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@keithprosser
No, the trinity is not God being divided.
God The Father created the universe through The Son(The Word) in The Holy Spirit.
But these are 3 hypostases Homoousion
1 being.
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@keithprosser
Yet God is One, undivided.
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@keithprosser
If all of creation was united in opposition against God, it would still be like shooting spit balls at the sun.
Orthodoxy is not dualism.
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@disgusted
God's Word is The Light.
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@keithprosser
Like shooting spitballs at the sun.
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@disgusted
God speaks everything into existence as
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
And someone writing these things down does not change the fact that without Ultimate Reality, there is no reality. All of existence is contingent on God.
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@keithprosser
Darkness is not anything to overcome, it is nothing.
Orthodoxy is not dualism. There is no opposite power to God.
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@disgusted
Yet, there is light, and God spoke it into existence.
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@keithprosser
No, there is no such duality in Orthodoxy. Darkness cannot overcome The Light.
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@disgusted
Scripture is creation
The God of scripture isn't.
The Word of God is not creation.
The flesh The Word inhabited is creation.
You are creation.
The God who created you and all of creation is Uncreated.
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@keithprosser
Christianity is not dualistic. Satan is not a foil to God.
In fact, the devil can't even overcome a man unless said man allows the. devil to.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
God speaks everything in existence.
So really, God spoke you into existence, not just scripture.
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@keithprosser
Genesis is a combination of ancient writings and oral tradition.
God created everything.
Mankind was made in God's image.
The first account of creation is more universal(or even Earth) orientated.
The second account of creation is more human orientated.
The taste of evil and the experience of it as such propelled mankind into going against their vocation, which was to care for and cultivate creation. The idea that one can be like God through their own will and efforts was used to tempt mankind into evil.
And you still see this today.
I think it is worth noting that these texts are used to educate a nation of priests.
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@keithprosser
No, in fact, if you read Orthodox writings about the subject, dictating is the word they use to describe what is not happening.
And sure enough, you are going to get the personalities of the writers innjust about every book of the bible. There are 4 gospels even. 4 different accounts. If you look at the books of Kingdoms and the books of Chronicles they often times describe the same events.
It has not been an issue for us Orthodox for 2000 years. I know there is this modern attitude that people back in the day were ignorant superstitious savages, but really, people were just as intelligent back in the day, just with different toys! Different mythologies and idols even. People today are just as pagan as they were in the old days of Rome. Hey, we don't have gladiator games, but we have football.
But the early church was composed of many who were very well educated. Besides Jews, who have always taken their education seriously, the church was composed of Greeks who were also known to take education very seriously. Even Romans in their own way.
And if you read the writings of these people, it would be hard to say that their most clever were any less clever than the most clever you find today! People really have not changed that much.
So all of tgese things the skeptics trip around and point out about the bible as a reason to disbelieve in the faith, people held the same opinions even back in the earliest days of Christianity. Many of the different gnostic sects found the old Testament in particular to be very obnoxious.
But The Orthodox Church has never had issue with these things because we know what the scriptures are used for. We are not like The Muslims who actually do believe that the Koran was dictated by God to their "prophet". We do not elevate the bible to be an idol before God. The bible is, however, an integral part of our church tradition.
So even if none of that makes any sense to you, get. this. The Bible is our book, and we know what we use it for. Any interpretation of the bible outside the church isn't really seen as valid to us. It is, after all, our book. It doesn't belong to secular scholars or heretics.
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@keithprosser
Surprise surprise.
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@keithprosser
Tradesecret is right on this, the church does not see the books of the bible as being dictated.
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@keithprosser
Oh, you misjudge me. I'm making fun of outplayz because he invented his own religion, and the more he talks the more insecure he looks. I'm just egging him on. His mind fills in the blanks, because he thinks it is all about him like the spiritual egotist he is. Keep the cocaine away from this guy.
Isn't it interesting that he is lecturing me on pride?
Paragon of humility right here, Mr. Outplayz he is.
Of course I struggle with pride issues. The only people who don't are the ones who have embraced their pride. Well, I wasn't born an Orthodox. I certainly didn't have to submit myself to the church. After all, it would have been very easy for me to say, "Oh I got it all already, I don't need a church.". But me doing so was certainly an act of humility for someone with as much pride in fheir own insight as I.
Certainly, I can be haughty, and it is to my shame.
But I am not disputing Outplayz. In fact, he isn't even really arguing with me, he's fighting himself right now. He thinks he's fighting me, but that is because he lacks self awareness.
But that is just this ones observation, and I probably just see that because I'm arrogant.
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@Outplayz
A different wise man that I take council from once told me that you cannot humiliate a truly humble person.
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@Outplayz
You can't insult me, so you are better off not trying.
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@Outplayz
Wrong about what? Right about what?
I don't know.
You seem awfully threatened by what you say are "implications" and "various attacks".
Spiritual egotists do tend to be attracted to Hinduism and Buddhism. It allows them to parade around as if they are enlightened gurus while manifesting their immaturity for all to see.
That isn't to say that there aren't many sincere and humble hindus or buddhists. I am not saying that. I am saying that the spiritual egotist tends to be attracted to these traditions as a sort of self justification. It is something I have certainly noticed in my years.
Oddly unrelated, I know a lot of really emotionally unstable scientologists. Don't know why I felt the need to comment on that.
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@keithprosser
I was referring to my brother really loving Tom Skilling specifically.
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@janesix
A prayer that is usually recommended is "Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
That one has been popular among monastics for quite a long time.
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@3RU7AL
My brother really loves Tom Skilling.
He's a meteorologist.
I don't get it.
But I think it's funny you reference this weatherman that I figured would be obscure outside of Chicago.
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@janesix
I would say that knowing the intent is a good start!
Really, if you are mindful, it practically shows you on its own.
The biggest foe is pride. If it helps, look at yourself alone as being truly wicked and perverse. Strange as that may seem, it does help. It is very easy for someone who has made a lot of progress to think they are something. This in itself is also a type of defilement of the heart that nudges us off the mark.
But yeah, knowing the intent might be the most important thing.
The goal of the hesychast is to eventually pray unceasingly, that is, to always be mindful of God. Jesus did say, "blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God". That being the case, heart purification should be a lifelong practice.
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@Polytheist-Witch
If you haven't noticed, I think you will come to realize that consistency is not something you are going to find in these circles.
Magic is the utilization of belief as a tool. As this is the case, magic tends to adapt to what it is that the target of the magic believes.
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@3RU7AL
The very nature of God is existence.
That is what "being" means.
Supreme Being.
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@janesix
Purifying the heart.
If it is done properly, at least. That is really the intent.
We Orthodox call it hesychastic prayer, Hesychastic meaning "stillness".
And as Jesus rebuked the storm and calmed the sea, so does The Truth calm the ragings of the soul.
Interestingly enough, in Greek another way of refering to the soul is "Sea of emotions".
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@Polytheist-Witch
Of course it is relevent. It conclusively addresses the OP.
/topic
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@Polytheist-Witch
The Ultimate Reality is Lord of all worlds. The Truth is universally The Word of God.
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@keithprosser
That is you don't merely demand that reality 'is' (which is not indispute) but that 'reality so loved the world that it gave its only begotten son... etc', that reality hears and answers prayers and damns sinners to hell.
Did you ever stop to consider that maybe you don't really understand the things you are dismissing?
Like, you really don't get any of this stuff. Am I not proof enough that you have it wrong? Excuse me if that sounds haughty!
Yes, I know the God I worship. It is The Truth. Everything about my religion is geared towards bringing about that realization, and helping one to purify themselves in order to be sincere in The Truth. You look at the outward trappings, and you think that is it. In doing so, you reduce it all to being as any other pagan belief, because paganism is at its core the worship of the creature rather than the creator.
It really has to be this way though, because as I have proven time and time again since I even first came here(those with the eyes to see will see!)... People do not accept plain, direct, lucid teachings when it comes to God. For that reason, we teach through parables and typology.
And we understand the root of these things and why these things are so better than anyone, because The Orthodox Church is a hospital for the sick, and those who come to be cured will find God as the good doctor.
You, like all of the confused are taking the wrong approach to things. Jesus said, "blessed are the pure in heart, they shall see God", not "Blessed are those who believe the right things will see God!".
As such, the church is mainly focused on purifying the heart.
And no other Church but The Orthodox Church does this with knowledge, because The Latin Church became haughty, legalistic, and puffed up in knowledge; The Protestant churches all have amnesia and don't know where they came from!
But we know what we believe, and we have remained faithful to the tradition that was passed to us from Jesus and his Apostles. We are The Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
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@3RU7AL
The Orthodox Church from the very beginning understood God as being The Ultimate Reality. The Supreme Being. This is clear from the writings of the saints, monastics, and theologians. I have studied these things pretty extensively.
The misuse of a word by the common ignorant and superstitious man does not magically change what it is we are talking about.
The dictionary is not my argument. However, the dictionary is the easiest way to demonstrate the arbitrariness that is intrinsic to the atheist mindset. After all, their behavior is predicted by the dictionary.
Atheism towards God is an abominable superstition that is obviously self defeating and not worthy of consideration. Those who profess such a position are as wrong as a child who says 2 plus 2 is 22, and should not be humored as having a legitimate stance. Their position is one of bad education.
And since I am aware that atheists aren't aware of this and take much pride in their error, I try to be nice about it because haven't we all been very wrong at times? I know I have. However, this is not one of those things. The Ultimate Reality is God, and sure as The Truth is what it is, God exists.
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Linguistic arbitrariness is always favored by the atheist, who makes arguments that are contingent on twisting language in order to justify an irrational and obviously moronic position.
If they don't believe truth, why make exception in language!
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@keithprosser
whatever the rather pretentious phrase 'ultimate reality' means!
See, I am simply unable to overcome your invincible ignorance in regards to this.
But if you abandon your nihilism, it means Reality as it Truly Is.
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@3RU7AL
Ultimate Reality by definition is 1. To say there are two ultimates is a serious corruption of language.
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@3RU7AL
God is Existence. The Ultimate Reality is Existence in the truest sense of the word.
But if it isn't obvious, even if someone is buried in a mountain of delusion, reality is still there present, so God truly is everywhere. Nothing escapes the eye of God. There is even reality that allows reality to be what it is.
But you are right to say that this is fundamentally about the difference between The Uncreated and that which is created.
Which incidently is how the church fathers all took this issue. The west departed from this when the scholastics mistakenly took themselves as being philosophically advanced or something.
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@Polytheist-Witch
The Ultimate Reality is The Creator, greater than your gods in name only, who if they have any authority at all, was certainly granted by The Ultimate Reality.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I don't worship a book as God.
You don't really understand my faith as well as you think you do.
The God I believe in is not a created being. The God I believe in is The Uncreated Created Creator of all creation. The Ultimate Reality.
I am not lying. You worship created things as gods. That is why you think I do the same. So you only see the created manifestations. You don't see The Spirit.
My God is not like the pagan gods. Very different.
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@Polytheist-Witch
I'm not talking about "my truth" as if truth were such an arbitrary thing. I am talking about The Truth itself, Reality As It Truly Is.
And this is what I acknowledge as God, no other. Take me out of the picture. I must become less so The Truth is magnified.
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@Polytheist-Witch
The Truth lies?
That's a pretty bold claim.
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@keithprosser
As I said in the post you responded to but didn't read, it is a matter of language not reverence.
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@Polytheist-Witch
"Prove to me that it is true that there is truth!"
That is what you are asking. My God is The Truth. So when you ask me to prove my God, you are not asking a reasonable question.
My God certainly exists. I'm sure you would come to accept that too if you believed what I was saying.
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@Polytheist-Witch
There is no proof Jesus ever lived.
Yet, his body, his Church, is still here in an unbroken chain of the laying on of hands.
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@keithprosser
It has been too long..
Full Definition(courtesy merriam-webster)
- 1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimatereality: asa : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universeb Christian Science : the incorporealdivine Principle ruling over all as eternalSpirit : infinite Mind
- 2 : a being or object believed to havemore than natural attributes and powersand to require human worship; specifically: one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
- 3 : a person or thing of supreme value
- 4 : a powerful ruler
So as you can see, only The Ultimate Reality can be refered to as God. All these other entities that are not The Ultimate Reality can be called gods. There by definition is only 1 God.
And lets not pretend you have reverence for any of these gods, because you don't believe any of them exist. You don't even believe in the big G.
But it is a matter of language, not reverence.
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@keithprosser
No I wasn't!
Er now I am?
I see what you did there.
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@Tradesecret
You are, unsurprisingly, wholly ignorant about The Orthodox Church. Protestantism in general is plagued by amnesia of the church.
Rome broke off from us, because they arbitrarily changed things concerning the faith and declared The Pope to be king over Christendom.
We Orthodox have kept the same faith, while Rome has made the type of innovations that you falsely attribute to us.
And common sense even lends credence to this(besides the historical record)
Was the new testament written in latin or greek?
Did 4 patriarchs break from the 1 or did the 1 break from the 4?
And if you want proof that Orthodoxy has remained consistent since the earliest days, studying the church fathers and saints that protestant churches like to forget existed will show that the Orthodox Church is very steadfast.
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@Tradesecret
Saint Athanasius
You mention that name.
Orthodox Bishop of Alexandria.
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@Tradesecret
I think it is rather silly to talk about what protestants believe, because they seem to only be united by their anarchy and rejection of Orthodoxy.
How can I compare the lesbian priestess sect to the bible is a scientific manual sect?
What church are we talking about? There is no protestant church!
Yes, you reject the ecumenical councils because they did not always favour the orthodox - Eastern church. The church split over whether the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son or whether he did not. the ecumenical church council ruled against the eastern church. No surprise you see no use in them.
See, here is something we could actually talk about because you are wrong and we actually have this stuff well documented. We Orthodox know where the corruption of the creed that was agreed by the ecumenical councils came from, and we know how Rome ended up adopting it.
I see you are winging it as you go along though. A very protestant approach.
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