Mopac

I wasn't making an argument, so you accusing me of making a logical fallacy is rather silly.

Not missing much. I said something along the lines of "Congratulations, you managed to make both me and my spouse laugh"

Didn't edit fast enough.

I thought what you said was ridiculous and lacking self awareness so I read it to my spouse. We both did laugh, but I changed my mind about mentioning that in my post. Oh well. I guess I didn't edit fast enough.

Good show.

You should take up stand up comedy. All the best gurus are comedians.

A wise man I take council from has often said, "There are two types of Christians. Those who struggle with pride issues, and those who are in denial about struggling with pride issues."

The Truth is God.

I would say that the associating the serpent with the devil comes from typological interpretation of the bible, which was how the earliest church tended to interpret scripture. Orthodoxy still maintains this as part of church tradition.

That is a very common justification for spiritual egotism.

There is by definition One God.

The word "Gods" is a nonsensical word, because there cannot be 2 ultimate realities.

The protestants very understandably broke away from the Latin church, which was heretical to begin with. However, they did throw away Church tradition, and it would be silly to deny this. Reading the earliest church fathers makes it very clear that protestantism has discarded a great deal.

And Sola Scriptura is kind of silly, because The Orthodox Church compiled the New Testament. Besides, protestants don't even have all the books because they abandoned the old testament the church has used for thousands of years in favor of a translation they think is in the original language.... oh then they butcher the new testament via textual criticism.

It's like you all think the church sat around wondering what to do until the bible was compiled or something.

No, we knew what we believed before the new testament was compiled.

Ecumenical councils? Forget about that. I've heard the corrupted Roman creed in protestant churches. I've heard the apostles creed.

No, protestants forgot tradition. They have an incomplete church, it's the truth.

@brutallychicken

There is no reasoning with you because you block the people who try.

Really the issue here is what you mean by pieces of God, and by the way, I insist that you capitalize God, because I am not talking about a god. There is a big difference.

See, what you are saying can be interpreted in ways that are theologically correct, and in some ways that are very off the mark. 

For example, it would be wrong to call a tree God. 

For example, it would be wrong to say that the sum of all creation is God, like we were cells in God's body.

For example, ot would be wrong to say that a piece of God was broke off to make creation.

But we are getting pretty close to the mystery of the incarnation.

Let me help you a little bit at least with The Trinity.

What makes them the same is that they are all The One Truth. So where does the three come in? It is how we experience God. We experience God Through The Son with The Holy Spirit.

The Truth, The Most Perfect Image of God with The Spirit of Truth.

And The Word becoming flesh? All of creation, enlivened by the holy spirit. That is how God is with us. It is a mystery. Very real though. Very true. Not really something to be intellectualized. It is something to be experienced.

I am really trying to get Brutal to clarify what he means by what he is saying. I am doing this by making these statements. If he has no issue with whatbI am saying, then it may not be wrong what he is saying.

Really, this is all very relevent stuff to talk about as far as the incarnation.

What you are talking about is actually understood through concepts we have in the church about uncreated energies and such. It can be a bit technical. One step at a time.

I don't know, I feel like the priest I go to is like a friend. I trust his advice. He doesn't give me the impression that I have to submit to him. We are both pretty aware that Christ is the one we are submitting to. A priest is a minister of God's grace, not a dictator.

I respect the position. It is a hard job.

But no, you don't have to do everything the priest tells you. You really should though. It's probably in your best interest. Maybe the priest sees something you are blind to?

There are a few priests at my parish. I don't get the impression that they lord a position over anybody. 

But if you do want a good reason, consider the relationship between a father and their child. A child is not always going to understand everything their father tells them to do, but it is usually in their best interests to trust that it is for their own good they listen.

I have mentioned this in another topic before that the Hindu word for "God" is Brahman.

And sho 'nuff there tends to be a word or concept for God in most languages, cultures, religions, etc.

In fact, I think you will notice on that wikipedia page you listed, Brahman is understood to mean "The Ultimate Reality", something I tend to throw around a lot.

And there is even a link to a page there "The Absolute". You can see how the concept is fairly universal.

I think it is worth mentioning that there is a difference between what is said about The Ultimate Reality and what The Ultimate Reality actually IS.

Yet by saying it is a piece of God, does that not imply that this piece is missing from God? Or even that the pieces make up God?

God is not diminished. God is not divided into parts. Neither is it a strange thing for God to call matter into existence.

You were created by God. I do not acknowledge your god. These are two different words with two different meanings. I am not condescending to your bad language, because it would only serve to be destructive.

It would be haughty to presume that just because you can see only 2 possibilities means that those are the only 2 possibilities.

There is a distinction between the created and the uncreated, and the distinction here is the difference between God as God Truly is, and that which is NOT God.

We are not the building blocks or parts of God. God does not lose anything to create the universe, no piece of God is missing. Is God in everything? Yes. Is God everywhere? Yes. Did God create everything in existence from a previously existing substance? No. It all came from God. But created things are not God.

It would be incorrect to bow down to a statue and say, "This is God". 

As it would be, because gods are not God. These "gods" are created beings, while God is Uncreated, and truly The Eternally Existing One.

And nothing about God creating everything eliminates the inherent mystery of that.

You are not God.

The Apostle Peter wrote, "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation".

The Apostle Paul wrote to Timothy, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth"

Etrnlvw is as much of a Christian as an old testament Jew who sacrificed to Baal. I hope you can see that he has an irreverent attitude towards scripture and the church. His view of things is very skewed, and though I could go through each and every one of his points and soundly refute it with scripture, he doesn't really respect what scripture says. Take his opinion for what it is. The arrogant posturings of a spiritual egotist.

The Orthodox Church is the very church founded by Jesus and the apostles. We have thousands of years worth of writings from the church fathers and the saints who confirm Orthodoxy as being the authoritative Christian Church. These spiritual anarchists are only going to lead you into pride and delusion.

So if you really want the right belief concerning these things, look into Orthodoxy. I will do my best to accurately represent the position of the church, which I do not blindly follow, but believe with knowledge, understanding, and discernment.

Etrnlvw will sooner send you to some Swami. He is not a Christian. Don't be fooled. He is deceived, and because he is deceived he cannot help but deceive others.

And though that might not sound nice, sometimes the truth doesn't sound nice. I do not hate etrnlvw, and would not tell you to either. I want the best for him, just as I want the best for you.

The best thing to do is go with God. The church of Jesus Christ is The Orthodox Church. It is a hospital to help you purify your heart, not a courthouse that makes judgement. Etrnlvw doesn't know Orthodoxy, take what he says about it with a grain of salt.

"The Gods" should be translated "The gods"

Protestants might notice that their bible does not contain the book of 1 Ezra. 

The Ezra that the protestant bible contains is 2 Ezra in the Orthodox bible.

Roman Catholics might notice that their book of 1 Esdra does not contain this account. That is because 1 Esdra in the Roman Catholic Bible is our 2nd Ezra(Or the Protestant Ezra), and their 2nd Ezra is the book of Nehemiah for us Orthodox and Protestants. 

But not only is this book quoted by many of the church fathers, but also even Jewish historians such as Josephus. 

Another interesting fact, Zerubbabel is listed as a descendant of Joseph in the book of Matthew, husband of Jesus' mother Mary.

From 1 Ezra 3-4:46 (Scripture taken from the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint Copywrite 2008 by St. Athanasius Academy of Orthodox Theology)

~~~

Now King Darius put on a great banquet for all his subjects, for his entire household, and for all the nobles of Media and Persia. He also invited all the satraps, commanders, and governors under him throughout the one hundred and twenty seven provinces extending from India to Ethiopia. They ate and drank, and when they were satisfied they returned home. As for King Darius, he returned to his bed chamber and slept, but awoke.

Then the three young men who were attending the king as bodyguards said one to the other, "Let each of us speak one strong saying, and whichever saying of ours seems to be the strongest, King Darius will give him great gifts and a feast in his honor. He will be dressed in purple, drink from gold cups, ad sleep in a gold bed. He will have a chariot with a gold-studded bridle, a turban of fine linen, and a gold necklace around his neck. Because of his wisdom he will sit second to Darius and will be addressed as kinsman of Darius."

So each one then wrote down his saying, sealed it, and placed it under the pillow of King Darius. THey said, "When the king awakens, they will give the writings to him ad the one whose saying the king and the three nobles of Persia may judge the wisest, the victory shall be given to him, as it is written."

The first one wrote, "Wine is the strongest." The second wrote, "The king is the strongest." The third wrote, "Women are the strongest, but above all things the truth conquers."

So when the king was awakened, he took the writings the gave to him, and he read them. Then he sent forth and invited all the nobles of Persia and Media and the Satraps, commanders, governors, and highest officials. e took his place in the seat of judgement, and the writings were read in their presence. He said, "Call the young men, and they will clarify their sayings." so they were summoned and came in. They said to them, "Interpret for us the sayings you wrote."

So the first, who spoke about the strength of wine, began and said thus: "Men, how is wine the strongest? It leads astray the mind of all who drink it. It makes a single mind of both the king and the orphan, of the servant and the freeman, and of the poor man and the rich man. It turns every mind to feasting and gladness, and it does not remember any pain or any debt. Wine makes all hearts rich, does not remember a king or satrap, and makes everyone talk in big money terms. When men drink, they do not remember to act as a friend to friends, and after a short while they draw swords. But when they become sober, they do not remember what they did. O me, is not wine the strongest because it forces us to do such things?" SO he spoke in this way and then became silent.

Then the second, who talked about the strength of the king, began to speak: "O men, has not man prevailed on land and sea, becoming the master of them and everything in them? But the king is strong and rules over these, for he is their master; whatever he commands them they obey. If he commands one to make war on the other, they do it. If he sends them out against enemies, they go and subdue mountains, walls, and towers. They kill and are killed, but the word of the king is not transgressed. If they conquer, they bring everything to the king- whatever they forage or anything else. But those who do not serve as soldiers nor wage war, but cultivate the land, they too bring to the king whatever they sow and harvest. They also compel one another to pay taxes to the king. Although he is only one man, yet if he says to kill, they kill, if he says to spare, they spare. If he says to smite, they smite; if he says to destroy, they destroy; if he says to build, they build; If he says to cut dow, they cut down; If he says to plant, they plant. So all his people and his army listen to him. In addition to these things, he reclines- he eats, he drinks, he rests- while they keep watch around him. Nobody can leave to do his own business, nor they disobey him. O me, in what is the king not strong, since he is so carefully obeyed?" Then he kept silent.

Really, we are all brothers. An Orthodox from the Antiochan church can partake of the holy eucharist in a Russian or Greek Orthodox church. It is One Church. These "churches" are administrative divisions. It is a good system because if one of the churches is being oppressed by a government to change doctrines, the changes won't last past the period of oppression. The church in Russia has a pretty long history of the government meddling in church business, both by the Tzars and the Soviets. None of this meddling ends up sticking.

Contrast this with Roman Catholicism, where all you have to do is get to the Pope and bam, the whole church gets altered. This has happenes too.

A Methodist, Presbyterian, Roman Catholic, or even a Baptist, in contrast to Orthodox churches cannot walk into an Orthodox Church and partake of the Holy Eucharist.

But you could probably walk into most protestant churches and take communion. This isn't because they are more open and loving, it's because they don't take the mystery as seriously as us. 

That isn't true at all. That feud is between Constantinople and Russia, and it has to do with granting the Church of Ukraine autocephalous status. The Russian Church and Constantinople are fighting over that because Russia sees The Ukraine Church as part of their jurisdiction. It will blow over. 

My church, the church of Antioch, is still very much in communion with Russia... and Constantinople for that matter.

I am not calling you a protestant. I don't get the impression you are a Christian.

You are certainly a product of the protestant attitude though, which is typified by rebellion against church tradition. You and just about all of western society.

As for me being Orthodox, I don't see it as dividing myself from other believers. If you aren't Orthodox, calling you a believer might be a stretch. So really, it is setting apart the believers from the unbelievers.

What is it they are not believing in? The One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic church.  

I have studied the scriptures of every major religion. I have not always been Orthodox, and there was a time, like you, I would have shied away from the Christian label. I am very securely an Orthodox.

Now, you say you are part of a nondenominational church. I would call that protestant or Evangelical. In a way, nondenominational has become its own denomination. It is still a rejection of church tradition, which is terribly disrespectful to every Christian and saint who has ever lived, particularly the first millennium of Christianity. 

The Orthodox Church is The Church. These denominations or "non"denominations are not the church. We are a set apart nation of priests. We are The New Israel. Our church is decended from the apostles. It is True Christianity.

These other so called churches? They are eating from the crumbs of our table. They are not the church.

Nothing doesn't exist. That is its defining characteristic.

I am not talking about god, I am talking about God.

Created things are not part of what is uncreated, that makes no sense.

We Orthodox see secularisation as naturally following from protestantism. It isn't a surprise to us that protestants tend to be secular.(Obviously not all)

The secular leaning protestants, especially the ones that think spiritual gifts ended after the first century... would likely find the accounts of some of our saints difficult to swallow. Even the more recent saints tend to have miracles attributed to them. Saints that are especially known to be followed by miracles tend to have the nickname "wonder worker". 

Everything is made through God's word and spirit.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

God does not pop into existence, there was never a time when God did not exist. Time was created by God. God can certainly create from nothing. That is what God does with his Word and Spirit.

But yes, God is in everything. That doesn't mean that a rock is part of God.

A friend of mine is really crazy about Kent Hovind. I'm pretty sure that guy has lectured on it, and has presented a lot of maybe evidence.

I don't know. I remember him being interesting in that he presents a side of the argument that at least gets you to wonder a little bit more about things.

I can't really vouch for the accuracy of anything he talks about, but I can say that I am pretty sure he touches this subject.

The Ultimate Reality by definition must contain every alternate universe if they exist. The right way is always The Truth, that is universal.

So 1 God over them all.

I hope that conclusively answers your question.

The Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

It is one church.

We have an autocephalous system though, so there are at least 14 self governing churches(recognized by everyone, there are more

that are aren't recognized by all the other churches). But it is really one church. We all believe the same thing. We have communion with eachother. We all meet together and discuss things pertaining to the wider church.

One of the nice things about this system is that we don't have say,  a Pope who can just arbitrarily speak from his chair of infallibility, depart from tradition, and corrupt the entire church. In fact, one of the major things that lead to what historians call "the great schism" had to do with the Bishop of Rome having this crazy idea that he was king over all of Christendom and could determine things outside of his autocephalous church. The Orthodox Church, the true church, accepts only Christ as king, and we have remained faithful to what was passed down by the apostles, while Rome has made many innovations and has broken into thousands and thousands of churches, as that is where the protestant movement comes from.

There is really one church. If they aren't with us, they aren't part of that church.

I am telling you what The Orthodox Church teaches.

Our religion is not a set of rules to follow. We do respect civil authorities.

A bishop is a living icon of Christ, and just as an icon of Mary cannot be depicted as a male, so can not a bishop be a female.

A father who does not chastise their child does not love them. 

God also gives grace to the humble, but resists the proud.

God doesn't condemn anyone, it is God's will that all are saved. However, some choose to reject God. God has given us the freedom to reject God. In so doing, those who reject God bring about their own suffering. God does not force people to choose the right thing. 

I have heard it said by an old retired priest that the only real unforgivable sin is to refuse to believe that one can be forgiven. And sure enough, I believe this does count as a blasphemy against The Holy Spirit. The condemnation of Judas was not that he sold out Christ or that he killed himself.. it was that he did not accept that he could be forgiven.

I have also heard it said that those who cross over into paradise will be surprised at who they find there.

Translation: I am a nihilist, and I like to project my stupidity by calling others retarded

Not at all. You are very wrong. I know the God I believe in. I am not confused. You are. That is why you are an atheist. You have adopted a position that means denial of truth.

That is what your position means in the context of my faith, which is TRUTH WORSHIP.

The problem with atheism at the core, as you have no doubt heard from me countless times, is that The Ultimate Reality is God.

That being the case, atheism can never be respected as valid. Quite the contrary, it might even be denial of The Holy Spirit(the spirit of truth), which means that to us it is a big elephant in the room that can't be overlooked. After all, if you don't believe in the truth, you simply cannot be trusted. You certainly don't deserve to be trusted. You are, after all, practically if not outright admitting that you don't believe anything you say. You have no conviction. Any claims to the contrary can simply be dismissed as lies, because, being that the atheist denies truth, nothing they say is really any more true or false than anything else.

And atheists will take this as a strange thing, but that is because they don't understand how atheism looks in the context of religion that acknowledges The Truth as being God.

And being offended about it won't do any good, because the atheist by nature has embraced a position of arbitrariness. It is they who are really making war, not those who are pointing out the untenability of such a worldview.

Atheism at best is a position of ignorance. At worse, a position of nihilism. It cannot be entertained as being valid to us. It is self defeating.

I am not backtracking at all, you are misinterpreting something.

I am not saying that you or keith are in favor of genociding people.

I did imply that there might be some looking the other way whem the people who are trying to do that go through with their plans. After all, they tend to mock and scoff at the faith in much the same way. There is a historic precedent that gives me much reason to think these things.

So really, you xan hardly blame me for being a bit offended. I am not going to stop you. I don't think there should be anti-blasphemy laws or anything like that. You certainly have a right to your beliefs.

So really, it is a matter of respect. How many Orthodox Christians do you even know? They are a small minority in my country, The United States. Mostly immigrant. The kind of Christianity you are likely exposed to and more familiar with is either Roman Catholicism or Protestant/Evangelical anarchism. We Orthodox think very differently and our theology is superior in every way. Why? Because we know our God. The protestants rarely seem to even know God, and Roman Catholicism has done more evil in the name of Christ than just about any institution. They aren't with us.

I am here to educate, so it wouldn't hurt to take advantage of the opportunity.

What did I say anybody said? Why do accuse me of dishonesty, I am without guile. Your accusation is baseless.

Orthodoxy is not a religion of law, but spirit.

The spirit is truth and love.

Equal rights and protection under the law is something statesmen and politicians can argue about. We Orthodox are supposed to obey the law.