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@Stephen
We are simply going to have to disagree then. I will not be able to convince you, as like pharaoh, your heart is hardened against God.
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@ludofl3x
No, I am saying that magic is a perceptual phenomenon. Perceptions are real, even if what is being perceived is not. Magic exists as magic.
An illusion exists as an illusion, even if its unreality is what defines it.
So you could say magic isn't real, but in some sense it is.
If you understand the implications of what I'm saying, it should help to answer your other questions.
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@BrotherDThomas
I disagree with your assertion. Christ does speak to us today.
I will point once again to the words of Jesus, "Blessed are the pure in heart, they shall see God".
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@ludofl3x
I wouldn't say clever stagecraft exclusively. It really has more to do with exploiting belief.
Being demonic, magic is intended to obscure the truth, and it is done by trickery.
It isn't that magic isn't real, it is very real, and even very prevalent in society. It's that, like illusion, it is defined by its unreality.
Of course, historically magicians wanted people to believe they actually had special powers. It wasn't always the case that magic tricks were exposed by magicians and explained to people. In fact, historically this was considered a big no no by magicians. You don't explain your tricks. Kind of takes the magic out, you know?
Being demonic, magic is intended to obscure the truth, and it is done by trickery.
It isn't that magic isn't real, it is very real, and even very prevalent in society. It's that, like illusion, it is defined by its unreality.
Of course, historically magicians wanted people to believe they actually had special powers. It wasn't always the case that magic tricks were exposed by magicians and explained to people. In fact, historically this was considered a big no no by magicians. You don't explain your tricks. Kind of takes the magic out, you know?
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@Stephen
In one case a staff actually turns into a snake. The magicians simply imitate this through trickery.
It's a different thing.
It's a different thing.
If you don't accept that, I don't know what to tell you.
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@Stephen
Thats just it. The magicians practice the art of illusion and deception. That is what magic is.
The point, as I said, was that Pharaoh was trying to dismiss Moses as a magician, not a prophet of God.
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Indeed GOD'S snake was obviously the best snake because it was a snake created by the all powerful GOD; it was gods special snake.But where did the ability to do the same trick performed by Pharaoh's "sourcerers", come from?
The Egyptians were pretty famous for their magic.
Where do stage magicians get their ability to perform magic?
Pharaoh saw Moses perform this sign with his staff, and took it as some soert of magic. It was pharaoh's intent to expose Moses' feat as magic by disproving him through having his magicians replicate the feat.
It becomes clear throughout the story that the signs being performed are from God, not Moses. It's not a magic trick, basically.
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@Stephen
It would be better to use the word "sign" than miracle, Stephen, I believe that expresses the meaning of the occurrence better in English.
Certainly these actions were signs. The fact that Moses' snake ate the snakes of the magicians was a sign as well.
Later in the story, it becomes increasingly clear that the magicians are so outclassed that they themselves confess that God is at work.
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@BrotherDThomas
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
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@BrotherDThomas
You are not a Christian at all, Thomas.
If you want to get an education on true Christianity, my witness is that The Orthodox Catholic Church is the authority. Find you a church that has services in English, and talk to the presbyter.
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@BrotherDThomas
Mopac,YOUR TROUBLING QUOTE: "You know, a lot of venerial diseases show up on the face."Barring the fact that your quote has nothing to do with the topic at hand, as usual, you seem to be worried about bumps and oozing upon your face? Therefore, if you have this malady, I suggest that you pray to Jesus post haste to heal the possible venereal disease that you may have on your face, because if you truly believe, you DO NOT need a doctor! Agreed? Of course you do, because if you didn't, you would be calling Jesus a LIAR to what He says in the following passage;JESUS STATED; “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, BELIEVING, ye shall receive.” (Matthew 21:22).
That is a load of nonsense, there were many great saints who were doctors, even Saint Luke the physician, who wrote the Gospel according to Luke.
Mopac,YOUR EMBARRASSING AND BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE: "Accusing God of being perverted is ridiculous. God is righteous. It is people who are perverse."Uh, no you are wrong once again, what's new on this notion? Nothing! You can't call me "perverse" because I did not state the section of the passage that you are running away from. Jesus, as the Lord, stated " ......and the lord will discover their secret parts," therefore Jesus is the one that is perverse!!!! 2+2=4.Barring your complete insidious disagreement with the passage in question, then take it up in prayer tonight with our serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, understand? Mopac, what part of "Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the lord will discover their secret parts" didn't you understand?
God cannot be perverse, as God's path is always straight. You are entertaining a stupid idea.
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@ronjs
@Discipulus_Didicit
Here is a definition of faith according Merriam-webster...
"something that is believed especially with strong conviction"
As a strong conviction can come from strong evidence, proof even, there is a type of faith that is reasonable to have.
It is because faith can be reasonable that to claim to be totally without faith would be an irrational position. It is very nihilistic.
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"There is no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD."
"If this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
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@SirAnonymous
Fyi....
Constantinople had a yuuuge wall.
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The Roman Empire continued to live on for another thousand years in the city bearing Constantine's name.
Eventually it was overrun by the Turks, but it had a good run.
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Accusing God of being perverted is ridiculous. God is righteous. It is people who are perverse.
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You know, a lot of venerial diseases show up on the face.
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
The thing is, even if there were multiple universes, those universes would only exist by the being that God gives them.
God is the source of all being.
The existence of God is a certainty. Much more so than commonly accepted "facts".
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Every single ecumenical council of the church before Rome's schism took place in the east.
The New Testament is written in Greek.
The vast majority of church fathers from the first 1,000 years after Christ wrote in Greek.
The Orthodox Church has preserved Church history. The bible is a part of Church history.
Besides that, the bible is an integral part of our Holy Tradition.
It is silly to detach the bible from the church. It is our book.
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@Athias
God is Reality as it Truly Is, or The Ultimate Reality.
If there is any reality at all, it by necessity derives its existence from The Ultimate Reality.
Experience scientifically verifies that there is some form of existence.
Therefore it can be known with 100% certainty that God exists. Not much else you can be that sure of!
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
Naturally God must still exist.you bring up some thoughts I had as well, if a person had experienced everything, had no challenges, there would be no purpose and would cease to exist. It's how to conceptualize an intelligence existing which has no or has exhausted all purpose. From my very limited perspective and knowledge, God must still be doing stuff or has ceased to exist for the reasons of either having a purpose or no longer having one. Hope that makes sense.
If there is no ultimate reality, then nothing is ultimately real. As your experience scientifically proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, there is some form of existence. Even if what you are experiencing is illusory, it still exists as illusion. The Ultimate Reality means reality as it truly is. The perception of anything at all proves that there is reality as it is perceived, and a reality as it truly is.
So without knowing reality as it truly is, we can know reality as it truly is.
All of creation testifies to the existence of God.
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@Stephen
@Deb-8-a-bull
It is very clear from the rest of the story that what God ends up doing is so far beyond what the magicians are able to do. That was even foreshadowed by the fact that the snake Moses' staff turned into ate the magician's snakes.
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@Stephen
He is describing the similarity of the relationship.
No, Moses is not God.
But just as a prophet will relay the words of God, so does Aaron relay the words of Moses.
That is what is being said.
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@Stephen
I do marvel at times about you theists.You appear to feel that you are in the position where you can tell the atheist to prove for you that there is or isn't a god. And that an atheist has to prove for you the bible to be correct or incorrect forgetting all the time that it is YOU the theist and the bible that is making all the claims.
I wouldn't ask the atheist to prove anything, because I don't respect their position enough to entertain it. We k ow God exists, we have no doubt. The atheist is suffering from delusion. It is delusion that can be cured by accepting what is understood, namely that The Ultimate Reality is God. There is no reasonable doubt about God's existence. The atheist is superstitious.
You don't understand our ways.
You and your flock are claiming the bible is truth. "What is truth" ? asked Pilate"The myth of Christ has served us well" . said Pope Leo X
You don't know what we believe about the bible. Pope Leo was the head of a schismatic church that had been seperated from Orthodoxy for 500 some years.
AND you keep missing these questions. Have you been told to avoid them by someone else? See if you can manage the last two at least.What was wrong with pious rich men entering the kingdom of god?Why would it be less easier for a rich man than it would for a less well off man to enter the kingdom of god?And what is actually meant by "the kingdom of God"?
I'm pretty sure I answered every one of these questions in post 21
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@OntologicalSpider
The maximal great being thing works with The Ultimate Reality.
Because if The Ultimate Reality is not present in a world, ultimately it isn't real. A world without God cannot exist.
Thank you, I've come to understand the ontological argument better by reading your posts!
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The purpose of chastisement is to correct and discipline.
They will thank you later.
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If you do not discipline your children, you are doing them a disservice.
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Jesus started a church, and that is the orthodox church.
The bible apart from the church is a bible detached from its context.
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@Stephen
Then you will believe anything but the truth. It's simple.
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God is existence itself. That is why a world cannot exist if it doesn't exist. That is, doesn't have God.
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@PressF4Respect
It might be a waste of time to debate uncertain things, I can go with that.
But I say it is a waste of time to debate the existence of God because God is the only certainty.
The Truth certainly exists, there by necessity is an ultimate reality.
Why is this even debated?
Because we live in a nihilistic age, and truth itself is under attack by those who are working to enslave us.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
A world where God doesn't exists can not exist.
All existence is contingent on God. No God, no existence.
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@Stephen
If the church's answer is the one you categorically reject, it is because you don't want the truth.
Rather, you are here to undermine the truth.
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@Stephen
Nobody is capable of addressing your superstitions Stephen. Only you can have the humility to be taught. The authoritative teachers are within the Holy Orders of the Orthodox Catholic Church.
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@TheRealNihilist
It is better to be a slave to God than a slave to the passions.
But if slave is too offensive of a word for you, I can also go with willing partaker of the divine nature.
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Christ's teachings are always about the heart.
It is harder for a rich person to avoid idolatry because it is easier to live out one's fantasies and sustain one's delusions when they can be financially maintained.
The poor man doesn't have padded money armor to soften the hard swift crash of reality.
In that sense, it can be said that the rich man is at a disadvantage.
The person that Jesus was talking to here found it hard to give up his riches. Riches can very easily become an idol before God. Its really easy to become attached to the nice things we have!
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@Stephen
What is there to answer?
The answer is always what the church teaches. If you refuse the answer of the church, that means that you aren't really looking for the correct answer. Rather, you will entertain anything but the truth.
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@Stephen
To hold God to the same standards as people is not unlike expecting animals to do people stuff.
You talk of God as if he was like people. God is The Ultimate Reality, not human being or a human like being. Respecting the identity of God leads quite naturally to the conclusion that to defy God is a vain thing, and that desiring to conform to God's will is the path of sanity and righteousness.
Morality is for people. Everything God does is right because God is The Truth. The Truth defines what is right. Making peace with God is making peace with reality.
Judging God is as silly as holding an earthquake morally accountable.
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@TheRealNihilist
I'm sure if your life was laid out for us to examine, we could determine pretty easily what enslaves you.
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@BrotherDThomas
Everyone must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.
To walk in humility with God, that is The Way.
To walk in humility with God, that is The Way.
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@BrotherDThomas
If you really cared about people finding the narrow gate, you would be talking a lot more about salvation. Instead you make it very clear that your intent is to sow doubt, stir up strife, and undermine Christianity itself.
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@TheRealNihilist
The Truth is God.
The Truth is a better measure of things than you.
The Truth is that everything is as it should be.
Your rejection of reality does not overthrow reality.
The Truth is a better canon than your arbitrary sense of aesthetics.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Thomas is always right. Doesn't him declaring victory for himself all the time prove this?
Remember, if someone is so frustrated by your stupidity that they walk away, that means you won the argument. You can now rightly pat yourself on the back and declare yourself the most undefeated best winner ever.
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@BrotherDThomas
It is not very Christian to slap people with bibles and lord their ignorance over them either.
Stupid people are always right in their own eyes. That being the case, you constantly declaring yourself victorious makes you look like an idiot.
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With God, anything is possible.
The often neglected next line.
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@Stephen
Yes, you have made it clear that you are a pagan. No one cares.
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@Stephen
I understand that you have problems with your ego, and that is why you feel it is necessary to defend yourself.
No one in the world cares about your insecurities.
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@TheRealNihilist
You couldn't even create an ant.
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@Stephen
My argument is that if you don't believe God exists, it is because you don't understand what is being discussed.
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