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@drafterman
Everybody knows that God exists. Not everybody recognizes that as God.
It is written in the hearts of all, and that is even in scripture. Romans 1
Because, as I said. Everyone innately knows there is truth, even if they don't know The Truth is God.
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And for the record, my position has NEVER been that all God deniers and atheists are dishonest. My position has always been that they are theologically ignorant, superstitious due to a poor understanding of the language involved, or fooled by arguments that are contingent on making God something other than what God means, The Ultimate Reality. Certainly there are some atheists that simply don't like the way things are and would rather replace it with fantasy. God knows who those ones are, not me.
No, my position has always been that atheists are ignorant, which is a great deal more charitable than believing they actually understand that their position is "The Truth is a lie! Prove to me that it is true that there is truth! Arbitrary! Arbitrary! Reality is what I can get away with!"
If I really took atheists as understanding what they are saying, why would I even debate them? To inflate my ego? To be smug? I mean, when someone who doesn't believe in truth demands evidence, it is out of pretense because they don't even believe in evidence. They don't believe in The Truth, they believe in personal whim. An arbitrary sense of personal aesthetics.
No, I'd have a lot more fun ridiculing people for adopting a position that is obviously really really stupid. I could after all do what many of these people do and make the really really stupid position a matter of their identity, which would make them really really stupid, instead of potentially smart people with really stupid beliefs. I don't do that. And even if someone is really really stupid, it is not right to make fun of the mentally deficient.
But it is not my desire to tear people down and engage in petty bickering or the exvhanging of insults. My desire is to edify, and maybe even reveal something... that people will even deny The Truth to avoid God.
The 3 poisons that lead to suffering are ignorance, attachment, and aversion. No where is this more obvious than when people persist in denying God even when God is defined as that which must by definition be true... The Ultimate Reality.
So all things considered, I do my best. I hope The Truth shines through, despite my shortcomings.
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My parents had a policy of not lying to their kids. They also taught us to think for ourselves and to love learning.
If they would have lied to me about Santa Claus, it would have likely undermined the more difficult but true things they tried to pass on.
Interesting thing to think about...
If you are a bad kid who is also poor, a lump of coal isn't really that bad of a gift as it works as fuel for the furnace in the cold winter.
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@mustardness
It seems to me that you are the one with ego problems. You are even poo pooing me away as insignificant.
I'd be surprised if there was a single person here who doesn't see through your carnival act.
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@drafterman
I never claimed that being charitable was a matter of my identity.
The Truth is not going to be diminished by my or anyone elses shortcomings.
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@drafterman
Well, that is what it looks like to me.
Are you going to show me charity?
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@drafterman
Surely we can ALL do better.
Everybody knows that there is truth.
The Truth is my God.
I would no more tell my child that it denying The Truth is valid than to say that is good for them to use drugs.
So how am I being uncharitable for refusing to say that good is bad and bad is good?
You say you don't believe in The Truth, so it stands to reason that your understanding of charity is based on arbitrariness. You don't even believe in charity yourself, so wgat this amounts to is you trying to lord a double standard over me. I think that is plain to see.
But as I have repeatedly said, charity is a grace given, not an entitlement. I am not obligated to be nice to you or anyone. I choose to be, and I'm not going to let you trick me into mocking you so that you can turn it around and use it to accuse me... and believe me, it wouldn't work because nobody here probably cares if I were to put on the war paint and treated my persecuters mercilessly.
But I won't, because whetger you can understand it or not, I love you and want what is best for you. It is not my intent to shatter you to pieces. I want you to find the loving embrace of God.
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@drafterman
You can do better than this.
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@drafterman
I don't claim to be better than anyone, which is why you look insecure to me.
And to be frank, I don't really value your opinion on this, because it is obvious your intent isn't to be edifying, but to tear me down.
Sounds like politics.
And I said that calling people names is not a charitable thing to do, not that I am charitable. So yes, seasoning my words with salt is something that I actively do. I'm sure you'd love for me to be a jerk so you could lord it over me and try to tear me down, which is whatnthis is about.
But I am not trying to tear you down. I want everyone to be built up in their relationship with The Truth.
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@secularmerlin
So in other words, you are saying that impermanence is The Ultimate Truth?
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@Castin
Debate isn't about truth for a lot of people either, but that is part of the reason I am here. I'm a one trick pony.
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@drafterman
I don't think saying "if you want to" assumes anything about your motivations. Denying a crackhead their fix might not seem like love to the crackhead, but that doesn't mean that the one who isn't giving them their drugs is uncharitable. I'm not going to lie to someone and say that denying The Truth is a valid position.
There is a world of difference between denying The Truth and denying what people attribute to The Truth. If you deny The Truth, you have clearly adopted a loony toons position, and it would be more uncharitable to lie and say this is valid than it would to rebuke it.
And really, this is all I've ever been doing. This is literally the only reason I'm even here. To point to The Truth. I could be mean if I wanted to, and believe me, it would be a lot more fun for me if I started making fun of people. However, I am not here for my own amusement. I am here to edify. My message is not complicated. A child can understand it, yet someone could spend the rest of their lives meditating on it.
The Truth
Very simple
And I certainly hope for the enlightenment of even those who despise me without a cause.
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@secularmerlin
I said "if"
Also the scientific method is a way of obtaining knowledge. The Ultimate Reality is by definition greater than knowledge.
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@secularmerlin
Not at all, Ibthink it is incredibly silly that you don't believe in The Truth while simultaniously claiming to believe in reality.
I think you don't understand what you are saying.
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@drafterman
Well, if you want to use it as an excuse to hate me, go ahead. I am unrepentant.
And I certainly don't hate you, but I'm not going to entertain the idea that The Truth doesn't exist.
You know, any more than I would entertain the idea that smoking crack was a good idea to my child.
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@drafterman
Well, I don't think you trying to tear me down for a perceived lack of charity on my part is very charitable, but hey.
I can't say I'm one to take a bite out a turd sandwich and say "yum".
Cry more
I can't say I'm one to take a bite out a turd sandwich and say "yum".
Cry more
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@drafterman
One who denies The Truth has embraced arbitrariness, and for me to entertain that would in itself be an embrace of arbitrariness. Charity rejoices in The Truth, not wickedness.
No, it would not be charitable for me to encourage someone to be arbitrary.
I certainly will not be guilted into condoning the doctrines of devils for the sake of charity.
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@drafterman
Denial of The Truth is not a position worthy of consideration, it is blasphemy against The Holy Spirit, and truly an abominable position to hold.
Really, anyone who holds such a position is deserving of mockery for even entertaining such foolishness.
I certainly couldn't take such a position seriously, it is self defeating.
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@EtrnlVw
I can't help but think you are accusing me of calling someone deluded. I say this because of an offense you took when I stated something that was not intended to be an accusation against anyone.
The first misunderstanding was when you seemed to me to be offended at the idea that there is a hell. This was reaction against me expressing the belief that we all likely deserve hell even if that is not what we get.
The second misunderstanding, was when I was attempting to show an example of hell here on Earth, that is, "those who receive not the love of the truth are cursed with strong delusion" which, besides being a statement of the obvious and possibly redundant, is actually a quote from scripture...
My implication here was not that I was judging anyone to be deluded, but that if anyone, regardless of who they are, embraces delusion over the truth, they are likely to suffer turmoil in this world.
And I sincerely believe this, which is why my only real position is The Truth. I am not here to tear anyone down or condemn. It is my intent to preach the good news of keeping it real.
Something which, you know, I think actually makes debate edifying.
So no, if I am being accused of calling people deluded, that is simply not the case, I am quoting the scripture that says....
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"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and byour gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work."
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And to those who are not interested in such things as scripture, religion, and all that... let me translate that into something that anyone who is decent can agree with. Get yourself out of the way, check your pride at the door, because The Truth is what saves you, not wishful thinking or vain imagination. YOU ARE NOT GOD. Keep it real.
Much love to you all, and know that it was never my intention to offend.
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@EtrnlVw
Maybe everyone is guilty of sin, and deserves hell.
As I said, just because that is what we deserve doesn't mean that is what we get. What is so controversial about this statement?
What is controversial here is the very concept of hell, that is what it looks like to me.
Truly, anyone who is aware of their own sin would be offended at hell if they listen to the devil, who condemns them, giving them no hope. The Holy Spirit convicts, and leads the convicted into repentance.
I know that all fall short of the glory of God. I am not puffing myself up at all, if I get anything good, it is an act of mercy and charity. My righteousness is filthy rags.
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@EtrnlVw
I'm only stating the obvious. Maybe you are reading too much into it.
There are repercussions for our actions. What is so controversial about this? People who live in fantasy candy land tend to suffer mental illness. Nothing new there.
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@secularmerlin
I am not making a claim either way. You are just as guilty of making an argument from ignorance if you say that reality doesn't have agency if you don't observe anything that resembles that.
But you say you have no reason to believe. So who is trying to convince you of this?
You are the one who is arguing superstitions with me. All I have told you is that God means The Ultimate Reality, and my religion is to abide in The Truth. This is certainly a good thing.
You have a problem accepting what I believe, and you are trying to get me to go along with your superstitions so you can justify to yourself a lack of belief in God.
I know it must be mind boggling, but I don't believe God is a bearded dude in the clouds. You are peatering me with your baggage even though all your relevent questions would be answered simply by accepting that The Ultimate Reality is my God. Indeed, this is your God too, whether or not you believe or acknowledge.
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@secularmerlin
There is no reality without Ultimate Reality, and this is not a tautology. Your "tautology" assertion is not an argument. When you keep doing things like say "god" instead of "God" until I rebuke you several times, or in the current case say "reality" instead of "The Ultimate Reality", it leads me to believe that you are not engaging me honestly. I would appreciate if you respected what it is I am talking about. Your mistake in this case is the same as before in that God is to god what Ultimate Reality is to reality.
Your observation that we can't really know God is correct, but who is telling you otherwise? This observation is backed by sound theology and even scripture. In other words, you are only agreeing with what is accepted.
If you want an objectively true statement, it is better to come to terms with reality than to knowingly prefer delusion. The God I speak of is simply reality free of all corruption it is Perfect Reality.
And it should be obvious that conceptions of God are limitations imposed on God, limitations that can at most be true, but not Ultimately True.
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@secularmerlin
You say the universe doesn't appear to display agency, but I say it is just as reasonable to believe that it does. I think it qould make more sense for you to say that you don't know if it has agency or not than to affirm a belief either. way. After all, two people looking at the same evidence can come to different conclusions about this.
I have never made this an issue, it seems important to you.
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@secularmerlin
Not just reality, The Ultimate Reality.
The fact that you have an experience at all shows that there is some form of existence. There is some form of reality. It can plainly be observed by everyone through experience that there are things that are not real or illusory. The Ultimate Reality is reality in the truest sense. Reality with no illusion or unreality.
Do you see why this distinction of "Ultimate" Reality is important?
You don't see The Ultimate Reality as being God, but this clearly has a greater influence over your life than anything else. There is no reality without God.
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@secularmerlin
How do you know that reality isn't what dictates what happens in reality?
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@secularmerlin
Omnipotence means "all influence/force/power"
So what that means is that God literally does everything, even the things you haughtily attribute to yourself.
Because as I said, there is an entire universe of physics weighing down to make you do what you do.
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@Paul
Who said anything about being dead?
I'm saying that if you are going to wage war against reality in this life, you are going to suffer your own hell in this life.
So it is best to keep it real.
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@drafterman
Charity is not an entitlement, otherwise it wouldn't be charity.
I am being honest with you. You look insecure to me. It really doesn't matter to me whether you think I am being charitable or not. I will be honest with you, and sometimes true words are not kind words.
And I do make a very conscious effort to not be mean. Imagine for a second that I truly believe the position I argue for. That my God is The Truth. What would do you imagine people who deny my God look like from my perspective?
If you could put yourself in my position for a moment, I'm sure you are imaginitive enough to see that I have to practice a great deal of restraint. I am, after all, debating people for sometimes many pages in a row about whether or not The Truth exists.
I don't think it takes a particularly brilliant person to understand how that looks from my perspective.
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@drafterman
Well, thats like, just your opinion, man.
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@drafterman
Pardon me if I interpret what you are saying as insecurity.
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@drafterman
It might not seem that way. I am sure I have room for improvement.
It would not be charitable for me to make declarations about my charity.
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@secularmerlin
So if thinking is meaningless, is it important to ask if God thinks?
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@secularmerlin
I'm not saying reality thinks or not. I am saying that it is entirely reasonable based on observation to say that any thinking you or anyone else does is in fact a product of physics.
So if this is the case, I could just as easily claim that I don't observe anything that resembles thinking in humanity.
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@secularmerlin
Who is to say that you don't simply react to everything? Maybe you aren't any different than these things you see as simply reacting. How can you say reality doesn't think? Maybe you can't see how it thinks.
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@secularmerlin
You say that reality doesn't give any indication of thinking. How are you any different? You are a product of physics right? Who is to say that your thoughts aren't simply determined by causality? How is your assessment of what constitutes thinking any more a than a pretention of your own exceptionalism?
You keep saying tautology, tautology, but I don't think you parroting that word is an argument. In fact, I woukd say that you repeating that argument is in itself a tautology or "needless repetition of an idea, statement, or word"
See, your repitition actually is a tautology. I don't believe my argument is a tautology.
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@secularmerlin
You have hit the brick wall with God. It is stupidnto question whether The Ultimate Reality exists.
In fact, you can be more certain that this exists than even the existence of yourself. To deny God is not reasonable. Being uncertain about the existence of God is unreasonable.
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@secularmerlin
We are just going in circles. You keep asking me the same questions over and over again. This is a waste of time.
I get it. You are in an epistemological black hole. I am not capable of helping you out of it.
What more can I say? I think you are playing stupid, and I am bored. If you are going to embrace solipsism, why bother talking to people? Go lock yourself in a closet and talk to yourself or something. You'll likely get more out of doing that than talking to me or anyone else.
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@secularmerlin
I already gave my answer to the question posed in the OP.
It's fundamentally a question that stems from a misunderstanding of what omnipotence means.
Your questions will never end, and they are truly mindless questions. Questions that are irrelevant to this topic as well. My beliefs are not what this topic is about.
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@mustardness
If I have ego problems, why are you trying to start a religion?
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@EtrnlVw
Those who receive not a love of The Truth are cursed with strong delusion.
People who are strongly deluded tend to suffer. This is an observable fact.
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@Stephen
I am certain that everyone here does not see me as being inconsistent or contradictory, so you are not stating a fact. Your presumption that everyone sees as you do is haughtiness.
It stands to reason that someone whose stated position is that "The Truth does not exist" would be an arbitrary and haughty individual.
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@Stephen
What makes you think I'm going to give you a different answer if you aren't going to adjust your question based on what I tell you?
You are not being reasonable towards me.
If you are really trying to understand theology, you shouldn't presume to understand it.
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@secularmerlin
You couldn't tell me what is ultimately real, who could?
You are demanding a grand unified theorem, and I would tell you that even a grand unified theorem wouldn't even really be it.
Whatever The Ultimate Reality Is, that is what it is. Nobody can tell you what it is.
Yet, The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God.
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@secularmerlin
There isn't anything to understand. Your questions are absurd and possibly non sequiturs.
Why would you ask me if reality has emotion? What does that even mean? The question doesn't even make sense to me. What about reality makes you think of emotion?
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@mustardness
You have Toyotas as part of your trinity. A Rav 4?
You admitted you are trying to start your own religion.
You are pretty much in clown territory at this moment. Any pretense you have of being the rational one here is going to fall flat. You're a wannabe wizard and jokester.
What am I telling you and everyone I talk to?
Keep it real.
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@ethang5
Clanging cymbals
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@Stephen
If you go around saying, "It is the truth that the truth doesn't exist! Prove to me that it is true that there is truth! The truth is a lie!", not only are you never right, but you aren't even really obligated to be taken seriously. This is clearly the loony toons madhouse position.
And yes, when you deny my God, The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, that is exactly what you are doing. You are adopting the funny farm position.
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