation, but the flesh it occupies is just as the flesh you occupy is creation.
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@Polytheist-Witch
You can't be a good witness if you aren't actually a witness, you know.
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@Polytheist-Witch
Historically, the Orthodox Church in America has been an immigrant church that has mostly kept to itself.
A few decades ago even, you would not have the type of written material available today in English. It is my hope that protestants in the US will start coming to Orthodoxy in droves.
Really, protestant pastors are becoming Orthodox in droves!
You have to start somewhere.
I feel the same way for the most part as the guy who ran the missionary school you speak of.
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@eventuality001
Orthodox Christianity does not believe in coercive methods to get people to convert. Emphasis is on freewill.
In fact, we look down on the missionary activity of some churches that bribe natives with things like food and supplies in order to gain converts.
Of course, we can hardly be blamed for not wanting unbelievers as our priests and bishops!
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@EtrnlVw
I can see how your narrative can be used as a justification for spiritual egotism and antinomianism.
It seems to me that you aren't being charitable towards The Church, which I read a saint once say that this is a big root of heresy and schism.
So not only are you rejecting the new testament, you are rejecting the whole church.
This is why I have never seen you as a Christian. You aren't really a believer. The standardless nondenominational church may allow you to commune with them, but we Orthodox would not see you as a believer.
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@keithprosser
I believe that the church has a pretty good idea of how it was organized even early on.
Even the first ecumenical council is depicted in The book of Acts chapter 15.
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@keithprosser
There is no reconciliation of a dilemma. There is One God. One object of worship. The One True God.
Even here in Genesis you see The Word and The Spirit.
"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."
Word and Spirit right there.
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
That breathe is also The Spirit.
You don't have any without the other.
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@EtrnlVw
Again, there was NEVER a business or organization founded by Jesus at any point in time and that is why this baloney falls flat on its face every single time, nor can you show me any example of that. The confession that Peter made was the only binding commitment and this had absolutely nothing to do with any institution. It is this acknowledgement (Peters confession) of the individual party that makes up this supposed church, the people.
You are at least right about one thing. The confession of Peter and what Jesus daid to him is understood to apply to all the bishops in the church, not just one person or the chair of that one person(as Romans like to say in order to justify The Pope being Bishop over all Christendom)
But besides there being many references in The New Testament of there being Bishops, Presbyters, and deacons, we have the writings of those who were appointed by the Apostles to succeed them as bishops. Most notably, the writings of St. Ignatius which make it very clear that the church is an organization with leadership.
Jesus came to do away with all this nonsense of the law, asserting domination, status, business tactics, politics, division and all the nasty stuff that follows religious phonies and their pretentious attitudes that all others are heretical trash that needs to be disposed of, when in reality it is the politics of religious activity that needs to be trashed. Catholics set up the very thing Jesus tore down, isn't that ironic?
You have such a negative attitude of a church that does not force people to do anything, that emphasizes free will, and has faithfully passed down the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. The church is not legalistic, neither does it assert domination. All these things you are talking about are examples of the Roman Catholic Church, which has commited every kind of evil in the name of Christ and Papal domination pretty consistently after seperating themselves from The True Church.
The Orthodox Church can prove that it is the historical church of The New Testament, and we do not persecute heretics or anyone for that matter. In fact, we are nicknamed the church of martyrs because when things get bad, we are the ones who end up getting killed.
I have floated around the number of 20 million Orthodox martyrs in the last century, but this source says the number is closer to 66.5 million.
The Orthodox Church is not The Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church has historically persecuted Orthodox. In fact, the first martyr of the lower 48 was reportedly tortured to death by a Roman Catholic Priest for not submitting to the Roman bishop.
Funny how you keep claiming these so-called protestants are only in disagreement with "Orthodoxy" yet you are the one that keeps rehashing the same tired old song and dance. Get real, there was never any church founded by Jesus! what IS founded by Jesus is a personal, individual spiritual cultivation through the use of spiritual principles and concepts. Jesus was more a guru than any religious authority figure and was eventually murdered by them.
What you are saying simply does not stack up to historical record, neither does it do anything but contradict scripture.
There clearly is a church. Jesus had disciples, sent out the 70. There are clearly offices in the church as recorded in The New Testament.
This anarchistic interpretation of the church is not real.
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@Tradesecret
I disagree with your notion that the Orthodox Church is the only true church. I have never dismissed it as being part of the one holy catholic and apostolic church - but I would not isolate it and therefore excommunicate every other believing church as apostate.
You can't excommunicate those who were never in communion to begin with! But there is no historical precedent for heretics such as gnostics, arians, bogamalists, etc as taking part in say, an ecumenical council of the church. They are not part of the church. Now even in the case of those churches that are not outright identified as heretical, but maybe "heterodox", they are still not in communion with The Orthodox Church. We don't know them. They aren't really with us. Depending on how a baptism was performed, a heterodox Christian could become an Orthodox with their baptism respected. I was not baptized Orthodox, but the church recognized my baptism because it was done properly.
Many of these heterodox churches teach things that are contrary to what Orthodoxy teaches. A lot of this stuff was even inherited from Roman Catholicism because western Christianity descends from that. It would be wrong to say that it doesn't make a difference. I believe that the ceaseless schisms of the western churches is an evidence that there is something foundationally corrupted.
The church doesn't really make judgement calls on who is or isn't saved. God knows the hearts of all. I am sure that the grace and mercy of God extends greater than any of us know.
But the Church descended from Jesus and the apostles is The Orthodox Church.
It is my understanding that the Orthodox church also focuses on works as a means of salvation
The Orthodox doesn't really have a faith/works dichotomy. They are seen as being practically one in the same. We are definitely not pietists or legalists. We do see salvation as a lifelong process. "Blessed are the pure in heart, they shall see God" Jesus said. The struggle is in purifying the heart and maintaining that purity of heart. So it isn't a "once saved, always saved" type of thing. If you have faith, you will work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. It isn't that our works save us either! Faith and works. The use of our freewill to cooperate with God rather than fight God. A Christian should strive to be a paragon of mercy and truth. It isn't an inactive faith.
(The Orthodox Church) places tradition - just like the roman catholic church does above the authority of the scriptures.
To say The Orthodox places tradition over scriptures is also not entirely correct. Scripture is an integral part of Church Tradition. The Roman Church does not actually respect Church Tradition as the highest authority, they respect The Pope as the authority over scripture and Church Tradition. That is also historically one of the reasons they aren't Orthodox anymore, nor have they been for over a thousand years.
Scripture is very important to The Orthodox Church, and even though we are not sola scriptura, I would argue that we actually show greater reverence for scripture than other churches without commiting the sin of biblialatry.
Although it does not have a supreme bishop, it does have patriarchs, much in the role of the Anglican Canterbury bishop - first among equals.
It is how the church has always been structured. One corrupt bishop cannot pervert the entire church. It is a system that has allowed the church to survive intact even under strong persecution.
One of my mentors currently is a lecturer in Russia teaching in an Orthodox seminary. I like some of its rituals - some of its traditions - some of its teaching. But there are other aspects I disagree with - and perhaps you in your teaching role - may well be able to explain these better than some of your other teachers. who knows?
I would hope God grants me the grace.
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@Outplayz
If you aren't Orthodox, you aren't really in communion with the historic New Testament Church.
It's not that "other Christians aren't getting it", so much as we don't really know them! We aren't in communion.
Not every Orthodox Christian "gets it", you have people at all stages of their walk in an Orthodox Church. You also have to figure that children are raised in the church.
I personally think that a great rediscovery of The Orthodox Church in America is inevitable as information is now more available about it than any other time, and as the other churches continue to compromise and bend to the whims of culture rather than to stay steadfast in truth.
Besides that, The Orthodox Church has a fullness that is lacking in other churches. We aren't, after all, taking bits and pieces and rolling with it. The Church is complete.
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@Tradesecret
I was especially hoping that you would take part in this.
My intent here is to educate, so I would like to clear any misconceptions.
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The Orthodox Church is The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church founded by Jesus and The Apostles.
I am especially interested in any questions from others who call themselves Christians, because there are a lot of misconceptions about The Orthodox Church among both Roman Catholics and the protestant churches.
Well, I would hope in this topic that the differences become apparent, and that the authority of Orthodoxy is shown. It is The Christian Church.
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@keithprosser
@Tradesecret
The trinity is without a doubt a mystery, and as such it isn't really intended to be explained. But each part of the trinity is explained well enough in scripture to get insight into the mystery.
The Holy Spirit is The Spirit of Truth.
The Son is The Word of God, The Most Perfect Image of God, The Word of Truth we were begatton from to be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
We know The Father through The Son. If The Truth is The Word, and we know it by The Spirit of Truth... what is The Father?
So it is the same being.
The Ultimate Reality is God. The Supreme Being.
The Trinity is not three Gods. The Trinity is not three parts of God. It is One God.
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@janesix
You can not annoy God by praying! Don't feel that way.
The point of praying is not really to have some "mystical experience" either, it is for the aligning of the heart.
An example a prayer we Orthodox use quite a bit...
"O heavenly King, O Comforter, the Spirit of truth, who art in all places and fillest all things; Treasury of good things and Giver of life: Come and dwell in us and cleanse us from every stain, and save our souls, O gracious Lord."
What is the spirit of this prayer? Aligning the heart towards The Truth.
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