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@Plisken
The idea that men and women are different must be obnoxious in a culture of choose your own gender. A culture of "self declaration is proof of identity".
Only in terms of being convenient.
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@3RU7AL
They aren't even the same thing as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, women are loved by the church just as men.
No, women are not the same as men. A man cannot carry a child and give birth. Woman have a wonderful gift in that regard, and this modern idea that it is a shameful thing to be a mother is a reflection of how perverse the prevailing culture is.
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I want to make it clear that since Israel exists, and what is done is done... I am not by any means anti-Israel or even pro-Israel. I am merely pointing out a historic reality. that most people are ignorant of.
Most Palestinians were Christian, not Muslim as people believe today.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Never made the claim that you were in favor of creating Israel.
And if you contradict me on that, you won't go anywhere, because I am not being deceitful.
What I am claiming is that it is perfectly acceptable to spread hatred toward my people. It is bad enough that we get blamed for every evil a heretic does in the name of Jesus, but we have people openly spreadin the same propaganda the Soviet Union spread around while they were systematically trying to erase the idea of God from their culture. While they were demolishing our churhces. While they were slaughtering our priests. While they murdered millions of us to the blind eye of a world who is content to get rid of us.
So yeah, it does matter to me that people actually come to understand our faith and what we believe in. But anytime someone like me comes out to educate people, we are drowned out in a chorus of irreverence, invincible ignorance, hatred, unreasonableness, know-it-allism, etc.
And obviously, we think it is important. The most important thing. And in a world of nihilism and pride in one's arbitrariness, for anything to be so important sounds like MADNESS.
I'm sorry the Romans and the protestants ruined Christianity for you all. This secularism you love is a direct result of their heresy. Our way is superior, and that is only right, because we are the original and true church.
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@3RU7AL
There are plenty female martyrs.
A disciple is one who practices a discipline. There are female disciples.
Gender equality is a myth and and it has nothing to do with being desirable or undesirable.
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@Polytheist-Witch
The priest is an icon of Christ. We do not paint icons of Mary as a male.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Though there have been and are governments that have adopted Orthodoxy as a state religion, the church has always, even in this situations, maintained that church and state should not be the same entity.
In fact, it is considered the heresy of Caesaropapism, of which there are several examples of in history. Not the least of which is The Roman Papacy especially during the time of the Papal States, and during certain periods both Byzantine Rome and Czarist Russia.
The Orthodox Church is the rightful interpreter and guardian of scripture. We compiled the new testament, and ours is the church founded by Jesus and the apostles. None of these protestant churches with their wild end times interpretations of scripture can claim the same. Theres is a religion 2 steps removed at least from the church. First step through Roman Catholicism, which broke away from us and has not been in communion with us for over a millennia, and then second step through the protestant reformation which in a great way was a reaction against this schismatic church.
We use scripture to teach people to love The Truth and be charitable toward one another. To help people be better at these things. We have been doing it for 2000 years.
If Orthodox religious beliefs were to have an influence on national policy, and that would be natural if people voted and had this as their religion, there would only be benefit because Orthodoxy is entirely moral.
In fact, if everyone was a practicing Orthodox many of the problems that governments try to legislate away would be minimized or even eliminated. We don't persecute others. We are environmentally friendly. We are honest. We are hard workers. We do not revolt against the government.
How does what I'm saying relate to you reading the bible? You can't detach the bible from how it is used and what it is used for. You can't detach the bible from church tradition and read it skeptically while expecting to get anything out of it.
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@3RU7AL
Men and women are not treated the same way by the world.
A man traveling around the world alone is not going to face the kind of problems a woman traveling alone will.
There were many female disciples, but a female should not be someone who is sent out into a foreign country to spread the good news. In fact, every single one of the apostles with one exception was martyred in some gruesome way. The one that didn't die? He was boiled alive, but lived. Guess he lucked out.
But men and women are different, and they have to deal with different issues. The idea that we are all the same is ridiculous as even in socieites that like to pretend this is the case, one cannot help but observe that it is impossible for men and women to not treat eachother differently than they do their own sex. On an individual level? Maybe, but not on a societal level. Besides that, it is contrary to nature, and ultimately not truly desirable.
We are different, and that is ok. Lets make it complimentary and cooperative rather than a point of covetousness or contention.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Considering there have been over 20 million Orthodox martyrs in the last century, I think my "paranoia" is justified. And the number one culprit is a government that had "scientific atheism" as its state religion.
Shit, if we were Jewish, we'd get our own country! Oh, did you know that before the palestinians were kicked out of Israel they were mostly Christian? Good chunk of them Orthodox too. Just ran out of their homes, because screw us, right?
Well, what are we Orthodox called to do? To bless those who curse us and pray for those who despitefully use us. And I do not hate anyone. I am here to be humiliated and take abuse for the sake of The Truth, which I want everyone to have because I love them as I can't help but doing.
I'm not complaining at all, but for me, being here is work. To most people this is how they have fun. I don't like to argue. I am here to educate. I am here because I care about the people here. Yes, sometimes it feels like an excercise in masochism. But that is how I live my life. My whole life.
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@3RU7AL
There is no god that can be competition to God, and man woman relations have been established by nature.
And we Christians are to submit to eachother. We serve. eachother. If you are trying to imply that the way we do marriage is wrong, Inwill have you know that I am very happy with my marriage, so is my spouse. Please, if you want an example of women being subservient to men in the way you are inagining, look at Islam. Compare the two. Women certainly have dignity and respect in Orthodoxy. I think it is worth pointing out that Mary is revered above all the saints, and that we have many female saints besides.
It seems to me that you are offended.
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@janesix
Women are certainly not property of men, married or otherwise. That isn't how the church sees it.
We revere Mary above all the saints. I think that is worth pointing out.
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@3RU7AL
Just think of the equivalent statement - Husbands should submit to their wives and wives should love their husbands.It doesn't seem to have the same ring to it. It doesn't seem very "equal".
Yet Jesus said that the servant among you is the greatest. That is the example of love we are given by him.
What does that mean? It means that the love a husband has for their wife should resemble that of a servant
But woman being the head isn't precedent, and if and when everything in society falls apart and we are catapulted back into the dark ages, it will be very clear to everyone why woman has to submit to the man in the end, as it was for all but 99% of human history and in select geographic locations in that time.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Ok, I see you are beyond instruction.
By all means, mister know it all, frustrate yourself and draw further and further from God while spreading your ignorance abroad and justifying in the minds of those who take us Christians as a disease that our beliefs need to be eradicated... which will only be done through the eradication of our people because what Orthodoxy teaches is THE TRUTH.
And you, being ignorant to the intent and purpose of scripture are not truly debating. You are just as guilty of presuppositionalism. You presume the bible is just a book you pick up and read. It's not. It is a part of church tradition. and detaching it from church tradition and the church runs contrary to the intent of the book.
I am not being unreasonable at all, and there is nothing reasonable about you dismissing my reason. But I see that making pretense is in the spirit of debateart.com. eh?
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@3RU7AL
The thing that makes human beings meaningful is not the fact that we were created by God so much as it is that we are created in the image of God. And the discipline of the Christian is to clean that image so that we can be truly human rather than reduce ourselves to the bestial level through our predispositions to idolatry and being slaves to the flesh.
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Let me rephrase.
It doesn't make sense because it is wrong, and shows a misunderstanding of who God is.
Analgesic spectre, like so many hypocrits who block me, feels no problem unblocking me to say things to me before blocking me again.
May it reflect badly on her until she repents, for this is a reflection of the murder in her heart.
God is The Truth, and The Truth is good.
Morality for the Orthodox is based entirely on God, there is no morality without God. What is moral for us is to cleanse our hearts and abandon idolatry.
Why is say, sexual immorality bad? Because lust is a defilement of the heart, which becomes an idol or god in place of God. This idol motivates us to do things that are destructive. And you can even see the fruits of sexual immorality, which are disease, the multiplication of orphans, the reducing of people to objects of gratification, and ultimately a society unable to sustain itself in a healthy manner
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@keithprosser
Whatever justifies you consenting to the genocide of my people.
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@WisdomofAges
None of that is what the church teaches, but you would rather go on being a hateful bigot than learn the truth eh?
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@keithprosser
It is hard for me to not feel sorrowful over how ignorant and even hateful people are concerning the faith. It feels me with grief that people like you who make joke of these things will never understand, nor care to.
And when they start killing us off, you will probably look away and claim no responsibility.
It is hard for me sometimes. To you it is fantasy, isn't real. But my people are being killed this very moment in places where the people mock and scoff just as it is seen here.
Just send us to the gas chambers, look the other way.
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@WisdomofAges
Translation
"I am an ignorant bigot"
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@Discipulus_Didicit
If you aren't trying to understand the faith, you are wasting your time. And you certainly are not simply "reading the book".
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You are not going to come to understand anything reading the bible like this.
I think you should just give up. I'd be surprised if you even made it through Genesis let alone the Old Testament reading like this.
Something that we Orthodox understand that the sola scriptura crowd doesn't... is that even heretics can use the bible to try and justify themselves. Here, that is what you are doing. This is not an attempt by you to understand the faith, it is simply a way for you to make pretense that you know better.
You are wasting your time.
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Just so you know, the whole "the word God didn't exist until recently" argument is really really dumb. Why don't we just invalidate everything you say because English didn't exist a thousand years ago or something?
Here is a quotation from The Tao te Ching, a very eastern scripture...
"The name that can be named is not the eternal name"
And sure enough, this is a major overarching them of The New Testament... that the letter kills, but the spirit brings life! And the spirit is Truth.
And the church does not force people to convert to Christianity. That isn't what Christianity is about. The Orthodox Church should not be blamed for what those who are not in communion with us do in the name of our God.
There is only One God. The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. Do you say The Supreme and Ultimate Reality doesn't exist? How foolish!
And you certainly have a right to be a fool. We Orthodox Christians will sooner pray for you than persecute you. At least, that is what our faith teaches. So your hatred is unjustified.
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Only in this century is the idea that men and women are different controversial.
And only in a very small part of the world, because there are still many places where a woman will not be taken as seriously as a man during negotiations.
Its reality. Men and women are different. Everybody knows this. Women, it should be obviouus to you that men treat you differently than they do guys. No amount of a woman pretwnding to be a man is ever going to make her a man. No amount of a man pretwnding to be a woman is ever going to make them a woman.
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@janesix
Because men and women are different. Not better, not worse, but different. And there is a certain time tested and proper way to go about things.
If it mb isn't obvious that the other way doesn't work, divorce rates have skyrocketed, as have the multiplication of orphans since the so called "sexual revolution" and feminism.
It's destructive.
Let us not envy or covet eachother's places.
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@janesix
Love as Christ loved the church. With self sacrifice.
So there is a certain level of submission involved. It is not a domineering type of relationship.
At the end of the day, man is the head of the household. As it should be.
And a good husband will listen to his wife and be willing to compromise. In fact, I don't think it is possible for a marriage to work otherwise.
Really, a good husband does know when to submit to their wife... which is probably more often than a man would like to admit. But there is certainly a time when a man needs to stand up.
I am married. We are very happy with our relationship. In fact, we love eachother more every day. We do things as prescribed by the church. God is number 1 in our relationship. In fact, whoever dies first, the other is going to be a monastic. That's the kind of relationship we have.
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@3RU7AL
Part of the mystery of the incarnation is that it sanctifies all of creation.
Contrasts this with the error of the gnostics and other dualists who by contrast take God's creation as dirty and even evil.
Why do you take people as being of equal worth as bacteria? You say this, but I doubt you've ever known a bacteria as you've known another person.
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@janesix
Ephesians 5:22-33
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband
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If (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God, then there is no reason either to care about God's moral goodness or to worship him
That doesn't make any sense to me.
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@janesix
Actually, that isn't really what the church teaches.
The church teaches that women should submissive to their husbands, but also that husbands should be submissive to their wives.
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@janesix
Ever hear the old saying, "Smart as a chimp?"
Inb4 chimps not monkeys
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@janesix
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"
And that is why in every way, this is a right undertaking. It will shed light to everything. Purify the heart.
In fact, this is the spirit behind Orthodox discipline.
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@3RU7AL
The one who gave you life and everything else cannot give your life meaning as well?
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@janesix
Things that are difficult for us alone become easy with God. If your heart is in rebellion, it will make things harder for you.
So to surrender to God is to purify the heart. If you take on this struggle in spirit and in truth, God will help you. The mountains will melt like wax. The armies will be stricken with confusion and fall before you. The titans will fall. The dragons willl be slain.
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@janesix
I think he just callled you intelligent.
Or me, because that is who I see in the mirror.
*puts on sunglasses*
Agent Mopac here.
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@janesix
One doesn't have to be a coward in order to lose morale. One doesn't have to be a coward to be overwhelmed by a stronger foe.
Abide in The Way. The Truth. In The Life. Let God fight your battles. Strong as you may be, you are not stronger than God.
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@janesix
Yet that is the behemoth you will eventually face with that outlook.
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@janesix
Vanity is a behemoth that humbles the strongest of wills.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
There is knowledge, and there is knowledge falsely so called.
It isn't usually apparent to the one who believes in knowledge falsely so called that what they believe isn't knowledge.
But it is also true that The Truth is not the same thing as knowledge.
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Do the right thing. Love The Truth over all things. Be charitable. Shun idolatry. Purify your heart. Don't think of yourself as being something great. God is great. Abandon pride.
Rest in The Truth. The armies surround you. Make God your fortress, and let God fight your battles.
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@keithprosser
Pride in ones so called knowledge is at the root of gnosticism.
It really has not changed much.
Very appealing to that crowd these days for sure.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I don't like the phrase "your truth", it reduces truth to something arbitrary.
I have faith in The Orthodox Church as being the legitimate Christian Church passed down by Jesus and his apostles. I can refer you to help. You can find an Orthodox Church hopefully near you. There is real help there.
What is everyone else going to tell you? You are on your own. Or they willl tell you to learn from a God you don't recognize. It's spiritual anarchy. If you want a real guide, the priest will help you to recognize God and instruct you the proper way concerning the scriptures.
In the Acts of the Apostles, this event is written...
I have faith in The Orthodox Church as being the legitimate Christian Church passed down by Jesus and his apostles. I can refer you to help. You can find an Orthodox Church hopefully near you. There is real help there.
What is everyone else going to tell you? You are on your own. Or they willl tell you to learn from a God you don't recognize. It's spiritual anarchy. If you want a real guide, the priest will help you to recognize God and instruct you the proper way concerning the scriptures.
In the Acts of the Apostles, this event is written...
"Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place.
And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship
and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.”
So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him."
The Ethiopian eunach that humbled himself to receive instruction concerning the scriptures ended up bringing Phillip back to Ethiopia, and to this day Phillip is regarded as the Apostle who brought Christianity to Ethiopia.
So I am suggesting that you consider picking up a guide to the scriptures, and I would suggest looking for that guide in The Orthodox Church.
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@janesix
It is The Orthodox Catholic Christian Church as a whole. That is the people, the organization, the church tradition.
Given its flesh from The Virgin Mary, with Christ as our head. We are the body of Christ.
You could call this a mystery, and it is part of the church's experience.
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@keithprosser
It is something that tends to be spread by gnostics, a really pernicious heresy that has come into resurgence in recent times. Gnosticism is a heresy, and it stands in direct contradiction with the faith. What makes it particularly dangerous is that it likes to disguise itself as Christianity in order to undermine it.
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@EtrnlVw
The idea that there was no organized church, an institution, back in the. days of the apostolic church neither stands up to scriptural scrutiny or historical scrutiny.
So you are not really speaking from a position of knowledge.
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