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@secularmerlin
So all I have to do to be right is to remain stubbornly in denial of what everyone else says and remain cocksure of myself?
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@disgusted
Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense to someone else.
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@janesix
2 plus 3 equals 5 which is how many toes I have on my right foot.
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First piece of evidence is understanding what God means.
The Ultimate Reality
The Supreme Being
The Truth
If you can not see how this One True God exists simply by recognizing its name, there are a number of proofs that are contingent on accepting this definition.
If you can't accept this definition, you get nothing else.
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@Stephen
I already gave you an answer.
Images are not to be worshipped or bowed down to, and that is actually what it says in context.
This is the full divine statement that you are taking out of context.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thingthat is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
It is not a total prohibition against making scupltures and pictures. Jews themselves make graven images, with certain guidelines of course. Your iconoclast position doesn't carry any weight, it is wrong.
What is actually being said here is to not serve false gods or idols, which back then and even today take the form graven images or likenesses.
You ignore the argument I presented you from the very beginning while arrogantly calling Moses stupid. And claiming to know better than every authority that makes you wrong.
Why do you think I get the impression you don't listen?
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@secularmerlin
I disagree. All words have arbitrary definitions. Language evolves over time as popular usage changes and popular usage is all that a definition describes.
I don't understand what riding hippos across the great plains has to do with this topic. Clearly we are talking about canned olives.
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@Stephen
I'm pretty sure I brought the whole Moses serpent thing to you in another topic. You really wonder if I read the verse?
I also addressed your question.
The fiery serpent was never intended to be worshipped. When people started worshipping it, it was destroyed.
You know, the last dying wish of Buddha was that people didn't worship him as a god, and it wasn't too long after that we had people building temples around his toenails.
People do stupid stuff. What?
But Moses never worshipped a snake god, and the staff was never intended to be served as a god. Clearly your understanding is off. You must think Moses was awfully stupid or something to think he would be so careless as to make all these idols after the commandment was given to not make them.
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@EtrnlVw
Can't really dispute any of that.
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@EtrnlVw
Ibthink what janesix is trying to say is that it is unreasonable to expect someone to believe someone else simply because say they are a witness to someone.
Like, I can believe someone is being honest about believing what they say, but that doesn't always mean I believe what they say.
We don't always see things as they really are, you know?
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@janesix
I disagree wholeheartedly. There is nothing more reasonable to believe than the existence of The Truth.
Claims about The Truth are more up for debate.
Trolltop isn't worth debating with because he is here to argue mindlessly, not reason. He doesn't think "Supreme Being" means The Truth even though it can plainly be proven...
Supreme - Highest in rank or authority.
Being - Existence
What is the existence with highest rank or authority? THE ULTIMATE REALITY. Which, despite the willful ignorance of trolltop, is what theology teaches God is. The Truth.
He won't formally debate this though because he knows his entire case is personal arbitrariness.
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@Goldtop
Your lack of comprehension skills is not proof that you are right.
I willl happily destroy you in a debate if you would issue the challenge.
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@Stephen
I do not have pictures at all in my home, not even of relatives. I don't use facebook. At the same time, there are a lot of things I do that are personal choices that I wouldn't burden other people with. For example, I am a vegetarian. None of these things are really a matter of the faith. I digress, it's not important.
I do not respect the book of Mormon as scripture. I agree with Samuel Clemins. Chloroform in print. I say that because I have read it.
Butback to what we are really talking about.. if the fiery serpent on a pole is the god of Moses, why did God tell Moses to make it? The people were not told to worship the serpent, but to look at it. Why was this relic destroyed? Because people were worshipping it, which was not its intention.
So tell me what makes more sense. Your interpretation which pretty much is that either Moses was an idiot who was inconsistent with what you interpret the commandment about idolatry to mean, and/or someone who worshipped a snake god...
Or
That you are wrong.
I think it is far more likely that you are wrong about something.
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@PGA2.0
If you say nothing other than "Truth" they mock you, and I think that really cuts through all their bs.
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@Stephen
Lets stick to this one subject, and we might get somewhere.
Your explanation is wrong. It says very clearly in the texts that people were performing abomination with the staff. They were worshipping it as an idol. It was never intended to be an idol before God. Moses didn't worship a serpent god.
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@Stephen
Common among fools.very common method of responding to posts
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@Goldtop
I see you have nothing to add to this topic.
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@Goldtop
It would be redundant. Challenge me to a debate if you are so confident in your fallacies.
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@Goldtop
I was demonstrating that no 2 atoms are truly the same.
I know what isotopes are.
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@Stephen
Everytime you ask a question, you ask 4 others before the first one is answered.
You behave like an ambush journalist. You aren't being sincere.
I'm not playing your stupid game.
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@Stephen
If you break up my posts like that, I will not read it. I am on a cell phone, and I am far too busy to waste my time dealing with your formatting while addressing every one of your fallacies.
If you have something to say to me, respond to my whole post at once. I do not respect your method of post dissemination, I see it as a reflection of your inability to truly listen. I would be willing to bet that you interrupt people when they talk.
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@Goldtop
Ignoring what makes you wrong does not make you right.
You are very wrong.
And I'm not really a dictionary preacher, but few things demonstrate the arbitrariness of the atheist more than the dictionary.
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@Goldtop
If you feel so sure that I'm lying, challenge me to a debate and be humbled.
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@Stephen
You are not open to the possibility that your interpretations are faulty, even if no authority on these scriptures. were to tell you otherwise.
You are simply throwing as much garbage at the wall as you can from the skeptics annotated bible as you can. You are not really trying to learn. You already think you know.
That is why engaging you is a waste of time. You don't really know whatbyoubare talking about and you aren't really interested in learning.
And I personally find what you are doing to be insulting.
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@secularmerlin
Since physics is the study of causality and objects that exist dependent on an observer have an effect on causality, couldn't you say that these observer dependent objects are physical?
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@Castin
I would tell you that words are not arbitrarily defined, and this is not how Satan is understood in theology.
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"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
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@Stephen
Your questions will never end, because you don't really accept what the faith is about. You argue over letter issues when Christianity is religion of the spirit. No matter how many questions of yours that are answered, they will never be enough.
You don't ask because you intend to be wrong. You ask questions because you are sure you are right.
The scriptures themselves give instructions on how to handle such as you when they say,
"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."
My religion is Truth worship. Truth worship is the religion of Christianity. You do not know my faith, nor can you as long as you believe you know it is false. You remain unteachable. It is my hope that you one day come to understand what the faith is really about that you come to repentence and acknowledgment of The Truth.
Your questions will never end, and you have had several answered allready. You don't ever accept the answers you are given because you think you know better. What this tells me is that you aren't really interested in learning, but instead you are playing a game of rhetoric.
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@PGA2.0
@disgusted
The funny thing about proof is that if someone rejects all evidence, they can say "There is no proof!" And not be lying because as as long as their mind hasn't been changed, it cannot be said that something had been provennto them.
In other words, proof is subjective. If someone refuses to change their mind, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, they can simply arbitrarily reject all of it and laugh like a madman going, "Ah ha! There is no proof!"
Atheists love to use this language game because they don't believe in truth. They have embraced arbitrariness. They don't believe anything they say, they say only what they think might sound convincing to some, because their goal is to subvert the hearers into being ad foolish as they are.
Atheists don't believe in the truth. There is no reasoning with the unteasonable. It's a heart issue. If they don't love the truth, as the scriptures say, they will be cursed with strong delusion.
They bring it on to themselves. Of course, they will be forgiven if they turn away from their wickedness, but many of them get off on their wickedness. They don't understand that it is the root of their suffering.
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@secularmerlin
Nothing has value. Everything is meaningless.
You don't think things are at least worth what they are?
What is value?
It's all arbitrary vapidness, eh?
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@Castin
Because that is what God means. The Ultimate Reality.
Is it really that strange? Look around and it isn't too hard to see that this is not the most important thing in people's lives. Even people who claim to love the truth have their love polluted by what they can get out of it. Truth in relation to how it satisfies the lusts of the mind and flesh.
I am not making an innovation, this is how God is understood in theology.
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@disgusted
All you got are straw men. You are deserving of mockery.
Ignoring what makes you wrong doesn't make you right.
The concept of God with a capital "G" in Chinese is The Tao.
The concept of god with a lower case "g" in Chinese is shen.
I already explaines this was an English problem. You don't have this problem in every language.
Like in Arabic
Big G God = Allah
Little g god = illah
Your argument is simply being ignorant and sticking to your guns.
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@disgusted
Ignoring what makes you wrong doesn't make you right, clown shoes.
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The only atheist argument is to turn God into god.
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@Stephen
The 10 commandments are graven on to stone.
It says at the beginning that we were all created in God's image. Even Jesus is called The Most Perfect Image in scripture. In fact, Jesus even says "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
The point is that we as created beings have our relationship with God in creation through the medium of creation as we are created beings. But we do not serve the creature, rather the creator.
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thingthat is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"
The point is not that we shouldn't make statues and pictures, but we shouldn't bow and serve them. Otherwise, why are there statues in the temple even? At the time of Moses with the serpent and the cherubim on the ark?
Besides that, even today Jews do make statues, though they do have rules they follow.
So no, iconoclasm is a heresy for good reason, and as I said, I myself would have been considered an iconoclast at some point. I realized I was in error, and my position changed.
That said, I still have an aversion to statues and pictures. I don't have any in my home.
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@drafterman
The Truth is the truth in the truest sense of what that means. I never said that The Truth is not the same as the truth, I said the truth is not the same as a truth.
It's the difference between a relative truth and the eternal truth. The difference between contingent reality and the reality that all is contingent on.
So if you'd like to reformulate your questions with the understanding that I mean exactly what I am saying instead of you interpreting "The Truth" to mean something other than the truth.
You act like I'm speaking in code, but what I am saying is and has always been very simple and lucid. I have made plain everything I am saying.
Don't kid yourself. Your debate is against God, not me. I am not representing a position of my own, I am representing one thing, and one thing only. The Truth. You can't tell the difference between me and The Truth. Making me wrong is no feat at all. I will openly tell you that I am wrong. Making me wrong is a waste of time.
Though I may be wrong, God is right, and the one you are arguing against is God, not me. I am not your mediator. I can't think for you. Don't make this about me. I only say one thing...
THE TRUTH. Yes, I mean The Ultimate Reality when I say that, and you are adopting a foolish position if you take that to be anything other than what it is, and deny the clear and manifest authority and power it has over EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS AND IS REAL.
and you argue with that. It's ridiculous. I can't make it any clearer. When I say The Truth, I mean The Truth in the truest sense of what that means.
So wiping me away, and everything having to do with me...
What is your problem with The Truth?
It's the difference between a relative truth and the eternal truth. The difference between contingent reality and the reality that all is contingent on.
So if you'd like to reformulate your questions with the understanding that I mean exactly what I am saying instead of you interpreting "The Truth" to mean something other than the truth.
You act like I'm speaking in code, but what I am saying is and has always been very simple and lucid. I have made plain everything I am saying.
Don't kid yourself. Your debate is against God, not me. I am not representing a position of my own, I am representing one thing, and one thing only. The Truth. You can't tell the difference between me and The Truth. Making me wrong is no feat at all. I will openly tell you that I am wrong. Making me wrong is a waste of time.
Though I may be wrong, God is right, and the one you are arguing against is God, not me. I am not your mediator. I can't think for you. Don't make this about me. I only say one thing...
THE TRUTH. Yes, I mean The Ultimate Reality when I say that, and you are adopting a foolish position if you take that to be anything other than what it is, and deny the clear and manifest authority and power it has over EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS AND IS REAL.
and you argue with that. It's ridiculous. I can't make it any clearer. When I say The Truth, I mean The Truth in the truest sense of what that means.
So wiping me away, and everything having to do with me...
What is your problem with The Truth?
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@drafterman
You don't believe the "bare assertion" that if something doesn't exist in truth is is nonexistent.
You are using the type of argument that only makes sense if you take the word "truth" as being interchangeable with anything else. You talk to me as if you don't understand what I'm saying.
You lack good sense. My choice of words are not arbitrary. They have meaning. If something doesn't truly exist, it is non existent. This is not an extraordinary statement, and neither is anything else I have been saying.
And we have talked at great length before, so I can plainly see that you lack good sense. I think you are delusional, and it is because you don't love the truth. You are, after all, even now, disputing the obvious. What is there to explain? You want me to keep talking so you can trap me in my words.
And when it comes right down to it, neither of you God deniers are really debating against me, you are debating against God. It should be obvious. I am not presenting myself, I am presenting The Truth.
What it comes down to is that this is a heart issue, and I am not going to be able to help you through this. The only thing that will get you through this is God, and that will only happen if you want it. You don't want it, so you get nothing. You want miracles. You will get none, you will only get a warning.
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@drafterman
I won't be able to convince you of anything, it appears to me that you lack good sense.
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How deaf and blind do you have to be in order to argue against The Ultimate Reality?
These are truly a lost and superstitious people.
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