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@ludofl3x
Because The Ultimate Reality was called God before it was called anything else.
It is having a hang up over this that is the novelty. Churches, prayers, and singing are not what make God who He Is.
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@ludofl3x
The purpose of tradition is to pass something down to the next generation. To prepare a heart for revelation.
The Ultimate Reality is God, and religion has nothing to do with it. Holy Tradition is what was passed down to us from ancient times, it is the faith itself. Then there are customs, which are cultural. To an outsider, it isn't always apparent what is Holy Tradition and what are cultural customs.
The Ultimate Reality has always been God. Even the name that God gave to Moses is simply an ancient way of declaring God as The Ultimate Reality. Ancient translations make this even clearer, the Greek Septuigant(oldest surviving text of the Pentateuch) translates this name as "ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which translated into English sometimes as "I AM the Existing One"
So for thousands of years, we have always understood God as being Reality as it truly is.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Prayer strengthens ones soul.So Ya soulie thing can be mindful of God. ( well Duh )I mean. Of course it does right?Straight out Commonsense FULL STOPNo but Moe Moe.Hey Moe Moe.When does anything " surrounding " your god and or your religion,kinda gather like ummmmmmm " NORMAL "You know what i mean Pac Moe ?When does something " normal " / easy to comprehend surrounding god happen, followed byyyyyyyyyyy, Something normal surrounding god happen. ?
Not really sure what you are asking.
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@ethang5
You won't convince me, but by all means go with what you have faith in. I know scripture says love looks like.
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@zedvictor4
It doesn't, which is why I am asking why you feel the need to mention this things.
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Though I am a Christian, these are things that were historically a big stumbling block for me.
1. Antinomianism among so called Christians. People who call themselves Christians but not only have no work to show for it, but take Christ as a get out of hell free card and a license to be sanctimonious about whatever wickedness it is they practice. Basically, the so called Christian who is indistinguishable from the pagan in their society. Such a Christian has nothing to offer, and makes Christianity as a whole look like a joke. These are the people who overemphasize liberty and freedom from religious laws and such. All the while, praising Jesus for allowing them to live like the self professed atheist! I think these people are assholes.
2. Outward appearances. I think this one should be obvious. Not only do you expect me to believe a man is God, which is obviously blasphemous, but you expect me to believe in all these seemingly impossible miracles as well? How can I possibly believe these seemingly unknowable things? Jesus said the burden is light, but to sincerely believe all these extraordinary things is a very heavy burden to someone who cares about what is true. It all sounds crazy. It seems incredibly unreasonable to expect someone believe these things on faith. How can I have faith in these things?
In my life, these two things were the biggest stumbling blocks for me. I know they are common stumbling blocks as well. By the grace of God, I still managed to find Christ, and now I find myself in the opposite position. I could not sincerely deny Christ, who I have come to know. Where as before I could not find faith, today my faith is too strong to break. I cannot deny my Lord and my God.
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@zedvictor4
And why do you feel the need to say these things are not required?
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@zedvictor4
Yes, I can see that you have embraced relativism. A house built on sand.
Recognizing the nature of created things, but not seeing the Truth that holds it all together.
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There is no reasonable doubt concerning the existence of God.
If The Ultimate Reality doesn't exist, nothing is ultimately real.
If nothing is ultimately real, there is no reality.
This is nihilism in the purest sense.
It is also self defeating and patently idiotic.
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@zedvictor4
It is that type of nihilistic mentality, rendering all statements as being equally valid, that undermines the very expression of truth itself.
I am not stating an opinion, I am speaking of what I know. The Ultimate Reality is God, and denial of this God is nihilism.
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@ethang5
Be careful, you might make him meaner with your argument. He might reject kindness as useless. Lol
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I have spent many years loving people who may never come to The Truth. It is not my place to be concerned with outcomes. My job is simply to throw seeds around and hope that some of it lands on fertile ground. I am a wayfarer, aa wanderer in this strange land.
I'm Johnny Appleseed ova here
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@ethang5
I don't think think you should make excuses for your inability to present a better example. The wickedness of the person you are talking to is not a license to respond in a way that is unbecoming of the example we are supposed to set.
I am not so deluded as to think that I can save anyone, or reveal anything to a person. I am not The Holy Spirit. What I do know is that love is long suffering, and indeed it is a lot harder to love your enemies, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who despitefully use and persecute you than it is to make sport of a fool.
Love is not easy. No one ever said it was. But I know "the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned". That is what we are called to do.
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@ethang5
I suppose if it helps people to accept that The Word begotten of God, and the Spirit which proceeds from God can all be fully God and One with God, it is all good.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it explains The Trinity though, maybe just a certain aspect of The Trinity that is hard to wrap the head around. Namely, that 3 can be 1.
I can't fully appreciate the mathematics.
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Science and religion is a false dichotomy.
Besides, there are many Orthodox Christian doctors. Even saints who were doctors.
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I know that sincere prayer strengthens the soul to be mindful of God and to better walk in His Way.
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@Salixes
You have no good reason to accuse me of deceit. You simply are dissmissing me outright.
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@n8nrgmi
how do you view the following?"The first ontological argument in the Western Christian tradition was proposed by Anselm of Canterbury in his 1078 work Proslogion. Anselm defined God as "a being than which no greater can be conceived", and argued that this being must exist in the mind, even in the mind of the person who denies the existence of God."your ultimate reality talk reminds me of the above kind of thinking.
The Ultimate Reality is not contingent on the mind, rather, the mind is contingent on The Ultimate Reality.
That is my thought.
The west embraced a scholastic approach to theology, which is why arguments such as these gained prevalence after the schism. Compare that to the Eastern approach of hesychism.
In the west, a theologian is someone who is educated. In the east, a theologian is someone who prays. The west has more of an outward focus, and an undue emphasis on reason. The east understands that the pure in heart see God, and that a good education alone is not sufficient.
It is important to note that we also take education very seriously, but we understand that the faith is moreso revealed than come to as a logical conclusion.
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@Tradesecret
I created a topic for this subject, you can bring up your points there.
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@Salixes
What is there to refute? If I were to answer you according to your folly I would only be reinforcing your superstitions, which would make a fool of both of us.
You'd have to forget everything you think you know, and be taught afresh. The fact is, you don't understand my faith. That being the case, you are incapable of making an effective argument against it. You can only really speak to people who are in the same boat as you. That is, those who don't really understand the faith to begin with.
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@Tradesecret
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@ethang5
I understand where he is coming from. He doesn't know any better. Besides, his impression of Christianity is likely sculpted by the pharisitical assholes around him who respond to him in a manner indistinguishable from the pagan.
People are rarely converted by arguments. Love is the weapon of a Christian.
It's hard to love people. It requires self sacrifice.
Oh how I would love to mercilessly mock people! But I know that I must become less so that Christ be magnified in me.
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@Tradesecret
The Orthodox Catholic Church is not a denomination. I recently created a topic on this. We can discuss that there.
The doctrinal formulations of the church were all originally written in Greek. All the ecumenical councils before the schism of Rome took place in the east.
Is it really so hard to believe that western Christianity is corrupt?
God bless you all for trying, but the historical church never ceased to be, and we certainly pray for reunion. The ecclesiastical anarchy of western Christianity is a legitimite threat to keeping the integrity of the faith.
Certainly, Jesus Christ is a person that we relate to. If you don't recognize who God is though, your faith can't be anything other than blind. We know the God we worship.
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@Salixes
If you listen to what I say, the only Orthodox Christian around here, it should be apparent that what we believe in no way resembles your caricature of it.
It makes more sense to understand what we believe before trying to refute it.
You don't understand our faith.
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@Salixes
Atheism has nothing to offer. You are simply spreading ignorance and encouraging the marginalization of my people who have suffered enough as it is in the last century.
You are very misguided. You don't understand what you are fighting.
You are very misguided. You don't understand what you are fighting.
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The idea that mathematics can explain The Trinity is somewhat preposterous.
What is The Trinity?
Worshipping God The Father in Spirit and Truth.
The Trinity is experienced as a mystery, not intellectualized.
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What does The Trinity express?
That God is One with His Word and Spirit.
God is One with His action.
That is how we can say God's Uncreated Energy is divine. That is how we can say that the grace of God is divine. That is how we can confess The Trinity as One God.
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The Ultimate Reality is not a concept. A concept cannot be The Ultimate Reality as concepts are contingent on conceptualization.
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@Tradesecret
It is also worth noting that the Greek word "Prosopon"(person) can imply the heresy of modalism, which is one of the reasons why hypostasis is preferred in expressing The Trinity.
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@Tradesecret
Reality on the other hand is a concept and not a person. Hence it is impossible to have a personal relationship with reality.
Three hypostases, One Ousia.
Understand what I am saying.
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The natural consequence of Rome's break from Orthodoxy was the reformation.
The natural consequence of protestant scholasticism is the rejection of Christianity.
Basically, the west is in a spiritual dark age. There is a nihilistic spirit guiding everything towards oblivion.
If people don't wake up, they are going to find themselves under the rule of tyrants.
Western Christendom needs to rediscover Orthodox Christianity and make a return to it. The consequences of the west's apostasy is that it has infected the entire world with communism.
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@zedvictor4
I speak of what I know. Salixes opinion is uneducated, just as yours is.
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@BrotherDThomas
To the foolish blasphemy that Christ is a serial killer...
Anathema!
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A churchless Christianity is no Christianity. Likewise, the idea that all the varying "churches" constitute branches to one tree of the church is an ahistorical concept of the church.
There is one church, and the solution to the reformation is reunion with The Orthodox Catholic Church.
The Roman church itself is unreconcilable with Orthodoxy so long as it maintains its doctrine of papal supremacy, and its alteration of the Nicean-Constantinople creed.
The Orthodox Catholic Church is the very church that holds the torch of Truth passed down from the apostles.
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Translation of OP
"I don't like the way things are, so I will create a fantasy world that conforms to my sense of aesthetics and judge reality by it."
This is how all idolaters think.
Orthodox Christianity is about accepting reality, not defying it.
Warring against reality is stupid.
Letting go and being pushed around by reality like a plastic bag in the wind isn't much different than sitting in a house as it decays all around you.
The Way is to be a co-worker with God. It isn't to fight God or perish through self neglect. That is the middle way.
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@BrotherDThomas
I do not acknowledge you the dignity of having ground to stand on. To war against reality is foolishness, and in the end you will be put to shame if you do not repent of this wickedness.
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@Salixes
You might as well blame God for the death of everything that had ever died, because the reality is that everyone dies.
And what good does it do to point the finger at reality and blame it?
It is only sane to make peace with reality. It is patently idiotic to defy reality.
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@Salixes
Because it is an extraordinary claim that there is no ultimate reality, and it is a totally unreasonable belief, the idea that you could prove such a thing without undermining your own argument is ridiculous.
Atheism towards The One True God is nihilism, and is a patently idiotic position to take. Not only does it not deserve to be considered, such a ridiculous superstition deserves to be mocked mercilessly.
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@BrotherDThomas
@Salixes
Reality cannot murder people. You are both expressing a delusional position.
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@Salixes
Do you take the subject matter seriously?
If not, the only thing that you do by mocking what you don't understand is perpetuate ignorance and superstition.
Besides that, you are joining in with those who are responsible for the genocide of dozens of millions of innocent Orthodox Christians that were killed in the last century by atheists.
If not, the only thing that you do by mocking what you don't understand is perpetuate ignorance and superstition.
Besides that, you are joining in with those who are responsible for the genocide of dozens of millions of innocent Orthodox Christians that were killed in the last century by atheists.
Much in the same way you mock us, they so did.
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@BrotherDThomas
You are talking a bunch of nonsense as usual. You are expressing a delusional position.
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@BrotherDThomas
Murder is unlawful killing.
God cannot break the law.
You are expressing a delusional position.
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@BrotherDThomas
Anyone who accuses God of murder is a blasphemer, not a Christian.
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@BrotherDThomas
I would also suggest you humble yourself and receive instruction from the Orthodox Church rather than heretics or your own private interpretations.
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@BrotherDThomas
Accusing reality of murder is stupid.
The Ultimate Reality is God.
Making peace with the way things are is making peace with God.
There will always be suffering in this world, but if people did as they should, a lot of suffering would be alleviated. The sins of humanity create much needless suffering.
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