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@drafterman
The Truth is not man made.
The Ultimate Reality is God, and certainly has more authority than either you or I.
If you deny the existence of my God, you are professing nihilism. If my God doesn't exist, nothing exists.
But God certainly exists, is everywhere present, and fills all things.
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It is fair to say that the societal damage that say, promiscuity causes is something that acts as a visible evidence as to why promiscuous behavior is immoral.
It is one thing to practice these things, it is something else even to call it good or even encourage it.
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@drafterman
But nothing to do with with "pleasing" reality or reality "judging" me
Maybe not in the way that you think. Or maybe the way that you think isn't ruled out? I don't know. But it is no strange thing. No extraordinary claim that I am making.
Of course we will all be judged by The Light of Truth, and on the last day, all darkness, deceit, delusion, falsehood will be exposed by The Light of Truth. Could you not say, based on the judgement of God's Word which is The Truth that what God's Law banishes must be displeasing to Him? The darkness flees from The Light, just as those who hate Him flee from His face.
Truth is the highest good, and evil the natural consequence of deviation from The Truth.
The way of the wicked shall perish, their faith and identity is with perishable things. Their walk blind, their mind darkened. The end of their faith is in created things. The Eternal Way is to be made divine through unity with The Uncreated Energy of God. To abide in The Eternal Way of Truth.
The very light of heaven is the same fire of hell. The purifying flame of Truth.
See, I already said that when people deny your God they aren't denying reality. They are denying that reality has the extra attributes you've assigned to it. Atheism does not imply nihilism.
My position has and has always been that the vast majority of people who think they are atheist believe in a superstitious conception of God. That being the case, the atheist position is actually a negation of gods, not God.
The Ultimate Reality is God, all other "gods" are only gods in a nominal sense.
Let it be known that The Ultimate Reality is God, and God is not like created things that have attributes. God Is what God Is. The Eternally Existing One.
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@drafterman
you say that God can be pleased. Reality is not a conscious, sentient entity. It cannot be pleased. Reality does not have the property of being able to be pleased.
Yet, making choices that align with reality essentially lead to more consistent and positive results. While making choices that disregard reality consistently leads to subversion.
This has everything to do with the relationship a child of God has with God.
Nihilism implies atheism, yes. But atheism does not imply nihilism. I am an atheist but I am not a nihilist
As our God is The Ultimate Reality, to deny our God is to profess nihilism. If you are not a nihilist, maybe you aren't really an atheist either.
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The idea that the church was taken over and corrupted after Nicea is a myth.
The Incarnation and The Trinity can not be seperated from eachother, and neither can be seperated from the gospel of salvation.
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@Stephen
The 7th Bishop of Antioch, Saint Theophilus of Antioch, who was bishop from 169 to 183 AD, before Nicea wrote...
"And these contain the pattern and type of a great mystery. For the sun is a type of God, and the moon of man. And as the sun far surpasses the moon in power and glory, so far does God surpass man. And as the sun remains ever full, never becoming less, so does God always abide perfect, being full of all power, and understanding, and wisdom, and immortality, and all good. But the moon wanes monthly, and in a manner dies, being a type of man; then it is born again, and is crescent, for a pattern of the future resurrection. In like manner also the three days which were before the luminaries, are types of the Trinity, of God, and His Word, and His wisdom. And the fourth is the type of man, who needs light, that so there may be God, the Word, wisdom, man."
A contemporary of Saint Theophilus, living on the opposite side of the Roman Empire, Saint Irenaeus of Lyons wrote...
“By the word of the Lord were the heavens established, and by his spirit all their power." Since then the Word establishes, that is to say, gives body and grants the reality of being, and the Spirit gives order and form to the diversity of the powers; rightly and fittingly is the Word called the Son, and the Spirit the Wisdom of God."
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@Stephen
Naturally, if God is The Ultimate Reality, His Word is Truth, and His Spirit is Truth....
God is One with His Word and Spirit. 3 hypostases, 1 Ousia.
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@Stephen
Why are you so passionate? Do you not have any self control?
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@Stephen
You don't have to look any further than the New Testament.
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power."
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@Dr.Franklin
Wow, that book is really inaccurate.
It attributes this saying to "Martin Luther, founder of the Baptist faith"
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@drafterman
As I said, the issue is one of paradigm.
The fact of the matter is, conceptions of God are not God.
You say I assign properties to God, but the only thing I say about God is that The Ultimate Reality is God. Everything I say about God is consistent with this. Everything else has to do with relationship to this God, and only in relation to this God. The Truth. How the children of God relate to God.
According to the way we understand things, to say there is no God is to say you are a nihilist.
"That there is no truth, that there is no absolute state of affairs—no thing-in-itself. This alone is nihilism, and of the most extreme kind."
What Nietzsche says up there is very much in line with how we understand things. Nihilism is the denial of God. Atheism is nihilism.
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@drafterman
Right, but we already have a word for that: "reality." When you create a brand new term, and make it capitalize, that indicates something special beyond that.
I did not create a brand new term, we have understood things this way for thousands of years.
But reality doesn't have "timing."
If reality did not.having timing, then you would not experience life sequentially. To say, "In God's time" is another way of saying, "It happens when it happens".
But reality doesn't have spirit or cleansing power.
Sure it does. Much in the way darkness flees from the light. Like wax before the fire, delusion is melted away by the fiery heat of Truth.
But reality doesn't require faith to understand it.
True knowledge is not intellectual assent, but an experience. Intellectualizing thanksgiving is not knowing thanksgiving, rather to know thanksgiving is to be thankful. Much in the same way, The Truth can not be known by someone who does not walk in The Way of Truth.
But you can't "invite" reality into your heart or mind. It is a a thing, not a person or entity
If your heart and mind is directed towards The Truth, quite naturally you will find that your mindfulness towards reality will sculpt and shape you.
The purer your heart, the stronger the presence of Truth is in your heart and mind.
But reality isn't a person or entity that can be "pleased" or that can "humble" a person. It cannot be killed, rise, or judge people.
Quite naturally, humble students are better than proud students. Much in the same way, those who think they know already have a hard time learning from and being purified by God. Those who approach God with the humility and reverence that a young child has towards a good parent receive a grace that cannot rest on the proud.
So there is quite the gap between "reality" and this thing you call "The Truth." There are a lot of attributes and properties in the latter not present in the former.
As I hope my response reveals to you, the discrepancy is primarily a matter of paradigm.
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@Salixes
One way to know a tree is to measure it, chop it up, count its rings, look at it under a microscope, etc.
Then there is a tree you plant. It grows. You grow with it. You live life around the tree.
Experience the tree.
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@drafterman
When I say "The Truth", I mean reality as it truly is.
We say that we are children of God, because our relationship to God is as a child learning from their father.
The languahe we use is supposed to convey a relationship. We strive to be sober minded and clear headed. To be consistent.
Being that to us, God is The Ultimate Reality, we see that making peace with our circumstances, and being thankful is the best way to glorify God. Our way is not to fight nature, or let nature overrun us, but to cooperate with it. In aligning ourselves with The Truth, we walk in The Way, which is Life.
And though we in our flesh die, having a common grave, in identifying with what is eternally real, what is unreal about us is melted away by the fire of Truth. Identifying with The Truth, we share in its eternity, and so the discipline of an Orthodox Christian is to be a living icon of The Truth.
Do you understand what I mean by Truth? What do you think?
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@Salixes
What can be said for certain is that if the universe has existence at all, it is only because The Ultimate Reality makes it so.
The Ultimate Reality is God.
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Experience is often times proof.
So your formula is rather strange.
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@drafterman
I believe you are reasonable.
So you are sayimg "The Truth" is semantically meaningless to you? In what way do you mean meaningless? Could you elaborate a little to help me understand?
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@drafterman
Then I guess that just sucks for people with even the modest amount of skepticism or critical thinking. A shame that things would be designed in such a way. Seems like if I wanted people to avoid eternal torment and that outcome depended simply on them believing I existed, I wouldn't act mysteriously. I'd act openly and obviously. I wouldn't leave any question or doubt as to my existence.
There is no legitimate question or doubt about God's existence. The question is really, "Who is God?"
The Ultimate Reality is God, and there is no reasonable doubt.
And the thing is, if you love The Truth, you don't look at the world and think, "Oh, Things are this way, but it would've been better if it was different."
This type of thinking leads to delusion. Making peace with the way things are in a great way is making peace with God.
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The world doesn't like The Truth, it prefers its idols.
That is why the world killed The Truth. The Truth became death, conquering death itself. You cannot kill The Truth. It will rise again, and on the last day all will be judged by it.
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@drafterman
Pascal is irrelevent to me, as he was part of a church which broke away from Orthodoxy over 500 years prior.
If you don't believe that The Truth is God, then you don't know what God is. I don't believe in whatever superstitious conception you have of God either.
You can't please God without faith. That is just how it is. Extreme skepticism is not a virtue, quite the contrary, it keeps you from accepting what we mean by what we teach. You have to come to God like a child, ready to be taught. If you have pride, God will humble you. If you come with humility, there is grace.
The reason the faith takes the form it does is demonstrated by my work here. I speak very plainly about the faith, and it is still not believed.
And so, all you get are parables because you won't accept the plainly spoken and lucid truth.
The plain and lucid truth is that Christianity at the core is about loving The Truth, and living it.
Because you can't accept this, all you get is parables.
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Like ronjs said, you have to be sincere. Sincerity comes with action, it isn't just a whim.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."
You have to ask. You have to seek. You have to knock.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
If you are the kind of person who thinks thst something someone did in highscool makes them a bad person 50 years later, you probably wouldn't think too much of Moses, who murdered somebody.
But we know that even murderers can be made right if they sincerely turn their life around.
There are many examples of saints who were robbers, thieves, and murderers who turned their life around. The person they ended up becoming is nothing like they were.
I myself did a lot of bad things when I was younger. Most of the time it was out of ignorance, but even then there were times when I did things I knew were wrong. I am a different person today.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Prison.I think we should start this search for God in jails / prisons.I've been leed to believe that god goes around from jail to jail revealing himself to prisoners.I don't know. it's just a hunch.
Jailhouse religion is a thing.
It is easier to find God when you are not distracted by the cares of this world. Easier when you don't have the armor of wealth protecting you from the hard blows of reality.
Interestingly enough, a monk's bedroom is called a cell. Penance? Penitentiary?
Not a coincidence.
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@drafterman
I don't doubt that, through rote repetition, I can slowly alter my own system of beliefs to be consistent with Christianity. A form of self-hypnosis if you will. It's certainly the tactic proposed by Pascal.
Oh heavens no, that has nothing to do with our practice.
First of all, you have to understand that when we say heart, we are talking about The Nous.
Then you have yo understand that The Truth is God.
The discipline has nothing to do with hypnosis or implanting ideas in the head at all for that manner, it is about SEEING CLEARLY. It is moreso about looking at the influences and passions that enslave us, and being freed from these things so that we can better live as an Icon of The Truth.
I am not using the word "truth" arbitrarily. If you don't accept that I mean exactly that, it will only be confusing as you will be asking yourself, "What truth?". I mean, The Truth itself.
And directing oneself towards The Truth creates a very real "gravity" you could say. It creates movement. But more importantly, it opens you up, as Ron was saying to God so that the cleansing power of The Holy Spirt, which is The Spirit of Truth, works in you.
If it sounds mysterious, it really is. It is something to be experienced. It is known through the experience. Just as a scientist who performs no scientific experiments is hardly a real scientist, someone whose faith is absent of works is dead. Functionally, no faith.
That is really the faith that you have to have. That God exists. That if there is a way to see God, there has to be a right way.
There is nothing unreasonable about Orthodox Christianity, there is just a lot there, and even the things we do that look strange or illogical to the uninformed observer have very real and good reasons behind them. Point being, much of what the faith is about is presented in such a way as to give the opposite impression.
Why is this? It is to protect the faith. One can not come to the faith without charity and humility. The door is shut. All you will see is a bunch of weirdos wearing funny clothes burning incense with the thought creeping in your head "I know better than this".
But if what I am saying is true, and I can only insist that it is, there is a great deal more to it than meets the eye.
It is Truth Worship. When it comes right down to it, we worship The Truth as God. Whatever one takes as a god, that effects their behavior. We recognize that The Truth is so above all other gods that they are hardly gods at all.
What we practice is not self deception. Self deception is idolatry, and it is an abominable thing to intentionally do. From that point, you are not practicing true religion, but witchcraft.
We don't practice witchcraft.
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@drafterman
Scripture has more authority than ronjs.
Not to negate what he is saying.
But this is an absurd question...
"Among the billion or so Christians, who presumably have let god into their hearts and received a response, how long, on average, did that take?"
I say that not to be disrespectful, but because it is an impossible question to answer. Ronjs gave the right answer when he said "His timing"
But I am giving you a better answer. Not better because it is more true, but better because it gives you direction.
No one here is able to know whether you sincerely seek God. That is something only you can know. What I will tell you is that the faith is revealed in practice.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God"
Orthodox Christian praxis purifies the heart. So as Jesus Himself said, "If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Without orthopraxis, one cannot truly be orthodox.
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@drafterman
God is revealed in the walk.
"without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
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@drafterman
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
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@Salixes
It is talking trash. You aren't doing anything different than those who take statistics about IQ and race to justify racism.
Correlation does not equal causation. Point being, all the variables are not being isolated. In effect, you appear to be presenting a pseudoscientific argument.
A theist is simply someone who believes in a god. Any god besides. I don't believe that the guy who worships comic books and videogames as gods is as intelligent as someone who worships The Truth as God. One is trying to escape from reality, the other is actively struggling with it.
Besides, from our worldview there is no such thing as an atheist, only self declared atheists. Atheists don't really understand concepts like God and idolatry. That is why they tend to make themselves their own god while at the same time denying all gods.
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@Salixes
It doesn't sound to me as if you have a genuinely scientific approach to this subject.
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@Salixes
The Ultimate Reality by definition can not be contingent on your thoughts.
God is everywhere present and fills all things. There is no existence that does not derive its being from God.
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Aye....
"Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
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@Salixes
All of our discipline clicks together and makes sense if you understand that what we acknowledge as God is literally reality as it truly is.
Why else search the heart for influences and passions that keep us from seeing clearly and being honest?
Our faith is about riding oneself of prelest, not embracing it.
If you knew what we actually believed, you'd realize that your crusade amounts to little more than your refusal to come to terms with reality. Our faith is about making peace with reality, and accepting it with thanksgiving.
Love God who is the way things are.
But in your dismissing, you are refusing to understand. This is not the behavior of someone who loves what is true, rather someone who prefers something else to the truth. Those who love truth have charity.
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What next?
The government is bigoted towards theives, they lock them up and take away their rights!
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In a time before modern medicine, condoms, and dental dams....
There was no ambiguity about how destructive sexual immorality is. People these days take for granted how much their riches buffer them from reality.
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@Salixes
You. assume homosexuality isn't immoral. That is the only reason you have the opinion you do.
I know it is immoral, because I understand morality.
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Pride is among the deadliest sins. The perverts don't try to hide that they are proud. They should be grateful we live in a merciful society that allows these practices. What civil rights battle is left?
Getting married in our church is not a right.
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@Salixes
I stand by everything I said and insist that I am not a bigot.
Such an accusation is ludicrous, especially to anyone who actually knows me.
The real problem here is that you think you understand something when you don't...
I am secure that I am not a bigot. It is however, clear from every single one of your posts that you hate Christians.
As I have maintained since the beginning, sexual immorality in all its forms is a symptom of idolatry, it isn't a biological thing.
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@Salixes
The only thing you are doing right now is revealing that you have no understanding.
It's not funny.
What I am saying actually means something. If you were a little more humble, you might.learn something about what God is.
I sm sorry you can't reconcile your superstitions with the fact that The Truth is God.
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@Salixes
Correlation does not equal causation.
As you admitted this, the sole purpose of this topic is pretty much for you to have a platform to talk trash.
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@ethang5
I don't believe that works. Ever. Not in the real world, not here.
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@Salixes
You don't really know what you are saying.
The Ultimate Reality is God. I challenge you to find something greater. Of course you can't.
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@PGA2.0
Certainly, salvation is a work of the grace of God, not our own.
However, being that faith without works is dead, functionally not being faith at all, we still have a work here on Earth. To abide in Christ is not to simply agree with Christ, but to conform to the image of Christ that we are all made in.
That all being the case, we are all called to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. To strive to more perfectly conform to Christ.
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@Salixes
Ethan said he knows you from DDO. He said you had a bad experience with the Roman church.
Why do you automatically think the worst? I am not an unreasonable person.
But you assume a great deal more about me than I do you. Have you ever heard the old saying that when you point the finger you have 3 pointing right back at you?
What do I know about you? That you don't understand Christianity. I am the only Orthodox Christian on this forum. I won't be here much longer. I can't really develop a relationship with you, because as I said, my time is short.
So while I am here, I suggest you take advantage of the fact and have an honest and productive conversation. I am not here to judge you, I am here to educate.
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@zedvictor4
That's pretty interesting.
There is a lot of good stuff in the Sri Granth Sahib.
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@3RU7AL
I am 5 minutes through the video.
As someone who has worked in relay for the last few years, I can say pretty authoritatively that it is a bad idea to cooperate with strangers over the phone, even if they claim to be law enforcement.
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@3RU7AL
I did say SOMETIMES, but I will watch the video.
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@ludofl3x
The Ultimate Reality by nature is a singularity, that is, there is nothing else comparable to it. Created things are by nature only existent in relation to other existing things.
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@Salixes
To you it is a joke.
But God is not mocked. In the end, those who mock God only make fools of themselves.
The Truth is God. The Truth is not a joke.
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