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@drafterman
I have far greater reason to question the honesty of people who hold a position that literally means that there is no truth, so I don't appreciate you trying to turn it around on me.
I mean exactly what I'm saying.
Most of the confusion here comes from people wishing I was saying something else.
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@SkepticalOne
It always amazes me when people pretend to not know what truth or reality means. If you don't believe in truth and reality, there is no amount of explaining on my part that will make things clear to you.
You have adopted the identity of the skeptic. I tell you that it takes just as much thought to believe something on hearing as it does to reject something on hearing.
I am not making a tautology. You are being obtuse.
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@Outplayz
@Stronn
The Ultimate Reality is God.
Not "What I think God is supposed to mean is The Ultimate Reality"
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@Stronn
I didn't claim any of these things, so perhaps your excessive baggage is keeping you from accepting the obvious.
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@SkepticalOne
That doesn't clarify anything. It's like saying whatever a tree is, is a tree. You're talking in circles.
It really isn't the same thing. You already know what "The Ultimate Reality" means. If I were to tell you what it was, I would be making an identity fallacy. I would not actually be clarifying, I would be making further abstractions which would take away from what the concept actually points to.
So I trust you know what the concept means. If you really do understand, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out why me trying to equate it with something else is foolish.
It Is That It Is.
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. Exactly what that means. That is the definition for the word "God".
I see no reason to accept your ultimate reality is either indistinguishable from reality or can exist without it. Something more substantial than assertion is needed to move beyond this.
It is for clarity sake. To distinguish that which is real in a contingent sense from that which is eternally real.
If something doesn't have reality, or doesn't in reality exist, it is is not real. I don't think that is an extraordinary.
In fact, I am not making any extraordinary claims at all.
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@Stephen
This is why I accuse you of not listening. I have answered many of these questions multiple times already. Maybe you'd listen better if you didn't break posts up like someone who can't keep their mouth shut when someone is talking to them.
What are these "certain guidelines" and where can I read them?
This might best explain what I am telling you.
Then you should have no problem producing these "preceding" and "following" verses and explain to me how they actually explain away this biblical hypocrisy
"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
You are not to make an image to serve it.
Your totally iconoclastic interpretation is wrong, and besides this being shown by context, it is also shown in Moses' use of images. The only way your interpretation can make sense is for you to call Moses stupid. I am more inclined to believe that you are wrong, and simply being arrogant in your refusal to accept this.
And your last question is answered by the preceding two answers.
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@Outplayz
If there are "multiple universes" they exist within The Ultimate Reality.
I never said "this" reality, whatever that means, is The Ultimate Reality. I said whatever The Ultimate Reality is that is The Ultimate Reality.
If there is one reality, The Ultimate Reality would be it. If there are many realities, they exist vecause of The Ultimate Reality, and they have no existence apart from it.
The Ultimate Reality is God.
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@Goldtop
If there is only one, it is the best.
I understand you have a role to play which is why you can't admit God exists, but clearly even you know God exists.
And believe me, I feel very smug pointing this out.
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I simply quoted Hawking and all people can do is accuse me of lying or misrepresenting what he said.
Well, what is he actually saying then?
I do not claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of Hawking's opinion of God. I can say that every atheistic statement I've heard or read him make looks superstitious to me.
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@Goldtop
Sounds like an admission that God exists to me.
There is only one reality. There is none to compare it to. It is the best reality because there is only one.
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I think it is a shame that the orthodox church in Russia would break communion over what seems to be a very political issue. I hope they return to communion in a timely manner.
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@Goldtop
By all means, present his actual position.
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@Outplayz
Ultimate
the best or most extreme of its kind
b : original 1 <the ultimate source>
c : incapable of further analysis, division, or separation
Reality
the quality or state of being real
something that is neither derivativenor dependent but exists necessarily
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@Outplayz
There is plenty that can be known about God simply by contemplating what The Ultimate Reality means.
Know the difference between the created and the uncreated. The Ultimate Reality is not creation. It is not fabrication. Knowledge is a created thing. Knowledge is a good thing. True knowledge.
Not gnosis. Epignosis.
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@Vader
If it isn't simply male or female, I think it should be fill in the blank.
There really isn't an end to these genders, it is a totally arbitrary thing.
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Male
Female
Delusional
But if you really are going to play thos silly game you might as well just make it fill in the blank because there are no end to these genders.
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Steven Hawking is a genius because I was told he was a genius.
Steven Hawking doesn't believe there is a God because...
"we would know everything that God would know, if there were a God, which there isn't."
For someone who is supposed to be such a genius, he sure does have a moronic reason for not believing in God.
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@Outplayz
I know what my God is, certainly. I know it is The Ultimate Reality. That is my God.
There is nothing else to define. In fact, to even define God is doing God a disservice. God is what God is. Whatever The Ultimate Reality actually is, that is God. That is what I acknowledge as God.
My faith is in The Ultimate Reality, not knowledge.
Gnosticism is a heresy for good reason. There is a difference between having faith in The Truth and having faith in understanding.
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@Outplayz
Whatever The Ultimate Reality is, that is God.
What do you want, a grand unified thereom?
As I originally stated, what I say isn't good enough for you. You want me to fabricate something so that I can present you a created thing as God. That isn't what I believe, that is what you believe. I am not a pagan.
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@Stephen
"Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come! It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
I have nothing more to say to you but this...
Repent and turn away from your wickedness.
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@SkepticalOne
Theology is the study of the nature of God.
I believe that how theology understands God is important to this discussion.
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You know the truth isn't in these God deniers because they can't even admit they are ever wrong.
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I have no problem admitting I am wrong. I know I am wrong. The one who is right is God. The Truth is God. That is my God.
I am wrong, I am aa fallible human being, but I know who is right.
The God deniers cannot even admit they are ever wrong.
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@Goldtop
Can you admit you are wrong?
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The staff Moses created by Moses was set up and worshipped as a god, which was why the staff was destroyed. The staff was never intended to be a god to be worshipped.
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@SkepticalOne
You have never heard that God is The Ultimate Reality.
This is why I can't believe you have any knowledge of this subject. This is theology 101 stuff, and without this understanding there really isn't anything.
You are talking about a god or gods. The capitilization is not arbitrary, in English god and God are two seperate words.
In Chinese It is the difference between shen and The Tao. In Arabic it is the difference between illah and Allah.
Look, you might be a fantastic marine biologist, but you are talking about geology to a geologist. The rocks already have names, you would be better off believing me when I tell you the names rather than making up your own.
I'm talking about The Ultimate Reality, and this is what God means in the context of monotheistic theology. That is what is called God. All us monotheists agree on this. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Baha'ists, monotheistic Hindus, etc. I already showed you how this concept is integral to Buddhism through the words of Buddha himself, and I already just pointed out that the concept of The Tao is the same in China.
Know that I am happy to educate, but we can't really go anywhere if you are going to pretend to be knowledgeable on this subject.
For most people, the only proof required to demonstrate the existence of God is to accept what it is we are refering to when we say God. The Ultimate Reality. To take God as anything else is superstition.
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@SkepticalOne
It is really hard to teach people who already think they know.
Oh well.
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@disgusted
So you are never wrong?
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Nothing pleases me more than people who are baffled that I am a Christian. It means I am not building on another's foundation.
At the same time, nothing saddens me more than people who have such a warped view of the faith that they don't recognize that what I am preaching is Christian theology.
God help us all.
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@SkepticalOne
I'm sorry I'm losing you. Maybe you should read over what I've been telling you this whole time more slowly and contemplate for a moment.
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@disgusted
Can you admit you are wrong?
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@SkepticalOne
Unless you're adding "God is Nirvana" to your definition, this is irrelevant to your argument.
Not relevent?
You aren't very perceptive are you?
If I was the old bearded man at the top of the hill, I'd whack you on the head with the knobby stick and say "TRY AGAIN! More water from the well, spill no drop!"
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@SkepticalOne
So you say, but I have demonstrated your definition is not near as universal as you believe and you've done nothing more than submit (demonstrably false) bald assertion on this front. Accept facts.
The concept absolutely is universal, and there is a reason why one of the major overarching themes of the New Testament is that "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life"
You don't know the spirit is Truth. If you knew this, you would see God in all these diverse traditions.
The Tao? It means the same thing as God. Anyone with an understanding of theology can read the tao te ching and see this as being obvious.
God is not a fabrication. If everyone forgot and people were to start over again, God would be rediscovered because it is THE TRUTH.
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@SkepticalOne
Do you realize "Blessed One" in the scripture you've provided refers to the Buddha and not a god?
"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."
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We already have a label for that: reality. I have no problem accepting reality exist. However, calling it "god" doesn't add anything to it and I wonder why we would do this. Let's say we were to accept reality and god were the same thing...then what? Do we just call reality "god" instead of "reality"? What edification does this achieve?
Firstly, I am talking about God, not god. Thry have different meanings. This is an English problem that doesn't exist in all languages.
It is a reality that Donald Trump is the president of The United States of America. Before he took office, this was not reality. After he leaves office this will not be reality. The Ultimate Reality always is reality, it isn't time dependent.
In fact, if a reality is contingent on anything at all it is not The Ultimate Reality. Without hot there is no cold. Without light there is no darkness. God is a singularity, it is not a contingent existence. Yet, everything is contingent on God.
God is the uncreated. God is distinct from creation.
It is important to distinguiish God from simple reality because it is reality in the truest sense.
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@disgusted
Can you admit that you are wrong?
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@SkepticalOne
I do not have a unique definition for God, you only say that because you are uneducated in these matters. This God has been taught for thousands of years.
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@SkepticalOne
Yet here we have God in Buddhist scripture.... one of many examples.
Jesus said "blessed are the pure in heart, they will see God"
The eightfold path is a method of heart purification so that you can "see" God for yourself.
Buddhism is not truly atheistic. It is atheistic in the same sense that Christians were callled atheists in ancient Rome.
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@disgusted
Can you admit that you are wrong?
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@Castin
Then even lies exist in truth, and in no way do lies undermine God as being The Ultimate Reality and Truth.
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@Castin
When I say that these people don't respect scripture, I'm saying that they don't honestly care what the intent and purpose of it is. They don't really care about what it is actually saying, they only pretend to if convenient.
The interpretation that we are not to make any images, statues, or anything like that is actually very common in a lot of protestant circles, and is contradicted by scripture itself that has, even in the time of Moses, this brass serpent, the 10 commandments which are a graven image on stone, and a container for the 10 commandments that has statues on it. CLEARLY the iconoclast interpretation is off the mark.
It is easy for an artist to take their work as an idol before God, serving their creation. Even today, you see people who make the consumption and geeking out over art the thing that makes life for them. The God of scripture is not a created thing. If you take God as a created thing, you are not really looking at God. The point isn't to destroy all art, it is not to be worshipped.
The Truth is God. The whole point of scripture is to plant this in the heart. Scripture itself is supposed to be used to make God known, it is not supposed to be taken as an idol before God.
So sorry if I sound repetitive, but iconoclasm is a heresy. Iconoclasm is destructive towards everything and condemns the iconoclast in the process.
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@Outplayz
I tell you what my faith is and you won't believe me or it isn't good enough.
My God is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
My religion is to abide in The Truth.
I believe that everyone is wrong and that God is right. I believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves.
The everyday Christian is in the classroom just like everybody else.
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@SkepticalOne
If God is the subject of theology, you don't poo poo away theology as being irrelevent to this discussion.
Yes, God is universally recognized as being The Ultimate Reality, and this is an understanding that crosses the divide of cultural and religious tradition.
For you to poo poo it away as if you had even a basic level of education regarding the subject is assinine, because that is what we are discussing. If you won't accept the basic premise you are wasting your time. Believe whatever deluded thing you want to about God if it confirms your own silly superstitions concerning the subject.
The only atheist argument against God is to redefine what God means. Otherwise, denial or even uncertainty regarding the existence of God is revealed for what it is. Manifest foolishness.
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@SkepticalOne
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God.
If you say otherwise, you are simply wrong.
You don't know what you are talking about. You don't even respect the subject matter.
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@Outplayz
Why should I explain myself to someone calling me a liar?
I am very open about my believe. I am very secure in what I believe.
I am an unashamed Christian. I don't believe for a second you know what that means. I also don't believe you care. You, after all, have it all figured out.
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@secularmerlin
How can you say there is no meaning when there is meaning all around you?
You are even using words, which without meaning do not even exist.
If the universe exists without meaning, what do you mean by the universe?
You say there is no meaning, but that cannot be true. You are using meaning to convey that there is no meaning.
No meaning
No value
But you say you believe in science? This I find difficult to believe. It sounds to me like you are claiming to believe in nothing.
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@SkepticalOne
Not god, but God.
The reason you should accept that The Ultimate Reality is God is because this is how the concept is understood in theology. Should the scholars of geology define the language used by mathematicians? Of course not.
The Ultimate Reality is That which is Ultimately Real. The realest reality. The Truest Reality.
It is true by itself, it is not contingent on anything else to be true. It is eternally true, never not true. It is The Truth itself.
So when I say Ultimate Reality, I am really talking about what is truly real. The ground that anything real stands on.
So God absolutely does exist, there is nothing you can be more sure of. Everything else? That is theology. One thing is certain. The existence of God is a given. It is not really up for debate. In fact, to say that God doesn't exist is self defeating and patently foolish. I am not saying these things because of strong feeling, personal opinion, or arrogance... I am saying this because it is absolutely true. Really though, God is absolutely True, and that is the point.
Now, if you could believe that.
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@Outplayz
The Ultimate Reality is whatever The Ultimate Reality is. This is to contrast with The Ultimate Reality is what I can make sense to be that.
You say that doesn't make sense?
I am not playing word games.
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@secularmerlin
If you can't say that objectively there is subjective meaning than there is no meaning at all. That is what you are saying.
How do you know the universe would keep existing if there was no meaning?
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