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@PressF4Respect
You already believe in our God, as you professed to believe the Ultimate Reality exists.
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@Stephen
Your interpretation is obviously wrong, because it doesn't make sense.
The interpretation that I presented to you is clearly stated in the text, and it is done in such a way that that is a lot clearer than you are making it out to be.
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@Stephen
The same book that calls Jesus the only begotten Son of God also says that we become sons of God.
So what you really should be asking what we teach on the matter, because interpretation of scripture is the domain of the church, and besides, it is our book.
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@Stephen
The gods can war all they like. They began to exist, and they will cease to exist. Time is lord over them. They are created beings.
The Lord of time and all other beings is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, The One True God.
The Uncreated God reigns supreme, and there is no challenger to His throne. His reign is everlasting.
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@Stephen
The Eternal Way is not the invention of human minds. It is the mystery kept secret since the world began, but revealed in The Incarnate Truth.
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@PressF4Respect
It is simply a matter of accepting what is meant by The Word. If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, The Holy Spirit is not in you, and it is impossible for you to experience these divine mysteries.
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@disgusted
Then I don't believe whatever god you are talking about, because it is not my God.
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@disgusted
As sin is deviation from The Way, and The Way is Truth, it is ridiculous to accuse The Truth of sin. Belief that God is guilty of sin is delusion.
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@disgusted
Leaning on their own understanding has led many thinkers into delusion.
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@Reece101
In a strange way, we all know God without knowing God.
Someone who abides in The Way is good by the virtue of divine grace.
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What makes the Septuigant (or the bible as a whole) sound?
I think that question kind of misses the point of what the bible is and what it is used for. How do we use the bible? We use the bible to teach The Way.
The bible is not our God. The bible is a witness to our God.
The conclusion of your argument (that God exists) is inside the definition, which is itself inside one of the premises. Thus, it is circular.
I am not arguing that God exists. I am asserting that God exists. I am also asserting that if you are in doubt about whether God exists or not, it is because you are superstitious. It is nonsensical to question the existence of God. There is no legitimate debate.
You are confused because you are using logic in an irrational way.How so?
You are attempting to tie a logical fallacy to my reasoning when I have not made any reasoning. The God I presented obviously exists, and since you have no argument against this God you want to argue about something else and call it God.
This is the only argument that atheists have. It is also strangely consistent too, because to deny my God is to deny The Truth. If you do not believe in Truth, it stands to reason that you are arguing from an arbitrary position.
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@PressF4Respect
In the Septuigant l, the name God gives to Moses is literally "The Eternally Existing One"
If God doesn't exist, the most fundamental aspect of what makes God is not present. Namely that God exists. It can only be a god, or straw man god.
You are confused because you are using logic in an irrational way.
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@zedvictor4
If you don't think I am sensible, then you shouldn't be coming at me with questions. After all, your only intent from that point would be to make yourself out to be something by picking on someone you think is mentally incompetent.
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@PressF4Respect
It is only a debate if you are talking about something other than my God when you are talking about God. In that instance, I would tell you that I don't believe your god either.
If you accept that God is what God is, there is no debate.
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@PressF4Respect
It is really a lot more simple than all that.
What we acknowledge as God is The Ultimate Reality.
Our religion is to be living icons of The Truth.
Everything really follows naturally from this.
It is easy to get confused in the details if you don't take it all in its entirety.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."
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@Vader
As the scriptures are written in Greek, and it is the language of the ecumenical councils, it can only benefit the church in America to have strong influence from the Greek church.
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@PressF4Respect
Do you know da wae?<br>ftfy
Believe me, I was thinking it the whole time.
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@Stephen
In the case of Christ, it is distinct in that The Christ is the incarnate Word of God.
A man can not save, only God saves.
And in becoming incarnate, all of creation has been sanctified by the presence of God.
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@Paul
I've never thought about spirituality very much and find myself wondering what it is?I'd like to learn what exactly it is, how to achieve it, what the benefits are, why I should be spiritual and read about your personal experiences with spirituality.I am interested in all forms of spirituality, not just those connected with established mainstream religions.
Orthodox spirituality can look very complicated from an outsider looking in, but everything we do is centered around purifying the heart and abiding in The Way.
We say, the kingdom of heaven is within, and it must be taken by force.
We believe that the true nature of a human being is that they are made in the image of God, who we understand as being The Truth. As our true identity is to be a living icon of The Truth, our practice is to keep ourselves free of the defilements that obscure that shining light of Truth that we are called to bring to the world.
Through synergia with the uncreated divine energy, we achieve unity with The Word of God, which is The Truth. If we are truly in unity with The Word of God, it will only be by The Holy Spirit of God, which is The Spirit of Truth. If we have been drawn into unity with God's Word and God's Spirit, we are worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. If we are worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth, we are worshipping God in Trinity. If we are worshipping God in Trinity, we are worshipping The One True God. The One True God, that is, The Supreme and Ultimate Reality. Orthodoxy, or right worship, is worship of God in Trinity, to the glory of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
And so all of our prayers, fastings, observances and such are intended to instruct in The Way, purify the heart, and train in faithfulness.
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@Stephen
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."
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@Stephen
I certainly get that impression.
Realistically, I don't know what goes on in everyone's personal lives.
I get along with just about everybody, even people who hate eachother. I do my best to encourage peace among those I know.
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@Stephen
It would certainly be sin otherwise.
Point being, deviation is where there are problems. We are all at different stages of development too.
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@RationalMadman
The hererodox have done a lot of things that are not orthodox.
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@Stephen
We learn from these writings, and they are certainly useful in instructing people in The Way.
We certainly believe that murder and adultery is wrong. Yet, we can still learn from those who have done these things. One thing that can be learned is that even though David repented and was forgiven by God, he still had to deal with the consequences of his actions. The later part of King David's reign was made very difficult because of the sins he committed. King David w as s. supposed to be a perfect example of moral uprightness, and he did something heinous.
We are not afraid to learn from these things. We use these accounts to instruct people in the way of righteousness. David commited a horrible sin and everyone acknowledges that. What makes him stand out from others who would do the same thing is that he felt guilty about it, admitted he was wrong, and corrected course.
So learn what we teach from it, not what you want to extract from it. Without The Holy Spirit, you are wasting your time with scripture. Your studies will be long, arduous, and if you don't aquire The Holy Spirit in the process, ultimately useless.
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Do you know The Way?
The Way of Truth.
The Way of Eternal Life.
It is worshipping God in Spirit and Truth. It is partaking of the divine nature. It is synergia with the divine energies. It is becoming divine by God's grace. It is union with Christ Jesus.
It is The True faith. Worshipping the undivided consubstantial Trinity.
It is the path of the spiritual athlete, the one who forgoes the fleeting vanities and insatiable passions of this life, the one who allows themselves to be purified by the waters of Truth in order that they confrom to the image of Truth.
It is The Way of Peace, of freedom. Those who abide in The Way hold humanity back from slavery and destruction, until The Way is forgotten and people destroy themselves.
The Way is True Religion, and it is revealed to all who sincerely seek it.
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@Stephen
I am instructed....
"foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will"
That being the case, I consider these foolish and unlearned questions, and suggest it would be more edifying for you if you simply received what the church teaches.
It is more important to find The Way than it is to split hairs over things that are in many cases both unknowable and irrelevant in regards to salvation.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
It is a common misconception that The Church condemns everyone who isn't in the church.
Actually, our answer is much saner than that. It isn't our place to judge, God knows their heart.
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@Stephen
Yeah, he was not perfect.
If you pay attention, from the time that David commited his great sin onward, his reign was marked by strife and chaos. He did repent.
And that is a big difference between those who truly have faith in God and the pretenders and godless. The lover of God confesses their sins and changes direction. The wicked in their pride comit to their delusion, and never repent. If they appear to, it is only to deceive and get ahead. It doesn't come from a desire for godliness.
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@RationalMadman
RM, you are right in that it was God working through David to kill Goliath. You gave a really good answer.
But it shouldn't be understated David's role in this. Despite his shortcomings, David was a man after God's own heart. What that means is that he cooperated with God.
The Church teaches synergism, not monergism. That is, God's grace is not totally irresistible, but that we have a part to play in abiding in The Way. In other words, we have free will, and the divine energy that God graces us with can be misdirected and abused.
Glory to God! Glory to his servant David, who is certainly accounted as righteous for his faith.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
God is written on the hearts of all men.
What that means is, God can be independently discovered and adored independent of any instruction.
Make no mistake, proper guidance will save you from a great deal of dead ends, delusion, and your growth will be a lot quicker and focused.
Besides that, the deadliest and most difficult sin to overcome is pride. Seeking proper guidance along with submitting to it is a weapon against pride, though not exclusively. People can be proud even under the guidance of a wise and humble elder!
It is my witness that The Orthodox Church presents true and enlightened Christianity.
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@Stephen
According to to Church tradition it would be David.
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@Stephen
Most of your questions dissapear if you accept the truth, and the rest are not really important.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
God does not need anything, it is people who need things.
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@Alec
Heaven seems much more important than a life on Earth if heaven exists. The thing is, does it exist? I honestly am not sure, but am open to change my mind.
We believe in the day of resurrection, the last day.
At the fulfillment of all things, the light of God shines through all of creation. Everything that ever existed is brought back, and the light of Truth fills all of it. When this happens, all illusion will be expelled, everything hidden shall be revealed, and everything will be known just as it is truly known.
When this happens, those who abide in The Way will have peace, because in doing so they lived as icons of The Truth, and their sins have been washed away by The Life giving Holy Spirit. Through cooperation with God's divine energy, they have accepted God's salvation, partaken of the divine nature, and now have found paradise.
Those who have deviated from The Way because they never received a love for The Truth will be tormented by their delusions, having identified not with the image of God that they were made in, but the filth that obscures that image. When The Divine Light of Truth touches such people, they will face the burning agony of eternal death.
The same Divine Light that is paradise to the saints is agonizing hell to those who put their faith in lying vanities.
Salvation is through Jesus Christ, who is The Eternal Way, God with us. His apostolic church preserves the gospel of salvation, and that church is The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.
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@Athias
Gnosticism is deviation from The Way.
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@Melcharaz
A little late on this one, but it popped up at the top of the forum.
The doctrine of double predestination is a Calvinist innovation that has never had church acceptance. In fact, Calvinism in general, to my knowledge, is the only reformation school of thought that has been officially declared heretical by the Orthodox Church!(see "The Confession of Dositheus" from the synod of Jerusalem 1672)
Besides, it is really silly to take a couple questionably interpreted scriptures out of context to deny free will when the vast majority of scripture tells us to repent and choose to go with God.
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@Alec
While western Europe was sailing all happy around the world...
How was Orthodoxy introduced to the Americas? Missionary monks trecked across all of Siberia and crossed into Alaska. The Aleuts still have a sizable Orthodox population to this day. One of their first martyrs was tortured to death by a Roman Catholic priest for not submitting to the authority of Rome.
Really though, take that in. Trecked across all of Siberia. That is not an easy assignment. St Herman of Alaska was a pretty tough dude, along with the other monks that accompanoed him.
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They aren't. They are shrinking:
Read a little closer. Orthodoxy is growing in numbers, but not as a percentage of the nominally Christian population.
Is that really surprising? They don't let us proselytize or even practice our faith openly in the middle east, The Soviet Union killed dozens of millions of us while demolishing our churches and killing like 90% of the clergy. Up until pretty recently, Greece was a part of Turkey. In fact, Greek Orthodoxy is the largest in America. Why? Because while everyone else in the church was landlocked and oppressed by anti-christs, Greece has been relatively free in recent times and also... happens to not be landlocked! Really, that helps.
So I mean, you know, cut us some slack. At least I am here, right? Eh?
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@Alec
I don't think you really grasp just how much the church has been through, particularly in the last couple hundred years.
But I certainly stand by The Orthodox Catholic Church, and I am convinced it is the definitive Christian Church. I can't really expect to transfer that awareness to you. All I can really say is that if you are curious, nothing beats actually going to an Orthodox Church, taking part in the liturgy, talking to the priests, asking questions and such, and reading church literature.
It is something you would have to want to look in to yourself. I doubt I am capable of convincing anyone of anything.
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@Alec
Armenian genocide, Greek genocide, Syrian genocide, and of course, The Soviet Union which deserves special mention because they made more martyrs in a few decades than all of Christian history combined!
It's actually somewhat of a miracle that the church is growing at all, especially given the harsh persecutions of the last century.
The Orthodox Church in America is not fully formed, it is still in its infancy. That being the case, we have this weird situation where you have a lot of different churches from overseas. Mostly immigrants escaping persecution in.... just about every single country that has an orthodox presence.
I shit you not.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
Jesus Christ is how creation has been reconciled to divinity.
Is Jesus God? Certainly, along with the unoriginate Father and Life giving Holy Spirit. These 3 are in fact 1 God. 1 God revealed to us in 3 hypostases.
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@Alec
I hope they do, but after reading a certain encyclical from the last Pope of Rome which describes how Catholic Seminaries all over the world have openly gay clubs, which should not even be a thing, it seems to me that the corruption is out of of control.
You don't have to believe me about the accuracy of my claims. I found The Orthodox Church by accident(or providence? Eh.). Studying church history and the writings of the church fathers is what made me Orthodox. The church I go to his filled with parishoners who used to be clergy at other churches. The oldest priest(who is technically retired, but still sticks around and teaches classes and such) was a former Roman Catholic priest. We had a deacon who recently moved away who was an episcopalian priest. Another guy who was a Lutheran pastor. Another guy who was a pastor at a Church of Christ. A lot of lay Roman Catholic and protestant parishioners as well.
One thing all these people who used to be clergy have in common is that all of them were pastors for over 20 years, and all of them ended up becoming orthodox because that is where their studies lead them.
So if it is really a subject that interests you, I'd say look in to it. What really won me over though was the fact that the Orthodox Church has enlightened doctrine. It really knows the God it worships, and I can't say that about most churches.
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@Deb-8-a-bull
God either exists or doesn't exist FULL STOP
If God doesn't exist, you aren't talking about God. God must exist in order to be God.
The name that God gives to Moses even establishes this. It is even more clear in the septuigant, which when translated into English tends to get rendered "The Eternally Existing One"
I AM THAT I AM. What does that mean? The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is the very name God gave to Moses.
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What if someone else came in and said Brahma was the Ultimate Reality?
I would probably correct them and say that "Brahman" would be more accurate.
There is a problem. The conclusion you're trying to reach is that God is real. If you do this by defining God as "The Ultimate Reality", you're essentially defining God to exist. Like with Anselm's "Maximally Great Being", this boils down to:P1: God exists.C1: Therefore, God exists.This logic begs the question, and is therefore entirely circular.
Our faith is not one that was brought about through reason, but revelation. We have understood God the same way for thousands of years. There is no problem, because God exists. That is the God we believe, and so we can without doubt say, "Only a fool in their heart says there is no God.".
There is no debate about the existence of God.
Actions are temporal. The act of God creating something (like space and time) is an action. If time didn't exist, then actions wouldn't be able to happen.
This is true. I however, did not say that there is no time. God acts within time, obviously, but at the. same time God exists outside of time. That is why we say we are not pantheists, but panentheists.
The creation of the universe is certainly an action. There is definitely a change between the "before" state and the "after". Before, no universe. After, universe. Therefore, there would be time before the universe was created. Otherwise, the universe would never have been created, as it would have stayed in that "before" state (with no universe).
The creation itself marks the beginning of time. That is why we say God is "pre-eternal". In a temporal sense, there isn't anything before time. Yet, God's existence preceeds time, and time itself is contingent on God.
Does God move? If so, then what granted him the power to do so?
God's interaction with the universe is through His Word and Breath, or his Son and Holy Spirit. The Trinity itself has a great deal to do with God's relationship to creation. God acts in creation because God through the incarnation took the form of creation. The incarnation effectively unites the two very different natures of divinity and creation into the single hypostasis of The Son. All power originates with God.
If God is the Ultimate Reality, and if all of the evils are included within this Ultimate Reality, then God can't be omnibenevolent
Mankind was made in the image of God. Part of what this means is that we have free will. More specifically, the ability to misuse the divine energy that God graces with us. If God so willed, He could have made us automatons. Instead, God has shared part of His divine nature with us.
What is evil? It is nothing. On the last day, when the light of Truth fills all of creation, and all will be revealed, illusion will cease to be, and evil right along with it. Everything will be revealed as is. That is why we say that the fires of hell and the light of heaven are the same thing. To those who identify with what defiles them, it will be hell as they are shown who the really are. To those who abide in The Eternal Way, The Light of Truth will be their heaven.
Some claim that hell is seperation of God. It is more accurate to say that hell is rejection of God. Whether one rejects God or not, there is no escaping God, who is everywhere present and fills all things. It is even written, "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."
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@Alec
There are a few major differences.
1, The Orthodox Church has never prescribed to the idea of papal supremacy. In fact, at the time of the great schism, there were 4 other "Popes" or patriarchs. These all had jurisdictions, and prior councils of the church condemned the practice of foreign bishops meddling in the affairs of local churches. The Patriarchs themselves are simply bishops. Their vote counts the same as any other bishop. Theirs is primarily an administrative and logistical role(besides of course, what is expected of every bishop, which is to be a living icon of Christ and a preserver of the faith)
2, The creed of The Orthodox Catholic Church was agreed by the entire church, including Rome to be what was formulated at the ecumenical councils of Nicea and Constantinople. Church councils clearly state that altering the creed of the church outside of an ecumenical council is an act of schism and is considered anathema.
These are the two major things that lead to the great schism, and they are far too important to gloss over. The first example might be a little more obvious, because it isn't hard to see how the rest of the church might take issue with someone effectively declaring themselves king of all Christendom. The altering of the creed has vast theological implications that corrupts the doctrine of The Trinity.
The part of the creed in question is the line that reads
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father."
What the Latin church did was add "and the Son." To the end of this.
Now, it would be correct to say that The Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father through The Son, but to say that The Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father and The Son is problematic for a few simple reasons.
In the original creed written in Greek, the word that gets translated into "proceeds" has to do with the origin. The Orthodox point of view is that The Father is the source of divinity.
Jesus Himself says that the Spirit proceeds from The Father.
When you speak a word, does the breathe you exhale originate in the word that is spoken? No, the breathe proceeds from the lungs, the word is begotten from the lips, and the breathe proceeds through the word carrying it. Though this is a parable and shouldn't be taken to mean that God The Father has lungs or a mouth, it is an accurate image of how we see the procession of The Spirit through The Word.
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Now besides all that, since the Latin Church became schismatic, they have drifted further and further away from Orthodoxy. One of the best examples is present in our approaches to theology.
Compare hesychism with scholasticism.
In the Latin church developed scholasticism, which is an approach to theology that emphasizes proper education amd the use of reason.
In The Orthodox Church, we have maintained the original discipline of the faith which has more to do with purifying the heart than reason.
Most of the church fathers were Greek, and so in the Latin speaking Church Augustine gained special prominence and to this day is easily the most influential church father in the west. In fact, Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk. John Calvin derived most of his theology from his interpretation of Augustine's writings. So even in protestantism, Augustine is very influential!
Unfortunately during Augustine's life, the not as accurate as maybe it should have been Latin bible gave Augustine this idea that all of humanity has inherited the guilt of Adam. The Orthodox position is actually that we inherited the mess that was caused by Adam's transgression, not the guilt.
An example of how this has effected their theology, the doctrine of the immaculate conception was invented basically to get around the idea that Mary had inherited the guilt of Adam. So, Mary was born without sin, unlike any other human being, so that Christ would inherit her perfect sinless flesh. The Orthodox Church has no such doctrine, because we don't understand original sin the same way!
Roman Catholicism is more judicial, while Orthodox Catholicism sees the church in a more therepeutic sense. Court house vs hospital.
Roman Catholics are encouraged to pray while imagining images. The Orthodox rightly understand this practice as leading to spiritual delusion, and we are encouraged instead to avoid images in our inner prayer.
The Roman Catholic Church reassigns clergy who sexual abuse others. The Orthodox Catholic Church does not tolerate sexual abuse among its clergy.
The Roman Catholic Church does not allow for married priests. It is a preference in The Orthodox Catholic Church that priests are married.
The Roman Catholic Church has called crusades, forcibly converted native peoples, and has persecuted and murdered many saints. The Orthodox Catholic Church can not call crusades, and has been in nearly a constant state of persecution its entire history, even up until today.
During the middle ages, The Pope of Rome claimed secular authority and bishops held government office. The Orthodox Catholic Church maintains that it must be distinct from government, considering the combining of the two to be the heresy of caesaropapsim, and it is against church canon for clergy to hold government office.
While both Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics highly rever the blessed theotokos and virgin Mary(she is like a mother to all Christians) even in a way that makes protestants a little uncomfortable, it is a bit different. For example, the day we celebrate the bodily death of Mary(dormition), the Roman Catholics celebrate the assumption. It is offical dogma of The Roman Catholic Church that Mary was lifted into heaven without bodily death! It is not uncommon to see Roman Catholic icons (Like the virgin of Guadalupe) of Mary by herself. With very few exceptions, all icons of Mary in The Orthodox Church also include Jesus, and Mary is always directing attention to Him.
There are really a lot of differences. That said, we share a thousand years of history in common, so there are going to be many similarities as well.
The Roman Catholics say Orthodoxy broke away from them. The Orthodox Catholic Church say Rome broke away from them. I studied the issue myself and concluded that Rome is on the wrong side of the issue, because they are the ones who altered the faith and violated the ecumenical councils, of which The Orthodox Church has been very faithful despite the fact that there seems to be a never ending global conspiracy to destroy our church.
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@PressF4Respect
The problem is, how is this "reality" associated with the attributes that are assigned to the being that Christians and Jews call God (omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence, etc.)?
It is really simple.
God's omniscience is established by the fact that The Ultimate Reality would by necessity hold every bit of information that exists. We can say both past and present because time is contingent on The Ultimate Reality, which is pre-eternal, and thus, outside time. The beginning and end of things are just as visible to God as the present. From God's vantage point, you can say that the present is all of time presented in its entirety.
God's omnipotence is established by the fact that everything that moves is doing so by the power that God granted it. If something moves, it does so by the power of God.
God's omnibenevolence is established through the understanding that Truth is the highest good, and being that God is Truth in the truest sense of the word, God is what defines good. Every action of God is innately good.
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@PressF4Respect
There is no problem. There is no argument that stands against God. Atheism towards God(rather than gods) is fundamentally a position of ignorance.
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@PressF4Respect
Christians in the middle east use the word "Allah" for God. Certainly, we both believe The Ultimate Reality is God. Then I would want to have a respectful conversation that hopefully shows some common ground without neglecting the differences. I would of course explain why I do not accept Mohammed as a prophet.
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