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@Singularity
When I say, "The Truth", I am not talking about an honest statement.
I am talking very specifically talking about that which is ultimately real. Namely, the one all pervasive reality that unites all of existence. The True Singularity, for the God I speak of is incomparable, and there nothing like this God. The God I speak of is very distinct in nature from created things. While created things are contingent on other created things and ultimately God, God is self existing, and singular. Unchanging. Complete.
I am speaking about the unknown God, because God, being The True Singularity is incomprehensible. To know God as God truly is would be to know everything that can be known, and more. God's essence is unknowable.
Though God's essence is unapproachable, it is it so strange to say that we can be certain of God's existence? Is it even so strange to believe that The Ultimate Reality exists? By definition, God is more real than anything else you think is real. Truthfully, this world IS illusion, and only God is real. But in this world of illusion are types and shadows that point to The One. We discern God's existence through God's uncreated energies which permeate creation. The Light shines in the darkness.
Believe me when I say that what I am trying to communicate is very simple. It is The Truth. Not a truth, but THE Truth. This is no exaggeration or hype, it is reality.
The big secret is that our religion is Truth worship. Everything follows from that, and it is impossible to see how if you can't accept that. Yet all of it is intricately tied together and very consistent.
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@Singularity
I am not the same person.
It is my primary mission to educate, I would encourage you to probe. You are not offending me.
For something to exist, there must be some truth in it. Even if reality exists as an illusion, for it to exist as an illusion there must be some truth in it.
The Truth that gives everything its being is God. It is The Ultimate Reality that all realities derive their being.
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@disgusted
The holy and righteous all laudable Apostle Saint John the theologian is a pretty good example.
And no one frustrates the so called gnostics and believers in Mohammed than good ol' John.
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@Singularity
You are having trouble reconciling your superstitions concerning God with what I just told you.
I am presenting to you in the clearest most demystifying way what we believe to the best of my ability. I'm sure if we are both patient, eventually we can come to an understanding of The Truth, which is the objective of righteous debate. Arguing is not righteous debate. Neither is it intelligent. The surest proof of this is observing children who argue. When debate becomes less about coming to an understanding of The Truth, and more about the imposition of will or the appearance of righteousness, it ceases to be edifying debate.
So I ask that you be patient with me and show me charity so that we can have a truly righteous debate, and not an argument. I will by the grace of God afford you that courtesy regardless.
Besides, we'll have more fun anyway.
We acknowledge The Ultimate Reality as God.
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@Singularity
The fact that you are having an experience at all proves conclusively that there is some form of existence. There is a reality as it is experienced.
If there is a reality as it is experienced, there by necessity must be a reality as it truly is.
Reality in the truest sense of the word is God. That is what "Supreme Being" means. That is what "The Ultimate Reality" means.
To put it simply, The Truth is God.
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@Singularity
My faith is not blind, I have experiential and true knowledge of God's existence. Neither am I making an argument. I am making assertions.
Do you doubt that there is Ultimate Reality?
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@Singularity
I do not recognize any valid debate about the existence of God. The existence of God is a certainty, and so the debate is not ever truly about the existence of God.
I probably don't believe whatever god you are talking about either, and neither does the church.
Ours is a revealed faith, not something arrived at through reason. It is not a philosophy. It is The Eternal Way.
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is The One True God, and surely this God exists. There is no reasonable doubt about this matter.
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@Athias
Truthfully, a lot of the things we do liturgically are carry overs from Jewish worship in the temple and in the synagogues.
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@Athias
I'll get to the point. I wasn't seeking a particular explanation on your interpretation and your approaches. The first thing I confirmed is that you believe in the immaculate conception.
The immaculate conception is a doctrine concerning Mary being born perfect and without sin. It is actually a doctrine that The Roman Catholic Church came up with as a solution to one of their deviations from Orthodoxy.
The deviation being that they believe that humanity inherited the guilt of the sins commited in the.garden of Eden. The Orthodox position is actually that we inherited the mess caused from it, not the guilt.
We do not understand original sin the same way.
So no, actually neither I or the Orthodox Church accepts the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Mary was a regular woman just like anyone else, particularly pious surely. The thing that makes her stick out is her relationship to Jesus. As The Church is the body of Christ, in a way, Mary is seen as our mother. When we remember the saints during our liturgy we always make sure to mention Mary first. We certainly do not make her out to be God.
Do you adhere to baptism?
From the Nicene-Constantinople creed..
"We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins."
Do you partake in Holy Communion?
It is the high point and climax of our liturgy. It is an institution established by Christ himself and faithfully preserved by his apostolic church.
Are your priests/bishops/patriarchs celibate?
Most priests(more accurately they are referred to as presbyters, because technically we are a nation of priests)are married. The preference is actually for presbyters to be married. Bishops tend to be selected among monastics or presbyters who outlived their wives. That is the preference.
There have always been exceptions, but they wouldn't be the norm.
Are the nuns celibate?
Of course! A nun is a female monastic. Monastics are always celibate. Some people are called to this particular way of life. For those who are not, marriage is the recommended alternative.
Do you pray to Mary?
There was this one wedding feast Jesus and Mary went to where the wine ran out. People started complaining about the lack of wine. Noticing this, Mary brought this matter to Jesus. That day, He turned water into wine.
In a great way, that is what praying to Mary is like in Orthodoxy.
Again, it is really about Jesus.
Do your bishops carry the crossiers, a.k.a. The Lituus staffs, a.k.a. the crooked wands
Yes, Bishops have crosiers. They are usually stylized to represent the serpent staff Moses lifted in the wilderness, which in itself typified Christ being raised up on the cross.
Sometimes they are also stylized as the Greek letter tau, which resembles some crosses that Romans used for execution.
Do they wear the cross?
More accurately, they wear crucifixes. The cross is not empty.
Do you celebrate Christmas?
We also call it the feast of the nativity.
Do you celebrate Easter, particularly Easter Sunday?
We call it Pascha or passover but yeah, we celebrate Easter. It is always on a Sunday. Pascha is a big deal to us, we go all out. It is easily our biggest feast day.
I'm not scrutinizing Catholicism to demonize it. Far from it actually. I suspect your everyday Catholic doesn't know the origin of the rituals and customs his Church has him or her practice.
I don't think most so called "gnostics" or "neognostics" do either, so if I were you I wouldn't get my information from them. Understand that their only intention is to undermine the faith and cast doubt. They think they are gnostics, but epignosis is the Revelation of Jesus Christ. They do not truly know as they make pretense.
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@Singularity
The God we believe in is The Ultimate Reality.
If it doesn't exist, it can't be God. Existence is so intrinsically tied to the essence of God.
I am not motivated by fear or promise of reward. I love God for who God Is.
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@disgusted
If you knew my God, you would know that it is very different from these gods.
Necessarily, when The Word is spoken, it must take flesh. And so when The Eternal and unpronounceable Name that is the very essence of God becomes flesh in order that we may witness God through it, that flesh takes the form of a written or spoken name. This name is creation, and it is this condescension of God to become creation that allows us to witness Him that is Uncreated. That incarnate word takes the name "The Supreme and Ultimate Reality".
And if you do not have the Spirit Of Truth to see that God is who God says He is, that is all you will see. All you will see is that created name, not recognizing The Spirit of that name and the Uncreated name it is a witness to.
But if you have The Spirit, in recognizing The Divine through The Flesh that it takes, you can rightly profess belief in The Triune God. And so, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit constitute 1 God, The True God, as revealed in 3 hypostases.
And this is what distinguishes Orthodoxy from the pagans and even other monotheists. In not acknowledging The Trinity, they can only really profess worship of a conception of God. In The Trinity, we acknowledge the symbol while at the same time acknowledging the deeper reality it witnesses.
So no, you are very mistaken. The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God, and there is no other like this God. The gods all came into being, and will one day cease to exist. They are gods in name only, but The One True God is The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
To the glory of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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@disgusted
You think you know, but you don't.
Because you think you know, you will never know.
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@Singularity
I'm being a bit facetious when I call it a vacation, I know.
I get what ceasing to exist means. Doesn't bother me at all. I achieved total hopelessness at a pretty young age. I used to say that no hope is what gave me guts. Though I am a different person today, I still find everything to be done in this world as vanity.
Somehow, that translates very well into being Orthodox.
So now when I serve, I do it as for God. Now when I give, I do it with a sincere detachment. Now when I become a fool for Christ's sake, I do it with no regard to my reputation.
In a way, we Orthodox are like nihilists. The nihilist puts all of their faith in the world and no faith in God. In doing so, their faith is in the abyss, and they can even discern this. We Orthodox however, put all our faith in God and none of it in the world. In doing so, our faith is in eternity.
The Truth is what sets you free. The Truth is God.
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Christians in the west don't get it like we in The Orthodox Church do, but for thousands of years and even now we have constantly been under persecution.
It's weird. Heretical Christianity somehow manages to persecute us and then get us blamed for what THEY ARE DOING.
I dare say we are the most persecuted people on Earth. Is that not to be expected? Christ said it would be this way.
But the real kicker is how the protestants and evangelicals hate us for reminding them of Rome, while at the same time they are eager to claim our martyrs.
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@Stephen
The Koran not only demonstrates an ignorance of Christian theology on several occasions, but it contradicts the teachings of the apostles and the church fathers.
Why should I believe Mohammed over the apostles themselves? I shouldn't. That's what I think.
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@Singularity
Christianity is not simply a coping mechanism to face death. If that was the case, I never would have been attracted to it, because I have long come to terms with the fact that I will die, and I am not attached enough to this vain world to care. Ceasing to exist sounds like a vacation!
Your strongest efforts will not give you immortality. Quite the contrary, it is in grasping for this life that you lose it.
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@Reece101
With great power comes great responsibility, with absolute power comes absolute responsibility. Do you agree?
Those who are faithful with little will be entrusted with much.
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That would be covered by the human nature aspect of the divine hypostasis of The Son.Explain the crazy
If you have already made your mind up that it is crazy, why should I waste the effort to facilitate your enlightenment? After all, you know better.
But let it be apparent that there is a great deal more going on with us than what meets the eye. Much could be learned if I was simply believed, rather than dismissed and not taken seriously. If I was believed, my faith would be understood by now. Because no one believes, but instead thinks "No, it can't possibly be what he is saying, because that isn't what I see."
Without faith you will never see. I speak plainly about things and they are taken as enigmas. I can't be any more lucid.
You won't believe me when I speak plainly, and now you want me to reveal mystagogical things to you?
Nevertheless, the answer to your question has everything to do with who The Son is. Namely, God becoming flesh and dwelling among us. That God didn't just tune a clockwork universe and run off. Rather, God is here with us, nearer even than our blood, and is witnessed through the things that are made.
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If your representation of Orthodox Catholicism is as you claim, then the Church of Rome should be more than just "in schism." As I stated before, Catholicism is a perversion, and purposefully so.
Rome is in schism BECAUSE of the fact they perverted the faith.
It's not simply idolatry; it's practices, and customs, and yes even clothing. Even their veneration of females a la "Virgin Mary" is in reference to the "mother goddess," Isis. Images are only the start of it.
I am sure you don't understand our practices, but I'd be happy to explain any for you.
We Do not worship Mary as God. She is a creature. What makes her special is that besides beimg a shining example of saintliness for women as well as men, Jesus Christ received His flesh from her body.
We don't have many official doctrines concerning Mary. Other than she was a virgin before, during, and after Jesus' birth, and that she can rightly be called Theotokos or mother of God because she did in fact give birth to God in the flesh, a did raise Him as a mother.
I am not protestant. I was never raised protestant. I'm not religious at all. I just do a lot of reading. But before I move forward with this, in what ways do you as an Orthodox Catholic differ from Roman Catholics? I'd rather receive the information from an adherent directly. And please, be as extensive as necessary.
I made a fairly lengthy post near the start of this here topic...
... that gives a rough outine of some major differences. Are there more? Probably. Regardless, I don't want anyone to take anything I say that may be a tad polemical to justify mistreatment of anyone. An Orthodox Christian is called to love everyone, even, maybe especially those who persecute us. Besides, there many pious Roman Catholics out there. We should treat eachother with love and respect.
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@Reece101
“The Way” requires spacetime.
That would be covered by the human nature aspect of the divine hypostasis of The Son.
Try to look at free will and determinism more deeper. Not just at a superficial level, but physics itself.Choice is merely the ability to evaluate potential possibility and decide, which we’re all capable of to one degree or another. It has no bearing on free will and determinism at the deeper level.
Determinism is a way that people can avoid responsibility for their own actions by blaming God for making them a terrible person. That might seem to be a crass way of putting it, but that is the implication. God made me do it!
As far as our relationship with God is concerned, a humble and contrite heart is what is proper. Whether we truly have free will or not, we certainly have the experience of free will. That being the case, it makes no sense to operate as if one had no free will. Determinism, if a reality at all, would certainly be classified as an ignoble truth, because it serves absolutely no benefit to the person who believes it, and is in fact harmful. It is harmful because one cannot repent if they don't take responsibility for their choices.
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@Athias
I am an Orthodox Catholic, technically we consider The Church of Rome to be in schism.
But we certainly do not practice idolatry. If you think our use of images is idolatry, I suggest you look into the iconoclast controversy and the 7th ecumenical council. I also recommend St John of Damascus' book of the use of holy images.
We don't pryay the rosary, but prayer ropes are not uncommon. The prayer we say is a bit simpler. "Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." The intent of the practice is to train in unceasing prayer, and inner hesychism(or stillness) of the heart and mind. The intent is to bring one closer to God, not farther away through idolatry.
Before Constantine ever lived, The Church referred to itself as Catholic, and the bishops who took part at the first council of Nicea were all legitimate leaders of the church. It is a protestant accusation against the church that it somehow was corrupted post-Constantine. It is not true, however, and it stands to reason that such an accusation is only leveled against the church to justify the existence of thousands of protestant denominations that are not in communion with The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
Whether this accusation is made in innocence or not, it is still inaccurate.
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@Athias
I would like to correct you there, Catholicism is Christianity. The Church referred to itself as Catholic centuries before Christianity was legal in Rome.
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@Stephen
We are not disputing the fact that Jesus went to see Lazarus.
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@disgusted
A book didn't create The Truth.
The Uncreated Pre-Eternal Truth is God.
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@Reece101
Before even the very first creation, The Way was established, and by it all things were made.
Walking in The Way requires a cooperation, so choice is involved necessarily.
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@disgusted
The God I worship is The Truth. The Truth is not created by man.
I know The Truth exists, and it is not sane to say other wise. Knowing The Truth exists is not the same as knowing The Truth.
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@Stephen
Considering they were a bunch of orgy throwing butt lovers who sacrificed children and destroyed the Earth through their gluttony and greed, the world is probably a better place without them.
Unless, you know, you like D sauce on your lamb chops and venereal diseases infecting your people.
Watch out America.
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@Stephen
I think you should read over everything again. You have no case, and I am not interested in enduring any vapid rhetoric or piss poor sophistry. This would be an inevitability were I to humor you with the hope that the position you hold is tenable.
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@disgusted
A lot of civilized, educated, and discerning people as well, Gus.
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@Stephen
It is not irrelevant at all, because it demonstrates your position is STUPID. Thankfully for you, that only makes you stupid if you are incapable of swallowing your pride and refuse to repent. To repent on the other hand, would show that you aren't a weakling and actually maybe even have some integrity. Nothing is gained from stubbornly clinging to folly.
Jesus obviously wanted to go to Bethany to see Lazarus.
Who might as well lived in Jerusalem where they were trying to kill Jesus, because it is a farther walk for me to go downtown from where I live, and Lazarus lived closer to Jerusalem than that.
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@disgusted
We know God by His Uncreated Divine energy which fills all things. This isn't knowing God's thoughts. It is discernment.
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@Stephen
When God became death, and rose again from the dead, the fulfillment of the scripture "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." Is revealed.
In becoming becoming death and showing that it had no hold over Him, Christ demonstrates that though evil men will work tirelessly to stamp out The Truth and anything that might lead people to it, in the end, you can't kill The Truth. It will rise again in the flesh, and that is why the gates of hell will truly never overcome The Church. Christ has already won.
So we sing the hymn "Christ is risen from the dead trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life."
Something you will never grasp the way you interpret scripture without The Holy Spirit is the mystagogy of our faith. You grope around in the dark in vain. The more your effort is concentrated in this way, the more time you will waste fruitlessly while sliding deeper and deeper into the depths of delusion.
It would be much better for you in every way if you humbled yourself and accepted guidance from the Apostolic Church.
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@Stephen
Bethany is in Judea, Stephan. It is literally on the other side of The mount of Olives from Jerusalem. It's hardly a half an hour walk.
Perhaps you should give up trying to be the teacher and accept guidance from the Holy Orders of the church.
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@disgusted
The Lord God spoke everything into existence, establishing it by His Word, and quickening it by His Breathe. God is One with his Word and Breathe. These 3 are The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity, One in essence and undivided.
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@disgusted
You claim that I make these claims. I make no such claims, as is plain for all to see. Quite the contrary, I openly confess that God's essence is unknowable. That being the case, I freely admit that I do not know God's thoughts, for truly they are higher than my thoughts.
However, God is present with us in the things that are made, and His Way can be discerned and walked in.
That is True Religion. To walk in The Way of God.
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@Reece101
The Way has always been established for us to walk in from the beginning.
Other ways are established by men or circumstance.
True religion is to walk in The Way. That is, to discern the wisdom of God and to abide in it.
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@Reece101
The Eternal Way existed before the the pagans. When the pagans deviated from The Eternal Way, apostles were sent to them to remind them of the Gospel of Salvation.
True Religion is not an invention of men, but a synergia with Divine Truth.
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@disgusted
The Holy Spirit which proceeds from The Unoriginate Absolute bears witness to The Incarnate Truth. These three are One in essence, The Eternally Existing One, The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
The One True God
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@disgusted
I know that God knows everything. It is not necessary to know what God knows.
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@disgusted
The Supreme and Ultimate Reality.
The Eternal Way.
The Spirit of Truth.
These are not the inventions of men, but The One True God who has always been, always is, and will forever be. It is the God that is with us.
The God I adore is The Uncreated, whom you can not discern from the created.
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@PressF4Respect
When you say, "the God of the bible" you are looking at the wrong thing. Instead you should say, "The God of The Church".
The Church is the body of Christ, and The Way is Universal, as Christ The Truth has dominion over all. The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God, and this is the witness of the prophets.
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@EtrnlVw
Truly, it is really more Orthodox to preach through example than proselytizing.
Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on me a sinner.
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@EtrnlVw
The Orthodox Church teaches The Eternal Way.
You do not know the Jesus I know.
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@EtrnlVw
Become a God lover not a religious thug/pusher.
We in the Orthodox Church actually agree with you on this.
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@EtrnlVw
All good religion points to Christ. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of not just the law and prophets of Judaism, but all true religion.
What do I claim about The Orthodox Church? That it is the historical church and that true and enlightened Christianity is present in the doctrine and mind of the church.
If you teach a different Christianity or a different Jesus, your position is heterodox, not orthodox.
The True Church is a Sacred Mystery with institutions, not an institution with sacred mysteries.
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